In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would 1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east. My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult. I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on... Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Ending DST is a really good idea. Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact statement will take forever to write Dave
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On 3/15/22 12:19, Dave wrote:
Ending DST is a really good idea.
Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact statement will take forever to write
Moving 15 degrees east would put Washington DC in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. This might not be a bad thing. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
Well, it would create term limits -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bkain1=ford.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Jay Hennigan Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:22 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding. On 3/15/22 12:19, Dave wrote:
Ending DST is a really good idea.
Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact statement will take forever to write
Moving 15 degrees east would put Washington DC in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. This might not be a bad thing. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
On 3/15/2022 9:22 AM, Jay Hennigan wrote: On 3/15/22 12:19, Dave wrote: Ending DST is a really good idea. Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact statement will take forever to write Moving 15 degrees east would put Washington DC in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. This might not be a bad thing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ We here in Hawaii would also have a hard time accomplishing that unless we're going to anchor sailboats in 10,000+ feet of water. ;) We have never done DST. Always -10GMT. scott
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 12:22:14PM -0700, Jay Hennigan wrote:
On 3/15/22 12:19, Dave wrote:
Ending DST is a really good idea.
Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact statement will take forever to write
Moving 15 degrees east would put Washington DC in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. This might not be a bad thing.
Sounds like the idea reason FONSIs exist.
Not sure about your state, but in mine we’re mandated by law to have the new smoke/co2 detectors with 10-year sealed batteries in place by Jan 2023. I’m not sure I can even buy one locally that isn’t a 10-year. Jason From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+jasonbaugher=adamstel.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of PJ Capelli via NANOG Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 2:35 PM To: Dave <dedelman@iname.com>; Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST But how will we remember to change the batteries in our smoke and CO2 detectors then? Sent from ProtonMail for iOS On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:19 PM, Dave <dedelman@iname.com<mailto:dedelman@iname.com>> wrote: Ending DST is a really good idea. Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact statement will take forever to write Dave
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Jason Baugher, Network Operations Manager 405 Emminga Road | PO Box 217 | Golden, IL 62339-0217 P (217) 696-4411 | F (217) 696-4811 | www.adams.net<http://www.adams.net/> [Adams-Logo]<http://adams.net/> ________________________________ The information contained in this email message is PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL, and is intended for the use of the addressee and no one else. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute, reproduce or use this email message (or the attachments) and notify the sender of the mistaken transmission. Thank you.
On 3/15/22 19:28, Sabri Berisha wrote:
----- On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:35 PM, nanog nanog@nanog.org wrote:
But how will we remember to change the batteries in our smoke and CO2 detectors then?
Don't worry, they'll remind you.
At 3am.
With an annoying beep.
If only it were that easy. The annoying beep only happens after at least a week of annoying chirps that are far too short to localize and spaced just far enough apart that you can't really anticipate when the next one will come. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
Changing the relationship between local time and true solar noon to provide more or less sunlight during certain times of the day and certain times of the year is a totally suboptimal solution. Its like changing your oil by rotating your entire car while holding the oil filter stationary. But gov't shouldn't tell us when we have to get up, or go to work, so if they just change what time it is, we're all fooled, right? This is the North American Network Operators Group mailing list, so I am curious, do any network operators see actual impact, to network operations, if this does go into effect? Where time of day is present in protocols, it is almost always based on UTC. There are already many different and inconsistently applied local timezone rules in the world, and it does not seem to impact network operations. I see this as more of an applications and UI/UX type of impact. I guess what I am asking, do IP packets check and adjust their wristwatches when they transit different timezones?
Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard thing to accomplish Dave
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:19 PM, Dave <dedelman@iname.com> wrote:
Ending DST is a really good idea.
Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact statement will take forever to write
Dave
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
dedelman@iname.com (Dave) wrote:
Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard thing to accomplish
Well... 1 - I'm surprised anybody is running local timezones on their systems at all 2 - I like how american politics is capable of creating new problems; where did this bill come from in the first place? And who's lobbying? Elmar.
It has been bubbling under for some years-there are about I think it's 10 or 11 states which have already passed state laws changing it, pending that the federal law blocking those be dropped-that's the Uniform Time Act of 1966 if I have the title correct. And to reply to somebody else his comment, the exceptions to the 15 degree rule which already exists already caused problems, so there isn't any reason to believe that bumping this down to the state and local level won't make things even more confusing. I wonder how big the buffers in the Timezone Library are; is ADO on this list? On March 15, 2022 4:24:50 PM EDT, "Elmar K. Bins" <elmi@4ever.de> wrote:
dedelman@iname.com (Dave) wrote:
Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard thing to accomplish
Well...
1 - I'm surprised anybody is running local timezones on their systems at all
2 - I like how american politics is capable of creating new problems; where did this bill come from in the first place? And who's lobbying?
Elmar.
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
"where did this bill come from in the first place?" The whitehouse, Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (Sponsor), Sen. Marco Rubio (Co-sponsor) On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:47 PM Elmar K. Bins <elmi@4ever.de> wrote:
dedelman@iname.com (Dave) wrote:
Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard thing to accomplish
Well...
1 - I'm surprised anybody is running local timezones on their systems at all
2 - I like how american politics is capable of creating new problems; where did this bill come from in the first place? And who's lobbying?
Elmar.
On Mar 15, 2022, at 1:24 PM, Elmar K. Bins <elmi@4ever.de> wrote:
2 - I like how american politics is capable of creating new problems; where did this bill come from in the first place? And who's lobbying?
According to the universal time law, the US is on Standard Time unless a state chooses Daylight Savings, but most states have chosen the latter. Florida and California, and perhaps other states, have passed laws saying that if Congress passes a law allowing universal Daylight savings, we'd prefer that. Personally, I don' care.
Folks, for most, this change removes the twice yearly disruption of their circadian rhythm and consequent surge of accidents and injuries. My timely recommendation, which also require change to a single file, is to stick to “standard” time year round making solar high noon closer to 12:00. Jim
On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:10 PM, Dave <dedelman@iname.com> wrote:
Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard thing to accomplish
Dave
Sure, but you imply that the proposed alternative=-going to permanent DST--is only a trivial change to, and it is not. It violates the international rule determining what your time zone should be based on what your longitude is. That is not trivial. On March 15, 2022 4:25:21 PM EDT, "james.cutler@consultant.com" <james.cutler@consultant.com> wrote:
Folks, for most, this change removes the twice yearly disruption of their circadian rhythm and consequent surge of accidents and injuries.
My timely recommendation, which also require change to a single file, is to stick to “standard” time year round making solar high noon closer to 12:00.
Jim
On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:10 PM, Dave <dedelman@iname.com> wrote:
Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard thing to accomplish
Dave
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
On Mar 15, 2022, at 2:06 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
It violates the international rule determining what your time zone should be based on what your longitude is.
That is not trivial.
