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Re: Another UUNET Explanation
by smd＠clock.org 02 Jul '97

02 Jul '97

Alex Rubenstein <alex(a)nac.net> writes: > Frame Relay allows yout he ability to psuedo-directly connection various > pop's together, and gives that clean appearance of a 'no-hop' back bone. > Why route when you can switch? Please explain this last line to me. Consider a flat network, where each router has a connection (virtual or otherwise) to every other router in the network. An IP datagram arrives at one of the routers. What happens now? A clumsy tech or a backhoe takes out a physical path between two POPs, each of which contains several routers that form part of this flat network. What happens now? A bug partitions the FR fabric, making a few VCs go away. What happens now? A new route is announced to one of the routers in the flat network. What happens now? (You may wish to consider it both as a route carried in some sort of IGP and a route learned from eBGP) Now unflatten the network so there is a maximally hierarchical network (the opposite of a flat network), in which only routers topologically adjacent to each other have any form of circuit-like connectivity. Go back and walk through my list of questions, paying particular attention to the issues involved in changes in IP reachability. Now, for even more fun, consider variances in delay thanks to the speed of light in copper & fibre. Consider what happens when IP reachability changes as traffic is being sent towards the changing destination(s). Finally, pretend you work for a large network that combines FR switches and routers and which is taking it in the shorts for some reason, and fix the problem so that I can get from home to cesium.clock.org without frequent long pauses. Sean. (hi Noel)

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RE: Another UUNET Explanation
by Chris A. Icide 02 Jul '97

02 Jul '97

---------- From: Sean M. Doran[SMTP:smd@clock.org] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 10:21 PM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Another UUNET Explanation A clumsy tech or a backhoe takes out a physical path between two POPs, each of which contains several routers that form part of this flat network. What happens now? Layer 2 heals itself, without the knowledge of layer 3. Layer 3 experiences a latency increase between certain paths. Sorry, had to do it. *duck* However, I agree wholeheartedly. If I had a Layer 2 protocol designed solely for the transport of a protocol to end all protocols, perhaps I would choose to use it, however, in this fast paced industry, will we ever have the "perfect" protocol (okay, ever is a big word). I suspect that as long as there is some value in making the "network" do something it wasn't originally designed to do, someone will hack a way to do it, and rake in some money. That money will draw other people to into either parroting the pioneer, or hacking thier own way, or perhaps denouncing the hack as un-pure. It's a never-ending circle, hacker, parrot, purist? Rwaaah, Cracker wants a Polly! (polly always gets the cracker) Chris A. Icide Nap.Net, L.L.C.

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RE: Another UUNET Explanation
by Chad Skidmore 02 Jul '97

02 Jul '97

The difference is that they own the Frame Relay network and can control provisioning etc. Your experience with Frame Relay has been colored by the fact that your Telco is in control of the Frame Relay "Cloud". As several others have stated in the list here UUNET is using it to aggregate users into POP routers and to switch packets across the backbone as much as possible and route only when necessary. The problems they seem to be having now are due (possibly) to some problems with the software in the BSTDX switches and probably their own success. It is pretty tough to grow a network like theirs quickly enough to keep up with the overall growth of the Internet without some problems. That said I hope they get it fixed soon. They were, at one time, our best provider and they have slipped to our worst. ------------------------------------------ Chad Skidmore VP Operations & Engineering Data Source, L.L.C. http://www.dsource.com cskidmore(a)dsource.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe McGuckin [SMTP:joe@via.net] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 4:34 PM > To: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: Re: Another UUNET Explanation > > > I've noticed that several of the larger networks use frame-relay. > > Why? Our experience with frame-relay with the local telco has had > mixed results. > > What technical advantages does a frame-relay network have over an > IP routed network? > > Thanks! > > Joe

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Re: Another UUNET Explanation
by jprovo＠ma.ultranet.com 02 Jul '97

