home router battery backup
Hi NANOG mailing list, I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS? Thanks. Scott Reference for 47 CFR Section 9.20: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-...
On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Thanks. Scott
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure. I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area. ---- Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 andy@andyring.com
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote:
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
Same here. The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their home routers are fellow geeks. I even bought one and shipped it to my ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it. "Too complicated".
I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area.
Same. My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units backed by Champion transfer switches. Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later I'm running on generator power. My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's Starlink. Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be offline. ;) -A
I too see very little gear protected by a UPS. In nicaragua, even, when I lived there, and the power flickered 6x times a day, "normal" people just accepted it. However, with the huge implosion of battery costs and increase in power from the cellphone revolution, and how little power most home routing gear uses (usually under 6w) it really does strike me as plausible we could see a capable battery land in more home routing gear as a feature more users might buy, and not just for backup telephony.. On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:39 AM Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote:
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
Same here. The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their home routers are fellow geeks. I even bought one and shipped it to my ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it. "Too complicated".
I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area.
Same. My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units backed by Champion transfer switches. Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later I'm running on generator power. My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's Starlink.
Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be offline. ;)
-A
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
On 1/12/22 10:43 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
I too see very little gear protected by a UPS. In nicaragua, even, when I lived there, and the power flickered 6x times a day, "normal" people just accepted it.
However, with the huge implosion of battery costs and increase in power from the cellphone revolution, and how little power most home routing gear uses (usually under 6w) it really does strike me as plausible we could see a capable battery land in more home routing gear as a feature more users might buy, and not just for backup telephony..
That might be good for transient glitches, but with real power outages it begs the question of everything else that needs power. We deal with days long outages all of the time because of PG&E, so the router being powered is just a small piece of the equation. Mike
On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote: Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
Same here. The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their home routers are fellow geeks. I even bought one and shipped it to my ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it. "Too complicated".
I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area.
Same. My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units backed by Champion transfer switches. Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later I'm running on generator power. My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's Starlink.
Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be offline. ;)
In my case (California, home of SCE and PG&E), we have been notified by our electrical grid operators that power can go down at any time, for any reason, and any duration. I have just moved, so I am speaking in a historical context and future plans, but we have solar electricity as well and have a battery in the home that in effect backs up part of the house. We don't back up the Internet service, because frankly if power is down in the grid I'm not sure my favorite router is all that important, in addition to the considerations already mentioned. But power can and does go down - even without asteroids.
On 1/12/22 11:25 AM, Fred Baker wrote:
On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote: Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
Same here. The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their home routers are fellow geeks. I even bought one and shipped it to my ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it. "Too complicated".
I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area.
Same. My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units backed by Champion transfer switches. Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later I'm running on generator power. My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's Starlink.
Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be offline. ;) In my case (California, home of SCE and PG&E), we have been notified by our electrical grid operators that power can go down at any time, for any reason, and any duration. I have just moved, so I am speaking in a historical context and future plans, but we have solar electricity as well and have a battery in the home that in effect backs up part of the house. We don't back up the Internet service, because frankly if power is down in the grid I'm not sure my favorite router is all that important, in addition to the considerations already mentioned. But power can and does go down - even without asteroids.
We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 day and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking at a generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it handles the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with the transfer switch. It's gone from being the occasional nuisance in the winter to all year long these days. Our power outage over the holidays lasted 12 days. This isn't just a rural problem anymore in California, it's a pretty much everywhere problem now. Mike
Do we know if there are common reasons why these power outages are on the rise across different states and if this is expected to continue ? Ahmed On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 11:43 AM Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 1/12/22 11:25 AM, Fred Baker wrote:
On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com>
wrote:
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
Same here. The only people I've seen that have battery backups for
I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list)
am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area.
Same. My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS
units backed by Champion transfer switches. Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later I'm running on generator power.
My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's Starlink.
Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be offline. ;) In my case (California, home of SCE and PG&E), we have been notified by our electrical grid operators that power can go down at any time, for any reason, and any duration. I have just moved, so I am speaking in a historical context and future plans, but we have solar electricity as well and have a battery in the home that in effect backs up part of the house. We don't back up the Internet service, because frankly if power is down in
nanog@nanog.org> wrote: their home routers are fellow geeks. I even bought one and shipped it to my ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it. "Too complicated". the grid I'm not sure my favorite router is all that important, in addition to the considerations already mentioned. But power can and does go down - even without asteroids.
We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 day and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking at a generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it handles the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with the transfer switch. It's gone from being the occasional nuisance in the winter to all year long these days. Our power outage over the holidays lasted 12 days. This isn't just a rural problem anymore in California, it's a pretty much everywhere problem now.
Mike
On 1/12/22 2:37 PM, Ahmed elBornou wrote:
Do we know if there are common reasons why these power outages are on the rise across different states and if this is expected to continue ?
