Re: ASE - 100 Gig Wave
CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list. On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
Rod-
Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/
14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following
subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers.
I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case :
- Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from.
I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about.
I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here.
I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 11:28 AM Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> wrote:
Actually, that language was intended to prohibit soliciting business and not asking for help. I have some hard words to describe like Shane Ronan, but I will forbear.
I suggest you cease and desist before this gets ugly. Obviously you are underemployed.
Get some work to do.
Best,
-R.
------------------------------ *From:* sronan@ronan-online.com <sronan@ronan-online.com> *Sent:* Thursday, March 18, 2021 4:24 PM *To:* Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com>; NANOG Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org> *Cc:* Shane Ronan <shane@ronan-online.com> *Subject:* Re: ASE - 100 Gig Wave
Please review the Mailing List policies which specifically prohibit commercial discussions on the list. I would ask the list moderators to chime in here please
Shane
On Mar 18, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> wrote:
People post requests all the time. You are free to block me. And I know the majority of uses disagree with you.
------------------------------ *From:* Shane Ronan <shane@ronan-online.com> *Sent:* Thursday, March 18, 2021 4:11 PM *To:* Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> *Subject:* Re: ASE - 100 Gig Wave
NANOG is not a service for receiving details on cable paths for commercial purposes. Please find somewhere else to collect this information.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:54 AM Rod Beck < rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> wrote:
This cable is tapped out and I need a 100 gig wave from Hong Kong to Singapore. 3 year term.
Roderick Beck Global Network Capacity Procurement
United Cable Company www.unitedcablecompany.com https://unitedcablecompany.com/video/ New York City & Budapest
rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com
Budapest: 36-70-605-5144
NJ: 908-452-8183
[image: 1467221477350_image005.png]
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
Rod-
Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/
14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following
subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers.
I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case :
- Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from.
I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about.
I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here.
I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults.
If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them... #AFewDaysTooEarly ^_^;; Matt
Perhaps the sales, marketing and 'business development' people who've never typed "enable" or "configure" into a router a single day in their lives might be better served with a dedicated list that is mission focused on bizdev, and not operational issues. On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 3:29 PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
Rod-
Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/
14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following
subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers.
I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case :
- Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from.
I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about.
I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here.
I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults.
If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them...
#AFewDaysTooEarly
^_^;;
Matt
The Jews in the 19th century were given a neighborhood in each European city. It was called the Ghetto. Some of us would prefer to live in a Ghetto where people can ask for specific assistance on network capacity or route problems and the like. An affiliated, but separate list. Many of us who have no interest in programming routers (my interests include physics and Medieval music) would gladly never post again in the main forum. The Ghetto would allow people to post articles about new networks or pose questions for help on finding capacity. I would not have delete each day 99% of NANOG messages or be subjected to flame fights. Moderators could keep their main constituency happy by maintaining a very narrow focus. The Purists would be delighted. The overworked IT guy or gal would never see any other post about how to extend a 100 gig wave to Mars. But there would be no marketing of boxes or networks in the Ghetto. No posting of I got $1500 wave available between 1 Wilshire and 60 Hudson. Marketing simply drives good people out. Just a place where people sourcing can ask questions and people who want to help can do so without breaking rules and being threatened. NANOG does depend on telecom sales to finance its real conferences. So, a complete divorce is unnecessary and counterproductive given that sales already moved for the most part to Linkedin. But there is a wealth of knowledge among engineers and network managers on who has what and how to get from point A to point Z. Some of those people are willing to share it and there should be a dedicated place to do so. For example, Mehmet provided valuable assistance which will benefit some of my customers. -R. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 12:43 AM To: Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>; admins@nanog.org <admins@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...? Perhaps the sales, marketing and 'business development' people who've never typed "enable" or "configure" into a router a single day in their lives might be better served with a dedicated list that is mission focused on bizdev, and not operational issues. On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 3:29 PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com<mailto:mpetach@netflight.com>> wrote: On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote: CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list. On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote: Rod- Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ 14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers. I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case : - Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from. I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about. I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here. I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults. If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them... #AFewDaysTooEarly ^_^;; Matt
i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that. randy --- randy@psg.com `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header butchery
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 2:07 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that.
randy
+1 (or as much more as I can be credited for)
..Allen
+1 from the peanut gallery On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 2:30 PM Allen Kitchen < allenmckinleykitchen@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 2:07 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that.
randy
+1 (or as much more as I can be credited for)
..Allen
On 20/03/2021 21:34, Stan Barber wrote: +1 -Hank
+1 from the peanut gallery
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 2:30 PM Allen Kitchen <allenmckinleykitchen@gmail.com <mailto:allenmckinleykitchen@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 2:07 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com <mailto:randy@psg.com>> wrote:
i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that.
randy
+1 (or as much more as I can be credited for)
..Allen
:: The board has been thinking about enhancements to the NANOG list for a couple of years now Please let me put in my $0.02. I would like to ask that there're no changes. For myself, it has been 24 years here and I see no problems. I enjoy the off-topic as much as the on-topic...most times. If a person can't figure out how to filter out a subject or sender in an email client they will have way more problems trying to be a network engineer on anything but the tiniest of networks. I would think a person who can't figure out how use filters on a mail client would rather configure routers through the HTTP GUI, rather than the CLI. Of course, one would not find an HTTP GUI on the bigger networks dealt with on this list; only on the tiny networks. So they're beginning learners and are, of course, welcome. They will lean a lot, just as I did in the early days and do every day now days. In agreement with others here, randy's comment: "i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that." Is spot on. And last, John Covici also hit the nail on the head and all network engineers will recognize his comment "Keep it simple, please" as a very nice way of saying KISS, which any network engineer who has had time on a network will realize as the basic design principle. scott
Here here ! -- J. Hellenthal The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
On Mar 20, 2021, at 19:13, scott <surfer@mauigateway.com> wrote:
:: The board has been thinking about enhancements to the NANOG list for a couple of years now
Please let me put in my $0.02. I would like to ask that there're no changes. For myself, it has been 24 years here and I see no problems. I enjoy the off-topic as much as the on-topic...most times. If a person can't figure out how to filter out a subject or sender in an email client they will have way more problems trying to be a network engineer on anything but the tiniest of networks. I would think a person who can't figure out how use filters on a mail client would rather configure routers through the HTTP GUI, rather than the CLI. Of course, one would not find an HTTP GUI on the bigger networks dealt with on this list; only on the tiny networks. So they're beginning learners and are, of course, welcome. They will lean a lot, just as I did in the early days and do every day now days.
In agreement with others here, randy's comment:
"i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that."
Is spot on.
And last, John Covici also hit the nail on the head and all network engineers will recognize his comment "Keep it simple, please" as a very nice way of saying KISS, which any network engineer who has had time on a network will realize as the basic design principle.
scott
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 5:13 PM scott <surfer@mauigateway.com> wrote: [...]
Of course, one would not find an HTTP GUI on the bigger networks dealt with on this list; only on the tiny networks. So they're beginning learners and are, of course, welcome. They will lean a lot, just as I did in the early days and do every day now days.
[...]
scott
Let's see... Google: Gmail Microsoft: Hotmail/Outlook/Office365 Yahoo/VerizonMedia: Yahoo Mail I'd have to say, there's some pretty big networks on this list that use HTTP GUIs for their email. Of course, you might be big enough that you look down on the networks of Google, Microsoft, and VZM as "tiny networks" -- in which case, you're definitely entitled to your opinion, as all 8000 pound gorillas that look down on the puny 800 lb gorillas are. ;) Matt
On 3/20/2021 2:47 PM, Matthew Petach wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 5:13 PM scott <surfer@mauigateway.com <mailto:surfer@mauigateway.com>> wrote: [...]
Of course, one would not find an HTTP GUI on the bigger networks dealt with on this list; only on the tiny networks. So they're beginning learners and are, of course, welcome. They will lean a lot, just as I did in the early days and do every day now days.
[...]
Let's see... Google: Gmail Microsoft: Hotmail/Outlook/Office365 Yahoo/VerizonMedia: Yahoo Mail
I'd have to say, there's some pretty big networks on this list that use HTTP GUIs for their email.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You missed the sentence just before that: "I would think a person who can't figure out how use filters on a mail client would rather configure routers through the HTTP GUI, rather than the CLI." scott
...not to mention that all mature networks are moving more towards GUI front ends for their automated network. As the complexity of a network increases, CLI access becomes considerably more risky. The idea that "real engineers use the CLI" is dinosaur thinking that will eventually land those with that philosophy out of a job. Just my personal $.02 (though I'm certainly not alone in my opinion). But I'd like to reiterate that the board's goal with modernization is not to alienate anyone from the existing community by forcing them into a web-interface. Discourse is under evaluation, and if it doesn't accomplish the goal we'll try something else or build our own tool. Dave On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:52 PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 5:13 PM scott <surfer@mauigateway.com> wrote: [...]
