I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber. My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time). Their web site highlights it fairly proudly. I'm aware that availability varies. I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP
Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM Subject: Frontier Dark Fiber I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber. My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time). Their web site highlights it fairly proudly. I'm aware that availability varies. I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP
Your rights under the ICA are dead. Since 2002 you were only able to order it if one end was in a tier 3 wirecenter, and it was killed in 2021 as an orderable product. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25254/modernizing-... There's an 8 year transition for existing unbundled dark fiber (February 28, 2029). Dark fiber loops were dead in 2002 under the TRRO. On 7/13/22 07:45, Mike Hammett wrote:
Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *To: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM *Subject: *Frontier Dark Fiber
I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.
My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time).
Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.
I'm aware that availability varies.
I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
The ICA was signed in 2003 or 2004 with dark fiber in it. Ahh, but maybe 2021 killed it. Well, most of the ones I'm looking at would be interoffice, not so much loops. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Timmins" <paul@telcodata.us> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:45:37 PM Subject: Re: Frontier Dark Fiber Your rights under the ICA are dead. Since 2002 you were only able to order it if one end was in a tier 3 wirecenter, and it was killed in 2021 as an orderable product. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25254/modernizing-... There's an 8 year transition for existing unbundled dark fiber (February 28, 2029). Dark fiber loops were dead in 2002 under the TRRO. On 7/13/22 07:45, Mike Hammett wrote: Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM Subject: Frontier Dark Fiber I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber. My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time). Their web site highlights it fairly proudly. I'm aware that availability varies. I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP
Here's the list of CLLI codes where you're no longer able to order dark fiber: https://www.fcc.gov/clli-code-list It seems odd as I look through there, finding COs with no competitive fiber and yet, they're on the list. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Timmins" <paul@telcodata.us> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:45:37 PM Subject: Re: Frontier Dark Fiber Your rights under the ICA are dead. Since 2002 you were only able to order it if one end was in a tier 3 wirecenter, and it was killed in 2021 as an orderable product. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25254/modernizing-... There's an 8 year transition for existing unbundled dark fiber (February 28, 2029). Dark fiber loops were dead in 2002 under the TRRO. On 7/13/22 07:45, Mike Hammett wrote: Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM Subject: Frontier Dark Fiber I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber. My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time). Their web site highlights it fairly proudly. I'm aware that availability varies. I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP
When working with ILECs it is important to differentiate what must be offered via ICAs and what is offered commercially. We for example sell a ton commercially but effectively none through our interconnection agreements anymore. (we being Ziply Fiber in WA/OR/ID/MT) From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+john=vanoppen.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 2:24 PM To: Paul Timmins <paul@telcodata.us> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Frontier Dark Fiber Here's the list of CLLI codes where you're no longer able to order dark fiber: https://www.fcc.gov/clli-code-list It seems odd as I look through there, finding COs with no competitive fiber and yet, they're on the list. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ________________________________ From: "Paul Timmins" <paul@telcodata.us> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:45:37 PM Subject: Re: Frontier Dark Fiber Your rights under the ICA are dead. Since 2002 you were only able to order it if one end was in a tier 3 wirecenter, and it was killed in 2021 as an orderable product. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25254/modernizing-... There's an 8 year transition for existing unbundled dark fiber (February 28, 2029). Dark fiber loops were dead in 2002 under the TRRO. On 7/13/22 07:45, Mike Hammett wrote: Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[Image removed by sender.]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[Image removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[Image removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ________________________________ From: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net><mailto:nanog@ics-il.net> To: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM Subject: Frontier Dark Fiber I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber. My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time). Their web site highlights it fairly proudly. I'm aware that availability varies. I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[Image removed by sender.]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[Image removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[Image removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
Yes; There was absolutely some outright fraud here. Fraud, that even when pointed out exactly to the FCC staffers handling this, was simply ignored. This fraud claims in the rural parts of mendocino county, where I have operated for 20 years, claims there is 'competitive fiber' within 500' of some of the CO's I would _die_ to have fiber access in, and which has never ever been possible. The fscking game playing here is unbelievable. ATT, how far you have fallen...and taking down America with you. On 7/22/22 14:23, Mike Hammett wrote:
Here's the list of CLLI codes where you're no longer able to order dark fiber:
https://www.fcc.gov/clli-code-list
It seems odd as I look through there, finding COs with no competitive fiber and yet, they're on the list.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Paul Timmins" <paul@telcodata.us> *To: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:45:37 PM *Subject: *Re: Frontier Dark Fiber
Your rights under the ICA are dead. Since 2002 you were only able to order it if one end was in a tier 3 wirecenter, and it was killed in 2021 as an orderable product.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25254/modernizing-...