Climate change. We're living it. That and PG&E is corrupt. Mike
Ahmed
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 11:43 AM Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 1/12/22 11:25 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > >> On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote: >> Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure. >> >> Same here. The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their home routers are fellow geeks. I even bought one and shipped it to my ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it. "Too complicated". >> >> I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area. >> >> Same. My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units backed by Champion transfer switches. Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later I'm running on generator power. >> My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's Starlink. >> >> Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be offline. ;) > In my case (California, home of SCE and PG&E), we have been notified by our electrical grid operators that power can go down at any time, for any reason, and any duration. I have just moved, so I am speaking in a historical context and future plans, but we have solar electricity as well and have a battery in the home that in effect backs up part of the house. We don't back up the Internet service, because frankly if power is down in the grid I'm not sure my favorite router is all that important, in addition to the considerations already mentioned. But power can and does go down - even without asteroids.
We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 day and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking at a generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it handles the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with the transfer switch. It's gone from being the occasional nuisance in the winter to all year long these days. Our power outage over the holidays lasted 12 days. This isn't just a rural problem anymore in California, it's a pretty much everywhere problem now.
Mike
Armchair quarterbacking here: Increasing --- Demand Age of infrastructure Capital Costs Operational Costs Government mismanagement Decreasing --- Tolerance for outages Tolerance for price increases Competence ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ahmed elBornou" <amaged@gmail.com> To: "Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 4:37:33 PM Subject: Re: home router battery backup Do we know if there are common reasons why these power outages are on the rise across different states and if this is expected to continue ? Ahmed On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 11:43 AM Michael Thomas < mike@mtcc.com > wrote: On 1/12/22 11:25 AM, Fred Baker wrote:
On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG < nanog@nanog.org > wrote:
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth < andy@andyring.com > wrote: Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
Same here. The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their home routers are fellow geeks. I even bought one and shipped it to my ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it. "Too complicated".
I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area.
Same. My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units backed by Champion transfer switches. Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later I'm running on generator power. My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's Starlink.
Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be offline. ;) In my case (California, home of SCE and PG&E), we have been notified by our electrical grid operators that power can go down at any time, for any reason, and any duration. I have just moved, so I am speaking in a historical context and future plans, but we have solar electricity as well and have a battery in the home that in effect backs up part of the house. We don't back up the Internet service, because frankly if power is down in the grid I'm not sure my favorite router is all that important, in addition to the considerations already mentioned. But power can and does go down - even without asteroids.
We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 day and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking at a generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it handles the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with the transfer switch. It's gone from being the occasional nuisance in the winter to all year long these days. Our power outage over the holidays lasted 12 days. This isn't just a rural problem anymore in California, it's a pretty much everywhere problem now. Mike
On 1/13/22 04:02, Mike Hammett wrote:
Armchair quarterbacking here:
Increasing --- Demand Age of infrastructure Capital Costs Operational Costs Government mismanagement
Pressure from the tree huggers to lower carbon output that results from "traditional" power generation, and yet nobody wants to reduce their own demand for power. I'm all for renewables, but at micro scale. Renewables at grid scale, without a corresponding shift in demand habits, is a little naive, I think. It's nice to say that power companies must go all renewables, when, as a consumer, you want to keep flipping switches like you did in the coal days. I just don't see it as a reality, when it comes down to it. Mark.
On 1/12/22 21:41, Michael Thomas wrote:
We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 day and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking at a generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it handles the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with the transfer switch.
Or maybe the other way around - perhaps you should be looking for an inverter that handles all power sources... battery, utility and generator, so you don't have to worry about managing the transfer. The inverter makes the choice on what power source to use to form its local grid, and only calls in the generator to recharge the batteries on poor weather days. I run my inverter in "off-grid" mode, and we use the utility grid as a generator, meaning our primary power sources are solar and battery (no generator here - I have enough battery and PV to last 1.5 days on a single charge). The benefit of running it in off-grid mode is that transfer from grid failure to battery is 0ms - 20ms, depending on how the failure occurred. Both are indistinguishable for home appliances. Mark.
On 1/12/22 9:21 PM, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 1/12/22 21:41, Michael Thomas wrote:
We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 day and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking at a generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it handles the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with the transfer switch.
Or maybe the other way around - perhaps you should be looking for an inverter that handles all power sources... battery, utility and generator, so you don't have to worry about managing the transfer.
That's what I have. Or at least that's what SolarEdge is promising for the generator part of the equation with a software upgrade. Mike
On 1/12/22 20:37, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG wrote:
Same. My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units backed by Champion transfer switches. Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later I'm running on generator power. My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's Starlink.
Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be offline. ;)
I'm also fortunate to have whole-home backup (as well as self-generation with PV), especially in a country that is currently struggling with sustaining energy delivery in recent years. A number of folk, here in South Africa, have been investing in, at the very least, so-called Micro UPS', that are small and cheap enough to drive a GPON ONU + wi-fi router, via DC. https://www.takealot.com/ultralan-micro-ups-dc-poe-45w-8-8ah/PLID70728025 Mark.
