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Re: Whoa; the 3 network?
by Randall Pigott 24 Dec '97

24 Dec '97

At 07:08 AM 12/23/97 -0500, you wrote: >Funky discovery... question is, why does GE need such massive addr space? >:) > >-=asr snip >> >> [root@newspeer1 /root]# whois 3.0.0.0 >> General Electric Company (NET-GE-INTERNET) >> One Independence Way >> Princeton, NJ 08540 >> >> Netname: GE-INTERNET >> Netnumber: 3.0.0.0 The Princeton address is the same as the old RCA company division that did DARPA and ARPA gov't contracting, so that address space once belonged to RCA "in the beginning". I have personal experience in a past life doing military DARPA work with RCA, nearly twenty years ago, long before they formed RCA Astro and built communications satellites. This address space was given to RCA for DARPA work *only* way back then or earlier. RCA was one of the *first* contractors in the TCP/IP address space, and we worked on the very first gov't. task at the inception with them. No such work has been done for years, and there is no reason for RCA/GE to have this address space anymore. Perhaps the real issue is - now that RCA was swallowed up years ago by the mighty GE in a lengthy acquisitions process, and no longer has any defensible need for this much address space, why do they still have it? It is damn sure not being used for what it was originally intended, nor is it being used to anywhere near 80% of its capacity. I did a casual sequential-countup scripted "ping -a" on a small slice of 3.0.0.0, and found almost no working domains within this address space. Ever wonder? How can they get away with keeping this much address space and NOT be using it, when we all jump through hoops to get our own little blocks of net numbers allocated? Just challenging the status quo again, (gave up tilting at windmills because my horse ran away.....) Randall

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RE: Whoa; the 3 network?
by Bob Bownes 24 Dec '97

24 Dec '97

Gotta deal with it in a historical perspective as well. GE has had IP space almost since the epoch. Much of their network dates from well before well understood subnetting. Heck some of it dates back to the time of the IMP. (Think about every network you've ever inherited...None of them were ever 'right' were they? Now picture one 20+ years in the evolutionary making.) No reason it could not be further optimized, but renumbering hundreds of thousands of machines is not a trivial exercise. And we are talking about > 10^6 machines. Research & Development, a site I formerly worked at, was well over 2K machines alone. 1000 sites with 100 machines is not unimaginable. Toss in subnetting and the fact that, as I recall, there is little central administration of the space, and it becomes a non-trivial issue to re-address it all. GE certainly isn't the only /8 holder out there, nor are they the only one with this kind of problem. I think there are a lot more wasted /16's out there than we may realize, particularly with corporate consolidation being what it is. I can think of several folks with 3 or more /16's resulting from corporate consolidation, all of which could be consolidated into one, but the pain of doing so is high compared to the pain of hiding or refusing to deal with the problem. You gonna move folks with a carrot or a stick? But it's probably time to remove this thread from NANOG. Bob ---------- From: Cameo Davine[SMTP:cameo@netsys.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 10:08 AM To: Bono, Vinny (CAP, ITS, US) Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: RE: Whoa; the 3 network? All acquired companies. Does that include the /18 of MAI Network Services since that was acquired by GE as well? On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Bono, Vinny (CAP, ITS, US) wrote: | |Well, GE is the largest corporation in the world. The total employees |in all seven divisions and their components is just over 1.7 million. |That is a lot. Add in all the IP devices in NBC's network alone and |you've got a huge number of justifiable space right there. Further, |they, uh sorry, we, :-) are renumbering all acquired companies into the |3.0.0.0/8 range and returning the historic class B's (i.e. Ameridata, |Bodan, etc.). | |Vincent J. Bono |Comstor Corporation |A GE Capital Service Company - P.800.311.4219*C.703.867.4357 cameo.d.wood

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Impact of paying for address space
by Phil Howard 24 Dec '97

