- NANOG - lists.nanog.org

Internet Core Routing - Ethernet
by Bob Martinez 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

Folks, Recently there was a string about L3 Switches in the core. I really don't like this string because I belive it reflects NANOG in a very bad light and I'm going to speak up here. 1. Why are you talking about vendors when you should be talking about technology on this list. Just like the charters. I would recommend to NANOG "if you disagree, say nay" that any post to NANOG with a vendor name in it be sent to the vendor for comment before being posted to the list. Just my 2 cents here. 2. Ethernet is the technology. If you don't see it, you are blind. Let's talk about Internet core routing in those terms. Sure, all vendors suck, but some suck WAY more than others. I think we all know the names. I would love to be challenged on my knowledge of ethernet as a network engineer. I know way more than I ever did about token ring. Wake up. How many routes can vendor X support with IBGP Nailed Routes? What is the convergence time for 100,000 routes? Does vendor Z have wire-speed ACL,s, PBR, MPLS? 10GigE? How much does that cost? Does vendor Y have any reference customers? Let me see the video? How do I manage CAM? I think we all know who the strong vendors are. There are a few that will be around for awhile. Bobby _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

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Re: Internet Core Routing - Ethernet
by Bob Martinez 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

Valdis: >Hmm... so if somebody posts to the list with the problem, and somebody else >saw >that same issue and got a fix from the vendor, they need to send it to the >vendor for comment, or they can say "Oh, you're being bit by bug (can't say >because it would identify the vendor) in a (vendor model you can't say) >several >hops upstream from you". Is this a problem? Not on my team. > > talk about Internet core routing in those terms. Sure, all vendors >suck, > > but some suck WAY more than others. I think we all know the names. I >would > >And how did we learn the names? Let's see.. Cisco, Juniper, Proteon, Bay, Dude, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You didn't mention my vendor. >add whatever names you want. You probably have your own opinions on what >each piece of gear is good at. I'm pretty much good at any vendor, not great. Some I prefer more than others. I hate wearing my sunglasses to work! >Now, did you actually *buy* and *use* all of that gear yourself? Friends in the community are my most trusted resource. > Or did >you let the common knowledge base called NANOG help you out? It kept me faithful in a single vendor for awhile. I still kinda like that vendor. > Remember that >learning from the mistakes and mishaps of others is a lot cheaper than >doing >them yourself... No mistakes to report, sir. NANOG keeps me informed. It is invaluable when used for operations. The Melissa virus, the WTC disaster, business disasters. I didn't mention the names of service providers, but I consider them to be vendors as well. Let's focus on traffic congestion, resource allocation, problems, fixes, reports, and other issues. A vendor that releases an official press release is more than welcome on NANOG. Up to you gues. I'm just aginst opinionated vendor information coming from NANOG. Moderate yourself. > > now way more than I ever did about token ring. Wake up. How many >routes > > can vendor X support with IBGP Nailed Routes? What is the convergence >time > > for 100,000 routes? Does vendor Z have wire-speed ACL,s, PBR, MPLS? >10GigE? > >Which would you trust for any of these numbers - a salesdroid *saying* a >number, or 5 different people on the NANOG list who have all seen a much >lower-performance number out in the field? Must I answer this? I trust myself more than anyone else, that is for sure. I know how to build a network without making too many mistakes, but I always seem to fix them and keep the customer (user) happy. Usually I fix them before they become big. Covey taught me that. I can build a network with any vendor. Just like you. Vendor does NOT MATTER TO ME! If you're posting on NANOG and you don't feel the same, perhaps you'd better unsubscribe. The other option may be to study Ethernet. >How helpful would this list be if vendors had the right to squelch any >adverse publicity? No one said squelch. I don't see squelching on the charter for NANOG. Announce as loud as you want to. Be like other mailing lists and moderate it. Send it to the vendor first. If the vendor doesn't help you, post it. Just like they do with the abuse lists. This is operational. I doubt if you'll ever need to send anything to NANOG. ALL OF THE VENDORS WANT TO HELP YOU THE BEST THAT THEY CAN! Everything else you said (below) makes you look like the mad scientist from my POV. My R&D budget is down 72% from last year. RPR? RUCRAZY? Look forward to seeing you on the battlefield while I chop you to shreds. Not a single ATM project on the map nowadays huh? MPLS is out there, but who needs it 'cept for certain situations sometimes driven by business needs. When I need it, I hope it is over Ethernet. Wouldn't you rather have a reliable, redundant L2 core with isolated failures and fast recovery? Isn't it just a circuit switched verses packet switched argument? Who cares about the digital wrapper! Ethernet is my digital wrapper of choice because of vendor chipsets supporting it and quality product. It meets my requirements today. My real world requirements. There are many examples of Ethernet in the internet core today. I know of many service providers using another vendor besides the two favorites on NANOG. They have reference customers. I am one of them. I've been using them for over 3 years and I have no major complaints. Ethernet: 2 (Mike Lieber did not challenge Ethernet as a technology) Valdis: 1 Bobby > > 2. Ethernet is the technology. > >Excuse me if I chuckle, having heard THAT before in the last 2 decades or >so. > >I've learned to not take *anybody* seriously when they say something is >"THE" >anything. Structured programming wasn't the end-all, nor was ATM, nor was >Java, nor will XML or Ethernet. Yes, 10G-E will probably see wide >deployment. >But I'll make a prediction - there will be something else coming out to >replace it long before it finishes replacing what's out there now. > >(For bonus points, compare the level-1 media characteristics of the >original >10mbit-over-thickwire with the 10gig-over-optical, and ask yourself if >there's >anything in common other than the name. It's amazingly reminiscent of the >saying "I don't know what language number-crunchers will use 20 years from >now, >but it will be called Fortran"....) >-- > Valdis Kletnieks > Computer Systems Senior Engineer > Virginia Tech > ><< attach3 >> _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