At my last employer we installed lots of Adtrans at Car Dealerships, Hotels, and other SMBs. It was common for them to have a small UPS but 9 times out of 10 the UPS 2-3 times older than the life cycle of the battery and no one ever knew that you could change the battery in them. So they usually just had a heavy power strip that was prone to failing after a power loss. We did have the option to install a battery back up on the Adtran but it would have been useless because most of them didn’t have any kind of backup power for their PBXs. I’m pretty sure that my own power protection on my network gear and theater gear far exceeded the average end user’s remote offices. -richey From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 1:16 PM To: Scott T Anderson <standerson4@wisc.edu>, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: home router battery backup
On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Thanks. Scott
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure. I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area. ---- Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 andy@andyring.com
Hi everyone, Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are very helpful. Your (collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on questions: For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power outage? Are the modems with backup power designed to operate for a specified period of time without power and if so, for how long and how was that duration identified? If those with backup power do maintain Internet access during a power outage, do they lose that access if the power outage extends beyond a certain time? I.e., does the ISP network equipment go offline at some point in time due to batteries being drained and not having power generation capabilities? Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience! Scott From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+standerson4=wisc.edu@nanog.org> On Behalf Of richey.goldberg@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:38 PM To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: home router battery backup At my last employer we installed lots of Adtrans at Car Dealerships, Hotels, and other SMBs. It was common for them to have a small UPS but 9 times out of 10 the UPS 2-3 times older than the life cycle of the battery and no one ever knew that you could change the battery in them. So they usually just had a heavy power strip that was prone to failing after a power loss. We did have the option to install a battery back up on the Adtran but it would have been useless because most of them didn't have any kind of backup power for their PBXs. I'm pretty sure that my own power protection on my network gear and theater gear far exceeded the average end user's remote offices. -richey From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail.com@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail.com@nanog.org>> on behalf of Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com<mailto:andy@andyring.com>> Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 1:16 PM To: Scott T Anderson <standerson4@wisc.edu<mailto:standerson4@wisc.edu>>, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: Re: home router battery backup
On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Thanks. Scott
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone's home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure. I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area. ---- Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 andy@andyring.com<mailto:andy@andyring.com>
As a home user I have everything behind battery backup, my desktop, switches between buildings, and home server rack. Any outage that lasts less than 30 minutes will not kick me offline. I mainly have my equipment behind UPS to protect from surges/storms and to account for power blinks or breaker trips which happen much more often when you’re working with 70 year old farm buildings. Thank you, -- Ryland From: Scott T Anderson via NANOG<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 7:28 AM To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: home router battery backup Hi everyone, Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are very helpful. Your (collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on questions: For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power outage? Are the modems with backup power designed to operate for a specified period of time without power and if so, for how long and how was that duration identified? If those with backup power do maintain Internet access during a power outage, do they lose that access if the power outage extends beyond a certain time? I.e., does the ISP network equipment go offline at some point in time due to batteries being drained and not having power generation capabilities? Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience! Scott From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+standerson4=wisc.edu@nanog.org> On Behalf Of richey.goldberg@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:38 PM To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: home router battery backup At my last employer we installed lots of Adtrans at Car Dealerships, Hotels, and other SMBs. It was common for them to have a small UPS but 9 times out of 10 the UPS 2-3 times older than the life cycle of the battery and no one ever knew that you could change the battery in them. So they usually just had a heavy power strip that was prone to failing after a power loss. We did have the option to install a battery back up on the Adtran but it would have been useless because most of them didn’t have any kind of backup power for their PBXs. I’m pretty sure that my own power protection on my network gear and theater gear far exceeded the average end user’s remote offices. -richey From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail.com@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail.com@nanog.org>> on behalf of Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com<mailto:andy@andyring.com>> Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 1:16 PM To: Scott T Anderson <standerson4@wisc.edu<mailto:standerson4@wisc.edu>>, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: Re: home router battery backup
On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Thanks. Scott
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure. I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area. ---- Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 andy@andyring.com<mailto:andy@andyring.com>
Greetings, I am a home user. Much of my home has been rewired to run off of 12-volts D.C. from a large 1200 Amp/Hour LiFePO4 battery bank that is recharged using Solar. All my lighting, ceiling fans, water pump, Ham radio gear, weather alert radio, USB charging stations, alarm system, security cameras and DVR, my wife's CPAP machine, 40-inch flat screen TV, ROKU streaming device, etc. all now run off 12 VDC. High consumption devices like stove, refrigerators, air conditioners, furnace, still run on AC but get *much* of their power from a 5kw Grid-Tied Solar array (Enphase IQ7 microinverters) which I hope to soon add a battery backup to. There is also a whole-house 4kw backup generator. This is what is known as a "Hybrid" home :) ALL of my servers, workstations, routers/hubs, WiFi, are also converted to run on 12VDC from this battery/solar plant. In many cases it is just a matter of adding a DC-DC buck/booster regulator that can be purchased on Amazon for ten bucks, or so. These generally take 8-40 volts input and will deliver whatever voltage output that you desire. Both my DSL and FTTH are powered this way. It was mentioned that we need to address *reducing* our power consumption in order to reduce our carbon footprint. This ongoing project has helped me to do just that and eliminate so many "power suckers" and wall-warts from my home. We consume around 150 watts on DC and generally around 600 watts on AC (unless a freezer or air conditioner cycles on). When the power goes out, sometimes we don't immediately notice it! I think I am living inside a giant UPS, and more independance from the Grid is refreshing. Enjoy! --- Jay Nugent WB8TKL Ypsilanti, Michigan jjn@nuge.com
From: Scott T Anderson via NANOG Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 7:28 AM To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG Subject: RE: home router battery backup
Hi everyone,
Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are very helpful. Your (collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on questions:
For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power outage?