Of course, one would not find an HTTP GUI on the bigger networks dealt with on this list; only on the tiny networks. So they're beginning learners and are, of course, welcome. They will lean a lot, just as I did in the early days and do every day now days.
[...]
scott
Let's see... Google: Gmail Microsoft: Hotmail/Outlook/Office365 Yahoo/VerizonMedia: Yahoo Mail
I'd have to say, there's some pretty big networks on this list that use HTTP GUIs for their email.
Of course, you might be big enough that you look down on the networks of Google, Microsoft, and VZM as "tiny networks" -- in which case, you're definitely entitled to your opinion, as all 8000 pound gorillas that look down on the puny 800 lb gorillas are. ;)
Matt
It's one thing to use a GUI tool when it's convenient and quick. I think anyone that's ever experienced setting up a Unifi controller would probably prefer provisioning a new 802.11ac AP from the GUI rather than doing it manually at a command line. But it's another thing to consider that we have a whole new generation of people who *don't know and don't care* what's going underneath the GUI and might not be able to do anything with the OS running on bare metal, if they have to. If we intend to abstract away configuring devices to a GUI level only and not care about what's going on under the hood, then it's time for everyone to just run out and renew their MCSE certifications and buy Meraki subscriptions. On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:35 PM David Siegel <arizonagull@gmail.com> wrote:
...not to mention that all mature networks are moving more towards GUI front ends for their automated network. As the complexity of a network increases, CLI access becomes considerably more risky.
The idea that "real engineers use the CLI" is dinosaur thinking that will eventually land those with that philosophy out of a job. Just my personal $.02 (though I'm certainly not alone in my opinion).
But I'd like to reiterate that the board's goal with modernization is not to alienate anyone from the existing community by forcing them into a web-interface. Discourse is under evaluation, and if it doesn't accomplish the goal we'll try something else or build our own tool.
Dave
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:52 PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 5:13 PM scott <surfer@mauigateway.com> wrote: [...]
Of course, one would not find an HTTP GUI on the bigger networks dealt with on this list; only on the tiny networks. So they're beginning learners and are, of course, welcome. They will lean a lot, just as I did in the early days and do every day now days.
[...]
scott
Let's see... Google: Gmail Microsoft: Hotmail/Outlook/Office365 Yahoo/VerizonMedia: Yahoo Mail
I'd have to say, there's some pretty big networks on this list that use HTTP GUIs for their email.
Of course, you might be big enough that you look down on the networks of Google, Microsoft, and VZM as "tiny networks" -- in which case, you're definitely entitled to your opinion, as all 8000 pound gorillas that look down on the puny 800 lb gorillas are. ;)
Matt
Can we end this troll here -- J. Hellenthal The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
On Mar 20, 2021, at 20:48, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
It's one thing to use a GUI tool when it's convenient and quick. I think anyone that's ever experienced setting up a Unifi controller would probably prefer provisioning a new 802.11ac AP from the GUI rather than doing it manually at a command line.
But it's another thing to consider that we have a whole new generation of people who don't know and don't care what's going underneath the GUI and might not be able to do anything with the OS running on bare metal, if they have to.
If we intend to abstract away configuring devices to a GUI level only and not care about what's going on under the hood, then it's time for everyone to just run out and renew their MCSE certifications and buy Meraki subscriptions.
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:35 PM David Siegel <arizonagull@gmail.com> wrote:
...not to mention that all mature networks are moving more towards GUI front ends for their automated network. As the complexity of a network increases, CLI access becomes considerably more risky.
The idea that "real engineers use the CLI" is dinosaur thinking that will eventually land those with that philosophy out of a job. Just my personal $.02 (though I'm certainly not alone in my opinion).
But I'd like to reiterate that the board's goal with modernization is not to alienate anyone from the existing community by forcing them into a web-interface. Discourse is under evaluation, and if it doesn't accomplish the goal we'll try something else or build our own tool.
Dave
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:52 PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 5:13 PM scott <surfer@mauigateway.com> wrote: [...]
Of course, one would not find an HTTP GUI on the bigger networks dealt with on this list; only on the tiny networks. So they're beginning learners and are, of course, welcome. They will lean a lot, just as I did in the early days and do every day now days. [...] scott
Let's see... Google: Gmail Microsoft: Hotmail/Outlook/Office365 Yahoo/VerizonMedia: Yahoo Mail
I'd have to say, there's some pretty big networks on this list that use HTTP GUIs for their email.
Of course, you might be big enough that you look down on the networks of Google, Microsoft, and VZM as "tiny networks" -- in which case, you're definitely entitled to your opinion, as all 8000 pound gorillas that look down on the puny 800 lb gorillas are. ;)
Matt
I would love to have HTTP GUI that just does all of the dirty work. However, a sufficient number of people affiliated with that organization do indeed need to be able to CLI their way through the troubleshooting process for when the HTTP GUI inevitably fails (everything inevitably fails). ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> To: "David Siegel" <arizonagull@gmail.com>, "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2021 8:45:38 PM Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...? It's one thing to use a GUI tool when it's convenient and quick. I think anyone that's ever experienced setting up a Unifi controller would probably prefer provisioning a new 802.11ac AP from the GUI rather than doing it manually at a command line. But it's another thing to consider that we have a whole new generation of people who don't know and don't care what's going underneath the GUI and might not be able to do anything with the OS running on bare metal, if they have to. If we intend to abstract away configuring devices to a GUI level only and not care about what's going on under the hood, then it's time for everyone to just run out and renew their MCSE certifications and buy Meraki subscriptions. On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:35 PM David Siegel < arizonagull@gmail.com > wrote: ...not to mention that all mature networks are moving more towards GUI front ends for their automated network. As the complexity of a network increases, CLI access becomes considerably more risky. The idea that "real engineers use the CLI" is dinosaur thinking that will eventually land those with that philosophy out of a job. Just my personal $.02 (though I'm certainly not alone in my opinion). But I'd like to reiterate that the board's goal with modernization is not to alienate anyone from the existing community by forcing them into a web-interface. Discourse is under evaluation, and if it doesn't accomplish the goal we'll try something else or build our own tool. Dave On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:52 PM Matthew Petach < mpetach@netflight.com > wrote: <blockquote> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 5:13 PM scott < surfer@mauigateway.com > wrote: [...] <blockquote> Of course, one would not find an HTTP GUI on the bigger networks dealt with on this list; only on the tiny networks. So they're beginning learners and are, of course, welcome. They will lean a lot, just as I did in the early days and do every day now days. [...] <blockquote> scott </blockquote> Let's see... Google: Gmail Microsoft: Hotmail/Outlook/Office365 Yahoo/VerizonMedia: Yahoo Mail I'd have to say, there's some pretty big networks on this list that use HTTP GUIs for their email. Of course, you might be big enough that you look down on the networks of Google, Microsoft, and VZM as "tiny networks" -- in which case, you're definitely entitled to your opinion, as all 8000 pound gorillas that look down on the puny 800 lb gorillas are. ;) Matt </blockquote> </blockquote>
On 3/22/21 15:14, Mike Hammett wrote:
I would love to have HTTP GUI that just does all of the dirty work. However, a sufficient number of people affiliated with that organization do indeed need to be able to CLI their way through the troubleshooting process for when the HTTP GUI inevitably fails (everything inevitably fails).
And this is where it tends to fall flat - when the GUI fails and an engineer can no longer setup a peering session with CLI. The GUI is written in code, much of which will be via CLI. So we can't really run away from CLI, unless we are saying that CLI is reserved for those who use it to build the GUI, and not for those for whom the GUI is being built. You can also implement a reasonable amount of automation without a GUI. My goal is to babysit as few layers as possible. Mark.
On 3/21/21 03:45, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
But it's another thing to consider that we have a whole new generation of people who /don't know and don't care/ what's going underneath the GUI and might not be able to do anything with the OS running on bare metal, if they have to.
If we intend to abstract away configuring devices to a GUI level only and not care about what's going on under the hood, then it's time for everyone to just run out and renew their MCSE certifications and buy Meraki subscriptions.
This has been a longstanding concern of mine with the next batch of network engineers. The GUI may have a check-box that says "ATT Bit". It is there to click, or not click. But why it should or shouldn't be clicked is the looming danger we are setting up the new blood for. Mark.
