- NANOG - lists.nanog.org

Re: IETF SMTP Working Group Proposal at smtpng.org
by Dave Israel 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

The problem with SSL is it doesn't include certificate chain to arbitrary authorities. However, there's a space for web of trust in SSL, I believe, so yeah, a new verison of SSL might be just the ticket. On 8/22/2002 at 00:02:24 +0300, Petri Helenius said: > > > > > Treat them sort of like SSL certs now. Charge an annual registrar fee > > per company, not per server. (Something like $100 a year) The more they > > have to go out of their way to get their spam server online, the more > > they would be deterred to do so. They're only going to want to change > > so many ISP's, go through SWIP and then change their legal name for the > > registrar so many times. > > > Why don´t you just start using SSL certs with SMTP ? The protocol is there, > ways to get certificates are there, no need to start smoothing a square > piece > to make a new wheel. > > Pete > >

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Re: Eat this RIAA (or, the war has begun?) - Why not all ISPs?
by Paul Wouters 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, David Schwartz wrote: > As far as I know, yes, any company can refuse to do business with any > individual or company with very few exceptions. No. Only if ISP's would call under the common carrier principle. And it seems the world is trying its very best not to grant them that. You can't have the cake and eat it too. If common carrier principle is not valid, you can refuse someone's traffic, as long as you're not violating another law (eg anti-discriminatory laws). So you can probably tell RIA "we no longer carry your traffic for no reason", but you can't deny someone because they're a black pregnant lesbian Mormon. Paul

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RE: Eat this RIAA (or, the war has begun?) - Why not all ISPs?
by N. Richard Solis 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

IANAL but I the way I understand the law is that collusion among different companies to exclude another company from a particular enterprise can be considered antitrust. In a practical sense, the exclusion must be "effective" in that the excluded company would find it impossible to compete. A lot of smaller providers telling Sony to take a hike might not meet the definition but all of the large networks getting together to keep Soony sans Internet might do the trick. Once again, IANAL. -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of David Schwartz Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:59 PM To: rhealey(a)onvoy.com Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Eat this RIAA (or, the war has begun?) - Why not all ISPs? > Generic question related to this: > > Can ISP's arbitrarily refuse to give service to someone who tries > to sign up? i.e. if everyone refused to give Sony service could they > sue on some sort of discrimination/collusion charge? > > Do ISP/ASP/*SP's HAVE to provide services if someone knocks on the > door requesting them or can they refuse for any reason what so ever? > > Any armchair lawyers, who play one on TV, have the/an answer? > > -Rob As far as I know, yes, any company can refuse to do business with any individual or company with very few exceptions. This even applies to monopolists, providing their monopoly is legally acquired and they haven't entered into any contracts to the contrary. The only exceptions I know of involve either true discrimination unrelated to the transaction (such as racial discrimination) or life, health and safety issues. DS

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NANOG Mailing List FAQ - draft v2.0
by JC Dill 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