Are the modems with backup power designed to operate for a specified period of time without power and if so, for how long and how was that duration identified?
If those with backup power do maintain Internet access during a power outage, do they lose that access if the power outage extends beyond a certain time? I.e., does the ISP network equipment go offline at some point in time due to batteries being drained and not having power generation capabilities?
Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience!
Scott
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 7:41 AM Jay <jjn@nuge.com> wrote:
We consume around 150 watts on DC and generally around 600 watts on AC (unless a freezer or air conditioner cycles on). When the power goes out, sometimes we don't immediately notice it! I think I am living inside a giant UPS, and more independance from the Grid is refreshing.
*boggles* I bought one of those power monitors and tossed it on the circuit that goes into my house. At *night* when everything is off, I might get down as far as ~800 watts. During the day it's more like 2,000-3,500. If I get the hat-trick (water heater, central air, and well pump) running at the same time, I can get up to ~24,000 watts. The down-side...it's only monitoring the branch that leads to the house. My office is on a separate branch. My neighbor pays around $150 every two months on their power bill. I pay just under ~$260 *every month*. *sigh* I definitely notice it when the power goes out. The sound of UPS relays and alarms is enough to wake the dead. -A
On 1/13/22 17:56, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG wrote:
I bought one of those power monitors and tossed it on the circuit that goes into my house. At *night* when everything is off, I might get down as far as ~800 watts. During the day it's more like 2,000-3,500.
Almost the same here... down to about 700W between 11PM - 4:30AM, and mostly 1,500W - 2,000W during the day, unless the Mrs. wants to grill some chicken or do some baking in the oven that day. Fair point, it's a family of 4 + 1, so...
If I get the hat-trick (water heater, central air, and well pump) running at the same time, I can get up to ~24,000 watts.
Ouch! For our traditional water heater, we're using a system that can power the tank elements either via its own independent PV array or via the grid (where the grid is either the main house's PV array or the utility): https://www.geyserworx.co.za/ I, then, added tankless, on-demand gas heaters into the mix, and piped that into the house: https://gasgeysers.co.za/qr/20lt-room-sealed-fan-forced-gas-geyser/ I use a solenoid valve attached to a little IoT thingie to switch between the tankless gas heater and the traditional tank, depending on time-of-day. Tankless heater on at 8PM - 10:30AM, and traditional tank on at 10:31AM - 7:59PM (unless we had poor solar yield that day and it didn't heat up enough). In all, we haven't had to use the utility to heat water since we went this route. Saved tons of cash, and guarantees a hot shower any day, any weather.
I definitely notice it when the power goes out. The sound of UPS relays and alarms is enough to wake the dead.
For my setup, even if we generally can transfer from utility grid to battery backup between 0ms - 20ms, I attached UPS's to all sensitive appliances in the house as an additional backup anyway (small ones, 1kVA - 2kVA, type-thing). The reason for that is if we have an outage while the battery inverter is forming its grid from the utility, there are instances where the power outage is not a clean one (like a brownout, or slow low voltage event), and this would trip the battery as the inverter tries to quickly re-form the grid from the battery (230V/50Hz). In such cases, the battery would protect itself from a possible short circuit, and shutdown for about 50ms, but that's long enough to power down the inverter, and it would take 60 seconds for it to restart. During that time, the UPS's will keep appliances running (Internet, TV, computers, consoles, a/v, e.t.c.). Of course, if a utility outage occurred when the inverter was forming its grid from the battery, then we won't notice anything. I've added voltage sensors to the grid supply to cut the power before the voltage gets too low, too quickly (cut at 219V), but that only improved the situation slightly. There are other inverters that have their own internal voltage sensors that could handle this far better, but I preferred the model I went with for its data management capabilities. Mark.
On 1/13/22 8:22 PM, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 1/13/22 17:56, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG wrote:
I bought one of those power monitors and tossed it on the circuit that goes into my house. At *night* when everything is off, I might get down as far as ~800 watts. During the day it's more like 2,000-3,500.
Almost the same here... down to about 700W between 11PM - 4:30AM, and mostly 1,500W - 2,000W during the day, unless the Mrs. wants to grill some chicken or do some baking in the oven that day.
Y'all are power hogs. We're at about 350 watts most of the time, and even that bugs me. Mike
On 1/14/22 18:47, Michael Thomas wrote:
Y'all are power hogs. We're at about 350 watts most of the time, and even that bugs me.