There's an 8 year transition for existing unbundled dark fiber (February 28, 2029). Dark fiber loops were dead in 2002 under the TRRO.
On 7/13/22 07:45, Mike Hammett wrote:
Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *To: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM *Subject: *Frontier Dark Fiber
I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.
My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time).
Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.
I'm aware that availability varies.
I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
Unless you are a *significant* sized regional operator in an area that overlaps with Frontier's ILEC territory is it unlikely in the extreme that they would want to rent you some dark fiber or issue a quote for it. Or some kind of very large enterprise customer that Frontier will take seriously like a Fortune 500 sized manufacturing entity. On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 at 04:41, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.
My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time).
Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.
I'm aware that availability varies.
I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber, since air distribution fan out is all GPON, is it not? If their fanout was active ethernet it might be a different story but... Cheers, -- jra On July 13, 2022 7:40:47 AM EDT, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.
My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time).
Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.
I'm aware that availability varies.
I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
On 8/3/22 11:16, Jay Ashworth wrote:
I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber, since air distribution fan out is all GPON, is it not?
If their fanout was active ethernet it might be a different story but...
They have access to/control of a large amount of mid-mile and long-haul fiber built by/as GTE and Verizon. Additionally, while their resi/soho distribution is all PON, they do have some excess fiber fairly deep into their network in most markets and actively offer active-E service on it for the right price (it can even occasionally be competitive). I imagine they'd sell dark for the right price as well, though you may not like that "right" price. -- Brandon Martin Mothic Technologies 317-565-1357 x7000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Martin" <lists.nanog@monmotha.net>
On 8/3/22 11:16, Jay Ashworth wrote:
I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber, since air distribution fan out is all GPON, is it not?
If their fanout was active ethernet it might be a different story but...
They have access to/control of a large amount of mid-mile and long-haul fiber built by/as GTE and Verizon. Additionally, while their resi/soho distribution is all PON, they do have some excess fiber fairly deep into their network in most markets and actively offer active-E service on it for the right price (it can even occasionally be competitive). I imagine they'd sell dark for the right price as well, though you may not like that "right" price.
Yeah, FU pricing ain't uncommon. Thanks for the clarification. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Any regional ILEC spanning at least a few counties in size will have some amount of inter-CO dark fiber, whether they want to sell it to any 3rd parties is entirely another question. On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 at 08:17, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber, since air distribution fan out is all GPON, is it not?
If their fanout was active ethernet it might be a different story but...
Cheers, -- jra
On July 13, 2022 7:40:47 AM EDT, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.
My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time).
Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.
I'm aware that availability varies.
I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
"I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber loops to end user customers at any kind of reasonable product-scale". Sorry; didn't know I had to show my work here. :-) Cheers, -- jra ----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> To: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2022 2:24:45 PM Subject: Re: Frontier Dark Fiber
Any regional ILEC spanning at least a few counties in size will have some amount of inter-CO dark fiber, whether they want to sell it to any 3rd parties is entirely another question.
On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 at 08:17, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber, since air distribution fan out is all GPON, is it not?
If their fanout was active ethernet it might be a different story but...
Cheers, -- jra
On July 13, 2022 7:40:47 AM EDT, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.
My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time).
Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.
I'm aware that availability varies.
I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
participants (8)
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Brandon Martin -
Eric Kuhnke -
Jay Ashworth -
Jay R. Ashworth
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John van Oppen -
Mike -
Mike Hammett -
Paul Timmins