"But why it should or shouldn't be clicked..." Sorta like most man pages. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tinka" <mark@tinka.africa> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2021 3:11:44 AM Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...? On 3/21/21 03:45, Eric Kuhnke wrote: But it's another thing to consider that we have a whole new generation of people who don't know and don't care what's going underneath the GUI and might not be able to do anything with the OS running on bare metal, if they have to. If we intend to abstract away configuring devices to a GUI level only and not care about what's going on under the hood, then it's time for everyone to just run out and renew their MCSE certifications and buy Meraki subscriptions. This has been a longstanding concern of mine with the next batch of network engineers. The GUI may have a check-box that says "ATT Bit". It is there to click, or not click. But why it should or shouldn't be clicked is the looming danger we are setting up the new blood for. Mark.
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 09:20:14AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
"But why it should or shouldn't be clicked..."
Sorta like most man pages.
They both need prior knowledge to use. We tend to simplify things in order to save time but then the new generation comes in and thinks the simple things it's all there is and have no willingness to go back in time and accumulate "useless" knowledge. It is useless because the problems it fixes were already fixed but it is paramount in understanding whats behind the simple things. Knowledge can only be simplified so much and there's no shortcut to accumulating it. (hence why most people will prefer to just use the tools) The generational gap is not an issue it is how things need to be. The network engineering the younger generation deals with is not the same networking the old generation deals with but built upon this old networks. This two generations do not need the same knowledge and it is in each others best interest that they stay separated. Although we would gladly help someone that is obviously putting in the effort and is looking to learn we have not volunteered to be teachers and some people need to understand that we prefer to keep it simple because we have no time to waste. It is easy to believe that the method you are using is the one but eventually the good ones will have to pass the test of time which mailling lists and a plethora of the old tools successfully did. --
On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:39:49 -0000, Emil Pfeffer said:
The generational gap is not an issue it is how things need to be. The network engineering the younger generation deals with is not the same networking the old generation deals with but built upon this old networks. This two generations do not need the same knowledge and it is in each others best interest that they stay separated.
The problem comes when the younger generation *does* need access to the same knowledge - and the older generation is unreachable and/or actually gone.
On 3/23/21 22:33, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
The problem comes when the younger generation *does* need access to the same knowledge - and the older generation is unreachable and/or actually gone.
I've been passionate about keeping the work shop style of the early 2000's going, but it's getting harder and harder to keep the teachers of then interested. And, fewer and fewer youth are looking to fill that space. In some ways, delaying the devolvement of the industry into the automation GUI in my space has allowed a new batch of youth that can appreciate how stuff works to develop. How long one can keep that up for is an entirely different matter. There will be some youth that know what to do after we are gone. I just wonder how many of them there will be by then to maintain momentum. Mark.
On Tue, 23 Mar 2021, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
The problem comes when the younger generation *does* need access to the same knowledge - and the older generation is unreachable and/or actually gone.
Exactly. Let's keep in mind that it is not fanciful that networks may need to be built from the ground up again. A major environmental disaster, a nuclear war (even a very limited one) or another Carrington Event could require years of reconstruction. Thw world narrowly missed another Carrington Event in 2012. I recall reading that the US Government Accountability Office estimates full recovery from such an event would take 4-10 years. In a crisis like this network restoration would be a priority as it would facilitate communication right when it is most needed. Networks save lives. I would suggest though that anyone with a passion for networking would take the time to understand as much of it was possible. I'm sure there are plenty of young network engineers that have pored over RFCs and other documentation as well as experimenting as much as they can. Rob
On 3/25/21 03:13, Robert Brockway wrote:
Let's keep in mind that it is not fanciful that networks may need to be built from the ground up again.
Just maintaining and upgrading the current installed base is enough work as it is. And it cannot be done efficiently without having a true understanding of what the commands (via GUI or CLI) actually mean, more than what they just do. Mark.
On 3/20/2021 3:34 PM, David Siegel wrote:
...not to mention that all mature networks are moving more towards GUI front ends for their automated network. As the complexity of a network increases, CLI access becomes considerably more risky.
The idea that "real engineers use the CLI" is dinosaur thinking that will eventually land those with that philosophy out of a job. Just my personal $.02 (though I'm certainly not alone in my opinion).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I didn't mean to imply "real engineers use the CLI" only, but that's the way you read it (perhaps others, too), so all good. Definitely, there is no shortage of network engineering jobs for those that mainly use CLI compared to those that use mainly/only a GUI, at least as far as I have seen. The CLI works on all networks, but a GUI is different in each network. As was mentioned upthread, there is a place for a GUI. I am not implying there is not a place for it. I can't even begin to imagine trying to troubleshoot the complex problems I deal with day-to-day on a GUI and I am on a medium sized network compared to those on this list.
But I'd like to reiterate that the board's goal with modernization is not to alienate anyone from the existing community by forcing them into a web-interface. Discourse is under evaluation, and if it doesn't accomplish the goal we'll try something else or build our own tool.
----------------------------------------------- Thanks for that. I consider this list one of the most important tools I have for learning about networking. scott
Dave
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:52 PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com <mailto:mpetach@netflight.com>> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 5:13 PM scott <surfer@mauigateway.com <mailto:surfer@mauigateway.com>> wrote: [...]
Of course, one would not find an HTTP GUI on the bigger networks dealt with on this list; only on the tiny networks. So they're beginning learners and are, of course, welcome. They will lean a lot, just as I did in the early days and do every day now days.
[...]
scott
Let's see... Google: Gmail Microsoft: Hotmail/Outlook/Office365 Yahoo/VerizonMedia: Yahoo Mail
I'd have to say, there's some pretty big networks on this list that use HTTP GUIs for their email.
Of course, you might be big enough that you look down on the networks of Google, Microsoft, and VZM as "tiny networks" -- in which case, you're definitely entitled to your opinion, as all 8000 pound gorillas that look down on the puny 800 lb gorillas are. ;)
Matt
...not to mention that all mature networks are moving more towards GUI front ends for their automated network. As the complexity of a network increases, CLI access becomes considerably more risky.
The idea that "real engineers use the CLI" is dinosaur thinking that will eventually land those with that philosophy out of a job. Just my personal $.02 (though I'm certainly not alone in my opinion).
real engineers write code to do it. and gooeys get in the way something awful. remember cascade?
Perhaps this discussion should return to topic (communicating between humans with common interests over extremely diverse languages and environments). Facilitating communication with hardware should be a discussed as a separate topic. Jim - Deliberately posted on top.
On Mar 21, 2021, at 1:22 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
...not to mention that all mature networks are moving more towards GUI front ends for their automated network. As the complexity of a network increases, CLI access becomes considerably more risky.
The idea that "real engineers use the CLI" is dinosaur thinking that will eventually land those with that philosophy out of a job. Just my personal $.02 (though I'm certainly not alone in my opinion).
real engineers write code to do it. and gooeys get in the way something awful. remember cascade?
On 3/21/21 03:34, David Siegel wrote:
...not to mention that all mature networks are moving more towards GUI front ends for their automated network. As the complexity of a network increases, CLI access becomes considerably more risky.
The idea that "real engineers use the CLI" is dinosaur thinking that will eventually land those with that philosophy out of a job. Just my personal $.02 (though I'm certainly not alone in my opinion).
I wonder what those fancy GUI things are actually doing in the back-end. I'm of the opposite view... front-end shiny GUI's are the risk. I'd babysit them before I let them leave the house. For a long time. Mark.
----- On Mar 23, 2021, at 1:09 AM, Mark Tinka mark@tinka.africa wrote: Hi,
I'm of the opposite view... front-end shiny GUI's are the risk. I'd babysit them before I let them leave the house. For a long time.
Children of the magenta line... Most of the more effective troubleshooting techniques will require some sort of CLI or CLI-like output. In times of crisis, you'll want to be able to type "show ip bgp summary", instead of waiting for your browser to send a javascript request to a server, the server to run a python script invoking netmiko to log onto a node, grab the output, reformat it, have it sent back to your browser and rendered. Not to mention that, like pilots, network engineers need hands-on time to stay effective. Planes have crashed because pilots lost it and relied on automation (Asiana 214, anyone?). That said, as a soon-to-be-dinosaur, I try to keep up with the latest and greatest. I don't want to run the risk of becoming an ATM engineer. Thanks, Sabri
Hey, I did some OS/2 network driver for SNA over X.25 card using a PRI =D. But its all a question of workflow... Fake busy work created by devices/apps battling for your attention ain't my cup of tea. ----- Alain Hebert ahebert@pubnix.net PubNIX Inc. 50 boul. St-Charles P.O. Box 26770 Beaconsfield, Quebec H9W 6G7 Tel: 514-990-5911 http://www.pubnix.net Fax: 514-990-9443 On 3/23/21 2:14 PM, Sabri Berisha wrote:
----- On Mar 23, 2021, at 1:09 AM, Mark Tinka mark@tinka.africa wrote:
Hi,
I'm of the opposite view... front-end shiny GUI's are the risk. I'd babysit them before I let them leave the house. For a long time. Children of the magenta line...