It’s an informal convention, not “rule”, and it not vaguely consistent in practice now. You’re attributing a consensus to what’s practically chaos. Look at all the headaches the TZ people are dealing with now. This simplifies things considerably. -george Sent from my iPhone
Dave <dedelman@iname.com> wrote:
Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard thing to accomplish
Oh, hah, good one. I twitch with mild PTSD thinking about the last time there was change to DST in the US[1], and how everybody quickly found out that e.g., Java, databases, programming languages, etc. often ship their own (poorly kept up to date) zonefiles different from the OS's, and that was before un-updatedable IoT systems became ubiquitous. Change to a single file my foot. -Jan [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_the_United_States#2005...
On Mar 15, 2022, at 15:05 , Jan Schaumann via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Dave <dedelman@iname.com> wrote:
Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard thing to accomplish
Oh, hah, good one.
I twitch with mild PTSD thinking about the last time there was change to DST in the US[1], and how everybody quickly found out that e.g., Java, databases, programming languages, etc. often ship their own (poorly kept up to date) zonefiles different from the OS's, and that was before un-updatedable IoT systems became ubiquitous.
Change to a single file my foot.
You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases: 1. Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California). 2. Turn off the Daylight Stupid Time flag. The previous change involved updating MANY zone files to change when DST happened. This change eliminates that complexity altogether. This is a MUCH simpler change than the previous one. Owen
Once upon a time, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> said:
You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
1. Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).
And now your system displays wrong info 100% of the time, since as I understand it, the zones will be changed (e.g. for me, CST will change from UTC-0600 to UTC-0500). How will you distinguish between "old" MST and "new" MST when you see it listed? -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
It appears that Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net> said:
Once upon a time, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> said:
You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
1. Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).
And now your system displays wrong info 100% of the time, since as I understand it, the zones will be changed (e.g. for me, CST will change from UTC-0600 to UTC-0500). How will you distinguish between "old" MST and "new" MST when you see it listed?
No, the names of time zones will not change. California would permanently be on PDT. If you want to call it MST, that's OK, too. Arizona is on MST which is the same as PDT. Puerto Rico is on AST which is the same as EDT. Neither of them are going to change. R's, JOhn
On Mar 16, 2022, at 12:24 , Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net> wrote:
Once upon a time, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> said:
You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
1. Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).
And now your system displays wrong info 100% of the time, since as I understand it, the zones will be changed (e.g. for me, CST will change from UTC-0600 to UTC-0500). How will you distinguish between "old" MST and "new" MST when you see it listed?
As I said, if necessary for your situation, rename the appropriate file and then keep the TZ name and simply change the DST on/off flag to off. Owen
On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 12:51:56PM -0700, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote:
On Mar 16, 2022, at 12:24 , Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net> wrote:
Once upon a time, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> said:
You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
1. Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).
And now your system displays wrong info 100% of the time, since as I understand it, the zones will be changed (e.g. for me, CST will change from UTC-0600 to UTC-0500). How will you distinguish between "old" MST and "new" MST when you see it listed?
As I said, if necessary for your situation, rename the appropriate file and then keep the TZ name and simply change the DST on/off flag to off.
that'll be done by most major distribution without thought.
Owen
-- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:31 AM Owen DeLong via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
1. Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California). 2. Turn off the Daylight Stupid Time flag.
This doesn't work at all if you want to properly display times in the past. If you are in the new PST, then the setting is PST, and the timezone file properly has the current state as ending in November 2023 and the new state taking effect in November 2023 and you get proper display of time before and after the change. If you are in the new PST and set your timezone to MST then all times before November 2023 are displayed incorrectly. Matthew Kaufman
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:29:07AM -0700, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote:
You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
1. Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California). 2. Turn off the Daylight Stupid Time flag.
The previous change involved updating MANY zone files to change when DST happened.
This change eliminates that complexity altogether.
This is a MUCH simpler change than the previous one.
If the requirement is "I need to correctly convert epoch time to localtime for all times at or after the time when the new rules go into effect", that's a workable solution. If the requirement includes getting it right for historical times, then, well, not so much. -- Brett
Once upon a time, Dave <dedelman@iname.com> said:
Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard thing to accomplish
For lots of up-to-date servers running a current and well-maintained operating system, this will be mostly easy (except that if you maintain hundreds of servers, it's still non-trivial, because even with automation, there's testing involved to make sure all services are properly updated). It's definitely more than "a change to a single file" though. If that's all that existed, that'd be great. However, there are tons of not up-to-date servers, running unmaintained operating systems. There are tons of embedded systems that never get updates. The last time Congress messed with the time zones and DST, it was a huge PITA, and I'd wager there are way more problem systems now than there were then. This is a huge waste of time to address, all because some businesses think their hours are nailed for all eternity, and the world must change instead. -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
On Mar 15, 2022, at 17:34 , Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net> wrote:
Once upon a time, Dave <dedelman@iname.com> said:
Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard thing to accomplish
For lots of up-to-date servers running a current and well-maintained operating system, this will be mostly easy (except that if you maintain hundreds of servers, it's still non-trivial, because even with automation, there's testing involved to make sure all services are properly updated). It's definitely more than "a change to a single file" though.
If that's all that existed, that'd be great. However, there are tons of not up-to-date servers, running unmaintained operating systems. There are tons of embedded systems that never get updates. The last time Congress messed with the time zones and DST, it was a huge PITA, and I'd wager there are way more problem systems now than there were then.
True, but… Last time Congress messed with this, they weren’t making it better (eliminating the unnecessary and pointless timezone changes), they were arbitrarily changing when those changes happened for no legitimate reason other than the desire to appear to be doing something. I know of many systems that do not cope well with the DST/noDST changes, though as you said, mostly not modern ones running up to date software. I do not know of a single system ever built which keeps time at all and could not handle remaining in the same timezone year round without any modifications. The last change required updating the rules for how the change worked and when to trigger it for several timezones. The proposed change (having a single timezone per location and not changing it twice per year) would be much _MUCH_ simpler than the previous one and offers significant advantages, especially to those older systems that don’t handle the change well.
This is a huge waste of time to address, all because some businesses think their hours are nailed for all eternity, and the world must change instead.
This is a trivial change to eliminate an unnecessary complexity that no longer offers any benefit to society and creates significant costs. Owen
with all this discussion, i have not seen any post of this classic and most critical explainer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EUTMPuvHo
I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time. I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly. -mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Permanent DST has the same effect as cancelling DST and moving all the timezones up one hour. Since timezones are roughly sliced every 15 degrees of ... longitude?, hefting the physical US 15 degrees eastward would have the same effect on timezones as just a legal glitch to change them. On 15 March 2022 19:19:11 UTC, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly.
-mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
I think this is essentially the bill: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text Not finding anything about 15 degrees. Ray -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rvandolson=esri.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mel Beckman Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:19 PM To: Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time. I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly. -mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH... [bcp38[.]info] 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 12:33 PM Ray Van Dolson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I think this is essentially the bill: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text
Not finding anything about 15 degrees.
