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Re: Just got on this thing (perhaps very belatedly) - root server trouble?
by John Todd 19 Feb '97

19 Feb '97

[data about ~30% of .com zones not backed by SOA records removed] <sthaug(a)nethelp.no> on 02/18/97 23:09 said: > > Karl Denninger <karl(a)Mcs.Net> on 02/18/97 18:59 said: > > > > This is a direct result of NSI accepting applications for domains, and > > listing them, without checking for authoritative SOA records before issuing > > the records in the COM zone! > > > > I'm apalled at these numbers. > > For once we agree. NSI should have stopped this practice long ago. You'll > be pleased to hear that there are other name registries (for instance the > one serving the "no" (Norway) TLD that actually perform this check. > > Note that checking when an application is received isn't really enough. > In Norway we run regular (monthly) checks of all the second-level domains > under "no", and we always find a number of name servers which have ceased > being authoritative in the time since last check. > > Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug(a)nethelp.no I couldn't agree more. There are any number of both political and technical reasons that the SOA should be checked on zones before they appear in any root nameservers, and it doesn't seem that large a task to prevent bogus zones from making it into the root nameservers. Why non-SOA zones shouldn't make it into the root nameservers: - lame zones are inherently broken; why allow brokeness to exist? - if it's not in the nameserver, the "owner" of the nameserver hasn't given explicit permission for it to be there (see below under "lawsuits") - filling the root nameservers with bad NS pointers only wastes time with timeout queries that stick around too long (not a big deal with people who have no data at all in either server, but what about zones that one of the nameservers is lame? That would cause the 5-10 second lag time for a "valid" zone when the "invalid" nameserver was asked abouft it.) - people who point secondary at non-SOA nameservers without telling the secondary that this is expected break not only themselves, but bring complaints against the innocent "secondary" provider who has complaints that "Your nameserver is broken!" How to prevent bogus SOA's: - before propogating the name into the roots, check for SOA - if SOA fails, then list the name in some sort of "Reserved" status, just like names that are pending payment, but make it possible for a name to remain in "Reserved" status forever (see "lawsuits-2" below) - if initial SOA test fails, check SOA every X number of days until valid. - every X number of months, check to ensure SOA is still present in listed nameservers. - If invalid, wait another Y days, and try again. After Z iterations of failures, pull the NS pointers and list the zone as "Reserved" for XX number of days or until someone calls in and whines, at which point check SOA by hand. Diatribe: There have been occasions where persons have sent in top-level domain registrations with nameservers listed as secondary that had _nothing_ to do with the primary, and had never even heard of the primary. If foo.com wanted to point their secondary at any particular nameserver (or even a random IP address!) there is nothing that anyone can do to prevent them. Suddenly, an innocent bystanding nameserver admin starts getting flames from SPAM victims and other sundry folk simply because their name happens to be in the NS list for that zone. I also hate trying to dig around (no pun intended) to find if there is any information at all that is valid for a zone, if the old ISP is still in business, if that network just isn't visible from where I am, etc. I am involved with a lot of transfers, and I'd rather know that the old nameservers are just non-existant rather than trying to sleuth things down. Lawsuits: Imagine that the domain "humongouscompany.com" is registered with ns.bigprovider.com and ns2.bigprovider.com. Recently angered by the current sale of routers in China by Humongouscompany, and _equally_ angered at the recent banning of his IP address from smallprovider.com's IRC server, a clever hacker spoofs an email message from the admin contact at humongouscompany.com and requests that the nameservice be moved from [ns,ns2].bigprovider.com and pointed at [ns,ns2].smallprovider.com. The next root nameserver reboot, humongouscompany.com is out of luck, as there are no records in place for that zone in [ns,ns2].smallprovider.com's nameservers. Smallprovider is completely innocent here, but guess who gets slammed in that morning's TechWizDaily? Lawsuits-2: Well, a good argument has been made that "if an SOA is required, then there is criteria for getting added to the root nameserver, and the NIC has to be impartial and take all comers who have the $100 to register." OK, no problem. Just register the name, make it impossible for anyone else to take that particular combination of letters/numbers, but don't point the zone anywhere. Summary: These ideas have been floated past some of the registration managment at the InterNIC, and hopefully they'll take this into consideration. This would prevent the 30% attrition that Karl reports that he's discovered. Any comments? Does anyone else feel that the NIC should go back to checking SOA's with the addition of an additional "no-SOA" or "Reserved" status? JT --- John Todd jtodd(a)fox-den.com