Most of the more effective troubleshooting techniques will require some sort of CLI or CLI-like output. In times of crisis, you'll want to be able to type "show ip bgp summary", instead of waiting for your browser to send a javascript request to a server, the server to run a python script invoking netmiko to log onto a node, grab the output, reformat it, have it sent back to your browser and rendered.
Not to mention that, like pilots, network engineers need hands-on time to stay effective. Planes have crashed because pilots lost it and relied on automation (Asiana 214, anyone?).
That said, as a soon-to-be-dinosaur, I try to keep up with the latest and greatest. I don't want to run the risk of becoming an ATM engineer.
Thanks,
Sabri
Well, now we are likely find out what happens when Discord is bought: "Microsoft in talks to buy Discord messaging platform - sources" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-discord-m-a/microsoft-in-talks-to-buy-dis... scott
Nope. https://www.discourse.org/ != https://discord.com/ On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 2:35 PM scott <surfer@mauigateway.com> wrote:
Well, now we are likely find out what happens when Discord is bought:
"Microsoft in talks to buy Discord messaging platform - sources"
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-discord-m-a/microsoft-in-talks-to-buy-dis...
scott
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 2:35 PM scott <surfer@mauigateway.com <mailto:surfer@mauigateway.com>> wrote:
Well, now we are likely find out what happens when Discord is bought:
"Microsoft in talks to buy Discord messaging platform - sources"
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-discord-m-a/microsoft-in-talks-to-buy-dis... <https://www.reuters.com/article/us-discord-m-a/microsoft-in-talks-to-buy-discord-messaging-platform-sources-idUSKBN2BE320>
------------------------------------------ On 3/23/2021 8:39 AM, Tom Beecher wrote:
Nope.
https://www.discourse.org/ <https://www.discourse.org/> != https://discord.com/ <https://discord.com/>
-------------------------------------------------------------------- Oops, thanks. I will go and hide in the corner with my coffee pot... scott
On 3/23/21 20:14, Sabri Berisha wrote:
Most of the more effective troubleshooting techniques will require some sort of CLI or CLI-like output. In times of crisis, you'll want to be able to type "show ip bgp summary", instead of waiting for your browser to send a javascript request to a server, the server to run a python script invoking netmiko to log onto a node, grab the output, reformat it, have it sent back to your browser and rendered.
Not to mention that, like pilots, network engineers need hands-on time to stay effective. Planes have crashed because pilots lost it and relied on automation (Asiana 214, anyone?).
That said, as a soon-to-be-dinosaur, I try to keep up with the latest and greatest. I don't want to run the risk of becoming an ATM engineer.
Let's not forget Cisco had "ip http server" from the get. Even then, "no ip http server" was a favorite must-have. Mark.
On 3/20/21 20:06, Randy Bush wrote:
i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that.
Simple. As. That. Mark.
Agreed. Don't fix what isn't broken. -----Original Message----- From: "Mark Tinka" <mark@tinka.africa> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2021 4:33pm To: "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com>, "Rod Beck" <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Cc: "North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...? On 3/20/21 20:06, Randy Bush wrote:
i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that.
Simple. As. That. Mark.
Agreed. Don't fix what isn't broken.
ryuu.rg.net:/Users/randy> whois oldnog.org GeekTools Whois Proxy v5.0.6 Ready. Checking access for 162.195.241.81... ok. Checking server [whois.publicinterestregistry.net] Results: NOT FOUND >>> Last update of WHOIS database: 2021-03-20T20:51:13Z <<< hmmm randy --- randy@psg.com `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header butchery
Absolutely. I hate those web based forums, they force me to do all kinds of things that Email lists don't force me to do and the interfaces between them are often clunky or don't work. Keep it simple, please. On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:41:22 -0400, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
[1 <text/plain; UTF-8 (quoted-printable)>]
Agreed. Don't fix what isn't broken.
-----Original Message----- From: "Mark Tinka" <mark@tinka.africa> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2021 4:33pm To: "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com>, "Rod Beck" <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Cc: "North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?
On 3/20/21 20:06, Randy Bush wrote:
i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that.
Simple. As. That.
Mark.
[2 <text/html; UTF-8 (quoted-printable)>]
-- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici wb2una covici@ccs.covici.com
On 3/20/21 2:06 PM, Randy Bush wrote:
i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that.
+1 -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
I'm not complaining about the volume or diversity, just trying to help solve the concerns of those that are. That said, officially allowing some of the other types of conversation would likely increase the volume and diversity. How much, who knows? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> To: "Rod Beck" <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Cc: "North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2021 1:06:10 PM Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...? i do not find the volume or diversity on the nanog list problematic. in fact, i suspect its diversity and openness are major factors in it being the de facto global anything-ops list. perhaps we do not need to fix that. randy --- randy@psg.com `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header butchery
That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something). The other lists still wouldn't allow promotion, but you could make inquiries and discuss things that don't involve enable or configure. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> To: "Matthew Petach" <mpetach@netflight.com> Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org>, admins@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 6:43:41 PM Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...? Perhaps the sales, marketing and 'business development' people who've never typed "enable" or "configure" into a router a single day in their lives might be better served with a dedicated list that is mission focused on bizdev, and not operational issues. On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 3:29 PM Matthew Petach < mpetach@netflight.com > wrote: On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote: <blockquote> CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list. On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote: <blockquote> Rod- Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ <blockquote> 14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers. I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case : - Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from. I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about. I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here. I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults. </blockquote> </blockquote> If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them... #AFewDaysTooEarly ^_^;; Matt </blockquote>
On 3/20/21 9:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something).
The NANOG list seems to be leveraging Mailman, which does support topics. The topic feature allows you to subscribe to individual topics that you're interested in and specify if you want to receive messages that don't match any possible configured topic or not. There is a relatively simple method to scan incoming messages and auto-populate the header that Mailman is looking at to determine topics so that people do not need to remember to set them. I have had good luck with this methodology in the past. I would suggest trying it before splintering off to multiple NANOG subsidiary lists. Other than that, I support a NANOG-Discuss list so that NANOG (announcement / broadcast) list has a higher operations SNR. But topics. I believe they are an under utilized feature of Mailman. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
The board has been thinking about enhancements to the NANOG list for a couple of years now, with the goal of creating a modern interface that the younger generation of engineers will be more comfortable using. Those of you that have attended recent NANOG members meetings may recall that we are currently beta testing a new community interface called discourse as part of our NANOG modernization strategic initiative. If it proves out as the new interface, it will support multiple web-based forums, and each forum will feature a fully integrated two-way email interface. Once in full production, the existing general mailing list will be moved to the platform, and additional topics/mailing-lists will be created. If you prefer to join a specific forum but continue to use email as you always have, that will be an option and there will be many new topic-specific mailing lists. Those that wish to use a more modern looking web-based interface for discussion can use that, or anyone can use a hybrid of the two methods in the same forum (email or web-based). The beta is currently only open to board members, but we expect it to be opened for further beta testing and feedback later this year within the existing community. Dave Siegel NANOG board Vice-Chair On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 9:57 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something).
The other lists still wouldn't allow promotion, but you could make inquiries and discuss things that don't involve enable or configure.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> *To: *"Matthew Petach" <mpetach@netflight.com> *Cc: *"NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org>, admins@nanog.org *Sent: *Thursday, March 18, 2021 6:43:41 PM *Subject: *Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?
Perhaps the sales, marketing and 'business development' people who've never typed "enable" or "configure" into a router a single day in their lives might be better served with a dedicated list that is mission focused on bizdev, and not operational issues.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 3:29 PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
Rod-
Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/
14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the
following subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers.
I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case :
- Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from.
I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about.
I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here.
I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults.
If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them...
#AFewDaysTooEarly
^_^;;
Matt
Dave, I am a regular discourse user these days. I have been a NANOG list participant for at least a quarter of a century. I find all the modern forums require examining multiple web pages and do not support gaining any historical perspective or assist in correlating various topics into a coherent gestalt. They also require waiting for all the embellishments and formatting which html users prize as advantages, even when words, well reasoned or hasty, would serve as well or better. As you might surmise from the forgoing: IT AINT BROKE. DON’T FIX IT. Pardon my shouting in my fervent expression of my opinion, but it is important that you hear and consider this. - James R Cutler james.cutler@consultant.com On Mar 20, 2021, at 2:46 PM, David Siegel <arizonagull@gmail.com> wrote:
The board has been thinking about enhancements to the NANOG list for a couple of years now, with the goal of creating a modern interface that the younger generation of engineers will be more comfortable using.
Those of you that have attended recent NANOG members meetings may recall that we are currently beta testing a new community interface called discourse as part of our NANOG modernization strategic initiative. If it proves out as the new interface, it will support multiple web-based forums, and each forum will feature a fully integrated two-way email interface. Once in full production, the existing general mailing list will be moved to the platform, and additional topics/mailing-lists will be created.