360 / 24 = 15. Because we'd standardize on DST instead of the old railroad time zones. It's a variation on the old saw about Congress repealing the inconvenient laws of physics. -Bill -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
Ok, so the fifteen degrees is bogus, nothing moves, and all that is really happening is standard time is ending. The OP here wins an award for “obfuscating reality”. No sweat. Fixing all the systems to comply with the new time rules is billable :) -mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:36 PM, William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 12:33 PM Ray Van Dolson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I think this is essentially the bill: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text
Not finding anything about 15 degrees.
360 / 24 = 15. Because we'd standardize on DST instead of the old railroad time zones. It's a variation on the old saw about Congress repealing the inconvenient laws of physics.
-Bill
-- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
On 3/15/22 12:26, Ray Van Dolson via NANOG wrote:
I think this is essentially the bill:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text
Not finding anything about 15 degrees.
The 15 degrees is kind of a joke. It means that "high noon", when the sun is at zenith, would occur roughly 15 degrees east of noon local clock time. It's kind of like the meme showing a Native American saying, "Only a white man would cut a foot off of the top of a blanket, sew it on the bottom, and think he has a longer blanket." -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:44 , Jay Hennigan <jay@west.net> wrote:
On 3/15/22 12:26, Ray Van Dolson via NANOG wrote:
I think this is essentially the bill: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text Not finding anything about 15 degrees.
The 15 degrees is kind of a joke. It means that "high noon", when the sun is at zenith, would occur roughly 15 degrees east of noon local clock time.
You have that backwards… With California observing MST, the sun would reach it’s Zenith in California at 11 AM local and Noon California would see the sun roughly 15 degrees west of it’s Zenith.
It's kind of like the meme showing a Native American saying, "Only a white man would cut a foot off of the top of a blanket, sew it on the bottom, and think he has a longer blanket."
Which is why ending the time change is a really GOOD idea. Honestly, I have zero dog in the fight over which timezone any particular state ends up in. I do favor entire states being in the same timezone as much as possible. So whether California ends up classed as PST, MST, PDT, or UTC permanently, I really couldn’t care less, so long as we don’t have to keep adjusting clocks. Owen
Thanks for finding the clarification on this Ray. I'm with the OP Jay that this will cause long term problems. The 15 degrees is not mentioned in the document just the change from "Standard Time" to "Daylight Time" permanently (they probably don't even understand it is in 15 degree increments). This will cause problems in systems across many sectors. The entire world works on UTC + or - on a 15 degree scale. Except now the US which will be 15 degree scale -15 degrees. I doubt Canada, Central, or South Americas are going to follow this so the United States will always be 15 degrees off of what is considered "Standard Time" by the world. The better solution would be to remove DST all together and tell everyone in the US to start work at 07:00 and get off work at 16:00 every day. Brian ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+briansupport=hotmail.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Ray Van Dolson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:26 PM To: Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org>; Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: "Permanent" DST I think this is essentially the bill: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text Not finding anything about 15 degrees. Ray -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rvandolson=esri.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mel Beckman Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:19 PM To: Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time. I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly. -mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH... [bcp38[.]info] 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
My understanding is that Russian time zones are one hour “east” of where they should be and that China, despite its size, is a single time zone. So this proposal isn’t unique. Whether it’s good is a different question… Michael
On 15 Mar 2022, at 15:44:46, Brian R <briansupport@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for finding the clarification on this Ray.
I'm with the OP Jay that this will cause long term problems. The 15 degrees is not mentioned in the document just the change from "Standard Time" to "Daylight Time" permanently (they probably don't even understand it is in 15 degree increments). This will cause problems in systems across many sectors. The entire world works on UTC + or - on a 15 degree scale. Except now the US which will be 15 degree scale -15 degrees. I doubt Canada, Central, or South Americas are going to follow this so the United States will always be 15 degrees off of what is considered "Standard Time" by the world. The better solution would be to remove DST all together and tell everyone in the US to start work at 07:00 and get off work at 16:00 every day.
Brian From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+briansupport=hotmail.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Ray Van Dolson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:26 PM To: Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org>; Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: "Permanent" DST
I think this is essentially the bill:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text
Not finding anything about 15 degrees.
Ray
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rvandolson=esri.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mel Beckman Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:19 PM To: Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly.
-mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH... [bcp38[.]info] 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
So to clarify/muddy the situation further... Time zones do not fall purely on the 15 degree lines on a globe. As such, the location of the sun overhead is locality specific within a timezone. Don’t let the enemy of done win here. ;)
On Mar 15, 2022, at 2:44 PM, Brian R <briansupport@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for finding the clarification on this Ray.
I'm with the OP Jay that this will cause long term problems. The 15 degrees is not mentioned in the document just the change from "Standard Time" to "Daylight Time" permanently (they probably don't even understand it is in 15 degree increments). This will cause problems in systems across many sectors. The entire world works on UTC + or - on a 15 degree scale. Except now the US which will be 15 degree scale -15 degrees. I doubt Canada, Central, or South Americas are going to follow this so the United States will always be 15 degrees off of what is considered "Standard Time" by the world. The better solution would be to remove DST all together and tell everyone in the US to start work at 07:00 and get off work at 16:00 every day.
Brian From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+briansupport=hotmail.com@nanog.org <mailto:nanog-bounces+briansupport=hotmail.com@nanog.org>> on behalf of Ray Van Dolson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:26 PM To: Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org <mailto:mel@beckman.org>>; Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com <mailto:jra@baylink.com>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: RE: "Permanent" DST
I think this is essentially the bill:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text <https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text>
Not finding anything about 15 degrees.
Ray
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rvandolson=esri.com@nanog.org <mailto:nanog-bounces+rvandolson=esri.com@nanog.org>> On Behalf Of Mel Beckman Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:19 PM To: Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com <mailto:jra@baylink.com>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly.
-mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com <mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com <mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH... <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH-Gk4LCElbaWSsLXzHYDHHpxEqU0OZW56655xb8Df0mA4p1wvA$> [bcp38[.]info] 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Agreed, it seems pretty foolish to move us to “permanent” DST instead of just going with standard time, as far as offset from UTC goes. If I had my way, the world would just use UTC and drop all the timezone stuff. But small steps, getting rid of the DST change is a good start. Jason From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+jasonbaugher=adamstel.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Brian R Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 2:45 PM Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST Thanks for finding the clarification on this Ray. I'm with the OP Jay that this will cause long term problems. The 15 degrees is not mentioned in the document just the change from "Standard Time" to "Daylight Time" permanently (they probably don't even understand it is in 15 degree increments). This will cause problems in systems across many sectors. The entire world works on UTC + or - on a 15 degree scale. Except now the US which will be 15 degree scale -15 degrees. I doubt Canada, Central, or South Americas are going to follow this so the United States will always be 15 degrees off of what is considered "Standard Time" by the world. The better solution would be to remove DST all together and tell everyone in the US to start work at 07:00 and get off work at 16:00 every day. Brian ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+briansupport=hotmail.com@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces+briansupport=hotmail.com@nanog.org>> on behalf of Ray Van Dolson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:26 PM To: Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org<mailto:mel@beckman.org>>; Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: RE: "Permanent" DST I think this is essentially the bill: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text Not finding anything about 15 degrees. Ray -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rvandolson=esri.com@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces+rvandolson=esri.com@nanog.org>> On Behalf Of Mel Beckman Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:19 PM To: Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time. I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly. -mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH-Gk4LCElbaWSsLXzHYDHHpxEqU0OZW56655xb8Df0mA4p1wvA$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH-Gk4LCElbaWSsLXzHYDHHpxEqU0OZW56655xb8Df0mA4p1wvA$> [bcp38[.]info] 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Jason Baugher, Network Operations Manager 405 Emminga Road | PO Box 217 | Golden, IL 62339-0217 P (217) 696-4411 | F (217) 696-4811 | www.adams.net<http://www.adams.net/> [Adams-Logo]<http://adams.net/> ________________________________ The information contained in this email message is PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL, and is intended for the use of the addressee and no one else. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute, reproduce or use this email message (or the attachments) and notify the sender of the mistaken transmission. Thank you.