When the kids leave the house in a few years, that footprint should come down for us. It's amazing how much power a PS4 in full swing draws... Then again, we are essentially off-grid, so I take comfort in that. Mark.
On 1/13/22 17:38, Jay wrote:
Greetings, I am a home user. Much of my home has been rewired to run off of 12-volts D.C. from a large 1200 Amp/Hour LiFePO4 battery bank that is recharged using Solar. All my lighting, ceiling fans, water pump, Ham radio gear, weather alert radio, USB charging stations, alarm system, security cameras and DVR, my wife's CPAP machine, 40-inch flat screen TV, ROKU streaming device, etc. all now run off 12 VDC. High consumption devices like stove, refrigerators, air conditioners, furnace, still run on AC but get *much* of their power from a 5kw Grid-Tied Solar array (Enphase IQ7 microinverters) which I hope to soon add a battery backup to. There is also a whole-house 4kw backup generator. This is what is known as a "Hybrid" home :)
ALL of my servers, workstations, routers/hubs, WiFi, are also converted to run on 12VDC from this battery/solar plant. In many cases it is just a matter of adding a DC-DC buck/booster regulator that can be purchased on Amazon for ten bucks, or so. These generally take 8-40 volts input and will deliver whatever voltage output that you desire. Both my DSL and FTTH are powered this way.
It was mentioned that we need to address *reducing* our power consumption in order to reduce our carbon footprint. This ongoing project has helped me to do just that and eliminate so many "power suckers" and wall-warts from my home.
We consume around 150 watts on DC and generally around 600 watts on AC (unless a freezer or air conditioner cycles on). When the power goes out, sometimes we don't immediately notice it! I think I am living inside a giant UPS, and more independance from the Grid is refreshing.
This is amazing! I couldn't possibly find the energy to convert any (never mind all) of my standard appliances to DC, but what you've done is very impressive, especially since you are talking about a house and not a boat! Well done! Mark.
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:38:53AM -0500, Jay wrote:
Greetings, I am a home user. Much of my home has been rewired to run off of 12-volts D.C. from a large 1200 Amp/Hour LiFePO4 battery bank that is recharged using Solar. All my lighting, ceiling fans, water pump, Ham radio gear, weather alert radio, USB charging stations, alarm system, security cameras and DVR, my wife's CPAP machine, 40-inch flat screen TV, ROKU streaming device, etc. all now run off 12 VDC.
What was required to run your 40" television on 12V? Did you replace its internal PSU, or just feed it a boosted DC voltage? (For anyone unaware, most, but not all, switchmode supplies are happy running from DC in the same general range as their marked AC voltage. Some are polarity-sensitive, and active PFC occasionally causes trouble. Also, small commodity MSW inverters can be easily changed into 12V -> 160V or 12V -> 300V DC/DC boost converters by disabling and bypassing their final chopper stage, at considerable efficiency gain. Just don't run the boosted DC through switches, relays, or breakers meant for AC - these will quickly fail in such use due to arcing and/or welded contacts! Fuse the DC-input side.) I've gone down a similar path, standardizing on Anderson Powerpoles for 12V distribution, but limited my scope to 24/7 loads, phones, telecom/network/radio equipment, other low-wattage electronics, and a small fraction of (LED) lighting, to avoid extending heavy-gauge copper all over the house. One motivation was to reduce the impact if our main household inverter were to fail while operating off grid. Another was let that unit be turned off at night with little inconvenience, or put into "search" mode where it switches on only when detecting that an intermittent load wants to run, such as the well pump or refrigerator. Newer fridges with electronic controls unfortunately don't like to operate in this mode, but have gained enough efficiency to more than make up for standby inverter loss. My 12V bank is still AGM lead-acid, but doesn't see frequent discharge, usually floating from solar during the day and from a central AC supply at night, providing the grid is up. 24V is available too from the garage PV solar system batteries, though only in two rooms. This runs a 24V->12V DC/DC to power the 12V bus (normally current-limited by PWM signal from the PV charge controllers, based on available sun. This makes better use of limited PV power in morning & evening hours than the large Outback Power hybrid inverter would, with its 40W standby loss. To circle back somewhat to the original topic, Outback was acquired by Alpha Power several years ago, but I haven't yet noticed much integration between their traditional telco/MSO product line and the Outback equipment.
High consumption devices like stove, refrigerators, air conditioners, furnace, still run on AC but get *much* of their power from a 5kw Grid-Tied Solar array (Enphase IQ7 microinverters) which I hope to soon add a battery backup to. There is also a whole-house 4kw backup generator. This is what is known as a "Hybrid" home :)
I installed a 120V-only protected loads subpanel next to our main panel and moved most circuits over, to take advantage of the Outback hybrid inverter's integral automatic transfer switch and use it as an (almost) whole-house UPS. 240V circuits drop, but little else does. Most importantly, refrigeration and our well-water pump (1hp, ~1200W draw, too large for practical DC conversion) can remain powered indefinitely, whether anyone is home or not. Central HVAC is not backed up, but we can run a couple of window units. Due to its use of heavy 60A relays, the transfer time of this type of inverter is a bit slow by UPS standards, roughly 30ms, but no computers or other AC loads seem to mind. Important gear is all on 12V anyway. There is an alternate, zero-transfer-time mode of operation where the inverter is kept constantly running in phase-lock to incoming power, and steps in even before the isolation relay fully opens. This comes at the cost of 20+W of additional 24/7 load, and may not entirely meet the letter of UL1741 or IEEE1547 anti-backfeed requirements, so I opted against.