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Re: Unsubstantiated Rumor - this is not simply about RBOC ISP Tariff
by salo＠msc.edu 18 Feb '97

18 Feb '97

> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:13:21 -0800 (PST) > From: David Holub <david(a)hooked.net> > To: Tim Salo <salo(a)msc.edu> > Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: Re: Unsubstantiated Rumor - this is not simply about RBOC ISP Tariff > [...] > I'm very aware of what a "telecommunications carrier" is and without boring > you with the details I'm also very secure in Whole Earth Networks ability to > fall under that definition. ... One interesting attribute of telecommunications carriers is that they all seem to have big legal departments. Be careful what you wish for... -tjs [By the way, given the number of people who want someone to regulate some aspect of the Internet, I suspect that we will see the day when all ISPs have lawyers. On the other hand, it doesn't make much sense to me to try to hasten the arrival of this era.]

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Re: Just got on this thing (perhaps very belatedly) - root server trouble?
by salo＠msc.edu 18 Feb '97

18 Feb '97

From: Karl Denninger <karl(a)Mcs.Net> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 15:29:33 -0600 (CST) > About 30% of the nameservers which supposedly > are authoritative for .COM domains are either: > 1) Non-existant (they don't resolve to an IP address) > 2) Unreachable > or 3) Don't know what "." is (!) This might say more about the status of Internet reachability at a particular point time and/or from a particular place in the Internet. This exercise doesn't seem like particularly good science... -tjs

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URLs presented in the talks at NANOG9
by Stan Barber 18 Feb '97

18 Feb '97

Here are the various URLs I have collected as a result of the talks at NANOG 9. If you were a speaker and you don't see a URL listed here, then I don't have it. Please send it to me as soon as you can. I also have hard copy from Steve Feldman, Bill Manning and WeeSan Lee, but if you folks have URLs for me, that would be great. Alternatively, you can mime-mail me your slides. I accept most anything including PowerPoint and Postscript. Thanks Steve Corbato - http://weber.u.washington.edu/~corbato/nanog-sf Dave Meyer - http://ns.oregon.edu/~meyer/I2 Mark Kosters - http://rs.internic.net/presentations/marrk/nanog9702.html Randy Bush - http://psg.com/~randy/970210.nanog Curtis Villamizar - ftp://engr.ans.net/pub/slides/nanog/feb-1997/tcp*.ps

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lbnamed
by Jim Fleming 18 Feb '97

18 Feb '97

By the way, if NANOG people are interested in learning more about building your own name servers you might want to go to Yahoo and type "lbnamed". That stands for load balancing "named". You will probably locate a reference to... http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~schemers/docs/lbnamed/lbnamed.html With that code, you should be able to build your own TRUE Root Name Server in a day or two. Have fun... -- Jim Fleming Unir Corporation e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net JimFleming(a)unety.s0.g0 (EDNS/IPv8)

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RE: Just got on this thing (perhaps very belatedly) - root server trouble?
by Jim Fleming 18 Feb '97