If you prefer to join a specific forum but continue to use email as you always have, that will be an option and there will be many new topic-specific mailing lists. Those that wish to use a more modern looking web-based interface for discussion can use that, or anyone can use a hybrid of the two methods in the same forum (email or web-based).
The beta is currently only open to board members, but we expect it to be opened for further beta testing and feedback later this year within the existing community.
Dave Siegel NANOG board Vice-Chair
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 9:57 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something).
The other lists still wouldn't allow promotion, but you could make inquiries and discuss things that don't involve enable or configure.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com <http://www.ics-il.com/>
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
From: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com <mailto:eric.kuhnke@gmail.com>> To: "Matthew Petach" <mpetach@netflight.com <mailto:mpetach@netflight.com>> Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>, admins@nanog.org <mailto:admins@nanog.org> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 6:43:41 PM Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...?
Perhaps the sales, marketing and 'business development' people who've never typed "enable" or "configure" into a router a single day in their lives might be better served with a dedicated list that is mission focused on bizdev, and not operational issues.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 3:29 PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com <mailto:mpetach@netflight.com>> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote: CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote: Rod-
Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ <https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/>
14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers.
I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case :
- Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from.
I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about.
I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here.
I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults.
If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them...
#AFewDaysTooEarly
^_^;;
Matt
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 12:46:57PM -0600, David Siegel wrote:
The board has been thinking about enhancements to the NANOG list for a couple of years now, with the goal of creating a modern interface that the younger generation of engineers will be more comfortable using.
This isn't a valid goal. It's fine that some people can't handle mailing lists -- but then they shouldn't be network engineers or system admins, because (a) using mailing lists is a fundamental skill required in those fields and (b) anyone can't master such a rudimentary task in relatively short order really isn't equipped to be an engineer/admin. (Just like someone who can't do binary arithmetic or grasp multi-step processes shouldn't be an engineer/admin. This doesn't make them bad people, it just makes them people who are unlikely to be successful in the field.)
Those of you that have attended recent NANOG members meetings may recall that we are currently beta testing a new community interface called discourse as part of our NANOG modernization strategic initiative.
Discourse is a MAJOR downgrade from the functionality of mailing lists. Oh, it's shiny and pretty and all that, but it's not a good tool for serious professional or even amateur communication. (And, of particular interest to *this* list, it performs extremely poorly -- if at all -- when confronted with (a) network outages and congestion and (b) attacks and abuse. Two of the *many* significant advantages of properly-run mailing lists are that they continue to function plausibly well under highly adverse conditions and that there are numerous, well-understood tactical and strategic mechanisms for defending them.) ---rsk
My 2c on this is that, in my role as ISOC streammeister, it is frustrating that I have no way of notifying NOs when I have the occasional technical webcast, e.g. http://bit.ly/MANRSTechTalks If discourse might permit that, then bring it on! joly -- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
Usually efforts like this suck, but whatever WISPA did this year with the migration from a mailman system to an integrated forum\mailing list solution seems to work really well. It's not exactly like mailman, but it works very well. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Siegel" <arizonagull@gmail.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2021 1:46:57 PM Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...? The board has been thinking about enhancements to the NANOG list for a couple of years now, with the goal of creating a modern interface that the younger generation of engineers will be more comfortable using. Those of you that have attended recent NANOG members meetings may recall that we are currently beta testing a new community interface called discourse as part of our NANOG modernization strategic initiative. If it proves out as the new interface, it will support multiple web-based forums, and each forum will feature a fully integrated two-way email interface. Once in full production, the existing general mailing list will be moved to the platform, and additional topics/mailing-lists will be created. If you prefer to join a specific forum but continue to use email as you always have, that will be an option and there will be many new topic-specific mailing lists. Those that wish to use a more modern looking web-based interface for discussion can use that, or anyone can use a hybrid of the two methods in the same forum (email or web-based). The beta is currently only open to board members, but we expect it to be opened for further beta testing and feedback later this year within the existing community. Dave Siegel NANOG board Vice-Chair On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 9:57 AM Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something). The other lists still wouldn't allow promotion, but you could make inquiries and discuss things that don't involve enable or configure. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Eric Kuhnke" < eric.kuhnke@gmail.com > To: "Matthew Petach" < mpetach@netflight.com > Cc: "NANOG" < nanog@nanog.org >, admins@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 6:43:41 PM Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...? Perhaps the sales, marketing and 'business development' people who've never typed "enable" or "configure" into a router a single day in their lives might be better served with a dedicated list that is mission focused on bizdev, and not operational issues. On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 3:29 PM Matthew Petach < mpetach@netflight.com > wrote: <blockquote> On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote: <blockquote> CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list. On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote: <blockquote> Rod- Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ <blockquote> 14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers. I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case : - Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from. I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about. I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here. I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults. </blockquote> </blockquote> If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them... #AFewDaysTooEarly ^_^;; Matt </blockquote> </blockquote>
On 3/22/21 9:05 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
Usually efforts like this suck, but whatever WISPA did this year with the migration from a mailman system to an integrated forum\mailing list solution seems to work really well. It's not exactly like mailman, but it works very well.
I used to read that, and ISP-Wireless prior, but after the migration it just stopped working. After migration the content quality went down and the pagination on a forum sucks. The other major issue with a forum is it allows any admin to go in and edit your message/post. Unless you've setup moderation on the mailing list, this is generally not possible. The other advantage to a list is you can sign your messages to prevent these sorts of shenanigans. Simply put, if the option is there, it will be used. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
The migration happened just a month or two ago. Are we talking about the same thing? TBH, most discussion in the WISP space has moved to Facebook. The busy WISPA mailing lists used to get about 20k messages per year. When I last checked, they were down to 5k or so and on a downward trend. Meanwhile, the Facebook groups have exploded, both in members per group and the number of groups. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Fields" <Bryan@bryanfields.net> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 8:21:23 AM Subject: Re: Perhaps it's time to think about enhancements to the NANOG list...? On 3/22/21 9:05 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
Usually efforts like this suck, but whatever WISPA did this year with the migration from a mailman system to an integrated forum\mailing list solution seems to work really well. It's not exactly like mailman, but it works very well.
I used to read that, and ISP-Wireless prior, but after the migration it just stopped working. After migration the content quality went down and the pagination on a forum sucks. The other major issue with a forum is it allows any admin to go in and edit your message/post. Unless you've setup moderation on the mailing list, this is generally not possible. The other advantage to a list is you can sign your messages to prevent these sorts of shenanigans. Simply put, if the option is there, it will be used. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
On 3/22/21 7:00 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
TBH, most discussion in the WISP space has moved to Facebook. The busy WISPA mailing lists used to get about 20k messages per year. When I last checked, they were down to 5k or so and on a downward trend. Meanwhile, the Facebook groups have exploded, both in members per group and the number of groups.
I dropped my WISPA membership when it was clear the mailing list was no longer preferred by the members. So that shift cost them at least my revenue. Facebook groups are cancer, generally run by people looking for a power trip with no oversight, much like an HOA board that is just itching to fine and foreclose on a house because it has unapproved drapes showing through a side window . I got banned from a group for posting info that was correct, mod said I was "spreading rumors", I followed up with news articles showing it was accurate, then got banned because I should have known not to disagree with a mod. It's a shame people support Facebook groups and reinforce this behavior, and that there's no recourse.
On 3/22/21 8:00 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
most discussion in the WISP space has moved to Facebook
So ... a walled garden. I have a severe problem with professional communities /requiring/ me to have a Facebook, et al., account to participate in community discussions. What am I supposed to do if I don't have / can't get / want to avoid $WalledGardenInQuestion? Am I forced to choose to break down and get an account with $WalledGardenInQuestion XOR not participate in said professional community? What happens when $WalledGardenInQuestion changes policies or otherwise disagrees with something or is decides to ban the country where I'm at? I think that such walled gardens are a Bad Idea™. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
On 3/22/21 9:02 AM, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
On 3/22/21 8:00 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
most discussion in the WISP space has moved to Facebook
So ... a walled garden.
I have a severe problem with professional communities /requiring/ me to have a Facebook, et al., account to participate in community discussions.
What am I supposed to do if I don't have / can't get / want to avoid $WalledGardenInQuestion? Am I forced to choose to break down and get an account with $WalledGardenInQuestion XOR not participate in said professional community?
What happens when $WalledGardenInQuestion changes policies or otherwise disagrees with something or is decides to ban the country where I'm at?
I think that such walled gardens are a Bad Idea™.
That's especially true since their moderation AI's are terrible and arbitrary and absolutely not up to the task. Getting put into FB jail for something outside of work affecting you at work is not OK. And since they use browser fingerprinting, etc, having two separate account while in FB jail looks like ban evasion to them and will get you site banned. Mike
On Mar 22, 2021, at 11:02 AM, Grant Taylor via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I have a severe problem with professional communities /requiring/ me to have a Facebook, et al., account to participate in community discussions.