The FAQ draft URL was posted, but we haven't had a lot of feedback. So I was asked to post the entire FAQ in text format to the list, for everyone to read and comment on. jc ================ NANOG Mailing List FAQ draft.v2.0 <http://www.nanog.org/listfaq.html> Last updated: 08/22/02 Table of Contents Credits About NANOG and the List How to Subscribe Appropriate Topics Acceptable Use Policy Posting Conventions Question Index 1.Routers 2.BGP 3.NOCs 4.Network Management 5.Peering 6.Topics We've Already Discussed (and don't want to hear about again) 7.Off-Topic Questions Related Mailing Lists and Web Sites Credits The editors of this FAQ include Etaoin Shrdlu, Rachel Warren, JC Dill, Marty Hannigan, Gwendolynn Ferch Elydyr, Richard Steenbergen, John Payne, Ginna Musgrove, Doug Clements, and Susan Harris. FAQ contributions are welcome -- please send email to nanog-support(a)nanog.org. Credit goes to the linux-kernel mailing list FAQ, which served as a model for the NANOG FAQ. About NANOG and the List This is the FAQ for the North American Network Operator's Group mailing list. NANOG is an educational and operational forum for coordination of network operations in North America, and holds three annual meetings. See the main NANOG web page at: http://www.nanog.org NANOG and the email list are organized by Merit Network, Inc., a non-profit Michigan organization: http://www.merit.edu How to Subscribe Anyone can subscribe to and read the NANOG list, but those who wish to post must first subscribe to the nanog-post list. For more information, see the subscription web page at: http://www.nanog.org/mailinglist.html Appropriate Topics NANOG discussions are on-topic if they're of interest to people running wide-area networks interconnected with other networks. "Network operations" in this context means issues related to entire networks, rather than to end users. Appropriate topics include routing, broad-based engineering problems/issues/solutions, outages, performance measurement, evolving wide-area technologies, exchange points, traffic engineering, operational experience, and trouble ticket systems. Acceptable Use Policy A summary of the AUP follows: 1.Discussion focuses on Internet operational and technical issues as described in the charter of NANOG. 2.Postings to multiple mailing lists are discouraged. 3.Postings that include foul language, character assassination, and lack of respect for other participants are prohibited. 4.Blatant product marketing is unacceptable. 5.Postings of political, philosophical, and legal nature are discouraged. 6.Postings must be made using real, identifiable names and addresses, rather than aliases. Individuals who violate these guidelines are contacted personally and asked to adhere to the guidelines. If an individual persists in violating the guidelines, Merit filters the offender's messages to the list. The full Charter and AUP for the mailing list are available on the NANOG web: http://www.nanog.org/aup.html Posting Conventions When posting to the NANOG list please avoid: 1.Top-posting, i.e., putting your reply right on top of the message you're responding to, rather than quoting and responding as follows: > relevant excerpt 1 response to excerpt > relevant excerpt 2 response to excerpt > relevant excerpt 3 response to excerpt 2.Using non-standard methods of quoting prior text; 3.Failing to quote, or to snip, as appropriate; 4.Sending in HTML or other non-standard attachment formats; 5.Starting or participating in flame wars. The linux-kernel mailing list FAQ provides detailed instructions for quoting prior text: http://www.tux.org/lkml/#s3-9 See also the Jargon File information on email quotes and inclusion conventions: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/Email-Quotes.html Please check to make sure your question hasn't already been answered before posting to the list. We recommend that you: Search for the relevant terms at google.com. Search the NANOG mailing list archives at http://www.nanog.org/mailinglist.html for previous answers. Check the Topics We've Already Discussed section below. As with all mailing lists, it's a good idea to familiarize yourself with the personalities and expertise involved before indulging in a disagreement. NANOG includes many people who have spent years of their lives building networks - and their experience is a non-trivial resource. If the person you are replying to (or talking about) is unknown to you, it is best to do some research on who that person is and why they may be qualified on the topic at hand. google.com is your friend. We suggest you search for: "firstname lastname" or "firstname lastname" topic or "firstname lastname" nanog etc., and read up before replying. This will often save you untold embarrassment. NANOG often has thread drift and ends up with long threads about splinter topics (like spam, etc.). Please move these discussions to a list where the topic is on-topic. NANOG is for moving packets. NANOG does not usually care what is in the packet unless it is a routing protocol. Question Index 1.Routers 1.How do I know if a router configuration question is on-topic or not? 2.Buying a used router 2.BGP 1.BGP How-to's and implementation 3.NOCs 1.List of NOCs 2.Setting up up a new NOC 3.NOC/operational job postings 4.Network Management 1.Posting traceroutes 2.I'm being pinged 5.Peering 1.(Not) getting peering from a particular company 2.Locating peering contacts 3.Peering agreements 6.Topics We've Already Disussed (and don't want to hear about again) 1.What is a "Tier 1" provider? 2.Are we running out of IPv4 space? 