02 Jul '97

>Here is a message that we received from UUNET today. It seems that they >are full of various explanations. [snip] That answer is consistant with previous experiences in the Boston area. Cheers, -- Joe Provo, Network Architect 800.763.8111 x3006 Network Operations Center Fax 508.229.2375 UltraNet Communications, Inc. <jprovo(a)ultra.net>

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Re: Plethora of UUnet outages and instabilities
by Alex Rubenstein 02 Jul '97

02 Jul '97

All I know is they suck moose nipples, and I disconnected from them last week. They have been having problems in/around cr1.nyc1 for MONTHS now, and they are doing nothing (that I can see) to fix it. Thier first-level support is horrendous. One guy once said to me, "Routers have processors?!". Another hung up when I told him to put "CUSTOMER IS IRATE" on the trouble ticket. There are some GOOD guys over there, but them seem to be disappearing? (are you there, Mr. Hannan?) HELLO, GENUITY (anyone who is looking for a new provider, Genuity is DAMN good. and a DAMN good NOC. Sales guys are a little whacky, tho). At 02:12 PM 6/30/97 -0700, Josh Beck wrote: >Has everyone else been seeing the almost daily UUnet outages recently, >does anyone know what the true causes of these have been? --- "Don't go with a spineless ISP; we have more backbone." Alex Rubenstein -- alex(a)nac.net -- KC2BUO -- www.nac.net net @ccess corporation, 201-983-0725 -- 201-983-0725

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Re: Keynote/Boardwatch Internet Backbone Index A better test!!!
by Jack Rickard 01 Jul '97

01 Jul '97

This assumes that you consider web server location and web server performance to NOT be a part of overall network performance. Our view steps back a bit from that. The majority of traffic would appear to be webcentric. From an end users perspective, what does a web site on a specific network look like and how does that compare to a web site on another network? There are ENDLESS variables contributing to that including intercity links, hub architecture, host hardware, host software, peering, connectivity points with other networks, transit agreements, type of routers, ATM switching (or not). All contribute. We think most people notice Internet performance (or lack thereof) while viewing world wide web pages. If we measure such page transits, the results are indicative of the accumulation of ALL of those factors. The web sites chosen were on the network under study, operated by the network, and under their control. They have total control over the hardware and software used, how it is connected to their network, just as they have control over all other aspects of their networks. Does web server performance affect the results? I would hope so. Can we break it down into what is purely web server hardware performance, what is web server software performance, what is NIC card on the web server, what is the impact of the first router the web server is connected to, what is the impact of hub design and the interface between IP routing and ATM switching, what part is the impact of interconnections with other networks, what part is peering, what part is just goofy router games? Uh,,, NO we can't. I would posit that it is only the network engineers at the heart of this that would or should care. I don't know at this point what portion of the equation can be levied on web servers and I don't think anyone else can either. I have held for several years that the performance breakdown is in the "last inch" of the Internet between the drive controller and the disk surface. But in working with Keynote, I generated the broad theory that if that view held true, then by massively averaging measurements across time and geography, we should flatline the Internet. In other words, all results should factor to zero relatively. They didn't. They didn't to a shocking degree. And at this point I am under the broad assumption that server performance doesn't account for all of it, perhaps little of it. But I could be widely wrong on the entire initial assumption. In any event, the networks have total control and responsibility for their own web servers, much as they do for their own network if you define that as something separate from their networks. We measured web page downloads from an end user perspective, and those are the results in aggregate. If it leads to a flurry of web server upgrades, and that moves the numbers, we'll know more than we did. If it leads to a flurry of web server upgrades, and it FAILS to move the numbers, that will tell us something as well. Our broad theory is that nothing is going to improve as long as anything you do doesn't count and is not detectable by anyone anywhere. If a particular network can move their results in any fashion, that is an improvement in the end user experience, however achieved. Warmest Regards; Jack Rickard =================================================================== Jack Rickard Boardwatch Magazine Editor/Publisher 8500 West Bowles Ave., Ste. 210 jack.rickard(a)boardwatch.com Littleton, CO 80123 www.boardwatch.com Voice: (303)973-6038 =================================================================== ---------- > From: Craig A. Huegen <c-huegen(a)quadrunner.com> > To: Jack Rickard <jack.rickard(a)boardwatch.com> > Cc: Peter Cole <Peter.Cole(a)telescan.com>; nanog(a)merit.edu; marketing(a)keynote.com > Subject: Re: Keynote/Boardwatch Internet Backbone Index A better test!!! > Date: Friday, June 27, 1997 2:08 PM > > On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Jack Rickard wrote: > > ==>Not an entirely whacky concept actually. The way hot potato routing works, > ==>this could actually be a "purer" test I suspect of the network internally > ==>and a purer test of connectivity of any network to all others cum Internet. > > The article says that you're measuring backbone provider performance, yet > you're including: > > * carrier's web server location > * carrier's web server performance > > ==>Keynote does a "Top 40" study of 40 popular web sites and I believe they > ==>make the results available on their web site. It is interesting to observe > ==>performance variations of the network as a whole over time. Other than > ==>that, we don't have much interest in it. It is indicative of no specific > ==>network, but of the Internet in general. > > /cah