ALL of my servers, workstations, routers/hubs, WiFi, are also converted to run on 12VDC from this battery/solar plant. In many cases it is just a matter of adding a DC-DC buck/booster regulator that can be purchased on Amazon for ten bucks, or so. These generally take 8-40 volts input and will deliver whatever voltage output that you desire. Both my DSL and FTTH are powered this way.
My sister-in-law bought an off-grid home whose previous owner had wired every room for both 12VDC and 120VAC. Lighting, fans, etc. were nearly all 12V. This was nice at first, especially the old and noisy MSW inverter, but did complicate their eventual upgrade to a larger system and its required 48V battery bank. They required a large DC/DC converter, losing out on some of the efficiency gain, and elected not to extend 12V when building a new addition onto the home.
It was mentioned that we need to address *reducing* our power consumption in order to reduce our carbon footprint. This ongoing project has helped me to do just that and eliminate so many "power suckers" and wall-warts from my home.
This was part of my motivation as well, but thanks to efficiency mandates in the EU and elsewhere, most modern wall-warts and other PSUs are not nearly so bad as they used to be. A good switchmode design with cycle-skipping, where the main oscillator only runs intermittently at low or zero load, can be enough to reduce standby loss to 0.2W or less.
We consume around 150 watts on DC and generally around 600 watts on AC (unless a freezer or air conditioner cycles on). When the power goes out, sometimes we don't immediately notice it! I think I am living inside a giant UPS, and more independance from the Grid is refreshing.
With no HVAC, freezer/fridge or well pump running, we're usually in the 250-300W range, which includes the DC rectifier. A neighbor was puzzled at calling to ask if our power was out, when I said "let me go check...'
Enjoy! --- Jay Nugent WB8TKL Ypsilanti, Michigan jjn@nuge.com
-- Jordan - AK4PZ
On 1/13/22 01:11, Scott T Anderson via NANOG wrote:
For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power outage?
In 2016, there was a massive storm in my neighborhood that flooded my fibre provider's GPON PoP. That was an outage. In 2018, there was a neighborhood-wide power outage that caught the provider off-guard re: their own backup. In recent years, the provider has been able to maintain uptime through extended and/or multiple daily power outages. But in the end, your provider will be the weakest link, if you are able to keep your devices powered throughout a lengthy or multi-day outage. The mobile operators don't seem to be able to last more than 8hrs in my neck of the woods, and worse if the the day has multiple outages, as the battery never gets a chance to fully recharge.
Are the modems with backup power designed to operate for a specified period of time without power and if so, for how long and how was that duration identified?
All comes down to how large the battery is, and how much the site's demand is.
If those with backup power do maintain Internet access during a power outage, do they lose that access if the power outage extends beyond a certain time? I.e., does the ISP network equipment go offline at some point in time due to batteries being drained and not having power generation capabilities?
Again, down to battery and demand sizing. The other issue here is if there are multiple outages in the same 24hr period, the ability for the operator to sustain uptime decreases, because the battery never gets a full charge again. Mark.
On Jan 12, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power outage?
I honestly don’t know. My entire subdivision is fairly new (early 2000s) and all utilities are underground. Therefore, power outages are extremely rare. We’ve lived in this house for 9 years and I think there’s been maybe one short outage due to a blown transformer somewhere, several years ago. Last winter though during the EXTREME cold snap where we hit -31 in Lincoln, Nebraska, the power company did have to resort to deliberately shutting off entire neighborhoods for short periods, 30-45 minutes, to maintain the overall grid. My home was not in one of the affected areas, but we were close. My office was though, and that was a shitstorm. We are a small company, less than 20 people, most of whom work from home. The power company said the rotating outages would be 30-45 minutes, which I do have UPS capacity to handle. But the rotating outage went close to 2 hours, exhausting my UPS capacity and getting to the point where I was more concerned about the temperature in the building. However, during that time I do know my ISP had no trouble. Allo Communications, a FTTH outfit. ---- Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 andy@andyring.com
On 1/13/22 17:15, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
The power company said the rotating outages would be 30-45 minutes, which I do have UPS capacity to handle. But the rotating outage went close to 2 hours, exhausting my UPS capacity and getting to the point where I was more concerned about the temperature in the building.