24 Dec '97

With there being a fee structure coming into place for obtaining address space, businesses are going to end up being more conservative with their space requests. Maybe. I suspect many will. If you expect to assign a /17 worth of space over the next year, why ask for all /17 of it now. Why not get a /19 each quarter as needed. With the fee structure in place, there would be less panic about space becoming too scarce. Now if this does take place, and I believe it will although I am not sure to what scale, that will mean that each business and ISP will have more smaller prefixes. That means more BGP announcements and larger tables and an impact on routers. Thoughts? -- Phil Howard | w4x4y7z4(a)lame0ads.org stop7it6(a)no15ads1.edu no7way47(a)spam6mer.com phil | stop7ads(a)noplace9.net crash317(a)nowhere4.com no42ads2(a)noplace7.edu at | end0it76(a)spammer8.edu blow9me4(a)s9p4a3m3.com end0it61(a)noplace0.edu milepost | eat56me7(a)spammer8.org stop8944(a)no2where.com die3spam(a)noplace4.net dot | stop5ads(a)lame7ads.net suck1it0(a)anyplace.net w8x9y7z9(a)s4p0a5m4.org com | die4spam(a)dumbads4.com end2ads1(a)nowhere2.edu ads7suck(a)anywhere.edu

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Broadcast pings.
by Jamie Scheinblum 24 Dec '97

24 Dec '97

Has anyone seen an increase of broadcast pings, where the source route appears to be from a nameserver? We took a look through our access-list logs, and it seems all of the attempted attacks during the last few days have had an IP-source of a nameserver. Just thought it was curious. Best regards, Jamie Scheinblum - FASTNET(tm) / You Tools Corporation jamie(a)fast.net (610)954-5200 http://www.fast.net/ FASTNET - Business and Personal Internet Solutions

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Re: Impact of paying for address space
by Paul Ferguson 24 Dec '97

24 Dec '97

At 08:29 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Adam Rothschild wrote: > >However, looking at the high fees imposed by ARIN for address assignment, >I really hope this practice will not remain in its current form. As >anyone can clearly see, the fees are extremely high, and will surely cause >a raise in costs that are incurred by the end user in one way or another. Listen, many of us have already lived through the e-mail Jihad on the ARIN mailing list, so I really don't want to see this thread perpetuated here. Please, subscribe to the naipr list and have a blast, but please, not here. I would suggest that you take a little time, read the 'recommended reading' list assembled on the ARIN web pages, surf the naipr mailing list archives, etc. I would also suggest that you examine the fact that the Internet community in the European (RIPE) and Asia Pacific (APNIC) communities have been living with similar *service* models for a few years. > >Put simply, I would LOVE to hear some justification for the high fees >imposed by ARIN (in terms of administrative work on their end that is, not >considering the whole scarcity of addresses factor). They are a not-for-profit organization which must be self-sustaining. 'Nuff said. Happy Holidays, - paul

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Re: Whoa; the 3 network?
by Ravi Pina 23 Dec '97

23 Dec '97

> That's SNAFU not snaffoo. > > SNAFU stands for Situation Normal All Fouled Up. > I was pondering that for several minutes and started to get a headache. Good to know tho... thanks! -ravi -- Ravi H Pina * "There are only two way to live your life. One is as ravi(a)iagnet.net * though nothing is a mairacle. The other is as though DID:216.523.2615 * everything is a miracle." NOC:800.424.3223 * -- Albert Einstein

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Re: Whoa; the 3 network?
by Eric Germann 23 Dec '97

23 Dec '97

Maybe they should. That would be incentive to return unused space. Eric At 11:47 AM 12/23/97 -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: >On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Eric Germann wrote: > >> I didn't know Thomas Edison worked for GE? > >He founded The Edison Electric Company which became General Electric. > >> ARIN ought to be happy when they get their check for that one! > >If you read through http://www.arin.net you should find some place where >it mentions that people with existing allocations don't pay anything until >they need additional address space. > >-- >Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting >http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael(a)memra.com > > > > ============================================================================ ==== Eric Germann Computer and Communications Technologies ekgermann(a)cctec.com Van Wert, OH 45891 Phone: 419 968 2640 http://www.cctec.com Fax: 419 968 2641 Network Design, Connectivity & System Integration Services A Microsoft Solution Provider

