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AUTORESPONDERS : Gentle Reminder
by Rodney Joffe 25 Dec '98

25 Dec '98

Hello, A gentle reminder to those of you who use autoresponders when you go on vacation - are out of the office - go to the men's/ladies room etc. DON'T subscribe to NANOG and other lists from these accounts. Having just been bombarded by a bunch of "I'm out of the office on Vacation until January 5th - In case of emergency..." type messages after my prior message, I can tell you it's irritating as hell, and pretty rude. /rlj

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Re: follow up on gigabit either
by George Herbert 24 Dec '98

24 Dec '98

K wrote: [useful summary of gigabit ether situation] >Steve also made exclnt point that the ATM vs 'promiscuous' medium > have other inherent distinction of potential interest > to ISPs with policy/privacy/security concerns I'm not quite sure I understand this bit; isn't switched ether (of any speed) equally secure as an ATM switch would be? -george william herbert gherbert(a)crl.com I speak only for myself

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follow up on gigabit either
by k claffy 24 Dec '98

24 Dec '98

hi ok, summary as warranted: ================== who responded: ================== folks from following spaces answered (some to list so you saw) (forgot to ask for permission to use names so won't, but you who answered know who you are since you've been karma++'ed today) ic.gc.ca canarie.ca gxn.net (gx networks) cisco bluestar.net linx.net surfnet.nl shrubbery.net ================== upshot: ================== mostly all atm for now, though several folks pondering/aiming for gigE for connectivity to NAP's like CA*Net3. (usable (high density) gigether switches only recently available) 2.5 notable exceptions: LINX and AMS-IX, and CaNET3.soon ================== per instance details: ================== LINX does: http://www.linx.net/ http://www.linx.net/tickets/1998_migrate.html . 2 Packet Engines PowerRail 5200s 2 Extreme Summit 48s, linked w gigE . 2 physical locs in Docklands about 5km apart dark fibre between, gigE happily over it. . 2 redundant conns from two telcos to avoid backhoe risk. . interswitch traffic is >100Mbps on some links. no access >100Mbps to ISPs. no members even on at gigE yet, biggest LINX members only push ~40M/sec i/o each, --> no problem so far Amsterdam IX (AMS-IX) (since sept98) http://www.ams-ix.net/ . ISPs connect on 10BaseT and 100BaseTX . may add Fast EtherChannel and GigE. CANARIE . working w Nortel, Ameritech, UoIllinois and iCAIR to . build an "optical Internet exchange" in Chicago. . initally for HPC (research) network (MREN, CA*net 3, SuperNet) . peering connections at 2.5 Gbps (OC-48) using any desired protocol: e.g., GigE, ATM, SONET, etc Canarie has fine paper on this stuff, fwiw (tnx billStA) http://www.canet3.net/Optical/architectural.htm Steve also made exclnt point that the ATM vs 'promiscuous' medium have other inherent distinction of potential interest to ISPs with policy/privacy/security concerns hope this worth the aal5 headers it cost... tnx again for data k

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Re: ** Forged spamming going on
by Paul Vixie 24 Dec '98

24 Dec '98

wsimpson(a)greendragon.com ("William Allen Simpson") writes: > Has ngti.com been added to the RBL for relaying faked spam? no. had a maps rbl volunteer, or someone else who follows the protocol described by http://maps.vix.com/rbl/reporting.html, actually received any of this spam and analyzed it and made a case, well, perhaps ngti would have been blackholed. but this particular tempest has brewed up only inside nanog's teapot, and not in the maps rbl's. -- Paul Vixie <paul(a)vix.com>

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Re: ** Forged spamming going on
by Dean Anderson 24 Dec '98

24 Dec '98

At 11:08 AM 12/23/1998 -0800, Patrick Greenwell wrote: >On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Dean Anderson wrote: > >> I have argued in the past that the RBL will not acheive its desired goals. >> And I don't think it will, or has. But I don't deny it certainly does have >> effective power to coerce and influence the industry. It can clearly move >> big players like earthlink and others. > >If it is an effective power to move big players, it would seem that it has >been at least moderately successful in acheiving its' desired goals. Except that the goal was to stop spam, not just make people jump through hoops. I haven't seen any change in spam volume. So I think it has been ineffective at achieving its goals. A gun has effective power too. Except that it should be used by Police Officers to stop crime, and not by random vigilantes to shoot whomever they please and ask questions later. And like any powerful tool, there should be some responsibility for its use and misuse. Paul has none. --Dean ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Re: ** Forged spamming going on
by Dean Anderson 23 Dec '98

