How anti-NSA backlash could fracture the Internet along national borders - The Washington Post
The balkanizing of the Net? http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/01/how-anti-nsa-ba... Cheers, - jra -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
In article <ee045d19-797d-4346-8793-b854e528f813@email.android.com> you write:
The balkanizing of the Net?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/01/how-anti-nsa-ba...
I expect we'll hear lots of pontification, quietly fading away when someone explains to the pontificators just how expensive it would be to do what they want, and ask where the money is coming from. It would be swell if Brazil routed its Internet traffic somewhere other than Miami, for purely technical reasons of resilience and shorter routes. But that would require a cable to other places (Africa and Europe.) They can do that any time, so long as they pay for it. See http://jl.ly/ICANN/zimmerman.html
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 3:06 PM, John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
In article <ee045d19-797d-4346-8793-b854e528f813@email.android.com> you write:
The balkanizing of the Net?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/01/how-anti-nsa-ba...
I expect we'll hear lots of pontification, quietly fading away when someone explains to the pontificators just how expensive it would be to do what they want, and ask where the money is coming from.
It would be swell if Brazil routed its Internet traffic somewhere other than Miami, for purely technical reasons of resilience and shorter routes. But that would require a cable to other places (Africa and Europe.) They can do that any time, so long as they pay for it.
I can't be the only one to have been following this 12.8TB of neat-o-ness: http://www.bricscable.com/ -Jim P.
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Jim Popovitch <jimpop@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 3:06 PM, John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
In article <ee045d19-797d-4346-8793-b854e528f813@email.android.com> you write:
The balkanizing of the Net?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/01/how-anti-nsa-ba...
I expect we'll hear lots of pontification, quietly fading away when someone explains to the pontificators just how expensive it would be to do what they want, and ask where the money is coming from.
It would be swell if Brazil routed its Internet traffic somewhere other than Miami, for purely technical reasons of resilience and shorter routes. But that would require a cable to other places (Africa and Europe.) They can do that any time, so long as they pay for it.
I can't be the only one to have been following this 12.8TB of neat-o-ness:
-Jim P.
I wince for the copy-editor that missed the typo in this headline: http://www.bricscable.com/blog/brics-scale-black-plan-to-challenge-west/ Matt
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Jim Popovitch <jimpop@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 3:06 PM, John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
In article <ee045d19-797d-4346-8793-b854e528f813@email.android.com> you write:
The balkanizing of the Net?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/01/how-anti-nsa-ba...
I expect we'll hear lots of pontification, quietly fading away when someone explains to the pontificators just how expensive it would be to do what they want, and ask where the money is coming from.
It would be swell if Brazil routed its Internet traffic somewhere other than Miami, for purely technical reasons of resilience and shorter routes. But that would require a cable to other places (Africa and Europe.) They can do that any time, so long as they pay for it.
I can't be the only one to have been following this 12.8TB of neat-o-ness:
-Jim P.
I wince for the copy-editor that missed the typo in this headline:
http://www.bricscable.com/blog/brics-scale-black-plan-to-challenge-west/
Yeah. I reported that to them over the Summer... hopefully their cable laying crew is more attentive to detail. ;-) -Jim P.
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Jim Popovitch <jimpop@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't be the only one to have been following this 12.8TB of neat-o-ness:
" 34 000 km, 2 fibre pair, 12.8 Tbit/s" so.... you can get 80 waves on a single pair, 80 100g waves? that's 8tbps where's the missing 6 in the above? Did the other pair only get 40g waves? that seems short sighted :(
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Jim Popovitch <jimpop@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't be the only one to have been following this 12.8TB of neat-o-ness:
" 34 000 km, 2 fibre pair, 12.8 Tbit/s"
so.... you can get 80 waves on a single pair, 80 100g waves? that's 8tbps where's the missing 6 in the above? Did the other pair only get 40g waves? that seems short sighted :(
The remaining bandwidth is obviously for network management polling. lol :-) -Jim P.
John Levine wrote:
I expect we'll hear lots of pontification, quietly fading away when someone explains to the pontificators just how expensive it would be to do what they want, and ask where the money is coming from.
For countries other than US, mandating domestic servers prevents money going away to US through US based companies. It is expensive only for those having foreign servers, which nullifies advantages of global service companies over domestic ones. Masataka Ohta
This is not 100% true, the economics of hosting and providing layer 7 services are not longer strictly defined by geographic boundaries, also some local companies (global or not) provide services locally regardless of the location (or multiple locations) of the servers. There is no field on the IP packet header to indicate to which political mandate the packet belongs. -Jorge On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 4:48 AM, Masataka Ohta < mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> wrote:
John Levine wrote:
I expect we'll hear lots of pontification, quietly fading away when someone explains to the pontificators just how expensive it would be to do what they want, and ask where the money is coming from.
For countries other than US, mandating domestic servers prevents money going away to US through US based companies.
It is expensive only for those having foreign servers, which nullifies advantages of global service companies over domestic ones.