The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour earlier (-8 thru -5 is replaced permanently with -7 thru -4). They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not really what's happening, in my engineering appraisal. Or my geopolitical one, but I don't lay claim to professional opinions there. -- jra ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org> To: "jra" <jra@baylink.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly.
-mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America. On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 12:35, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour earlier (-8 thru -5 is replaced permanently with -7 thru -4).
They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not really what's happening, in my engineering appraisal. Or my geopolitical one, but I don't lay claim to professional opinions there. -- jra
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org> To: "jra" <jra@baylink.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly.
-mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
We already have this problem with Arizona, which never changes time for the summer. -mel via cell On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:40 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote: If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America. On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 12:35, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote: The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour earlier (-8 thru -5 is replaced permanently with -7 thru -4). They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not really what's happening, in my engineering appraisal. Or my geopolitical one, but I don't lay claim to professional opinions there. -- jra ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org<mailto:mel@beckman.org>> To: "jra" <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly.
-mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Since the nominal (15 degree slice) boundary between Mountain and Pacific goes right through the Phoenix metro area, it sort of makes sense that Arizona would stay on the same time year round. Michael
On 15 Mar 2022, at 15:44:12, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
We already have this problem with Arizona, which never changes time for the summer.
-mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:40 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 12:35, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote: The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour earlier (-8 thru -5 is replaced permanently with -7 thru -4).
They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not really what's happening, in my engineering appraisal. Or my geopolitical one, but I don't lay claim to professional opinions there. -- jra
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org> To: "jra" <jra@baylink.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly.
-mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
What does Arizona do since you’re saying all of N America has to be the same? From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bkain1=ford.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Eric Kuhnke Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:41 PM To: Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding. If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America. On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 12:35, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote: The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour earlier (-8 thru -5 is replaced permanently with -7 thru -4). They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not really what's happening, in my engineering appraisal. Or my geopolitical one, but I don't lay claim to professional opinions there. -- jra ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org<mailto:mel@beckman.org>> To: "jra" <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly.
-mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info<https://clicktime.symantec.com/3BzmqZJWfDvcN9m2Tttvcqa6xn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bcp38.info> 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info<https://clicktime.symantec.com/3BzmqZJWfDvcN9m2Tttvcqa6xn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bcp38.info> 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On 3/15/22 12:40, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America.
That would be no different than crossing state lines where the time zone changes. I don't perceive a significant impact. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
On Mar 15, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America.
Nah, not really a big deal. The transportation world has handled it just fine for Arizona, and previously, Indiana. Heck, here’s where it gets real confusing. Arizona does not observe DST as a state. However, freight railroads in Arizona DO. At least BNSF Railway does. So for a good chunk of the year, if you are involved with the railroad, you have to clarify if events are happening at 8 a.m. city time or 8 a.m. railroad time. At least that’s how it was last time I was down there as a railroad contractor. -Andy
On 3/15/2022 1:19 PM, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
On Mar 15, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America. Nah, not really a big deal. The transportation world has handled it just fine for Arizona, and previously, Indiana.
Heck, here’s where it gets real confusing.
Arizona does not observe DST as a state. However, freight railroads in Arizona DO. At least BNSF Railway does. So for a good chunk of the year, if you are involved with the railroad, you have to clarify if events are happening at 8 a.m. city time or 8 a.m. railroad time.
At least that’s how it was last time I was down there as a railroad contractor.
-Andy.
Arizona time is supposedly MST all year but it is not consistent. The Indian nations adopt their own rules whether to use DST or not. Example: the Navajo nations uses DST but Hopi nation doesn't. You can plot a trip from east to west across AZ and have to change your clock seven times!
eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a eric> real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the eric> border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done eric> consistently throughout North America. You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US Mountain time. On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman <list-nanog2@dragon.net> wrote:
eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a eric> real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the eric> border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done eric> consistently throughout North America.
You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately. On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US Mountain time.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman <list-nanog2@dragon.net> wrote:
eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a eric> real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the eric> border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done eric> consistently throughout North America.
You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
Oh. This was "Unanimous Consent"? AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do not want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?" I'd missed that; thanks. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc> To: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US Mountain time.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman <list-nanog2@dragon.net> wrote:
eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a eric> real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the eric> border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done eric> consistently throughout North America.
You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens again. The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in the winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during most of the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When the tragedy happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this again... History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce... Matthew Huff | Director of Technical Operations | OTA Management LLC Office: 914-460-4039 mhuff@ox.com | www.ox.com ........................................................................................................................................... -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+mhuff=ox.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Jay R. Ashworth Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:30 PM To: Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST Oh. This was "Unanimous Consent"? AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do not want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?" I'd missed that; thanks. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc> To: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US Mountain time.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman <list-nanog2@dragon.net> wrote:
eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be eric> a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing eric> the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done eric> consistently throughout North America.
You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
There are plenty of arguments that the existing school hours aren’t best for educating children so the better answer might be to make school hours match later daylight hours.
On Mar 15, 2022, at 5:23 PM, Matthew Huff <mhuff@ox.com> wrote:
They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens again. The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in the winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during most of the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When the tragedy happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this again...
History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce...
Matthew Huff | Director of Technical Operations | OTA Management LLC
Office: 914-460-4039 mhuff@ox.com | www.ox.com ...........................................................................................................................................
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+mhuff=ox.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Jay R. Ashworth Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:30 PM To: Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
Oh. This was "Unanimous Consent"? AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do not want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?"
I'd missed that; thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc> To: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US Mountain time.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman <list-nanog2@dragon.net> wrote:
eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be eric> a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing eric> the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done eric> consistently throughout North America.
You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Stokes" <keiths@salonbiz.com>
There are plenty of arguments that the existing school hours aren’t best for educating children so the better answer might be to make school hours match later daylight hours.