18 Feb '97

On Tuesday, February 18, 1997 3:09 PM, Jeffrey C. Ollie[SMTP:jeff@ollie.clive.ia.us] wrote: @ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- @ @ On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 13:01:06 -0600 (CST), karl(a)mcs.net writes: @ > @ >In fact, our solution has you *SECONDARYING* ".", which means that in @ >general, other than the requirement for you to be able to reach a source for @ >that file on a every-few-days basis (to check the SOA record) you no longer @ >NEED connectivity to the root domain. @ > @ >This is demonstrably superior; you no longer need to make that query for @ >".", as you already know who is authoritative for all the TLDs under ".". @ @ Yiiii... Having everyone secondary "." sounds demonstrably inferior to @ me. Just think what would happen if every nameserver that is @ authoritative for a .com domain started secondarying ".". There are @ approximately 50,000 name servers that are authoritative for .com @ (according to the .com zone file from the InterNIC). That would mean @ that the system ROOT-NS.MCS.NET would waste around 5 queries per @ second because those 50,000 name servers would be trying to check the @ SOA (at the time that I write this, the eDNS servers list a 3 *hour* @ refresh interval for the root zone with a 15 *minute* retry @ interval). Just think what will happen to poor ROOT-NS.MCS.NET when @ the serial number changes! @ There are really two approaches being used. Actually three if you include the current InterNIC approach of allowing some TLDs (like .COM, .NET, etc.) to be served from the Root Name Server. The two approaches could be called: 1. Secondarying 2. TRUE Root In both approaches you might want to keep in mind that the objective is to create a Root Name Server (i.e. a server for servers) as opposed to a standard ISP Name Server or a TLD Name Server that might be found in a TLD registry operation. In the first approach, Secondarying, a Root Name Server is created by taking a rather standard ISP Name Server and pulling in (via the secodarying of ".") a rather static base of information about the location of the TLD Name Servers. There are several benefits to this approach: 1. People can easily reconfigure an existing server to do this as well as other name services. 2. The zone transfer features can be used to make the update of "." easy from some central coordinator. 3. As Karl has pointed out, you mostly run with better performance because you have pulled a view of the entire TLD world in and periodically get it updated. The disadvantages are mostly philosophical in that this type of Root Name Server can end up being a jack of all trades and a master of too much or none depending on how you view it. Keep in mind that as a Root Name Server it still can be used to serve ISP Name Servers which was the objective. The second approach (TRUE Root) takes a purists view of a Root Name Server and only TLD Name Server referral information is hosted on the machine. Queries that make their way to this type of server are easily handled. A query about a .COM domain name is answered with only information on where the .COM TLD Name Servers can be found. There are several benefits to this approach: 1. The software for this type of name server is trivial and can be made to be very efficient. The role of this server is very bounded and therefore cumbersome "named" software with years of whistles and bells is not required. We have written two versions of "named" for such a server and each took little effort. One is in Perl and the other is in C. The flag-ship version will of course be in C+@. 2. The administration and operations can be made to be more robust again because the server plays a limited role and therefore there is no way that an administrator can turn this type of server into a complex multi-role server as seen today on the legacy Root Name Servers. 3. This type of server can be easily scaled and generally has very little load because it serves ISP Name Servers and they rarely need to relocate the high runner TLD Name Servers that do not move that often, especially .COM, .NET, etc. The major disadvantage of this type of server is the added cost and the fact that it makes the most sense isolated on a bullet-proof machine. Many ISPs do not have the luxury of having spare machines to throw at such problems as an experiment. The InterNIC of course just deployed 4 such machines but they have $8,000,000 per month in domain registrations to help pay for gear. In my opinion, it is good for NANOG members to understand all of the ins and out of the DNS and the various ways to configure name servers. It is not productive for people to continue to tell people that only certain individuals can understand what really amounts to a protocol and a data base and some rather trivial software to make it all work. I hope these notes help NANOG members as well as other people experimenting with the AlterNIC, Root 64, Root 128, or even the new IANA TRUE Root Name Servers....:-) -- Jim Fleming Unir Corporation e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net JimFleming(a)unety.s0.g0 (EDNS/IPv8)

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RE: F means filtered ?
by Jim Fleming 18 Feb '97

