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Re: Questions about Internet Packet Losses
by William Allen Simpson 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

> From: Bob Metcalfe <metcalfe(a)infoworld.com> > Is Merit's packet loss data (NetNow) credible? The measurement needs more data points located inside other providers, but is pretty accurate regarding links into and out of the major NAPs. > Do packet losses in the > Internet now average between 2% and 4% daily? This is nothing new. In fact, it used to be much worse. Remember 1986? 1989? 1994? We've had pretty serious loss rates at times. > Are 30% packet losses common > during peak periods? I've personally measured 40% pretty regularly, and 80% at times. But it is much better now than a few years back. > Is there any evidence that Internet packet losses are > trending up or down? > Losses are on the rise again (past few months), but there was a downward trend during 1996 for my own connections. I specifically saw MCI and Sprint put in faster links last year, and add more private interconnects. Improved my life immensely. > Were Merit's data correct, what would be the impact of 30% packet losses on > opening up TCP connections? TCP will keep working. It's much harder on UDP, as the UDP applications often aren't very good on recovery. Lots of applications use UDP that should have used TCP. TCP is very robust. > On TCP throughput, say through a 28.8Kbps > modem? Compared to what? I remember using TCP pretty well over 300 bps and 1200 bps modems. Even at 28.8 Kbps, the delay in the modem swamps the delay of the net. > On Web throughput, since so many TCP connections are involved? The Web is actually a major source of the problem. It was not very well designed, protocol-wise. It causes rapid transient congestion. > On DNS look-ups? Yes, DNS uses UDP, and fails a lot more often. So, I just try again. > On email transport? SMTP uses TCP, and still works great. Neither delay nor packet loss are an issue. > How big a problem is HTTP's opening of so many TCP connections? It is a terrible problem. There is no time for the congestion and round trip estimation algorithms to kick in, as each connection is so short. But, HTTP is being fixed. > Does TCP > need to operate differently than it does now when confronted routinely with > 30% packet losses and quarter-second transit delays? No. It works fine. BTW, 1/4 second delays are not a problem; as I said earlier, this is actually better than we had when we developed the code, 2 second delays were typical in modems (576 byte payloads at 2400 bps). > What is the proper > response of an IP-based protocol, like TCP, as packet losses climb? Try > harder or back off or what? Exponential backoff. This is all well described by Van Jacobson nearly a decade ago. This kind of question is what makes folks think you haven't done your homework, Bob. > How robust are various widespread TCP/IP > implementations in the face of 30% packet loss and quarter-second transit > delays? > BSD 4.4 and derivatives work fine. Newer implementations with Sack work a bit better. Karn's KA9Q stack (used in many small enterprise routers and some MS-DOS hosts) is even more robust, as it was developed for amateur radio. High losses and high delay are typical in radio. FTP Software's stack seems to perform very well, and they update it regularly. MacTCP is terrible. And many early WWW servers and clients were Mac based, so they have terrible TCP characteristics. But, they still actually worked! But Apple replaced MacTCP last year with Open Transport, which works much better. Everyone should upgrade to MacOS 7.6. I've also had some problems with Win'95, and actually removed it and went back to Win 3.1. Since I gave up on it, I never really got to the bottom of why it was performing so badly. As an ISP, we actually charge more to setup folks with Win'95, while we charge nothing for Macs with Open Transport. Amazing difference in user support costs. I've noticed that there are a rather a lot of old SunOS systems out there. They don't have modern versions of TCP/IP, with MTU Discovery et cetera. But they should have been upgraded years ago, and are probably about to fall over anyway. > Is the Internet's sometimes bogging down due mainly to packet losses or > busy servers or what, or does the Internet not bog down? > Busy servers is the worst problem I've had in the past year. Much worse (more frequent) than the packet losses. > What fraction of Internet traffic still goes through public exchange points > and therefore sees these kinds of packet losses? What fraction of Internet > traffic originates and terminates within a single ISP? > >From personal experience at my clients, virtually all traffic is distributed across multiple providers. Hardly any is local. This has always been true of email, and is also true of WWW traffic. But as far as I know, there is no serious data available on internal versus external traffic of ISPs. In the ISP I partly own, most of the traffic is external. Where dial-up users POP their email from the server locally, the email still came via other providers to the server. > Where is the data on packet losses experienced by traffic that does not go > through public exchange points? > As far as I know, there is no data on how much traffic goes through public versus private exchange points. But, we should encourage more exchange points of every kind. > If 30% loss impacts are noticeable, what should be done to eliminate the > losses or reduce their impacts on Web performance and reliability? > The losses are noticable. What _should_ be done is fairly well known. We've been talking about it for years. I've been fairly active on the topic. Link speeds do not increase at the rate of Internet traffic. Merely making the links faster is doomed to fail. Routing performance will not increase at the rate of Internet traffic. Merely adding links between the same places is doomed to fail. Resource reservation on already congested links is doomed to fail. Resource reservation on many short flows is doomed to fail. We need providers to share faster links, such as inter-continental. By the very nature of Internet traffic multiplexing, it is better to share one bigger link than many smaller ones. Traffic shaping would ensure each provider getting their "fair share". We need more exchanges, both public and private. There should be one or more major public exchanges in every metropolitan area. Massive parallel inter-connections. More robust in the case of link failure and as backhoe protection. It's the only way we can scale at the rate of Internet traffic. Unfortunately, both these solutions require cooperation, which is in short supply. > Are packet losses due mainly to transient queue buffer overflows of user > traffic or to discards by overburdened routing processors or something else? > Most of the packet losses I see and have verified are _link_ underprovisioning! That is, providers have sold more subscriber connections than they can carry to other providers, and subscribers have bought links that are too small for the amount of traffic they generate. I've seen the provider version of the problem a lot more often than I've seen the subscriber problem. > What does Merit mean when they say that some of these losses are > intentional because of settlement issues? In some cases, the decision to keep the small congested link to other providers appears to be political and deliberate. > Are ISPs cooperating > intelligently in the carriage of Internet traffic, or are ISPs competing > destructively, to the detriment of them and their customers? > Major ISPs are not cooperating very well. Regional ISPs are doing a better job of cooperating. There are plenty of examples of both. WSimpson(a)UMich.edu Key fingerprint = 17 40 5E 67 15 6F 31 26 DD 0D B9 9B 6A 15 2C 32 BSimpson(a)MorningStar.com Key fingerprint = 2E 07 23 03 C5 62 70 D3 59 B1 4F 5E 1D C2 C1 A2