Not just “professional communities.” More like ANY communities. Heck, our church uses a bunch of disjointed Facebook groups and it DRIVES ME NUTS I don’t have FB, won’t have FB and haven’t had FB for close to 10 years. An elderly member died last week and the only way I could get any updates on his situation was others telling me about it. Our pastor’s daughter is in the hospital, and same thing, he posts updates to his FB account, which is set so that only FB friends can see it. I have to call or text someone else in the congregation just to know what is going on. “Blah blah blah if you wanna know what’s happening just get a FB account blah blah blah” people say. No. Use a communication method that is available globally, not proprietary and doesn’t require me to sell my soul to the devil simply to participate. Sigh. It is probably a losing battle. You kids get off my grass! -Andy
No. Use a communication method that is available globally, not proprietary and doesn’t require me to sell my soul to the devil simply to participate.
In your case you would have to go to an E-Mail list... which for some takes more time to curate / read versus something that is driven by push notifications. Protips.... #1. BitlBee lets you access facebook messenger via IRC. You have to run the server and connect to it via localhost. #2. mbasic.facebook.com is your friend on mobile if you don't run their messenger app but need to reach someone in a pinch. Facebook was less annoying when they sent notificataion emails that contained the actual information versus no information and a link to try to lure you back. - Ethan
On Mar 22, 2021, at 12:51 PM, Ethan O'Toole <telmnstr@757.org> wrote:
No. Use a communication method that is available globally, not proprietary and doesn’t require me to sell my soul to the devil simply to participate.
In your case you would have to go to an E-Mail list... which for some takes more time to curate / read versus something that is driven by push notifications.
Well of course. And, guess what - we have one at church. But, being a church (meaning volunteers handling things) it is quick and easy for things to “just happen.” What’s to stop #RandomSundaySchoolTeacher from starting a FB group for Sunday school kids/parents? Nothing. And then people glom onto it, and it becomes quasi-permanent and semi-official. Ultimately it comes down to something which is definitely lacking in today’s world: A brain. Otherwise known as “common sense” or “critical thinking.” One cannot solve a “people” problem with technology. We all know that. PEBKAC or “layer 8” problems. We’ve all been there. They aren’t going away. They will only get worse. -Andy
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 10:23 AM Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote:
No. Use a communication method that is available globally, not proprietary and doesn’t require me to sell my soul to the devil simply to participate.
Hi Andy, I refused to get a Facebook account until I was paid to. Now that I have one, I wonder why I bothered. I isolate it in its own browser profile so it can't snoop the rest of my web activity and I gave it an alias email address that only they have. I mostly control what information I give them. I like having an effortless way to keep up with my extended friends and family. In spite of that, I was surprised how good a job Facebook did targeting ads to my interests -- the knight hoodies were just too cool.
Sigh. It is probably a losing battle. You kids get off my grass!
The world moves on. I still don't like the idea of Facebook, but I actually like Facebook. Regards, Bill Herrin P.S. Facebook's "Portal Plus" device is simply the best personal video conferencing device I've ever used. Clear audio. Following camera that keeps you in frame. It's slick. P.p.s. Did you know that accessing customers' private information without the customer's explicit permission is a zero-tolerance first-time firing offense at Facebook? I didn't! Seems they got religion after Cambridge Analytica. They even have strong technical controls to stop it. They process the heck out of your data but they do not, do not look. -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
On 3/22/21 11:41 AM, William Herrin wrote:
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 10:23 AM Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote:
No. Use a communication method that is available globally, not proprietary and doesn’t require me to sell my soul to the devil simply to participate. Hi Andy,
I refused to get a Facebook account until I was paid to. Now that I have one, I wonder why I bothered. I isolate it in its own browser profile so it can't snoop the rest of my web activity and I gave it an alias email address that only they have. I mostly control what information I give them. I like having an effortless way to keep up with my extended friends and family. In spite of that, I was surprised how good a job Facebook did targeting ads to my interests -- the knight hoodies were just too cool.
Air-gapping the browsers is certainly best, but Firefox has been really clamping down on super-cookies and the like. It will be interesting to see what the overall effect is. My husband and friends have been having good laughs lately about some of the weird targeted ads they get. They are definitely not perfect. I use Facebook Purity and don't see their ads at all. Mike
On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:41:22 -0700 William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 10:23 AM Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote:
No. Use a communication method that is available globally, not proprietary and doesn’t require me to sell my soul to the devil simply to participate.
Hi Andy,
I refused to get a Facebook account until I was paid to. Now that I have one, I wonder why I bothered. I isolate it in its own browser profile so it can't snoop the rest of my web activity and I gave it an alias email address that only they have. I mostly control what information I give them. I like having an effortless way to keep up with my extended friends and family. In spite of that, I was surprised how good a job Facebook did targeting ads to my interests -- the knight hoodies were just too cool.
Sigh. It is probably a losing battle. You kids get off my grass!
The world moves on. I still don't like the idea of Facebook, but I actually like Facebook.
Regards, Bill Herrin
P.S. Facebook's "Portal Plus" device is simply the best personal video conferencing device I've ever used. Clear audio. Following camera that keeps you in frame. It's slick.
P.p.s. Did you know that accessing customers' private information without the customer's explicit permission is a zero-tolerance first-time firing offense at Facebook? I didn't! Seems they got religion after Cambridge Analytica. They even have strong technical controls to stop it. They process the heck out of your data but they do not, do not look.
No, they just sell it to another gaggle of chuckleheads who *do* look. It doesn't matter whether or not they look, I don't want them having it in the first place. :P -- Christopher Conforti
On 3/22/21 19:22, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
Sigh. It is probably a losing battle. You kids get off my grass!
You're right about that last part. The kids are using what they feel gives them value and simplicity. I'm old skool, but I'll be the first one to find a way to reach them via the tools they like to use. Because, for better or worse, the next batch of network engineers are in that pool, somewhere. I mean, I've had to install one of those desktop web app things for Telegram, because a NOG list I'm on is far busier there than it is on the main mailing list. And it's a useful bunch of folk. Mark.
On 3/22/21 10:00 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
The migration happened just a month or two ago. Are we talking about the same thing?
I'm talking about wireless@wispa.org which started after isp-wireless@isp-wireless.com went away. What sad is the archives from this are gone too.
TBH, most discussion in the WISP space has moved to Facebook. The busy WISPA mailing lists used to get about 20k messages per year. When I last checked, they were down to 5k or so and on a downward trend. Meanwhile, the Facebook groups have exploded, both in members per group and the number of groups.
Cancer. There's nothing but an echo chamber in facebook. Taking time to compose thoughts in email elevates discourse. Top posting "me too" to a forum destroys it. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
On 3/22/2021 4:00 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
The migration happened just a month or two ago. Are we talking about the same thing?
TBH, most discussion in the WISP space has moved to Facebook. The busy WISPA mailing lists used to get about 20k messages per year. When I last checked, they were down to 5k or so and on a downward trend. Meanwhile, the Facebook groups have exploded, both in members per group and the number of groups.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please tell me you're not suggesting that to be able to participate in NANOG a person must move to FB. I would get banned from NANOG for saying what I think about that... scott
We currently have a beta instance of Discourse running: https://www.discourse.org/features <https://www.discourse.org/features> It gives us the same functionality as Mailman, with a more flexible, modern interface, and many new features. We will keep the community posted as we explore its functionality. Edward McNair Executive Director emcnair@nanog.org | +1 866-902-1336 ext. 102 | www.nanog.org NANOG | 305 E. Eisenhower Pkwy, Suite 100 | Ann Arbor, MI 48108, USA
On Mar 22, 2021, at 2:20 PM, scott <surfer@mauigateway.com> wrote:
On 3/22/2021 4:00 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
The migration happened just a month or two ago. Are we talking about the same thing?
TBH, most discussion in the WISP space has moved to Facebook. The busy WISPA mailing lists used to get about 20k messages per year. When I last checked, they were down to 5k or so and on a downward trend. Meanwhile, the Facebook groups have exploded, both in members per group and the number of groups.
Please tell me you're not suggesting that to be able to participate in NANOG a person must move to FB. I would get banned from NANOG for saying what I think about that...
scott
We already have a group on Facebook, and it has it's uses. Like sharing group pictures from events and other social-y stuff. It's not so effective as a community forum in my opinion, although I am a member of many facebook groups who use it in exactly that way and the basic functionality is there, it just doesn't feel right (probably because the interface was not built from the ground up to be community-forum oriented). Additionally, I wouldn't feel good about such an important knowledge base being completely in the hands of a 3rd party. On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 3:22 PM scott <surfer@mauigateway.com> wrote:
On 3/22/2021 4:00 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
The migration happened just a month or two ago. Are we talking about the same thing?