As it turns out, there's a deeper answer here: There are still a statistically significant number of families, even in 2022, where the financial contribution of a high-school senior to the budget is important, and that necessity is perceived to be both safer, and more likely to be worth the investment for employers, if they can work later. This also, as I understood it, why high-school is always the first grade level which starts, and ends, the school day (often 7a-2p or so). No, I don't have a citation handy; news pieces I read on it some years ago. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Once upon a time, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> said:
This also, as I understood it, why high-school is always the first grade level which starts, and ends, the school day (often 7a-2p or so).
Not "always"... high school starts 30-40 minutes later than the younger kids here. -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
All of this. The reason that the proposal is always worded "Permanent Daylight Savings Time" is that there are a non-trivial number of people who genuinely believe that with DST we get more sunlight. Not more sunlight during the hours when most people are awake, literally more sunlight. In a world where institutional hours don't change, (schools, workplaces, etc.) DST actually makes sense because it more closely aligns the ideas of "morning" and "evening" with most people's schedules. For the most part people complaining about the change are actually reacting to the lengthening and/or shortening daylight hours. The fixed point to change the clocks just gives them something to focus on. Keeping everything on standard time and adjusting schedules makes the most sense for letting kids travel too and from with the most daylight possible; but taking just the example of working parents, they would need all of their kids' schools to agree to the same change, as well as their workplace. Alas, the true solution is education. On 3/15/22 3:09 PM, Matthew Huff wrote:
They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens again. The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in the winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during most of the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When the tragedy happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this again...
History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce...
Matthew Huff | Director of Technical Operations | OTA Management LLC
Office: 914-460-4039 mhuff@ox.com | www.ox.com ...........................................................................................................................................
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+mhuff=ox.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Jay R. Ashworth Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:30 PM To: Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
Oh. This was "Unanimous Consent"? AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do not want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?"
I'd missed that; thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc> To: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US Mountain time.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman <list-nanog2@dragon.net> wrote:
eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be eric> a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing eric> the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done eric> consistently throughout North America.
You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
On Mar 15, 2022, at 22:16 , Doug Barton <dougb@dougbarton.us> wrote:
All of this. The reason that the proposal is always worded "Permanent Daylight Savings Time" is that there are a non-trivial number of people who genuinely believe that with DST we get more sunlight. Not more sunlight during the hours when most people are awake, literally more sunlight.
In a world where institutional hours don't change, (schools, workplaces, etc.) DST actually makes sense because it more closely aligns the ideas of "morning" and "evening" with most people's schedules. For the most part people complaining about the change are actually reacting to the lengthening and/or shortening daylight hours. The fixed point to change the clocks just gives them something to focus on.
No… I am not complaining about the shortening or lengthening of the days. I well understand how the relationship between the ecliptic plane and the axis of earth’s rotation interact over the course of a year to cause this phenomenon and why it is exaggerated the further you get towards the poles. I am perfectly fine adapting to this phenomenon without screwing with the clock and having 10,000 different rules for when it happens around the world. I favor sticking with one timezone because I see no benefit to screwing with the clock and I’d rather just leave it alone. I really don’t care whether California is in PST, MST, PDT, UTC, or any other timezone, so long as we simply pick one and stay there year round.
Keeping everything on standard time and adjusting schedules makes the most sense for letting kids travel too and from with the most daylight possible; but taking just the example of working parents, they would need all of their kids' schools to agree to the same change, as well as their workplace.
Actually, if you kept everything on standard time and didn’t adjust schedules, you’d be faced with up to an extra hour of daylight before school beyond what you get now, but otherwise, there would be no additional consequence, so IMHO, that makes the most sense. Maximizes the daylight for kids traveling and doesn’t require schedule adjustment.
Alas, the true solution is education.
It is difficult to educate those who remain willfully ignorant. This phenomenon is the basis for modern American politics. Owen
On 3/15/22 3:09 PM, Matthew Huff wrote:
They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens again. The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in the winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during most of the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When the tragedy happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this again... History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce... Matthew Huff | Director of Technical Operations | OTA Management LLC Office: 914-460-4039 mhuff@ox.com | www.ox.com ........................................................................................................................................... -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+mhuff=ox.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Jay R. Ashworth Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:30 PM To: Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST Oh. This was "Unanimous Consent"? AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do not want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?" I'd missed that; thanks. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc> To: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US Mountain time.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman <list-nanog2@dragon.net> wrote:
eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be eric> a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing eric> the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done eric> consistently throughout North America.
You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens again. The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in the winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during most of the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When the tragedy happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this again...
Or, perhaps, schools just adjust times a little bit to accommodate. Also, I live in upstate NY, and even with the current time implementation, there was plenty of times that I was out for the bus when it was dark already. I don't mean to sound like 'when I was a kid, uphill, both ways' here, but I certainly can't find any references to a massive uptake in kids getting doinked by cars at dark bus stops in that 70s experiment. On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 6:09 PM Matthew Huff <mhuff@ox.com> wrote:
They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens again. The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in the winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during most of the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When the tragedy happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this again...
History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce...
Matthew Huff | Director of Technical Operations | OTA Management LLC
Office: 914-460-4039 mhuff@ox.com | www.ox.com
...........................................................................................................................................
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+mhuff=ox.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Jay R. Ashworth Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:30 PM To: Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
Oh. This was "Unanimous Consent"? AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do not want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?"
I'd missed that; thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc> To: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US Mountain time.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman <list-nanog2@dragon.net> wrote:
eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be eric> a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing eric> the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done eric> consistently throughout North America.
You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On 2022-03-16, at 13:26, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
I certainly can't find any references to a massive uptake in kids getting doinked by cars at dark bus stops in that 70s experiment.
Of course not. The game is that at least one kid will die in the time an experiment runs, and the press will latch to that event and make a big stink that winter DST is unsafe. The fact that as many kids would have died without winter DST is not relevant because of availability bias. That’s why it can’t be an experiment. Grüße, Carsten
Probably worse for the people who border Indiana; we always wonder if we're on the same time as who we're dealing with, depending on where in Indiana the other person is. From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+jasonbaugher=adamstel.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Paul Ebersman Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:35 PM To: Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a eric> real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the eric> border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done eric> consistently throughout North America. You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think. Jason Baugher, Network Operations Manager 405 Emminga Road | PO Box 217 | Golden, IL 62339-0217 P (217) 696-4411 | F (217) 696-4811 | www.adams.net<http://www.adams.net/> [Adams-Logo]<http://adams.net/> ________________________________ The information contained in this email message is PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL, and is intended for the use of the addressee and no one else. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute, reproduce or use this email message (or the attachments) and notify the sender of the mistaken transmission. Thank you.
On 3/15/22 21:40, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America.
Rwanda and Uganda are bordering one another in East Africa - but are 1hr apart. It's the oddest thing, considering the sun rises and falls at the same time for both. Mark.
15 degrees east is Jay’s snarky way of describing permanently putting everyone on a timezone that was formerly applicable to a position roughly 15º east of their current position. In other words, Permanent Daylight Savings time. Owen
On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:19 , Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more clearly.