3.Private address space 7.Off-Topic Questions 1.Spam 2.Local DNS 3.Network certification 4.NAT 8.Related Mailing Lists and Web Sites Routers Q: How do I know if a router configuration question is on-topic or not? A: If your question is "how do I do <foo> on a <bar> router?", this question is best asked on one of the router-specific mailing lists below. If your question is "How do I get <vendor A> and <vendor B>'s implementations to work together?" then that question is on-topic for NANOG. Platform-specific lists include: Cisco routers http://puck.nether.net/cisco-nsp Juniper routers http://puck.nether.net/juniper-nsp Riverstone routers http://www.nmops.org OS/2 http://www.hethmon.com/isp.html FreeBSD http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html Q: Where's a good place to buy a used <foo> router? A: Your question is vendor-specific and is therefore off-topic for NANOG, which deals with multi-vendor networks. Examples of other mailing lists that are related to selling routing equipment include: ISP-Equipment - List at http://isp-lists.isp-planet.com/isp-equipment/ for buyers, sellers, and traders of either new or used ISP equipment in the U.S. If you're looking for rare parts, have excess inventory to sell, want to buy new but can't afford it, and a used piece of hardware fits the bill, this list is a great place for an ISP professional to start. ISP-Services - List at http://www.ispc.org/lists/ for ISP equipment and services BGP (Border Gateway Protocol) Q: Does anyone have a good url/documentation/howto's about BGP and implementing it? A: These should get you started: Joe's BGP Page (links to RFCs, CIDR FAQ, etc.) http://joe.lindsay.net/bgp.html Internetworking Case Studies http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/cisintwk/ics/ BGP Case Studies, Section 1 http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/459/13.html Frequently Asked Questions on Multi-homing and BGP http://info.connect.com.au/docs/routing/general/multi-faq.shtml Configuring and Verifying the BGP Conditional Advertisement Feature http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/459/cond_adv.html Cisco IOS Essentials http://www.cisco.com/public/cons/isp/essentials/IOS_Essentials_2-9.pdf NOCs Q: Is there a list of Network Operations Centers? A: Why, yes, there is. You may find it at http://puck.nether.net/netops/. Q: Any advice for someone setting up a new NOC? A: Try inet-ops at http://www.inet-ops.stealthgeeks.net. Q: Where can I go to find a list of NOC/operational job postings? A: http://www.dice.com - Job listing site with emphasis on tech jobs inet-consultants - List for issues related to Internet consulting: job postings, resources, etc. Peering Q: I got flamed when I complained about not getting peering from a particular company - how come? A: NANOG isn't the place to complain if your peering request was denied. Trying to shame the company in a public forum will hurt your credibility and that of the company that you are working for. There are a few ways to get peering with a someone that doesn't want to peer with you. Bill Norton provides a lot of insight about this in two papers, Internet Service Providers and Peering and The Art of Peering: The Peering Playbook (both in MS Word). Q: How do I find the name of the peering contact for a particular company? A: Here are some steps to follow: 1.Go to the Exchange Point Information web site at http://www.ep.net and try to find the company via one of the many exchanges whose web sites provide contact information. 2.Go to http://puck.nether.net/netops/ and click on "NOC Telephone List." If there is an email address for the company for noc@.com, then usually one can email that to try to peer, but usually it is much better to email peering@<dommainname>.com instead. 3.Use the command: whois -h geektools.com <ASN> This usually yields the appropriate contacts. For example: % whois -h geektools.com 701 Query: 701 Registry: whois.arin.net Results: UUNET Technologies, Inc. (ASN-ALTERNET) 22001 Loudoun County Pkwy Ashburn, VA 20147 US Autonomous System Name: ALTERNET-AS Autonomous System Block: 701 - 705 Coordinator: Engineering, Internetwork (IE8-ARIN) inter-eng(a)uu.net (703) 886-6933 Record last updated on 06-Mar-2001. Database last updated on 27-Jul-2002 17:42:00 EDT. Results brought to you by the GeekTools WHOIS Proxy Server results may be copyrighted and are used with permission. Q: What terms are included in typical peering agreements? A: Ask in the model-peer email group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/model-peer. Network Management Q: Is it OK to post traceroutes or descriptions of network problems for help with debugging? A: No. One should email/call the appropriate NOCs and ask for assistance rather than posting to NANOG. Once in a while someone puts a traceroute example on NANOG to start a flamewar or grudge match about how bad a certain company is -- this is definitely inappropriate for the list. On a side note, most of the time when people send traceroutes to NANOG, they do not give enough information for someone to even help them out with their problems. When one sends a traceroute to the appropriate parties, please provide information about your originating IP and destination IP addresses. Also give the entire traceroute to the network operators, not just part of it. Otherwise it can be difficult or impossible to troubleshoot the problem. If you need to know where to get assistance from a NOC, please look at http://puck.nether.net/netops/, which explains what a NOC is, when you should contact a NOC, and how to contact NOCs of various companies. You can also add your NOC details to the webpage. Q: My network/machine is being pinged by <some network>. What should I do to stop them? A: Please contact the NOC's for each of the companies if you do not want them to ping you. The companies are probably not trying to DDoS you with their pings, and most of them will be more than willing to accommodate your request. Topics We've Already