18 Feb '97

On Tuesday, February 18, 1997 7:07 AM, Karl Denninger[SMTP:karl@Mcs.Net] wrote: @ > @ > > I think actually the question that Jim was asking is whether Paul filters @ > > access to the root name server he runs based on his Spam Blacklist. It @ > > seems to be a valid question. @ @ Paul wrote: @ @ > Yes, I do. I have no opinion on whether spammers should or should not be @ > able to reach any given root name server, including "mine", but for the time @ > being I lack the hardware needed to firewall f.root-servers.net differently @ > than I do the rest of my network. @ @ Uh, that is a serious issue. @ @ If you filter the root server that you run according to your "spam list", @ then you are not providing a public service on equal footing to all comers. @ @ I dislike spam and UCE as much as the next person, but I find this kind of @ policy statement and implementation abhorrent when you're talking about a @ *public* resource. @ @ If you wish to do that its fine with me, but then F.root-servers.net needs @ to be replaced by a machine which is not subject to these filters. @ @ Root servers aren't private things, expecially when you hold them out to the @ public... @ @ -- @ -- @ Karl Denninger (karl(a)MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity @ http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service @ | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo @ Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info(a)mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ @ Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal @ @ Karl, Your points about private and public Root Name Servers are important for people to understand, even if they do not know how DNS works. As confirmed on this NANOG mailing list, the North American operators follow the U.S. Government's lead and use the list of Root Name Servers prepared and published by the National Science Foundation and distributed by the NSF's InterNIC. In the past, the NSF relied on volunteers to provide Root Name Servers. This is rapidly changing and Network Solutions, Inc. and the IANA recently installed 4 new TRUE Root Name Servers. The IANA and NSI are of course controlled by the NSF and there is still one year left on the NSF/NSI contract. If private individuals are allowed to make decisions about who obtains services and who does not, then the U.S. Government is responsible for those decisions if the government has endorsed (or paid) those private individuals to be the decision makers. Several people have assured me that all of these problems are being solved. I suggest that we let the proper agencies solve the problems. -- Jim Fleming Unir Corporation e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net JimFleming(a)unety.s0.g0 (EDNS/IPv8)

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RE: New Root Name Servers
by Jim Fleming 18 Feb '97

18 Feb '97

On Monday, February 17, 1997 8:56 AM, Robert E. Seastrom[SMTP:rs@bifrost.seastrom.com] wrote: @ @ I have J and K in my named.ca file, but not L and M. It is reasonable @ to assume that they are not available for public use yet, as they are @ not listed in the currently-available named.root file available from @ the InterNIC. @ By the way, are you mixing TRUE Root Name Servers with legacy Root Name Servers in your root.cache ? Also, is it possible that the recent problems NANOG people have been discussing regarding Root Name Servers is really the result of these transitions to TRUE Root Name Servers ? -- Jim Fleming Unir Corporation e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net JimFleming(a)unety.s0.g0 (EDNS/IPv8)

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RE: Just got on this thing (perhaps very belatedly) - root server trouble?
by Jim Fleming 18 Feb '97