Masataka Ohta
Jorge Amodio wrote:
There is no field on the IP packet header to indicate to which political mandate the packet belongs.
If a service provider violates some local regulation, the provider will be punished, which is the political mandate. That is, the service provider should better observe related local regulations as long as they want to have business at the locale. Masataka Ohta
That is correct (not everywhere) but it has no direct relationship with the economics plus violating local or international laws is way above layer 7 Also there is no uniform and universal standard that defines what is or is not a violation. -Jorge
On Nov 4, 2013, at 7:17 AM, Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> wrote:
Jorge Amodio wrote:
There is no field on the IP packet header to indicate to which political mandate the packet belongs.
If a service provider violates some local regulation, the provider will be punished, which is the political mandate.
That is, the service provider should better observe related local regulations as long as they want to have business at the locale.
Masataka Ohta
Just wanted to add something to the discussion: http://www.renesys.com/2013/10/google-dns-departs-brazil-ahead-new-law/ Basically, they are claiming possible new laws in Brazil have left Google to shut down DNS services locally. -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamodio@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 8:37 AM To: Masataka Ohta Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: How anti-NSA backlash could fracture the Internet along national borders - The Washington Post That is correct (not everywhere) but it has no direct relationship with the economics plus violating local or international laws is way above layer 7 Also there is no uniform and universal standard that defines what is or is not a violation. -Jorge
On Nov 4, 2013, at 7:17 AM, Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> wrote:
Jorge Amodio wrote:
There is no field on the IP packet header to indicate to which political mandate the packet belongs.
If a service provider violates some local regulation, the provider will be punished, which is the political mandate.
That is, the service provider should better observe related local regulations as long as they want to have business at the locale.
Masataka Ohta
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Eric Tykwinski <eric-list@truenet.com> wrote:
Just wanted to add something to the discussion: http://www.renesys.com/2013/10/google-dns-departs-brazil-ahead-new-law/
Basically, they are claiming possible new laws in Brazil have left Google to shut down DNS services locally.
Dramatic Theater? Google is doing the same thing in Australia (servers in Sydney, results returned from Taipei). Their actions, and the timing thereof, in Brazil are fodder for those that believe Google and the USG are locked together at the hip. -Jim P.
Casual comment: This scheme, have a problem. USA is friend of country A,and country B. A is spying on B, and share the results with USA. B is spying on A and share the results with USA. A and B can make a network, but will be all but private. -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje.
Saying that advocating for an open and global Internet is a nog part of USG's cyber-espionage efforts is completely preposterous. -Jorge
On Nov 2, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
The balkanizing of the Net?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/01/how-anti-nsa-ba...
Cheers, - jra -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
I'm afraid I can't glark 'nog' in that sentence from context... Jorge Amodio <jmamodio@gmail.com> wrote:
Saying that advocating for an open and global Internet is a nog part of USG's cyber-espionage efforts is completely preposterous.
-Jorge
On Nov 2, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
The balkanizing of the Net?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/01/how-anti-nsa-ba...
Cheers, - jra -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
-- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
LOL, I was typing on an iPad and didn't notice, s/nog/big/ Thanks for the catch. -J On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
I'm afraid I can't glark 'nog' in that sentence from context...
Jorge Amodio <jmamodio@gmail.com> wrote:
Saying that advocating for an open and global Internet is a nog part of USG's cyber-espionage efforts is completely preposterous.
-Jorge
On Nov 2, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
The balkanizing of the Net?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/01/how-anti-nsa-ba...
Cheers, - jra -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
-- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
On Sat, Nov 02, 2013 at 01:12:54PM -0400, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote a message of 8 lines which said:
The balkanizing of the Net?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/01/how-anti-nsa-ba...
So, to host your content in the servers of NSA providers is freedom and hosting it anywhere else is balkanizing the Internet?
I've never seen a byte claiming any nationality, Internet network topology is not geopolitical (at least a vast percentage of it) and routing policy != politics. When now in a "cloud" world your data may get replicated anywhere, trying to create "islands" (which btw are not immune to eavesdropping) only limits the access and level of service to end users. The NSA issue (which is not just the NSA or the USG) is a political problem, given the mandate and the funds, any agency in the world will try to sniff data wherever it is located, and sometimes it does not require too much technology or investment, often the weakest link is a badly paid technician or corrupt enough government official, anywhere. My .02 -Jorge
On Nov 2, 2013, at 9:07 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 02, 2013 at 01:12:54PM -0400, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote a message of 8 lines which said:
The balkanizing of the Net?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/11/01/how-anti-nsa-ba...
So, to host your content in the servers of NSA providers is freedom and hosting it anywhere else is balkanizing the Internet?
participants (11)
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Christopher Morrow -
Eric Tykwinski -
Jay Ashworth -
Jim Popovitch -
John Levine -
Jon Sands -
Jorge Amodio -
Masataka Ohta -
Matthew Petach -
Stephane Bortzmeyer -
Tei