Discussed on the List (over and over) -- Check the Archives Q: What is a "Tier 1" provider? A: There's no point to this discussion as there are too many varying degrees of opinions on what constitutes a Tier 1 network. For example, the editors of this FAQ couldn't even agree on a 'commonly accepted' Tier 1 provider. Q: Are we running out of IPv4 address space? A: Not any time soon - see ARIN's Weekly Routing Table Report. The transition to v6 is a well under way, though, and IETF, ARIN, and NANOG are working with operators to help ensure a smooth transition to the new protocol. Q: I wish people would stop using private addresses on their customer point-to-point links! A: Some organizations use RFC 1918-defined IP addresses as links in their point-to-point networks. This breaks mechanisms like Path MTU discovery and can make traceroutes look funny. If you don't mind the breakage, go ahead and use private addresses. Just don't think that private addressing is a substitute for other security measures. You'll find a summary on using RFC 1918 addresses with respect to security at http://answerpointe.cctec.com/maillists/nanog/historical/0101/msg00040.html. Off-Topic Questions Q: Help - I'm being spammed! A: Please take this question to the lists that focus on spam prevention: http://www.claws-and-paws.com/spam-l/spam-l.html -- spam-l list for spam prevention and discussion http://www.abuse.net/spamtools.html -- spam tools list for software tools that detect spam net.admin.net-abuse.email | net.admin.net-abuse.usenet -- usenet lists Q: Is there any way to add zone(s) to our local DNS without having to restart BIND? A: This is off-topic for NANOG, which is mainly concerned with the root name server network and its operation, and registry updates of the IN-ADDR.ARPA domain. A suitable operational DNS discussion might be about why non-root name servers improperly updated overnight, a notification that such an event occurred, a technical discussion of workarounds, ETTR, or other related issues. A topic or post that would not be suitable for the NANOG discussion list would be something like "My name server is broken. Why?". Remember, NANOG doesn't particularly want to talk about your local DNS - we're concerned with operational aspects of DNS that are mainly root-server related i.e. failed loads, breakdowns, query latency, and other problems. For help with BIND troubleshooting see the Internet Software Consortium's web site: http://www.isc.org/products/BIND Q: How can I find out who's taken a network certification test and what's on it? A: NANOG is not the place to ask about certifications. NANOG is about North American operations of multi-vendor networks -- not about vendor-specific training or techniques. Asking about certifications is very vendor specific, and is not directly related to backbone operations. Plus, some vendor certifications ask you not to talk about the tests, especially the answers, because to them, it is cheating. They even make you sign a form saying you will not talk about the test. NANOG wants to adhere to these principles. There are plenty of mailing lists that are certification related. Just google-search for something like "mailing list CCNA", and you will find quite a few links to mailing lists that can help you prepare for a certification you need. Q: I'm having a problem with my DSL line. A: Try the DSL Reports web site at http://www.dslreports.com/ This site has multiple excellent references on DSL, and is more likely to have an answer to your question. The NANOG list doesn't provide support for end-user topics such as DSL, but focuses on operational support for entire networks. Q: We should all use NAT to save address space! or NAT is evil, everyone migrate to IPv6, quick! or NAT sure makes a great firewall! A: NAT stands for Network Address Translation, which enables private IP internetworks that use nonregistered IP addresses to connect to the Internet. NAT isn't an appropriate topic for NANOG, as its usefulness varies network-by-network and NAT discussions tend to degenerate into flame wars. An excellent starting-point for reading about NAT is RFC 2775, Internet Transparency. Related Mailing Lists and Web Sites Questions in the following categories are off-topic for NANOG and would be better asked on one of the following forums: Router Platforms: Cisco routers http://puck.nether.net/cisco-nsp Juniper routers www.puck.nether.net/juniper-nsp Riverstone routers http://www.nmops.org OS/2 http://www.hethmon.com/isp.html FreeBSD http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html Equipment & Services: Buying/selling new/used equipment ISP-Equipment list at http://isp-lists.isp-planet.com/isp-equipment/ Want-ads ISP-Services list at http://www.ispc.org/lists/ for ISP equipment and services NOCs: New NOC setup inet-ops list at http://www.inet-ops.stealthgeeks.net. NOC job postings http://www.dice.com--job listing site with emphasis on tech jobs Internet consulting inet-consultants list at http://lists.stealthgeeks.net/ for job postings, consulting resources, etc. Spam Prevention: spam-l list at http://www.claws-and-paws.com/spam-l/spam-l.html for spam prevention and discussion Tools: spam tools list at http://www.abuse.net/spamtools.html for software tools that detect spam net.admin.net-abuse.email net.admin.net-abuse.usenet General ISP Lists list(a)inet-access.net Internet access topics iap(a)listserv.nd.edu Small-to-midsize Internet Access Providers com-priv(a)lists.psi.com Internet commercialization and privitization Other See http://www.isp-lists.com for many other topic-specific lists. Networks Outside N. America APNIC: Asia Pacific NIC http://lists.apnic.net/community/lists European ISP coordination issues http://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail-archives/eof-list