-mel via cell
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
Mind if I ask where you got this? Nowhere can I find an article or bill referencing this specific point. This article <https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2022/03/15/us-senate-passes-bill-to-make-daylight-saving-time-permanent-what-it-means/> references a Senate bill from March 9th 2021 <https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623/text> that makes no mention of this point at all. Regards, Peter On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:14 PM Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
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On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
While I thoroughly agree with item 1, I suggest that the seismic consequences of item 2 would not be favorable.
Wouldn't that move Detroit into Lake Erie? From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bkain1=ford.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of james.cutler@consultant.com Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:16 PM To: Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding. On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote: In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would 1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east. While I thoroughly agree with item 1, I suggest that the seismic consequences of item 2 would not be favorable.
Ok, this just in from MST3K: “The change will take place at noon earth time.” -mel via cell On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:53 PM, Kain, Becki (.) <bkain1@ford.com> wrote: Wouldn’t that move Detroit into Lake Erie? From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bkain1=ford.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of james.cutler@consultant.com Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:16 PM To: Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding. On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote: In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would 1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east. While I thoroughly agree with item 1, I suggest that the seismic consequences of item 2 would not be favorable.
WaPo has a been there done that item today. https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-sav... On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
What I don’t understand, is why change time, just change working hours. I’m all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably still be UTC offset. If you work 9-5, change it to 10-6. Every company can post working hours on their website. Obviously for most of us, it’s a moot point. P.S. Anyone working at NIST or a similar org probably needs a raise for dealing with all the exceptions.
On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:16 PM, Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com> wrote:
WaPo has a been there done that item today.
https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-sav... <https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-saving-time-in-the-70s-people-hated-it/>
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com <mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote: In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com <mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info <http://www.bcp38.info/> 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
In the 70's, you couldn't check your smartphone to find out when a business was open, so there was a certain assumption that it would be open not only during "normal business hours", but that it would be consistent throughout the year. We live in a completely different world today, where I'd venture to say that the majority of the population isn't starting their day at dawn and ending it at dusk. Farmers work on that kind of schedule, but they don't care what the clock says anyway. In today's world, it's pretty trivial for businesses to notify customers of schedule changes. So I agree, we should stick with UTC offset, or standard time, and let businesses handle changing their hours during the summer to earlier if they want to give their employees more "daytime". Jason From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+jasonbaugher=adamstel.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Eric Tykwinski Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:37 PM To: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST What I don't understand, is why change time, just change working hours. I'm all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably still be UTC offset. If you work 9-5, change it to 10-6. Every company can post working hours on their website. Obviously for most of us, it's a moot point. P.S. Anyone working at NIST or a similar org probably needs a raise for dealing with all the exceptions. On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:16 PM, Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com<mailto:joly@punkcast.com>> wrote: WaPo has a been there done that item today. https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-sav... On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> wrote: In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would 1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east. My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult. I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on... Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info<http://www.bcp38.info/> 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274 -- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- - Jason Baugher, Network Operations Manager 405 Emminga Road | PO Box 217 | Golden, IL 62339-0217 P (217) 696-4411 | F (217) 696-4811 | www.adams.net<http://www.adams.net/> [Adams-Logo]<http://adams.net/> ________________________________ The information contained in this email message is PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL, and is intended for the use of the addressee and no one else. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute, reproduce or use this email message (or the attachments) and notify the sender of the mistaken transmission. Thank you.
"Farmers work on that kind of schedule" With GPS and now even RTK-assisted GPS, farmers don't care if it's noon or midnight, though obviously working near normal human awake times makes the search for labor easier. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Baugher" <jasonbaugher@adamstel.com> To: "Eric Tykwinski" <eric-list@truenet.com>, "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:18:46 PM Subject: RE: "Permanent" DST In the 70’s, you couldn’t check your smartphone to find out when a business was open, so there was a certain assumption that it would be open not only during “normal business hours”, but that it would be consistent throughout the year. We live in a completely different world today, where I’d venture to say that the majority of the population isn’t starting their day at dawn and ending it at dusk. Farmers work on that kind of schedule, but they don’t care what the clock says anyway. In today’s world, it’s pretty trivial for businesses to notify customers of schedule changes. So I agree, we should stick with UTC offset, or standard time, and let businesses handle changing their hours during the summer to earlier if they want to give their employees more “daytime”. Jason From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+jasonbaugher=adamstel.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Eric Tykwinski Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:37 PM To: nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST What I don’t understand, is why change time, just change working hours. I’m all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably still be UTC offset. If you work 9-5, change it to 10-6. Every company can post working hours on their website. Obviously for most of us, it’s a moot point. P.S. Anyone working at NIST or a similar org probably needs a raise for dealing with all the exceptions. On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:16 PM, Joly MacFie < joly@punkcast.com > wrote: WaPo has a been there done that item today. https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-sav... On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay R. Ashworth < jra@baylink.com > wrote: <blockquote> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would 1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east. My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult. I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on... Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274 -- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- - </blockquote> Jason Baugher, Network Operations Manager 405 Emminga Road | PO Box 217 | Golden, IL 62339-0217 P (217) 696-4411 | F (217) 696-4811 | www.adams.net Adams-Logo The information contained in this email message is PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL, and is intended for the use of the addressee and no one else. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute, reproduce or use this email message (or the attachments) and notify the sender of the mistaken transmission. Thank you.
On 2022-03-15 14:37, Eric Tykwinski wrote:
What I don’t understand, is why change time, just change working hours. I’m all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably still be UTC offset. If you work 9-5, change it to 10-6. Every company can post working hours on their website. Obviously for most of us, it’s a moot point.
That requires a behaviour change from "the people" who are not known for changing behaviour in any sort of useful manner. The time change yields the behaviour change without "the people" realizing that's what happened, so they go on about their day blithely complaining about the time change but none the wiser about what really happened.
P.S. Anyone working at NIST or a similar org probably needs a raise for dealing with all the exceptions.
Insert the Tom Scott rant about time zones from Computerphile.
I’m all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably still be UTC offset.
That's literally what the text of the bill does. On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:08 PM Eric Tykwinski <eric-list@truenet.com> wrote:
What I don’t understand, is why change time, just change working hours. I’m all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably still be UTC offset. If you work 9-5, change it to 10-6. Every company can post working hours on their website. Obviously for most of us, it’s a moot point.
P.S. Anyone working at NIST or a similar org probably needs a raise for dealing with all the exceptions.
On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:16 PM, Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com> wrote:
WaPo has a been there done that item today.
https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-sav...
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
"..rational time worldwide"? Like all of China in one timezone and Mumbai :30 off center? and Arizona? and that one county in Idaho? I can't agree with any technical objections because there is already the need to account for all these bizarre details worldwide and even DST in the US changed in 2007. There is however strong data and evidence that every year in November when we set clocks back and hour traffic fatalities increase, crime increases, retail sales drop and depression increases. Avoiding that is good enough reason for me to support this. *Brandon Svec* On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 12:13 PM Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 02:06:50PM -0700, Brandon Svec via NANOG wrote:
"..rational time worldwide"? Like all of China in one timezone and Mumbai :30 off center? and Arizona? and that one county in Idaho?