TBH, most discussion in the WISP space has moved to Facebook. The busy WISPA mailing lists used to get about 20k messages per year. When I last checked, they were down to 5k or so and on a downward trend. Meanwhile, the Facebook groups have exploded, both in members per group and the number of groups.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please tell me you're not suggesting that to be able to participate in NANOG a person must move to FB. I would get banned from NANOG for saying what I think about that...
scott
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 03:48:02PM -0600, David Siegel wrote:
We already have a group on Facebook, and it has it's uses. Like sharing group pictures from events and other social-y stuff.
yeah, that's all i need, is to get reprimanded at work while reading up on NANOG things, because Wish injected an ad for some plausibly NSFW item. no thanks. -- Jim Mercer Reptilian Research jim@reptiles.org +1 416 410-5633 Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" -- Hunter S. Thompson
On Mon, 2021-03-22 at 08:05 -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
Usually efforts like this suck, but whatever WISPA did this year with the migration from a mailman system to an integrated forum\mailing list solution seems to work really well. It's not exactly like mailman, but it works very well.
Discourse?!? It's a great "forum" by some accounts, but it is one of the most seriously crappy mailing lists I have ever been subjected to. Without a word of exaggeration, it operates as if the developers had never seen a working mailing list. Quoting, signatures, sender addresses, reply-to addresses, HTTP vs text, archiving, threading, configuration - you name it, they screwed it up. Not in minor ways either. I hope all the above is wrong. My experience is about a year old. Maybe the software has been improved. At very least, make sure that your beta testers include a proper proportion of email-only users, and then listen to them. Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer GPG fingerprint: 2561 E9EC D868 E73C 8AF1 49CF EE50 4B1D CCA1 5170 Old fingerprint: 8D08 9CAA 649A AFEF E862 062A 2E97 42D4 A2A0 616D
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:16 AM Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au> wrote:
Without a word of exaggeration, it operates as if the developers had never seen a working mailing list. Quoting, signatures, sender addresses, reply-to addresses, HTTP vs text, archiving, threading, configuration - you name it, they screwed it up. Not in minor ways either.
Let me begin by stating that I prefer to participate via mail, and I understand all of these things just fine. However, I must point out that none of these things have the slightest bit to do with network engineering, aside from the fact that people on NANOG-L seem to expect you to understand them. It seems to me that the goal of the board is to allow participation by people who are skilled network engineers but do not care about HTML mail, top posting, or any of this other stuff that only seems to ever come up on this list. And I agree with that idea. And as a final aside (not directed at you, Karl), lots of people on this list seem to try to dunk on email clients that don't support killfiles. In fact, I don't think such a thing exists. Even Gmail, one of the most widely used email services, supports this. They just call it "mute" and you do it by pressing 'm' on your keyboard. However, lots of email clients exist that can't properly read HTML mail or top-posted replies. Maybe people should stop using these incapable clients and switch to something at least as capable as Gmail. Then there would be no need for anyone on NANOG-L to understand these idiosyncrasies. -- Hunter Fuller (they) Router Jockey VBH Annex B-5 +1 256 824 5331 Office of Information Technology The University of Alabama in Huntsville Network Engineering
It appears that Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> said:
-=-=-=-=-=-
That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something).
Having been around this barn a few times, I can promise you that won't work, because threads will never stay on the appropriate list. Mailman topics might work better but I've never seen a list that used them successfully. For once, I'm with Randy. The volume from NANOG at its chattiest is not huge, and if you have trouble keeping up with it, perhaps you could consider a better mail program. R's, John
I agree. mh 20 mars 2021 19:57 "John Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> a écrit:
It appears that Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> said:
-=-=-=-=-=-
That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something).
Having been around this barn a few times, I can promise you that won't work, because threads will never stay on the appropriate list.
Mailman topics might work better but I've never seen a list that used them successfully.
For once, I'm with Randy. The volume from NANOG at its chattiest is not huge, and if you have trouble keeping up with it, perhaps you could consider a better mail program.
R's, John
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 10:54:57AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something).
The other lists still wouldn't allow promotion, but you could make inquiries and discuss things that don't involve enable or configure.
Three problems: - Humans - Arguing about the sub-categorization - Staffing to police it Thread or poster-based plonking is and always has been the winner, with private, direct reporting to admins for egregious cases. I've built quite a library of procmail filters directing problematic posters and threads to null or review-when-needed bin. Automated tagging could be helpful to facilitate such, but that mediation would need some investment and maintenance. Cheers, Joe -- Posted from my personal account - see X-Disclaimer header. Joe Provo / Gweep / Earthling
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 10:54:57AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something).
there used to be a thing called USENET. it facilitated a forum-like interface to mailing-lists, with the ability for anyone to create their own sub-forums. it was quite popular for a while. --jim -- Jim Mercer Reptilian Research jim@reptiles.org +1 416 410-5633 Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" -- Hunter S. Thompson
And some of the lessons of group creation on USENET was: 1. You don't create a sub-topic to try to generate discussion. So for example you don't create talk.baseball.redsox because no one ever posts about the redsox in talk.baseball. It doesn't work. Not really relevant here tho it might become relevant. 2. You create a sub-topic to split large amounts of traffic like when there's just too much talk about the redsox and yankees in talk.baseball so you create talk.baseball.redsox and talk.redsox.yankees so those discussions can find each other. It's generally best when you're trying to split an overflow of traffic rather than enumerate or classify it or enforce some policy. 3. You don't create a sub-topic because some people don't want to see certain posts like talk.baseball.fights hoping to draw talk of on-field fights off talk.baseball. I think what's going on here is #3 mostly trying to pose as #2 and probably is unwise because it probably won't work plus or minus how much one can try to force the occasional off-topic poster off the list or to shame them. That is, people will seek their audience. P.S. Getto was a (mostly involuntary) Jewish neighborhood in Venice, Italy which is where the term Ghetto derives. I've been there (voluntarily.) "Getto" means "foundry" in Italian, it was a less desirable area because of the foundry there. On March 20, 2021 at 22:04 jim@reptiles.org (Jim Mercer) wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 10:54:57AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something).
there used to be a thing called USENET.
it facilitated a forum-like interface to mailing-lists, with the ability for anyone to create their own sub-forums.
it was quite popular for a while.
--jim
-- Jim Mercer Reptilian Research jim@reptiles.org +1 416 410-5633
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" -- Hunter S. Thompson
-- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 8:56 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something).
Hi Mike, This conversation started because someone got called to carpet for soliciting a vendor on the main list. Rather than guessing at how to split up topics, why not confine the effort to the one need that seems to clearly exist: a place for network engineers to solicit vendors of the goods and services that network engineers buy? Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
why not confine the effort to the one need that seems to clearly exist: a place for network engineers to solicit vendors of the goods and services that network engineers buy?
If there's a real need for that ( which my voicemail and email might say is debatable :) ) , then someone could start that, but I do not think NANOG itself should. Biz-dev is not the stated mission of the organization. On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:52 PM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 8:56 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
That seems like a reasonable proposal. NANOG-OffTopic, NANOG-Discuss, NANOG-BizDev, NANOG-xyz, something (more more than one something).
Hi Mike,
This conversation started because someone got called to carpet for soliciting a vendor on the main list. Rather than guessing at how to split up topics, why not confine the effort to the one need that seems to clearly exist: a place for network engineers to solicit vendors of the goods and services that network engineers buy?
Regards, Bill Herrin
-- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
Indeed. Stay tuned. :-) On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 4:30 PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
Rod-
Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/
14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following
subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers.
I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case :
- Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from.
I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about.
I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here.
I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults.
If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them...
#AFewDaysTooEarly
^_^;;
Matt
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 03:28:31PM -0700, Matthew Petach wrote:
If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them...
1. Anyone who's using a professional-quality mail client like mutt already has this capability. There's no need to modify the mailing list to accomodate people who choose to use any of the lesser mail clients that don't facilitate basic threading, filtering, and sorting. 2. This is a low-traffic list, so even without appropriate mail client support it's really not a big deal. ---rsk
* rsk@gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec) [Sat 20 Mar 2021, 14:03 CET]:
2. This is a low-traffic list, so even without appropriate mail client support it's really not a big deal.
The volume isn't the point, the S:N ratio is. Mails like this thread's starter are off-topic and reduce the value of the list to its subscribers. Your reasoning is easy, common and fallacious. -- Niels.
On 3/20/21 15:13, Niels Bakker wrote:
The volume isn't the point, the S:N ratio is. Mails like this thread's starter are off-topic and reduce the value of the list to its subscribers. Your reasoning is easy, common and fallacious.