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sanity check frame question
by Brennan_Murphy＠NAI.com 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

I have a Frame connection between two sites, A and B. If the router crashes at B, wouldn't A still see the DLCI for B? Is there any scenario where this wouldn't be the case? If B gets blown off the map, shouldnt A's frame interface be in at least an up/down scenario? The only reason I ask is because AT&T has been working on a 17hr outage like this and they are focusing on the CO at site B. When I asked them how clearing up a CO issue would make the DLCI reaappear at site A, they didn't have a straight answer. In my particular case, the remote site B actually has a PVC to A and C and both of those are in a down/down....these are subinterfaces on DS3's with tons of other sites working properly. If the DLCI disappeared, doesn't that suggest that someone deleted the PVC? Any insights would be helpful.... Thanks, -BM PS It would be reasonable to interpret this *partially* as a rant. I'd really like to confirm the PVC vs CO scope of the problem though.

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Re: $12,000 per person registration fee (was RE: Eat this RIAA)
by Ryan Fox 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

On Thu, 2002-08-22 at 12:43, Owen DeLong wrote: > > While I agree with Sean that NANOG is not the place to lobby, I would > also > state that the coordination of a BGP blockade against RIAA's harmful > policies is an internet traffic management issue requiring coordination > among providers to solve. I agree that the coordination of such a blockade meets nanog's charter, but not the politics of whether or not such a blockade is appropriate. Ryan

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RE: Eat this RIAA (or, the war has begun?) - Why not all ISPs?
by No One 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

As an FYI. The RIAA's website seems to be inaccessible from the West Coast. They seem to believe that this is due to some thread on "SlashDot". NoOne@Nowhere.... _____________________________________________________________ The Free Email with so much more! =====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <===== _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email(a)yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag

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RE: Eat this RIAA (or, the war has begun?) - Why not all ISPs?
by Gregory Hicks 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