The word "rational" does not belong in a sentence discussing timezones or even general time issues. We're taught from a young age that you wake up at, well for the sake of argument, let's agree on 7AM. You learn that businesses are "9AM to 5PM", etc. These are basically all arbitrary choices, based off hysterical raisins that have to do with the position of the sun at noon, in an era where there weren't better ways to synchronize clocks. We COULD all work in UTC and un-learn the weird system of hour offsets and timezones. This would be convenient for people at a distance, since it would be simply a matter of stating availability hours, rather than giving someone hours AND a timezone and making them do the math. If I say that I'm available for an hour at 22:00 UTC, that works out anywhere on the globe. But do you know what timezone "CDT" is? When's "17:00 CDT"? ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net "The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"-Asimov
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:09 PM Joe Greco <jgreco@ns.sol.net> wrote:
We COULD all work in UTC and un-learn the weird system of hour offsets and timezones. This would be convenient for people at a distance, since it would be simply a matter of stating availability hours, rather than giving someone hours AND a timezone and making them do the math. If I say that I'm available for an hour at 22:00 UTC, that works out anywhere on the globe. But do you know what timezone "CDT" is? When's "17:00 CDT"?
Seems like an issue that could be solved by some simple tech that I'm surprised Apple and Google haven't really implemented. My sister is a "world traveler". I have no idea what country she'll be in next week. If I decide to call her, I have no idea what timezone she'll be in...let alone what "normal sleeping hours" are for her when she's jet-lagged after a 14 hour flight. I just call her phone and see if she answers. I think just about every smartphone has a rudimentary "do not disturb" feature built in. My Google phone automatically switches to DND when it's on the charging stand after 10 PM and turns off when I pick it up in the morning. The multitude of chat apps have presence. Online, available, free to chat, busy, unavailable, offline, do-not-disturb. Why doesn't that exist for phone numbers? Create a public queryable server that shows a status for a phone number. Set your status to some pre-defined value or make a custom status: { status: "doing my taxes", do-not-disturb: true, emergencies: true, typical_availability: { start: "14:00:00 GMT", end: "04:00:00 GMT", } } I know FreePBX has presence support internally for extensions. Come up with a standard, integrate it with cell phones and you've solved interrupting people because you don't know what arbitrary time numbers and offsets they are using. Android and iOS could have a 'master switch' on every phone. Set your status and all your various apps can pick up that status including voice calls. Android (and I'm sure iOS has it too) provides a way to say "these contacts can override DND". All that's left to solve is in-person stuff...which already currently sucks. "My flight leaves at 6 AM local time and lasts 90 minutes, but I'm crossing 3 timezones heading west...so you need to pick me up at...uh....4:30 AM your time? Oh wait....are you currently in DST or not because we don't do DST here, but I think you do....so you either need to pick me up at 4:30 AM or 3:30 AM...I'm not sure....what's your time is it now? Ok, it's 5 AM my time and 7 AM your time, so no DST, so...uh...but next week your zone is switching to DST but we're already on it..." vs "My flight leaves at 06:00 zulu, lasts 90 minutes, so I'm landing at 7:30 zulu. See you then." For the record, I was always told DST was implemented because of farmers. I'm a farmer and I hate timezones. I just wake up when the rooster starts crowing, and no one goes out to adjust him twice a year for DST. -A
"My flight leaves at 6 AM local time and lasts 90 minutes, but I'm crossing 3 timezones heading west...so you need to pick me up at...uh....4:30 AM your time? Oh wait....are you currently in DST or not because we don't do DST here, but I think you do....so you either need to pick me up at 4:30 AM or 3:30 AM...I'm not sure....what's your time is it now? Ok, it's 5 AM my time and 7 AM your time, so no DST, so...uh...but next week your zone is switching to DST but we're already on it..."
Um, if you manage to cross 3 timezones in 90 minutes, you have a VERY fast aircraft or you are really far north. Most jet airliners max out somewhere approximating 500 statute MPH (actually a little less) not accounting for wind. Going west, you’re usually against the wind (northern hemisphere, you’re with the wind in the southern hemisphere). At the equator, timezones are roughly 1,000 miles (technically 1037.56) wide (earth has a roughly 8,000 mile diameter for an approximately 24,000 mile circumference). Obviously, they get narrower as you get farther from the equator, but not linearly so. At 45º Latitude, this becomes 733.84 SM. The half-width point is approximately 60º latitude (518.97 SM). To put some perspective on this, Portland, OR is roughly 45º North. Seattle, WA is roughly 47º North. To get to 60º N, you’re looking at such densely populated locales as Whitehorse, Yukon Territory (60.72º North). Whitehorse is (by far) the largest city in the entire Yukon Territory. Admittedly, St. Petersburg, RU is also very close to 60º North and a bit more populous. Coincidentally, 60º latitude. To put this in some additional perspective, the arctic and antarctic circles are at approximately 66.5º latitude. Those circles approximately enclose the areas where the sun does not set within 24 hours of the summer solstice. (The actual phenomenon is a little larger due to refraction). I’m not sure if there are direct flights between (e.g. Winnipeg and Whitehorse), but that’s an example of a city pair that would be necessary to do a 90 minute flight crossing 3 timezones going west, assuming no wind at altitude, though Winnipeg is a bit of a fudge since it’s only 49.9º latitude). I couldn’t find a place outside of Antarctica that was wide enough to have 3 timezones at 60º Latitude. Australia came closest, but Adelaide is only 34.93º South. I don’t think there are two airports at that spacing on Antarctica, either. There might be feasible options in Europe. Perhaps Reykjavik to Oslo or Stockholm might do the trick. Nonetheless, your point about timezone absurdity and flight calculations is well taken. Daylight Stupid Time (and the some do/some don’t and on a variety of schedules) doesn’t make it any easier, either.
vs
"My flight leaves at 06:00 zulu, lasts 90 minutes, so I'm landing at 7:30 zulu. See you then."
For the record, I was always told DST was implemented because of farmers. I'm a farmer and I hate timezones. I just wake up when the rooster starts crowing, and no one goes out to adjust him twice a year for DST.
I would definitely favor flights operating and/or publishing their schedules in UTC rather than local times. (or at least having the UTC times available adjacent to the local times). I’m not opposed to the idea of switching everyone to UTC and letting “9 to 5” become “X to Y” depending on location, but I suspect that would break too many people’s brains to ever gain wide acceptance from the majority of voters that would have to approve such a thing. Heck, California couldn’t even figure out that it was a good idea to vote to get rid of Daylight Stupid Time. (Note, by get rid, I am not advocating for being PST all year. I don’t care whether we go PST or MST all year, I just want to pick one time zone for the entire year and stop jumping back and forth for reasons utterly passing understanding). Owen
It appears that Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <aaron@heyaaron.com> said:
All that's left to solve is in-person stuff...which already currently sucks.
"My flight leaves at 6 AM local time and lasts 90 minutes, but I'm crossing 3 timezones heading west...