Having had extensive experience with load shedding growing up this side of the world (sadly), the outage period announced by the power company may or may not include the time required to re-energize the affected areas. So when they say 30 - 45 minutes, you should ask them if that includes or excludes the time allowance for re-energizing. In South Africa, load shedding can be announced as 2hrs or 4hrs. However, the schedule will be printed as 2.5hrs or 4.5hrs, with those extra 30 minutes added to allow for engineers to re-energize neighborhoods. Also, transformers and distribution switching gear is not designed to be operated in an on/off fashion. So things can go wrong when neighborhoods are re-energized, e.g., trips from downstream customer surge overloads, downstream transformers that trip and cascade, e.t.c. Mark.
On Jan 13, 2022, at 9:22 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
The power company said the rotating outages would be 30-45 minutes, which I do have UPS capacity to handle. But the rotating outage went close to 2 hours, exhausting my UPS capacity and getting to the point where I was more concerned about the temperature in the building.
Having had extensive experience with load shedding growing up this side of the world (sadly), the outage period announced by the power company may or may not include the time required to re-energize the affected areas.
So when they say 30 - 45 minutes, you should ask them if that includes or excludes the time allowance for re-energizing.
The utility had never experienced that before either. The entire city only had a couple hours notice that this would be happening. Oh well. We got through it. -Andy
On 1/13/22 17:44, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
The utility had never experienced that before either. The entire city only had a couple hours notice that this would be happening.
Oh well. We got through it.
Chances are they have since upgraded their experience and procedures for this occurrence :-). Mark.
On 1/12/22 3:11 PM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG wrote:
Hi everyone,
Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are very helpful. Your (collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on questions:
For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power outage?
For my ISP, they maintain backup power for both DSL and POTS. I suspect that for a lot of DSL that would hold true because it's relatively easy for them to power since they already have the battery backup requirements for POTS. The setup they have here is a DSLAM and SIP->POTS termination in a pedestal with fiber backhaul. They use the old copper that used to go back to the CO to power the pedestal. Mike
As one of those Telco/ISP's, it's growing more and more likely that DSL/POTS are now on the same card and they are all tied into the 48V battery and generator protected plant. And Alpha Electronics is probably selling a lot of those Power over Copper systems for powering remote Calix E3-12C and E3-48 DSLAMs (as well as their competitor's equivalents), as well as powering the ONT in any building with more than one dwelling unit connected to it. BTW, Calix ONTs default to "Disable on battery = on" for the GigE ports - it's checkbox in the config to turn that off so they stay up when the power is out. Which we do uncheck. Particularly since we've going increasingly VOIP and our employees can connect remotely. Sadly, I suspect that trying to get a major telco to go in and uncheck that box for you would be the equivalent to talking to a wall. As to the original poster's request, after wildfires, ice storms, and wind storms of the past year and a half, and lumberjacks clearing trees damaged by those events and dropping them on the power lines since then, more and more of our customers are investing in backup power solutions, even if it is just a UPS to level out the brownouts. But it still is probably not a significant percentage of the total. On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 2:08 PM Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 1/12/22 3:11 PM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG wrote:
Hi everyone,
Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are very helpful. Your (collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on questions:
For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power outage?
For my ISP, they maintain backup power for both DSL and POTS. I suspect that for a lot of DSL that would hold true because it's relatively easy for them to power since they already have the battery backup requirements for POTS. The setup they have here is a DSLAM and SIP->POTS termination in a pedestal with fiber backhaul. They use the old copper that used to go back to the CO to power the pedestal.
Mike
-- Jeff Shultz -- Like us on Social Media for News, Promotions, and other information!! <https://www.facebook.com/SCTCWEB/> <https://www.instagram.com/sctc_sctc/> <https://www.yelp.com/biz/sctc-stayton-3> <https://www.youtube.com/c/sctcvideos> _**** This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. ****_
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 11:43 AM Jeff Shultz <jeffshultz@sctcweb.com> wrote:
BTW, Calix ONTs default to "Disable on battery = on" for the GigE ports - it's checkbox in the config to turn that off so they stay up when the power is out. Which we do uncheck. Particularly since we've going increasingly VOIP and our employees can connect remotely. Sadly, I suspect that trying to get a major telco to go in and uncheck that box for you would be the equivalent to talking to a wall.
My "small" (< ~5,000 customers) ISP won't uncheck that box for me no matter how much I beg, plead, or offer to bring them snacks for their office. They keep mumbling stuff about FCC requirements which I suspect is just handwaving. Oh well...it's on a generator-protected outlet now. -A
On 1/17/22 2:24 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG wrote:
My "small" (< ~5,000 customers) ISP won't uncheck that box for me no matter how much I beg, plead, or offer to bring them snacks for their office.
Chuckle.
They keep mumbling stuff about FCC requirements which I suspect is just handwaving. Oh well...it's on a generator-protected outlet now.
I've been known to find a crack in such armor when I start asking for information on the regulation so that I can read up on it and learn ~> understand it. If it's real, they can usually get it to me in a week or so. If it's fake, I get crickets until I push and escalate for the information, at which point I find out "it's company policy". Policy can be a double edge sword, especially when you find an example of them violating their own policy. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 02:06:39PM -0800, Michael Thomas wrote:
For my ISP, they maintain backup power for both DSL and POTS. I suspect that for a lot of DSL that would hold true because it's relatively easy for them to power since they already have the battery backup requirements for POTS. The setup they have here is a DSLAM and SIP->POTS termination in a pedestal with fiber backhaul. They use the old copper that used to go back to the CO to power the pedestal.