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RE: Whoa; the 3 network?
by Bono, Vinny (CAP, ITS, US) 23 Dec '97

23 Dec '97

If *I* were in charge of renumbering maybe I would consider that. But, since GE, arrgghh, *we* do use the public internet as a transport to get to/from the corporate wan based on location, duration of connection needed, etc. Also, we are renumbering the smaller components into 3.0.0.0/8, but there is already a tremendous amount of numbered devices. Also, I guess I should stop responding to these jabs now. :-) -v > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Germann [SMTP:ekgermann@cctec.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 2:50 PM > To: Bono, Vinny (CAP, ITS, US) > Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: RE: Whoa; the 3 network? > > If you're in the process of renumbering, why not renumber into 10/8? > Does > Jane Pauley need her own gloabally routable IP address? Number of > employees <> number of addresses. > > I suppose if you think about it, ping flooding Tom Brokaw's > teleprompter > during the Nightly News would be kind of cool. Of course, this could > be > the spiked eggnog talking too.... > > Happy Holidays, > > Eric > > > At 12:03 PM 12/23/97 -0600, you wrote: > > > >Well, GE is the largest corporation in the world. The total > employees > >in all seven divisions and their components is just over 1.7 million. > >That is a lot. Add in all the IP devices in NBC's network alone and > >you've got a huge number of justifiable space right there. Further, > >they, uh sorry, we, :-) are renumbering all acquired companies into > the > >3.0.0.0/8 range and returning the historic class B's (i.e. Ameridata, > >Bodan, etc.). > > > >Vincent J. Bono > >Comstor Corporation > >A GE Capital Service Company > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Adam Rothschild [SMTP:asr@millburn.net] > >> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 7:09 AM > >> To: Alex Rubenstein > >> Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu > >> Subject: Re: Whoa; the 3 network? > >> > >> Funky discovery... question is, why does GE need such massive addr > >> space? > >> :) > >> > >> -=asr > >> > >> On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Alex Rubenstein wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > Maybe I should be sleeping rather than examining BGP tables, but: > >> > > >> > > >> > whi4#sho ip bgp 3.156.20.0 > >> > BGP routing table entry for 3.156.20.0/24, version 449977 > >> > Paths: (1 available, best #1, advertised over IBGP) > >> > 7372 701 3561 1221 > >> > 207.99.5.196 from 207.99.5.196 (208.210.32.17) > >> > Origin incomplete, localpref 500, valid, external, best > >> > Community: 666 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > traceroute to 3.156.20.1 (3.156.20.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte > packets > >> > . > >> > . > >> > 5 telstra.SanFrancisco.mci.net (166.48.19.250) 332.535 ms > >> 538.669 ms 365.308 ms > >> > 6 Fddi0-0.pad-core1.Sydney.telstra.net (139.130.249.226) > 290.266 > >> ms 317.40 ms 290.209 ms > >> > 7 Hssi6-0.lon-core1.Melbourne.telstra.net (139.130.249.214) > >> 350.701 ms 339.90 ms 439.199 ms > >> > 8 Fddi0-0.lon11.Melbourne.telstra.net (139.130.239.234) > 419.291 > >> ms 424.309 ms 283.243 ms > >> > 9 power2.lnk.telstra.net (139.130.49.114) 403.623 ms 353.911 > ms > >> 307.750 ms > >> > 10 203.36.142.146 (203.36.142.146) 348.695 ms 310.482 ms > 301.917 > >> ms > >> > > >> > > >> > [root@newspeer1 /root]# whois 3.0.0.0 > >> > General Electric Company (NET-GE-INTERNET) > >> > One Independence Way > >> > Princeton, NJ 08540 > >> > > >> > Netname: GE-INTERNET > >> > Netnumber: 3.0.0.0 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ====================================================================== > ====== > ==== > Eric Germann Computer and Communications > Technologies > ekgermann(a)cctec.com Van Wert, OH 45891 > Phone: 419 968 2640 > http://www.cctec.com Fax: 419 968 2641 > > Network Design, Connectivity & System Integration Services > A Microsoft Solution Provider begin 600 winmail.dat M>)\^(@X4`0:0"``$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y`0```````#H``$(@`<` M&````$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`02``0`9````4D4Z(%=H M;V$[('1H92`S(&YE='=O<FL_`-@'`0F``0`A````1C<Y,S(a)Q1C-!.3="1#$Q M,4(W,S$P,#8P,#(a)R-C!$.#4`Z08!((`#``X```#-!PP`%P`.`!X`"@`"`"\! 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RE: Whoa; the 3 network?
by Bono, Vinny (CAP, ITS, US) 23 Dec '97