It could be worse. In non-COVID times there are flights between Honolulu (HNL) and Kirimati (CXI) which take about three hours but there is a 24-hour time change.
On 3/16/2022 7:11 AM, John Levine wrote: It appears that Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <aaron@heyaaron.com> said: All that's left to solve is in-person stuff...which already currently sucks. "My flight leaves at 6 AM local time and lasts 90 minutes, but I'm crossing 3 timezones heading west... It could be worse. In non-COVID times there are flights between Honolulu (HNL) and Kirimati (CXI) which take about three hours but there is a 24-hour time change. -------------------------------------------------------------- Darn International Date Line. Until a person gets used to it things are confusing. Explaining it to folks is so painful I just stopped. Me: "When dealing with Australia, it's the next day." Other person: "What the heck do you mean???" scott
Please provide a link documenting this claim. I have been reviewing the actions listed on congress.gov, and this is not an action listed as having taken place. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623/all-actions?ove... The last action shown for this bill was taken on March 9th, 2021, more than a year ago. Thanks! Matt On Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 12:14 Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
S.623 as amended, literally hundreds of Tweets in the last 2 hours tell me. Yeah, this just happened today. That would be why NPR lead with it on the 4 p.m. newscast. On March 15, 2022 6:07:36 PM EDT, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
Please provide a link documenting this claim.
I have been reviewing the actions listed on congress.gov, and this is not an action listed as having taken place.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623/all-actions?ove...
The last action shown for this bill was taken on March 9th, 2021, more than a year ago.
Thanks!
Matt
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 12:14 Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
And here's the NPR story which leads with "the Senate passed a bill": https://www.npr.org/2022/03/15/1086773840/daylight-saving-time-permanent-sen... I really don't know why that site does not list it, because it certainly should. But here you are. On March 15, 2022 6:07:36 PM EDT, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
Please provide a link documenting this claim.
I have been reviewing the actions listed on congress.gov, and this is not an action listed as having taken place.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623/all-actions?ove...
The last action shown for this bill was taken on March 9th, 2021, more than a year ago.
Thanks!
Matt
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 12:14 Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Always on or always off, I don't care which, just pick one and give sufficient lead time for development. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay R. Ashworth" <jra@baylink.com> To: "nanog@nanog.org list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 2:11:19 PM Subject: "Permanent" DST In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would 1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east. My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult. I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on... Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
No development really necessary… Just pick the corresponding standard-time timezone and turn off the DST flip flopping. E.g. if you are in California and go always-on, then simply mark it as MST year round. (i.e. just like you’re in Arizona today, which is MST year round, no DST). Owen
On Mar 16, 2022, at 05:57 , Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Always on or always off, I don't care which, just pick one and give sufficient lead time for development.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> From: "Jay R. Ashworth" <jra@baylink.com <mailto:jra@baylink.com>> To: "nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 2:11:19 PM Subject: "Permanent" DST
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
1) Cancel DST permanently, and 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their decision on this engineering construct.
Cheers, -- jra
-- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com <mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info <http://www.bcp38.info/> 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen DeLong" <owen@delong.com>
No development really necessary… Just pick the corresponding standard-time timezone and turn off the DST flip flopping.
E.g. if you are in California and go always-on, then simply mark it as MST year round. (i.e. just like you’re in Arizona today, which is MST year round, no DST).
And... Owen illustrates my initial rhetoric about "moving to the east 15 degrees". Have we not learned, yet, the "don't lie to the computers" rule? How *would* the timezone libraries handle "DST always on"? They would still have to flap, twice a year, right? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
How *would* the timezone libraries handle "DST always on"? They would still have to flap, twice a year, right?
AFAIK, the way stuff works now is essentially "always get the standard time, adjust it if DST is enabled and in effect." On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 1:42 PM Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen DeLong" <owen@delong.com>
No development really necessary… Just pick the corresponding standard-time timezone and turn off the DST flip flopping.
E.g. if you are in California and go always-on, then simply mark it as MST year round. (i.e. just like you’re in Arizona today, which is MST year round, no DST).
And... Owen illustrates my initial rhetoric about "moving to the east 15 degrees".
Have we not learned, yet, the "don't lie to the computers" rule?
How *would* the timezone libraries handle "DST always on"? They would still have to flap, twice a year, right?
Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On Mar 16, 2022, at 10:41 , Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen DeLong" <owen@delong.com>
No development really necessary… Just pick the corresponding standard-time timezone and turn off the DST flip flopping.
E.g. if you are in California and go always-on, then simply mark it as MST year round. (i.e. just like you’re in Arizona today, which is MST year round, no DST).
And... Owen illustrates my initial rhetoric about "moving to the east 15 degrees".
Have we not learned, yet, the "don't lie to the computers" rule?
How *would* the timezone libraries handle "DST always on"? They would still have to flap, twice a year, right?
Uh, no. they wouldn’t. MST with DST off == PDT year round. Simple. No semi-annual change required. If you don’t want to lie to the computer, then all one needs to do is rename the corresponding timezone files… MST becomes the new PST file, etc. Of course at some point, the timezone files went weird and started getting named after cities instead of timezones, so the renaming is a little less intuitive, but it’s still doable. Owen
On 3/16/22 10:41, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
Have we not learned, yet, the "don't lie to the computers" rule?
How *would* the timezone libraries handle "DST always on"? They would still have to flap, twice a year, right?
It depends. The easy ones have two settings with an optional third. 1. Offset from UTC 2. DST yes/no 3. Specify date and time to switch DST on/off. Setting 3's default was tweaked in 2007 in the US when DST was expanded. Easy-peasy. Set the appropriate offset in option 1 and set option 2 to No. Option 3 is irrelevant. Some systems are dumbed-down with drop-down menus listing cities like "Americas-Los Angeles" and similar. These will require a bit of work on the back end. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
It appears that Jay Hennigan <jay@west.net> said:
Some systems are dumbed-down with drop-down menus listing cities like "Americas-Los Angeles" and similar. These will require a bit of work on the back end.
Unix and linux systems have a timezone database that has the historic time zones for everywhere they know about. The internal time format is always seconds since the beginning of 1970 UTC, and the libraries use the database to convert back and forth to display formats. Updating the timezone database is just like updating any other files in your computer. If you install the usual system updates, you'll be fine. R's, John
This is a weirdly long thread, mostly unrelated to NANOG, it seems. The work for how this will be implemented in most of our computers happens on the TZ list by thoughtful people with lots and lots of experience on the subject: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/ I believe the last change in the US was more than a decade ago, but time zone data changes somewhere in the world on a very very regular basis. Ask
Indeed. I was quite surprised to learn that an issue we were dealing with was a result of not having have the latest TZ file installed. On 3/16/2022 4:47 PM, Ask Bjørn Hansen wrote:
This is a weirdly long thread, mostly unrelated to NANOG, it seems.
The work for how this will be implemented in most of our computers happens on the TZ list by thoughtful people with lots and lots of experience on the subject: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/
I believe the last change in the US was more than a decade ago, but time zone data changes somewhere in the world on a very very regular basis.
Ask
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