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Re:questionnaire
by CERT(R) Coordination Center 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- *************************************************************************** [NOTE -- THIS IS AN AUTOMATED RESPONSE] Thank you for contacting the CERT(R) Coordination Center. We appreciate your contacting us and consider your communications with us to be very important. Because we focus our response efforts to have the greatest impact on the Internet community, we may be unable to provide you with a personal response to your message. Please review the pointers contained in this message for information which may be of immediate use to you. Section A - CERT/CC Current Activity Section B - Incident Reporting Information Section C - Vulnerability Reporting Information If you need additional information from the CERT/CC, we encourage you to begin by looking at our list of CERT/CC Frequently Asked Questions: http://www.cert.org/faq/cert_faq.html ====================================================================== Section A - CERT/CC Current Activity The CERT/CC Current Activity web page provides a summary list of the most frequent types of incident and vulnerability activity currently being reported to the CERT/CC. Please refer to this regularly updated page to obtain immediate assistance in response to frequently reported activity: http://www.cert.org/current/current_activity.html In addition, the latest CERT/CC documents can be found at: * CERT Advisories - http://www.cert.org/advisories/ * CERT Incident Notes - http://www.cert.org/incident_notes/ * CERT Vulnerability Notes - http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/ * CERT Summaries - http://www.cert.org/summaries/ * CERT Tech Tips - http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/ * What's New - http://www.cert.org/nav/whatsnew.html * CERT/CC Web Site - http://www.cert.org/ For pointers to information about computer viruses and hoaxes, please see: * http://www.cert.org/other_sources/viruses.html ====================================================================== Section B - Incident Reporting Information We appreciate receiving incident reports because it helps us to gain a better understanding of ongoing intruder activities and attack profiles. From the information we receive, we are able to identify and address critical security issues within the Internet community. Because we prioritize our response efforts to have the greatest impact on the Internet community, we are not be able to provide everyone with a personal response. For general information about reporting incidents to the CERT/CC, please see our Incident Reporting Guidelines at: http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/incident_reporting.html To report incidents to the CERT/CC, please send information about the incident in plain text format to cert(a)cert.org. You may wish to use our Incident Reporting Form, located at: http://www.cert.org/reporting/incident_form.txt The CERT/CC considers the following types of incidents to be emergencies: * possible life-threatening activity * attacks on the Internet infrastructure, such as: - root name servers - domain name servers - major archive sites - network access points (NAPs) * widespread automated attacks against Internet sites * new types of attacks or new vulnerabilities If you are reporting such an emergency outside our operational hours - business days between 08:00-17:00 EST/EDT (GMT-5/GMT-4) and require immediate assistance, then please call the CERT hotline: +1 412 268 7090 If you believe the intruder activity is a threat to people's lives or to the Internet infrastructure, please contact us immediately. ====================================================================== Section C - Vulnerability Reporting Information If you would like to report a new type of vulnerability or tool being used by the intruder community, we would be interested in any details that you may have. If you are able, please include any or all of source code, log files of execution, and descriptions of operating dependencies. Please feel free to submit these details in ASCII format files (where possible) of your own design, or if you prefer to use a form, please see the file: http://www.cert.org/reporting/vulnerability_form.txt Please also encrypt the report using PGP if you are able to do so. Instructions are given at the top of the reporting form. ====================================================================== CERT(R) Coordination Center Software Engineering Institute Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA USA 15213-3890 Internet e-mail: cert(a)cert.org (monitored during business hours) Telephone: +1-412-268-7090 24-hour hotline CERT Coordination Center personnel answer business days 08:00-17:00 EST/EDT (GMT-5)/(GMT-4), on call for emergencies during other hours. Fax: +1-412-268-6989 CERT and CERT Coordination Center are registered in U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQCVAwUBPDNbnaCVPMXQI2HJAQHvcwQAljLIFBVtoFPoATWgbU/n5PSuz3cTT6Mw 2BEemoZN7xpQczGMDXgBapzFmTRiq3oVM1aSbpKZ6W8CGjoCQOdxGGQ22kTpFaHK e4j+b2Juym8aOWYuEmXxaw9MVPh79Bh8eIOC3npuYEXbEvlQPRyuDyNCZq5Vwe6b Y2ubokmJD3M= =q5NW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Williams NOC info?
by Jeffrey Wheat 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