23 Dec '97

Well, GE is the largest corporation in the world. The total employees in all seven divisions and their components is just over 1.7 million. That is a lot. Add in all the IP devices in NBC's network alone and you've got a huge number of justifiable space right there. Further, they, uh sorry, we, :-) are renumbering all acquired companies into the 3.0.0.0/8 range and returning the historic class B's (i.e. Ameridata, Bodan, etc.). Vincent J. Bono Comstor Corporation A GE Capital Service Company > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Rothschild [SMTP:asr@millburn.net] > Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 7:09 AM > To: Alex Rubenstein > Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: Re: Whoa; the 3 network? > > Funky discovery... question is, why does GE need such massive addr > space? > :) > > -=asr > > On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Alex Rubenstein wrote: > > > > > Maybe I should be sleeping rather than examining BGP tables, but: > > > > > > whi4#sho ip bgp 3.156.20.0 > > BGP routing table entry for 3.156.20.0/24, version 449977 > > Paths: (1 available, best #1, advertised over IBGP) > > 7372 701 3561 1221 > > 207.99.5.196 from 207.99.5.196 (208.210.32.17) > > Origin incomplete, localpref 500, valid, external, best > > Community: 666 > > > > > > > > traceroute to 3.156.20.1 (3.156.20.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets > > . > > . > > 5 telstra.SanFrancisco.mci.net (166.48.19.250) 332.535 ms > 538.669 ms 365.308 ms > > 6 Fddi0-0.pad-core1.Sydney.telstra.net (139.130.249.226) 290.266 > ms 317.40 ms 290.209 ms > > 7 Hssi6-0.lon-core1.Melbourne.telstra.net (139.130.249.214) > 350.701 ms 339.90 ms 439.199 ms > > 8 Fddi0-0.lon11.Melbourne.telstra.net (139.130.239.234) 419.291 > ms 424.309 ms 283.243 ms > > 9 power2.lnk.telstra.net (139.130.49.114) 403.623 ms 353.911 ms > 307.750 ms > > 10 203.36.142.146 (203.36.142.146) 348.695 ms 310.482 ms 301.917 > ms > > > > > > [root@newspeer1 /root]# whois 3.0.0.0 > > General Electric Company (NET-GE-INTERNET) > > One Independence Way > > Princeton, NJ 08540 > > > > Netname: GE-INTERNET > > Netnumber: 3.0.0.0 > > > > > > > > >

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Re: Whoa; the 3 network?
by Eric Germann 23 Dec '97

23 Dec '97

At 10:27 AM 12/23/97 -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: >On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Adam Rothschild wrote: > >> Funky discovery... question is, why does GE need such massive addr space? >> :) > >Because they are directly responsible for the existence of the Internet. >After all, GE invented the light bulb. If not for that we would have had >no vacuum tubes, thus no transistors, thus no ICs, thus no IMPs, thus no >Internet. > I didn't know Thomas Edison worked for GE? >Or maybe its because GE Information Systems ran the largest internet in >the world until the Internet surpassed it in size a couple of years ago. > >Or maybe they don't. Why don't you ask them why they need it. > ARIN ought to be happy when they get their check for that one! >-- >Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting >http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael(a)memra.com > > > > ============================================================================ ==== Eric Germann Computer and Communications Technologies ekgermann(a)cctec.com Van Wert, OH 45891 Phone: 419 968 2640 http://www.cctec.com Fax: 419 968 2641 Network Design, Connectivity & System Integration Services A Microsoft Solution Provider

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