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Another UUNET Explanation
by Chad Skidmore 01 Jul '97

01 Jul '97

Here is a message that we received from UUNET today. It seems that they are full of various explanations. July 01, 1997 Dear UUNET Customer, Please accept our apologies if you have experienced any service interruptions over the past 24 hours. The cause of these problems has been traced to a software defect within our Cascade Frame Relay network. UUNET is working closely with Cascade to fully understand the cause and effects of these problems and is in the process of identifying a permanent fix. This may include rapidly deploying new software into the network. We will provide periodic updates throughout the day as further information becomes available. Routing instabilities may continue at a diminished capacity over the next 24-48 hours as switches receive updates. Thank you for your patience during this period. Again, we apologize for any inconvenience which these outages may have caused you or your customers. Sincerely, UUNET Technologies, Inc. ------------------------------------------ Chad Skidmore VP Operations & Engineering Data Source, L.L.C. http://www.dsource.com cskidmore(a)dsource.com

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A good one from the UUnet NOC
by Josh Beck 01 Jul '97

01 Jul '97

Here is UUnet's latest response: apparently they've suffered massive congestion and an impacted network in about 10 minutes! That's a good sales team! Apparently they got their OC-12 network installed ahead of schedule as well, as we are finally back to normal: Type escape sequence to abort. Tracing the route to drawbridge.ascend.com (198.4.92.1) 1 520.Hssi8-0.GW1.SDG1.ALTER.NET (137.39.132.5) 4 msec 575.Hssi3-0.GW1.SDG1.ALTER.NET (157.130.224.17) 20 msec 520.Hssi8-0.GW1.SDG1.ALTER.NET (137.39.132.5) 8 msec 2 114.Hssi4-0.CR1.LAX1.Alter.Net (137.39.31.41) 16 msec 8 msec 8 msec 3 111.Hssi8-0.CR1.SCL1.Alter.Net (137.39.30.213) 28 msec 104 msec 20 msec 4 311.atm1-0.gw1.scl1.alter.net (137.39.13.149) 80 msec 60 msec 24 msec 5 external-gw.ascend.com (198.4.92.2) [AS 701] 48 msec 28 msec 40 msec 6 drawbridge.ascend.com (198.4.92.1) [AS 701] 36 msec 52 msec 32 msec Forwarded message follows: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:47:05 -0400 (EDT) From: UUNET Customer Liaison <help(a)UU.NET> To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Subject: Re: Customer #UXXXXX (UUXXXXXX) Please do not take the (UUxxxxxx) information out of the subject header when replying to this problem. We use this number to track specific customer issues. Thank you. The latency you are experiencing in the Bay area is being addressed in the next few months with an OC12 network. This will provide increased bandwidth and alleviate some congestion. Thanks, Steve Williams UUNET Network Support > > > We are seeing high latency on the west coast. Your NOC page states the > problems are only on the east coast : > > Type escape sequence to abort. > Tracing the route to drawbridge.ascend.com (198.4.92.1) > > 1 520.Hssi8-0.GW1.SDG1.ALTER.NET (137.39.132.5) 4 msec > 575.Hssi3-0.GW1.SDG1.ALTER.NET (157.130.224.17) 4 msec > 520.Hssi8-0.GW1.SDG1.ALTER.NET (137.39.132.5) 4 msec > 2 114.Hssi3-0.CR2.PHX1.Alter.Net (137.39.69.57) 28 msec 44 msec 32 msec > 3 122.Hssi8-0.CR2.SCL1.Alter.Net (137.39.68.130) 256 msec 272 msec 256 > msec > 4 412.atm11-0.gw1.scl1.alter.net (137.39.13.165) 272 msec 276 msec 288 > msec > 5 external-gw.ascend.com (198.4.92.2) [AS 701] 280 msec 296 msec 284 > msec > 6 drawbridge.ascend.com (198.4.92.1) [AS 701] 256 msec 248 msec 268 msec > Josh Beck jbeck(a)connectnet.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CONNECTNet INS, Inc. Phone: (619)450-0254 Fax: (619)450-3216 6370 Lusk Blvd., Suite F-208 San Diego, CA 92121 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Legal Question
by Carl Oppedahl 01 Jul '97