Hi all. I am considering purchasing additional transit from Williams and I am wishing to get feedback on the support of their NOC department. Things I am looking for feedback on are 1) Availability of competent staff...i.e., do I have to play relay with an operator when I can hear her asking the tech questions but the tech refusing to get on the phone (I won't say who this is in a public forum), 2) response time of NOC on weekends and holidays and 3) ease of reaching the NOC (limited menu hell or transfer from one person to the next to the next. Please reply to me in person in order to limit any bashing if there is to be any... Many many thanks in advance, Jeffrey --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002

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RE: AP IX locations
by James Spenceley 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

|I'm looking to improve my connectivity into the AP region, in |a cost effective [i.e. for as little as possible :-)]. I have |ruled out buying transit as it doesn't help the issue that I'm |trying to resolve, so I was wondering if there was a location/IXP |in the AP region that would enable me to interconnect with |as many AP carriers as possible. sadly the best spot to interconnect is not in the AP region, its in Palo Alto. |Neil J. McRae - Alive and Kicking -- James

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cox cable still
by Scott Granados 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

Was wondering if anyone with clue from Cox is listening. My newly assigned arin block, 69.1.64.0/20 doesn't seem to be making it in to your filters even with the proper filed bbjects:). Or maybe I'm missing something obvious.

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AP IX locations
by neil＠DOMINO.ORG 29 Sep '02

29 Sep '02

I'm looking to improve my connectivity into the AP region, in a cost effective [i.e. for as little as possible :-)]. I have ruled out buying transit as it doesn't help the issue that I'm trying to resolve, so I was wondering if there was a location/IXP in the AP region that would enable me to interconnect with as many AP carriers as possible. I'd appreciate if anyone has a view if they could let me know [off list]. I'll post a summary if people are interested. Regards, Neil. -- Neil J. McRae - Alive and Kicking neil(a)DOMINO.ORG

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finds and other data frommy report on economics of peering and transit
by Gordon Cook 29 Sep '02

29 Sep '02

At the end of August when I posted news about my interviews with Bill Woodcock's views on synthetic path analysis and the economics of peering and requested additional help from peering coordinators I promised a brief report. Response from Nanog was excellent. 16 additional folk joined mail list making a total of 32 - 25 of whom made contributions to the discussion. you will find the introductory article containing my complete findings, a list of the 25 contributors and the complete table of contents at http://cookreport.com/11.08-09.shtml I hesitate to say "our" findings but I did share drafts with list members who made significant criticisms and contributions which i incorporated. -- ======================================================== The COOK Report on Internet, 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA (609) 882-2572 (phone & fax) cook(a)cookreport.com Subscription info & prices at http://cookreport.com/subscriptions.shtml Summary of content for 10 years at http://cookreport.com/past_issues.shtml Info on Economics of Peering, Transit & IXs November - December 118 pages available at http://cookreport.com/11.08-09.shtml ========================================================