Plenty of volume being created for something - I presume - most folk on this list won't be able to respond to with protein anyway. Not seeing the issue, really. As most have done, if you can provide protein, respond. If you can't ignore. Next thread. Mark.
On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:13:04 +0100, Niels Bakker said:
* rsk@gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec) [Sat 20 Mar 2021, 14:03 CET]:
2. This is a low-traffic list, so even without appropriate mail client support it's really not a big deal.
The volume isn't the point, the S:N ratio is. Mails like this thread's starter are off-topic and reduce the value of the list to its subscribers. Your reasoning is easy, common and fallacious.
Unfortunately, the *rest* of the thread did more damage to Friday's S:N ratio than the original post did. And adding "topic" tags to the subject line doesn't actually help the food-fight scenario, as those can break out even in [TOPIC] tagged threads. To tilt it the rest of the way from sub-optimal to outright pessimal is the fact that some subscribers may find a thread has gone off into the weeds, while others consider all the details interesting. So having a kill-thread command in the MUA is the most realistic place to deal with "this user doesn't want to hear from this thread again".
On 3/20/21 16:54, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
Unfortunately, the *rest* of the thread did more damage to Friday's S:N ratio than the original post did.
This! There are many threads on here I don't find useful after 2 posts. So I'll just gloss over new posts on that thread (if not outright ignore them) until I hit a new topic in the hopes of some meat. That's far easier than me e-mailing about why a post had no place on the list. Like, unless someone is posting about kitchen recipes or bee keeping, it's not that deep. Mark.
On 3/20/21 8:54 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
And adding "topic" tags to the subject line doesn't actually help the food-fight scenario, as those can break out even in [TOPIC] tagged threads. To tilt it the rest of the way from sub-optimal to outright pessimal is the fact that some subscribers may find a thread has gone off into the weeds, while others consider all the details interesting.
This is one of the reasons that I really prefer the dynamic topic detection. If messages in a thread no longer have the necessary key words which define a topic, Mailman doesn't consider it to be part of that topic. If a different thread veers into a topic and has the necessary key words which define the other topic, Mailman considers it to be part of that other topic. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
On 3/20/21 6:13 AM, Niels Bakker wrote:
* rsk@gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec) [Sat 20 Mar 2021, 14:03 CET]:
2. This is a low-traffic list, so even without appropriate mail client support it's really not a big deal.
The volume isn't the point, the S:N ratio is. Mails like this thread's starter are off-topic and reduce the value of the list to its subscribers. Your reasoning is easy, common and fallacious.
Speaking of "this thread's starter" -- unless I've lost track of the thread here completely haha -- this all got started because one infrequent poster decided that he had to be Hall Monitor(tm) and chide others about List Etiquette(tm) My personal solution to that Hall Monitor remains the same as it's been for $very_long_time Thunderbird Email --> Message Filters --> Select Filter "NANOG" Thunderbird Email --> Message Filters "NANOG" --> add Hall Monitor Thunderbird Email --> Message Filters "NANOG" --> add offending thread subject Thunderbird Email --> [select Folder "NANOG"] Thunderbird Email --> Tools --> Run Filters on Folder **poof** I'm sure those who are more cunning can figure out something with procmail and mutt and all, but I'm older now and more ... gooey... - John --
I find it interesting that every time a company harvests email addresses from the list and starts sales calls, the pitchforks come out right quick (even though it's a public mailing list, what do we expect will happen?). But if an individual is running their business off the list, that's acceptable and nothing should be done. A large portion of these emails lately have contained some variation of 'contact me off list'. How does that provide any benefit to the community? Is anyone else in the community getting any information about what providers may be on a pathway that would help them? They are not. On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 6:28 PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
Rod-
Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/
14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers.
I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case :
- Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from.
I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about.
I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here.
I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults.
If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them...
#AFewDaysTooEarly
^_^;;
Matt
On Mar 20, 2021, at 3:44 PM, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
A large portion of these emails lately have contained some variation of 'contact me off list'. How does that provide any benefit to the community? Is anyone else in the community getting any information about what providers may be on a pathway that would help them? They are not.
This is how I’m viewing a lot of this too. It’s like the posts on stack exchange et al, Reddit, and various forums that are just closed with “fixed” and no details or follow up. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of a mailing list with an archive since the same questions can come up again and again and no actual answers to the questions.
In my opinion we have two very different types of 'contact me off list' things going on here. We have commercial solicitations and people looking to make contacts for buying transport circuits, capacity, etc. And then on the other hand we have 'contact me off list' asks related to network operational issues, when the subject pertains to what's going on inside a particular AS, or in some peering or traffic routing problem. Not everybody wants their own or their peer's dirty laundry aired in public if something is broken or misconfigured in their relationship to the rest of the global routing table. And particularly not in a context where it will go in a public archive forever. On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 4:53 PM Brielle <bruns@2mbit.com> wrote:
On Mar 20, 2021, at 3:44 PM, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
A large portion of these emails lately have contained some variation of 'contact me off list'. How does that provide any benefit to the community? Is anyone else in the community getting any information about what providers may be on a pathway that would help them? They are not.
This is how I’m viewing a lot of this too. It’s like the posts on stack exchange et al, Reddit, and various forums that are just closed with “fixed” and no details or follow up.
Kinda defeats the whole purpose of a mailing list with an archive since the same questions can come up again and again and no actual answers to the questions.
On 3/21/21 01:52, Brielle wrote:
This is how I’m viewing a lot of this too. It’s like the posts on stack exchange et al, Reddit, and various forums that are just closed with “fixed” and no details or follow up.
Kinda defeats the whole purpose of a mailing list with an archive since the same questions can come up again and again and no actual answers to the questions.
Well, people that post with a "reply off-list" often do so because they don't want to get blamed for impacting the SNR. I feel reasonably confident to hazard that if this fear did not exist, information flow would be a lot more transparent. Mark.
On 3/20/21 23:43, Tom Beecher wrote:
A large portion of these emails lately have contained some variation of 'contact me off list'. How does that provide any benefit to the community? Is anyone else in the community getting any information about what providers may be on a pathway that would help them? They are not.
I don't see an issue with that. Off-list contact is about keeping exchanges that may not be of material interest to the majority at a minimum. I've often found others who want to know as well chime in stating so. During these times that we can't travel to conferences, the social capital from this and similar lists is worth its weight in words. Mark.
Agree. I’ve had it filtered to a casual folder for 5 years now. I appreciate the banter. Abilities to sort and shred would be great. While I miss mail, I’m OK using browser code if it can make nanog-l more relevant. $0.02 only On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 18:31 Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
CC back to the mailing list for visibility, since I ate the CC list.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:31 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
Rod-
Please refer to the usage guidelines found here. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/
14. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following
subjects are inappropriate: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; benefits, profits, profit margins, or cost data; market shares, sales territories, or markets; allocation of customers or territories; or selection, rejection, or termination of customers or suppliers.
I would tend to agree that while most of your posts to the list are within the guidelines, there have been occasions where a reasonable person could think you might be skirting the line a bit. In this case :
- Your company works as a broker to procure capacity for others. - You sent an email to the list that wording wise would be exactly the same as many of us might send to someone they were looking for capacity from.
I think most would agree this is pretty clearly against both the usage guidelines and the spirit of what this mailing list is about.
I would also like to remind you that this list is administered by the NANOG organization. You have no authority to tell others to 'cease and desist', and insult someone as 'underemployed' is also not well tolerated here.
I have looped in the list admins here. It would probably be a good idea to refrain from future messages that are clearly commercial in nature, or that contain unnecessary insults.
If only we had some way to segregate out different topics of interest or disinterest, so that people who weren't interested in questions about bandwidth availability could unsubscribe from those topics, and only subscribe to the topics that *did* interest them...
#AFewDaysTooEarly
^_^;;
Matt
participants (43)
-
Alain Hebert -
Allen Kitchen -
Andy Ringsmuth -
Brielle -
Bryan Fields -
bzs＠theworld.com -
Christopher Conforti -
David Siegel -
Edward McNair -
Emil Pfeffer -
Eric Kuhnke -
Ethan O'Toole -
Grant Taylor -
Hank Nussbacher -
Hunter Fuller -
J. Hellenthal -
james.cutler＠consultant.com -
Jim Mercer -
Joe Provo -
John Covici -
John Levine -
John Sage -
Joly MacFie -
Karl Auer -
Mark Tinka -
Martin Hannigan -
Matthew Petach -
Michael Hallgren -
Michael Thomas -
Mike Hammett -
Niels Bakker -
Randy Bush -
Rich Kulawiec -
Robert Brockway -
Rod Beck -
Sabri Berisha -
scott -
Seth Mattinen -
Shawn L -
Stan Barber -
Tom Beecher -
Valdis Klētnieks -
William Herrin