23 Dec '98

At 12:08 PM 12/23/1998 -0800, Patrick Greenwell wrote: >So what you are saying is that with marked increase in people getting on >the Internet since the time that the RBL was created, that you haven't >seen an increase in spam volume? I think most reasonable would consider >that at least a marginal success in containment. Volume as been argued previous on other venues, is exactly the same issue as used in the 70's against bulk postal mailers: 'If it isn't banned you'll be literally buried by junk mail.' Well, actually, there are market constraints on the volume of (postal or email) mail totally independent and unrelated to the RBL. Economics and psychology control the volume. And the economics aren't related much to the cost. Spam costs less than direct mail which costs less than radio, which is less than TV. There are saturation points which aren't related to the system capacity to deliver advertising. So no matter what the system capacity, you aren't ever going to be overwhelmned by advertising. But for some, any is too much. Those people are generally categorized as being on the fringe. RBL hasn't really contained anything. Except cause pain to ISP's who get caught in the crossfire. >> A gun has effective power too. Except that it should be used by Police >> Officers to stop crime, and not by random vigilantes to shoot whomever they >> please and ask questions later. > >It is heartening to see someone with such a high regard for the >governments abilities in this area. Here I was labouring under the >misconception that the government has been largely ignorant in these >matters and ineffective in addressing them. Thanks for clearing that up >for me. Well, its people like Vixie who abuse their power and abilities that make it necessary for governments to intervene. I would hope that the industry could police itself. But it doesn't seem to be able to come up with an alternative other than a single capricious individual. There used not be any gun laws either. Not that spammers are in any way faultless. Certainly not. But as the saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right. >> And like any powerful tool, there should be some responsibility for its use >> and misuse. Paul has none. > >A lot of reasonable people would disagree with you. Reasonable people who support power without responsibility? I doubt it, except they are the ones trying to wield the power. --Dean ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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poll: are any sizable exchange points using gigabit ether?
by k claffy 23 Dec '98

23 Dec '98

or are folks pretty much (ATM?)-switch tech'ed? or do folks have plans to migrate to gig ether (or to definitely Not to, for some reason?) (or change 'gig ether' to some other imminent.technology.that.might.be. compelling.enuf.to.displace.atm) if u wanna send messages 2 me i'll compile/post to save b/w (which presumably saves much more b/w if am posting via atm switches but etc) k

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NANOG 15
by Pam Ciesla 23 Dec '98

23 Dec '98

Update on hotel info. I spoke with the people at the Hyatt in Denver. The Hyatt is full during the NANOG Meeting. If you are planning on attending make hotel reservations early. The NANOG hotel block is available until January 8. Also for those registering with credit card info. Credit cards will not be run until late January and receipts will be available at the meeting in your name badges. The nanog-support staff will be off for the holidays (possible checking e-mail), back in the office on 1/4/99. Have a safe and happy holiday. See you at NANOG 15 next year. Pam Pam Ciesla Merit Network,Inc. 734-936-0172 - phone 4251 Plymouth Road 734-647-3185 Bldg.I, Suite C pam(a)merit.edu Ann Arbor, MI 48107

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Re: ** Forged spamming going on
by Dean Anderson 23 Dec '98

23 Dec '98

At 12:59 AM 12/22/1998 -0500, you wrote: >I begin to think you're being _wilfully perverse_ in your >misunderstandings of things people state clearly. Let me clarify things then. First he said he RBL'ed them "in the first 6 months of the RBL". Now they are RBL supporters. Then read the "makes no effort" The so-called "effort" here is really just "cooperation" with Paul Vixie. I'm not the only one concerned about coercion by the RBL. I know I'm not the only one concerned that the use of this coercion is capricious and unpredictable, and changes depending on Paul's moods and own interests. This was demonstrated quite clearly with the abandonment of rules to essentially blackmail NetSol into cooperation. The bottom line is that the RBL is a powerful hammer, and the person in control is inclined to act capriciously without concern for anyone else or even follow his own rules about their "permitted activities" as he originally defined them in the pages on qualification for the RBL. Thats an operational problem. I think we either need to take the hammer away from Paul and give it to someone more even handed and fair about the application of the rules, or stop using the hammer altogether. The latter alternative is unlikely. I have argued in the past that the RBL will not acheive its desired goals. And I don't think it will, or has. But I don't deny it certainly does have effective power to coerce and influence the industry. It can clearly move big players like earthlink and others. I can live by whatever rules as long as they are evenly applied to everyone else. I can't live with a powerful instrument like the RBL which is applied capriciously at Pauls apparent whim. I think others agree with this. --Dean ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Re: AUTORESPONDERS : Gentle Reminder
by George Matey 23 Dec '98

23 Dec '98

At 03:39 PM 12/23/98 +0000, Rich Fulton wrote: >On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Daniel Reed wrote: > >> Actually, this mailing list neither adds in a "Mailing-List: ..." header >> nor a "Precedence: bulk" header, which are the two easiest ways to spot a >> modern mailing list. I'd suggest you complain to the mailing list >> managers, not the poor people whose [most likely] properly configured >> autoresponders aren't being given the information they should be given. > >from the headers...<may be a new addition> > >Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu >Precedence: bulk Its new as of 12/23. Thanks! (to whomever added it). -- George

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