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The Cidr Report
by cidr-report＠potaroo.net 28 Sep '02

28 Sep '02

This report has been generated at Sun Sep 29 06:32:47 2002 AEST. The report analyses the BGP Routing Table of the Route-Views router and generates a report on aggregation potential within the table. Check http://www.cidr-report.org for a current version of this report. Recent Table History Date Prefixes CIDR Agg 22-09-02 121438 87731 23-09-02 121323 87980 24-09-02 121407 88246 25-09-02 121566 88349 26-09-02 121459 87822 27-09-02 122059 87644 28-09-02 123673 89338 29-09-02 123685 89454 Possible Bogus Routes 10.5.5.0/30 AS11537 ABILENE University Corporation for Advanced Internet Development 10.11.11.0/30 AS11537 ABILENE University Corporation for Advanced Internet Development 10.33.0.0/23 AS174 PSINET PSINet Inc. 10.33.8.0/24 AS174 PSINET PSINet Inc. 39.0.0.0/8 AS4554 EP0-BLK-ASNBLOCK-4 Exchange Point Blocks AS Summary 13991 Number of ASes in routing system 5313 Number of ASes announcing only one prefix 1940 Largest number of prefixes announced by an AS AS174 : PSINET PSINet Inc. 73212416 Largest address span announced by an AS (/32s) AS568 : SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA Aggregation Summary The algorithm used in this report proposes aggregation only when there is a precise match using the AS path, so as to preserve traffic transit policies. Aggregation is also proposed across non-advertised address space ('holes'). --- 29Sep02 --- ASnum NetsNow NetsAggr NetGain % Gain Description Table 123655 89454 34201 27.7% All ASes AS209 1818 1042 776 42.7% ASN-QWEST Qwest AS3908 1124 622 502 44.7% SUPERNETASBLK SuperNet, Inc. AS701 1786 1286 500 28.0% ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc. AS2548 1582 1119 463 29.3% ICIX-MD-AS Business Internet, Inc. AS7132 603 140 463 76.8% SBIS-AS Southwestern Bell Internet Services AS174 1940 1520 420 21.6% PSINET PSINet Inc. AS7018 1360 959 401 29.5% ATT-INTERNET4 AT&T WorldNet Services AS1221 1306 940 366 28.0% ASN-TELSTRA Telstra Pty Ltd AS4323 647 305 342 52.9% TW-COMM Time Warner Communications, Inc. AS7843 712 410 302 42.4% ADELPHIA-AS Adelphia Corp. AS852 758 458 300 39.6% ASN852 Telus Advanced Communications AS6197 383 97 286 74.7% BATI-ATL BellSouth Network Solutions, Inc AS7046 585 312 273 46.7% UUNET-CUSTOMER UUNET Technologies, Inc. AS18566 273 4 269 98.5% COVAD Covad Communications AS4151 279 32 247 88.5% USDA-1 USDA AS4355 383 145 238 62.1% ERMS-EARTHLNK EARTHLINK, INC AS1 669 447 222 33.2% GNTY-1 Genuity AS6347 393 173 220 56.0% DIAMOND SAVVIS Communications Corporation AS4814 255 37 218 85.5% CHINANET-BEIJING-AP China Telecom (Group)Beijing Telecom CompanyBeijing China AS705 409 199 210 51.3% ASN-ALTERNET UUNET Technologies, Inc. AS1239 849 652 197 23.2% SprintLink Sprint AS22927 215 20 195 90.7% AR-TEAR2-LACNIC TELEFONICA DE ARGENTINA AS690 518 325 193 37.3% NSFNET-T3-RT-AS Merit Network Inc. AS6595 250 68 182 72.8% DODDSEUR DoD Education Activity Network Assistance Center AS4134 302 122 180 59.6% ERX-CHINALINK Data Communications Bureau AS2386 421 243 178 42.3% INS-AS AT&T Data Communications Services AS3356 389 212 177 45.5% LEVEL3 Level 3 Communications, LLC AS1791 184 21 163 88.6% SPRINTLINK3 Sprint Government Systems Division AS6327 180 20 160 88.9% SHAWFIBER Shaw Fiberlink Limited AS376 337 184 153 45.4% RISQ-AS Reseau Interordinateurs Scientique Quebecois (RISQ) Total 20910 12114 8796 42.1% Top 30 total Please see http://www.cidr-report.org for the full report ------------------------------------ Copies of this report are mailed to: nanog(a)merit.edu eof-list(a)ripe.net apops(a)lists.apnic.net routing-wg(a)ripe.net afnog(a)afnog.org