01 Jul '97

At 08:33 AM 07/01/97 -0700, Scott Reubelt wrote: >May not be for this alias but I need to ask. > >I have an ISP that may be guilty of receiving copies of everyone's >emails associated with the ISP. What can be done legally? What can be done is consulting competent counsel who are knowledgeable about Internet issues, in particular to study the ECPA (Electronic Communications Privacy Act) as it may relate to your situation. --- Carl Oppedahl, Oppedahl & Larson, patent law firm http://www.patents.com/ has hundreds of pages of answers to frequently asked questions on patent, copyright, and trademark law

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RE: Plethora of UUnet outages and instabilities
by Peter Cole 01 Jul '97

01 Jul '97

I am just a multihomed customer with Two T1s running BGP4. I had no trouble with my Ts from Sprint and MCI until about two months ago. I am running a 7206 with 64meg of RAM on 11.1(12). Our customer support started getting complaints about customers not being able to reach us(AS7201) from MSN dialup in Houston. The network 153.36.0.0/14 was in my BGP tables but not my IP route table. I called Cisco and after a little work they concluded that the reason the routes were being removed was more specific routes 153.36.50.0 & 153.36.51.0 inside the CIDR were removing the 153.36.0.0/14. I didn't understand the logic but a simple distribute list ignoring announcements for the two class Cs seemed to solve the problem. Later I sent a note to Sprint, MCI, MSN, & UUNET. Spint and MCI responded quickly stating that Cisco was mistaken. Cisco wants to look into it further. I have herd nothing from MSN or UUNET. I have to update the software on the router for other reasons. I thought I would wait to see if the problem is still present after my upgrade. I have no route Damping setup and can think of no other explanation for this bizarre behavior. My point is that maybe there are other reasons that so many ASs are having problems with UUNET routes. Peter Cole of Telescan, Inc. (281)588-9155 Better computing through lack of sleep. > ---------- > From: Josh Beck[SMTP:jbeck@connectnet.com] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 4:12 PM > To: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: Plethora of UUnet outages and instabilities > > Has everyone else been seeing the almost daily UUnet outages recently, > does anyone know what the true causes of these have been? > > Josh Beck > jbeck(a)connectnet.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > CONNECTNet INS, Inc. Phone: (619)450-0254 Fax: > (619)450-3216 > 6370 Lusk Blvd., Suite F-208 San Diego, CA > 92121 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >

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