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Re: AS 6245 announces route for Internic?
by Paul Ferguson 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

At 03:48 PM 1/15/97 -0600, Chris A. Icide wrote: >I'm receiving announcements for Internic routes via AS 6245. Anyone >have any idea who this might be? It's a little difficult for me to get >contact information from rs.internic.net right now. > InterNIC Registration Services (ASN-INTERNIC) Network Solutions, Inc/SAIC 505 Huntmar Park Drive Herndon, VA 22070 Autonomous System Name: INTERNIC Autonomous System Number: 6245 Coordinator: Kosters, Mark A. (MAK21) markk(a)NETSOL.COM (703) 742-4795 (FAX) (703) 742-4811 Alternate Contact: Crichlow, Allwyn F., III [CSR] (AFC3) allwync(a)RS.INTERNIC.NET (703) 742-0400 ext. 891 (704) 742-4777 (FAX) (703) 742-4811 Record last updated on 01-Feb-96. The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. - paul >Yorktown>sho ip bgp 198.41.0.12 > >6082 6245, (aggregated by 6245 204.70.200.82), (Received from a RR-client) > 192.41.177.73 (metric 3) from 207.7.0.34 (207.112.248.129) > Origin IGP, localpref 100, valid, internal, atomic-aggregate, best > >Chris A. Icide >Nap.Net, L.L.C. >

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UUCP node name information search.
by Alan Clegg 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

I hate to do this, BUT... I am doing research for a court case that has pretty serious ramifications. See <http://www.gateway.com/release.htm> for more info. I am looking for proof (USENET postings, ancient maps, or even private e-mail) showing my use of the UUCP node name 'gateway' prior to 1989. Unfortunately, I do not have the 'original' submission for the registration of the node, and the current maps only show date of last update (1990 when gateway.com was registered). If anyone has documented use of the UUCP node name 'gateway' from that era, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let me know. Many thanks, -abc, offering a free 9-Track tape of 'mod.sources' dated 1987 to the person that finds the first proof. | Alan Clegg The Internet is not for sissies. [paul(a)vix.com] | Network Guy | gateway.com, inc.

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Re: PacBell
by Thomas Novak 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

Brian / Ted I called 415.542.9000. All I can say is give it a try and asked to be transferred to new lines section _Thomas >----- Begin Included Message -----< Brian Horvitz was caught stating: > > Does anybody have a good phone number for PacBell where I can get SMDS = > info? I'm in Boston and haven't had the pleasure of dealing with them = > yet so I figure I'll call the number on the web page...no good, all the = > 800 numbers I've found thus far are disconnected. Hey Brian, fancy meeting you here :) You can try PacBell's Frame Relay/SMDS Noc # - 800-870-9007 -- Ted Beatie ted(a)uu.net Systems Engineer ..uunet!ted UUNET Technologies, Inc., 3060 Williams Drive, Fairfax, VA 22031 "the number of people in the United States who would not recognize the phrase 'Beam me up, Scotty' is roughly comparable to the number of people who have never heard of ketchup." - Lawrence Krauss >----- End Included Message -----<

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RE: Info on MAE-EAST
by Danny Stroud 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

why don't you ask the people that run it--MFS? des ---------- From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu on behalf of Todd R. Stroup Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 1997 3:13 PM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Info on MAE-EAST Does anyone have any info on if MAE-EAST allows collocation of a 7507 now or is it still stated that the size has to be about the size of a 7010. Please return email direct to tstroup(a)fibernet.net Thanks. Todd R. Stroup Fiber Network Solutions, Inc.