> From: "Nigel Clarke" <nigel(a)forever-networks.com> > To: "Jeff Ogden" <jogden(a)merit.edu>, <nanog(a)merit.edu> > Subject: RE: Eat this RIAA (or, the war has begun?) - Why not all ISPs? > Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:01:54 -0700 > > > Jeff, > > In a nutshell you're saying do nothing. I actually got the impression that he was recommending that the ISP/backbone providers be careful in what they do since it is the end user that should determine who they communicate with. (I may have read this wrong though.) If an ISP or backbone provider does take any action(s) of the sort discussed, I would make really, really sure that the action is in accordance with the written policies... I also have the impression that, given the current state of litigation (both public and civil), that if a case (suit) were ever raised against NANOG and specific members by the RIAA, that these messages show a clear case for conspiracy... I an NOT a lawyer so you might want to consult with one... My own $0.02 worth. Regards, Gregory Hicks > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of > Jeff Ogden > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 7:42 AM > > At 10:32 PM -0700 8/21/02, Nigel Clarke wrote: > >However, this type of action might not be necessary at all. > > > >Some of the users on this list think RIAA's recent actions are nothing more > >than empty threats. > >Why doesn't NANOG make a few of its own? > > > >A "polite" letter from a NANOG representative should do the trick. > > > Just to state the obvious, no one is authorized to represent NANOG in > this fashion, not even folks here at Merit. NANOG isn't a decision > making organization. NANOG isn't something that can take actions > (other than holding a few meetings each year and managing this e-mail > list). > > Individuals and organizations that participate in NANOG can take > actions, but not in NANOG's name. I'm no lawyer, but I suspect that > lawyers should be consulted before taking individual or coordinated > action of the sort being suggested against another organization. > > Of course IPSs do take action against individuals or organizations > all of the time, but they need to do that based on policies and > procedures that take into account their obligations to their > customers as well as their obligations under the law. > > As an end user I really don't want my ISP to make decisions about who > is allowed to communicate with me or who I am allowed to communicate > with except when those decisions are based on policies designed to > protect me or others from serious problems (DDOS attacks and the > like), even then I want those policies to be written and available so > I can review them, and I want them to be applied fairly. > > As an ISP I really don't want my upstream ISPs to make decisions > about who is allowed to communicate with my network or who my network > is allowed to communicate with except under the conditions outlined > in my agreements with those ISPs. This is important to me if I am in > turn going to be able to meet my obligations to my own end users. > > So, I really don't want the RIAA to tell me or my upstreams who I > can't communicate with, but neither do I want my upstreams to tell me > that I can't communicate with the RIAA or the labels if I (or really > my customers) want to do so. > > -Jeff Ogden > Merit Network > > > At 10:32 PM -0700 8/21/02, Nigel Clarke wrote: > >However, this type of action might not be necessary at all. > > > >Some of the users on this list think RIAA's recent actions are nothing more > >than empty threats. > >Why doesn't NANOG make a few of its own? > > > >A "polite" letter from a NANOG representative should do the trick. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of > >J.A. Terranson > >Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 7:01 PM > >To: Nigel Clarke > >Cc: Richard A Steenbergen; Jerry Eyers; nanog(a)merit.edu > >Subject: RE: Eat this RIAA (or, the war has begun?) - Why not all ISPs? > > > >> On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 09:08:03PM -0700, Nigel Clarke wrote: > >> > > >> > Why don't larger ISPs follow through on this? Simply deny RIAA any > >> > access... > >> > >> And what IPs precisely are you planning to deny? So far its all idle > >> threats, we have no idea where they plan to launch their scans or > hacking > >> attempts from, or even if they have any clue how to hack anything. I > > > highly doubt they'll be attaching riaa.com to it either. > > > >The blocking of any an all directly RIAA sites, feeds, etc, would > >produce an economic reaction. Cut off their sales websites, their > >basic connectivity (how much money do you think it would cost them > >to go back to snail mail today?), their [few] subscription sites. > > > >Let the money do the work. > > > >Yours, > > > >J.A. Terranson > >sysadmin(a)mfn.org > > > >* SPEAKING STRICTLY IN A PERSONAL CAPACITY * at this time anyway. > >We'll see if we can't change that. Tomorrow. Goddamn right! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory Hicks | Principal Systems Engineer Cadence Design Systems | Direct: 408.576.3609 555 River Oaks Pkwy M/S 6B1 | Fax: 408.894.3479 San Jose, CA 95134 | Internet: ghicks(a)cadence.com Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity. Asking the wrong questions is the leading cause of wrong answers "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton You can have it done good, fast, or cheap -- pick any two.

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RE: IETF SMTP Working Group Proposal at smtpng.org
by Robert Blayzor 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

> I'm not a company, I'm Joe Blow private citizen - do you expect me to > pay $100 just to sign up with AOL? If you are Joe Blow private citizen, why would you need to run a mail server? Would you not use your ISP's, at least as a smart relay? If running a mail server is that important to you, just like registering a domain, you'll pay it. -- Robert Blayzor, BOFH INOC, LLC rblayzor(a)inoc.net Profanity is the one language all programmers know best.

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RE: Eat this RIAA (or, the war has begun?) - Why not all ISPs?
by Benjamin J. Carrasco 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

> Blackholing the RIAA and hating them is pointless, that is what they are > there for. Blackholing them accomplishes nothing. > If you want to cause change you need to go after the labels. The labels > are > the member organizations which fund the RIAA. It's the labels who need to > be stopped, the RIAA is just their puppet and shield. However, blackholing is effective in regards to anti-piracy bots that rove the Internet like web spiders attempting to discover copyright violations by verifying P2P data that has been collected elsewhere. Since March of 2001, we have used complaints originating from anti-piracy organizations hired by various labels, most notable Sony, to maintain our own BGP blacklists. Since we have a significant xDSL customer base, we frequently received copyright infringement complaints from these organizations. This policy has eliminated those complaints. We were able to reduce legal exposure and reclaim some of the protection once afforded by open carriage by preventing these intrusive verification tests from even occurring. However, we do act on all complaints that we receive. Ben

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