18 Feb '97

On Tuesday, February 18, 1997 12:40 PM, Paul A Vixie[SMTP:paul@vix.com] wrote: @ > BTW, there are 2010-complient roots going in. And, if you secondary root @ > from us, you'll get that update automatically when it happens..... @ @ And, if you secondary "." from MCS, you will get data that only a small @ fraction of the net sees, and it will conflict with data that large portions @ of the net see, and it will conflict with other petty fiefdoms run by other @ provincial wannabes who think that THEY and not MCS ought to run/own ".". @ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- @ This is the Newdom mailing list, newdom(a)vrx.net. To subscribe or @ unsubscribe or get help , send the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" or @ "help" in the body (not subject) to newdom-request(a)vrx.net @ @ Folks, please face the facts. The U.S. Government controls the Internet. It has always been that way and it will likely always be that way. It is a resource that many people depend on and businesses are investing because of the stability, security, and opportunities that the U.S. Government provides. If you want to assemble a real "Blue Ribbon Panel" that represents the real Internet society, I suggest that you start with some or all of the people below. These are the people who control the popular Root Name Servers and are the people mandated by the people to "do the right thing". They are also some of the people supported by U.S. taxpayers dollars to make sure that federal government resources such as the Root Name Servers are used properly according to the laws in the United States. We are rapidly approaching March 1, 1997. There will be one year left on the InterNIC agreements developed by the National Science Foundation (NSF). Everyone needs to work together to make sure that those agreements remain stable for one more year and that plans are made to ensure that any transitions are smooth and do not impact the stability of the Internet. The current attempts to fragment the InterNIC are not in the best interest of the Internet. Instead, the InterNIC should be kept in tact and used as an educational model to help create additional "NICs" across the United States to spread the wealth and jobs around and to ensure better stability via distributed management. I have suggested that the NSF use the $12.6 million to help launch 49 additional NICs, one in each state except for Virginia. By March of 1998, hopefully enough NICs will be operational to allow the current InterNIC as we know it to take its place with the others as a state NIC controlled by the people of Virginia. Many people have worked hard over the past couple of years to demonstrate that cooperating and competing regional NICs can coexist. The technology is well understood and with the stewardship of some or all of the people below, I am confident that the original NSF plan to expand the NICs can be accomplished by the time the NSF agreements with AT&T and Network Solutions, Inc. end. In order to get the regional NICs up to speed, I suggest that states follow the NSF InterNIC model and "ousource" the work to regional companies that have demonstrated their expertise in not only Internet technology but also the emerging registry industry. I suggest that these companies work with their state governments to gain support to work with the elected officials below to get things moving. There is only one year left. Time is getting short. Rather than have anyone rush into dismantling the InterNIC why not join together to clone the InterNIC, not once, but at least 49 times to help the Internet grow. Once this is demonstrated, then obviously the lessons learned will help fuel international growth. No one will be left out. If other countries want to join in this effort, I suggest that they follow a similar plan. Think global but start local. It is the only way that you will make any real progress. I am sure that many people in the U.S. will be glad to lend a hand to get things moving. Hopefully, there will be many examples and more educational programs developed as these efforts unfold. There is no reason why anyone should be left out but there is also no reason why people should hold back waiting for people to catch up. With the clock ticking and $12.6 million in the bank, it is time to duplicate the prototype in Virginia in every state and each country. It is not time to dismantle the prototype. If that occurs then much of the knowledge will be lost and the money the U.S. taxpayers spent to build the InterNIC will be wasted. Again, the following people have the mandate of the people to make