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PacBell
by Brian Horvitz 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

Does anybody have a good phone number for PacBell where I can get SMDS info? I'm in Boston and haven't had the pleasure of dealing with them yet so I figure I'll call the number on the web page...no good, all the 800 numbers I've found thus far are disconnected. Brian Horvitz WebSecure, Inc.

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Re: Need help w/internet draft.
by Paul Ferguson 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

Tim's proposal is called "Classless Route Aggregation in Network Systems (CRANES)". His paper is located at: http://www.silkroad.com/papers/ - paul At 09:07 AM 1/15/97 -0700, Forrest W. Christian wrote: > >On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Paul Ferguson wrote: > >> This sounds amazingly like Tim Bass' proposal from last year. :-) > >Could youu point me towards the relevant proposal and any discussion >which took place on it? I've dug through nanog and cidrd for last year >with no avail. Do you know what timeframe we're talking about? > >-forrestc(a)imach.com > > >> >> - paul >> >> At 11:18 PM 1/14/97 -0700, Forrest W. Christian wrote: >> >> > >> >I've been working on an internet draft on using NAT techniques for >> >agreggating the core routing tables. >> > >> >I'm to the point that I need some assistance with general internet-draft >> >writing practices. I'm hoping that someone can point me in the right >> >direction or otherwise offer general assistance. The RFC's and other >> >docs on the registrar's web site are of little real use. >> > >> >Technical suggestions are also welcome. >> > >> >What I've got so far is up on the web at: >> > >> >http://www.mt.net/~forrestc/route.txt >> > >> >Another question I have is related to the appropriate forum(s) to discuss >> >this particular draft in. I have no desire to add greatly to the noise >> >level in non-relevant lists. >> > >> >-forrestc(a)imach.com >> > >> > >> > >> >

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Re: withdrawal propagation (was E.E. Times?)
by Paul Ferguson 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

At 03:01 AM 1/15/97 -0800, Tony Li wrote: > > Can you specify the bug/fix number for Cisco so we all can check to see > that we have it installed? > >I think that the engineering special build number would probably be more >relevant. ;-) As Ravi is out of cyberspace for a while (everyone >congratulate him when he gets back!), Paul, could you please do the honors? > CSCdi75464, integrated in 11.1(7)CA and 11.1(7.3) mainline. This is an optimization, not a bug fix, although I'm sure skeptics would subjectively argue otherwise. - paul

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Re: Need help w/internet draft.
by Paul Ferguson 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

This sounds amazingly like Tim Bass' proposal from last year. :-) - paul At 11:18 PM 1/14/97 -0700, Forrest W. Christian wrote: > >I've been working on an internet draft on using NAT techniques for >agreggating the core routing tables. > >I'm to the point that I need some assistance with general internet-draft >writing practices. I'm hoping that someone can point me in the right >direction or otherwise offer general assistance. The RFC's and other >docs on the registrar's web site are of little real use. > >Technical suggestions are also welcome. > >What I've got so far is up on the web at: > >http://www.mt.net/~forrestc/route.txt > >Another question I have is related to the appropriate forum(s) to discuss >this particular draft in. I have no desire to add greatly to the noise >level in non-relevant lists. > >-forrestc(a)imach.com > > >

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Re: Questions about Internet Packet Losses
by Sean Donelan 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

>I do not think any of them would kill the hen laying golden eggs. >The reality is that backbone ISPs are starting to turn out new >customers. There's always a lot of noise from those who just don't >get TANSTAAFL, though. Sigh, there are customers who would love to buy better service. But when we ask various providers what we, as customers, can do to get better service out of those networks, we're told by those providers their networks don't have any problems. If the problem doesn't involve the service provider, why would giving them more money make things better? If we believe what the providers have been saying, our money would be better spent elsewhere to improve service. Whatever the problems with MERIT's methods, they showed there were quantitive differences between different providers. What those differences really mean, and why they exist is open to debate or for academic types, a subject of further research. There are always a lot of noise from those who just don't believe those who say 'trust us' our network has zero loss. I'm from Missouri, Show Me. -- Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO Affiliation given for identification not representation

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