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Re: Internet Core Routing - Ethernet
by Bob Martinez 28 Sep '02

28 Sep '02

Mike: Chill dude. Topic is Ethernet. Start your own post. I like you posts. Care to challenge Ethernet in the Internet Core? Why are you so attached to a specific vendor at a specific time. Talk it out with the folks that pissed you off before. Not my problem man. Ethernet. Sometimes I laugh out loud when I read some of you guys's posts. Best 10 minutes of my day. Keeps me well informed of what my mental superiors are up to. And no, I'm not the CEO of any company for God Sakes! I'd be trying to cure world hunger from my beach house, and automated toys all over the place... Bobby Martinez. >From: Mike Leber <mleber(a)he.net> >To: Bob Martinez <bobmartinezzz(a)hotmail.com> >CC: nanog(a)merit.edu >Subject: Re: Internet Core Routing - Ethernet >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:20:24 -0700 (PDT) > > >On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Bob Martinez wrote: > > 1. Why are you talking about vendors when you should be talking about > > technology on this list. Just like the charters. I would recommend to > > NANOG "if you disagree, say nay" that any post to NANOG with a vendor >name > > in it be sent to the vendor for comment before being posted to the list. > > Just my 2 cents here. > >Operations has alot to do with experience with specific equipment, more so >then it does abstracted conversations about theoretical configurations. > >There are abundant protocols that lack implementation. Many people >believe they can instantiate an implementation by writing an RFC, or so >you would get the impression by reading RFCs. > >Regarding "be sent to the vendor for comment before being posted", your >question about "Does vendor Z have wire-speed X?" has produced outright >lies for the last 10 years. There is *always* a catch to any such claims >regarding routers. > >Take posts to NANOG with a grain of salt. There is a large range of >experience. > >BTW, you listed a bunch of questions. Please post a specific one you want >to know about. You might get it answered. > >+----------------- H U R R I C A N E - E L E C T R I C -----------------+ >| Mike Leber Direct Internet Connections Voice 510 580 4100 | >| Hurricane Electric Web Hosting Colocation Fax 510 580 4151 | >| mleber(a)he.net http://www.he.net | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

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