sure that money and the efforts are not wasted. They work daily to maximize the return on the taxpayer's investment. Let them know that you want to work with them to make sure you also benefit from those efforts in your states and countries. Thank you for your time... @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore http://www.whitehouse.gov National Science Board (NSB) http://www.nsf.gov/nsb/nsb.htm The NSB has dual responsibilities as: . National science policy advisor to the President and the Congress . Governing body for the National Science Foundation Chairman NSB - Dr. Richard N. Zare, Stanford University rnz(a)chemistry.stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/group/Zarelab/ Office of Inspector General of the NSF (also links to Congress) http://www.nsf.gov/oig/oig.htm Inspector General - Linda G. Sundro - lsundro(a)nsf.gov Investigator - Clara Kuehn - ckuehn(a)nsf.gov National Science Foundation Neal Lane - nlane(a)nsf.gov <http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/forum/lane/quscipol.htm> Juris Hartmanis - jhartman(a)nsf.gov <http://www.cise.nsf.gov/oad/jhartman.html> George Strawn - gstrawn(a)nsf.gov <http://www.cise.nsf.gov/ncri/Georgehome.html> Don Mitchell - dmitchel(a)nsf.gov <http://www.cise.nsf.gov/ncri/Donhome.html> ===== @@@@@ http://www.fnc.gov/mission.html "The FNC supports the goals of the CIC, particularly those related to building the national information infrastructure (NII). It also seeks to address Federal technology transition goals and allow the operational experiences of FNC agencies to influence future Federal research agendas. It also contributes funds to important Internet infrastructure organizations, such as the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), Internet Assigned Number Authority (IANA), and the Computer Emergency Response Team (CERT)." @@@@@ http://www.fnc.gov/FNC_Members.html Federal Networking Council George Strawn - Chairman GSTRAWN(a)NSF.GOV Walter Wiebe - Executive Director WWIEBE(a)NSF.GOV Bruce Almich ALMICH.BRUCE(a)EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV Bruce Bottomley BBB(a)ROMULUS.NCSC.MIL Dick desJardins DESJARDI(a)EOS.NASA.GOV Frank Hartel HARTEL(a)BOX-H.NIH.GOV Craig Hunt CHUNT(a)NIST.GOV Pamela G. Kruzic PJK(a)NRC.GOV Henry Lai HENRY.LAI(a)GSA.GOV Fred Lee FLEE(a)NSF.GOV Fred Long FLONG(a)SUN1.WWB.NOAA.GOV Hilarie Orman HORMAN(a)DARPA.MIL Camillo J. Pasquariello PASQUARC(a)NCR.DISA.MIL Alexis Poliakoff ALEX_POLIAKOFF(a)ED.GOV Ken Roko KROKO(a)USAID.GOV Elaine Stout ESTOUT(a)USGS.GOV @@@@@ http://www.fnc.gov/FNCAC.html The Federal Networking Council Advisory Committee (FNCAC) is chartered by the National Science Foundation to provide the FNC with technical, tactical, and strategic advice from the constituencies involved in the NREN Program..." FNCAC Members Dr. Sidney Karin KARIN(a)SDSC.EDU Dr. George Brandenburg BRANDENBURG(a)HUHEPL.HARVARD.EDU Dr. Henriette Avram AVRAM(a)IVORY.EDUCOM.EDU Mr. Jim Beall, Jr. BEALL(a)VNET.IBM.COM Mr. Alan Blatecky ALANB(a)MCNC.ORG Mr. Matt Blaze MAB(a)RESEARCH.ATT.COM Ms. Susan Estrada SESTRADA(a)ALDEA.COM Dr. Kenneth S. Flamm FLAMM(a)BROOK.EDU Dr. John Gage JOHN.GAGE(a)ENG.SUN.COM Ms. Carol Henderson CCH(a)ALAWASH.ORG Dr. Kenneth J. Klingenstein KJK(a)SPOT.COLORADO.EDU Mr. Richard Liebhaber 2714743(a)MCIMAIL.COM Mr. Stu Loken SCLOKEN(a)LBL.GOV Dr. Paul Mockapetris PVM(a)SOFTWARE.COM Mr. Robert G. Moskowitz RGM3(a)IS.CHRYSLER.COM Dr. Ike Nassi NASSI(a)SCRUZNET.COM Mr. Carl Edward Oliver OLIVERCE(a)ORNL.GOV Dr. Stewart Personick SDP(a)BELLCORE.COM Mr. Thomas C. Rindfleisch THOMAS_RINDFLEISCH(a)MEDMAIL.STANFORD.EDU. Mr. Mike Roberts ROBERTS(a)EDUCOM.EDU Ms. Connie D. Stout CSTOUT(a)TENET.EDU Brigadier General Harold Thompson THOMPSON(a)ICN.STATE.IA.US Dr. Stephen Wolff SWOLFF(a)CISCO.COM @@@@@ U.S. Senate e-mail addresses Alabama - Shelby, Richard C. (R) - senator(a)shelby.senate.gov Alaska - Stevens, Ted (R) - senator_stevens(a)stevens.senate.gov Arizona - Kyl, Jon (R) - info(a)kyl.senate.gov Arizona - McCain, John (R) - senator_mccain(a)mccain.senate.gov Arkansas - Bumpers, Dale (D) - senator(a)bumpers.senate.gov Arkansas - Hutchinson, Tim (D) - senator.hutchinson(a)hutchinson.senate.gov California - Boxer, Barbara (D) - senator(a)boxer.senate.gov California - Feinstein, Dianne (D) - senator(a)feinstein.senate.gov Connecticut - Dodd, Christopher J. 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Address of Westin building in Seattle?
by ALAN DORN HETZEL JR 18 Feb '97

18 Feb '97

Does anybody have this address and/or prefix handy? Thanks! -Dorn

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