Do you happen to know what voltage is placed across the copper pairs for this purpose? Maybe 130V like T1 span repeaters? More? I used to have three POTS lines at home from BellSouth, before the AT&T acquisition, with DSL on one of them, all supposedly served from the same Lucent SLC. One of these, the one originally used for DSL, would always go down for both voice and data when the SLC lost power-- no DC, no dialtone, no DSL, while the other two remained up. Despite several claims of a resolution, this was never properly fixed, so eventually I just had them move DSL over to one of the unaffected lines. I could never understand what failure mode would result in losing just a single POTS line like this while the carrier equipment was running from battery, while others remained in service. Speculating, perhaps only the A or B-side was backed up, and an open diode or other defect caused a single ine card to draw only from the "other" source? But, at this time (circa 2000) the remote DSLAM was definitely a separate piece of equipment, right, joined to a shared subscriber pair with passive splitters?
Mike
-- Jordan.
On 1/17/22 2:39 PM, Jordan wrote:
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 02:06:39PM -0800, Michael Thomas wrote:
For my ISP, they maintain backup power for both DSL and POTS. I suspect that for a lot of DSL that would hold true because it's relatively easy for them to power since they already have the battery backup requirements for POTS. The setup they have here is a DSLAM and SIP->POTS termination in a pedestal with fiber backhaul. They use the old copper that used to go back to the CO to power the pedestal. Do you happen to know what voltage is placed across the copper pairs for this purpose? Maybe 130V like T1 span repeaters? More?
I used to have three POTS lines at home from BellSouth, before the AT&T acquisition, with DSL on one of them, all supposedly served from the same Lucent SLC. One of these, the one originally used for DSL, would always go down for both voice and data when the SLC lost power-- no DC, no dialtone, no DSL, while the other two remained up. Despite several claims of a resolution, this was never properly fixed, so eventually I just had them move DSL over to one of the unaffected lines.
I could never understand what failure mode would result in losing just a single POTS line like this while the carrier equipment was running from battery, while others remained in service. Speculating, perhaps only the A or B-side was backed up, and an open diode or other defect caused a single ine card to draw only from the "other" source? But, at this time (circa 2000) the remote DSLAM was definitely a separate piece of equipment, right, joined to a shared subscriber pair with passive splitters?
I have absolutely no idea, but if I had to guess it is the same voltage as the local loop but I suppose they could use ring voltage too. Mike, definitely not a EE
+180v and -180v for a total of 360v. At really low amperage. Still makes a respectable bang if you short it on the MDF. It gets converted on-site, either in the DSLAM or in a separate box. I think it's 12v to the ONT. On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 3:30 PM Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 1/17/22 2:39 PM, Jordan wrote:
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 02:06:39PM -0800, Michael Thomas wrote:
For my ISP, they maintain backup power for both DSL and POTS. I suspect that for a lot of DSL that would hold true because it's relatively easy for them to power since they already have the battery backup requirements for POTS. The setup they have here is a DSLAM and SIP->POTS termination in a pedestal with fiber backhaul. They use the old copper that used to go back to the CO to power the pedestal. Do you happen to know what voltage is placed across the copper pairs for this purpose? Maybe 130V like T1 span repeaters? More?
I used to have three POTS lines at home from BellSouth, before the AT&T acquisition, with DSL on one of them, all supposedly served from the same Lucent SLC. One of these, the one originally used for DSL, would always go down for both voice and data when the SLC lost power-- no DC, no dialtone, no DSL, while the other two remained up. Despite several claims of a resolution, this was never properly fixed, so eventually I just had them move DSL over to one of the unaffected lines.
I could never understand what failure mode would result in losing just a single POTS line like this while the carrier equipment was running from battery, while others remained in service. Speculating, perhaps only the A or B-side was backed up, and an open diode or other defect caused a single ine card to draw only from the "other" source? But, at this time (circa 2000) the remote DSLAM was definitely a separate piece of equipment, right, joined to a shared subscriber pair with passive splitters?
I have absolutely no idea, but if I had to guess it is the same voltage as the local loop but I suppose they could use ring voltage too.
Mike, definitely not a EE
-- Jeff Shultz -- Like us on Social Media for News, Promotions, and other information!! <https://www.facebook.com/SCTCWEB/> <https://www.instagram.com/sctc_sctc/> <https://www.yelp.com/biz/sctc-stayton-3> <https://www.youtube.com/c/sctcvideos> _**** This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. ****_
On 1/17/22 3:39 PM, Jordan wrote:
One of these, the one originally used for DSL, would always go down for both voice and data when the SLC lost power-- no DC, no dialtone, no DSL, while the other two remained up. Despite several claims of a resolution, this was never properly fixed
I never had that specific problem. But I occasionally had problems with repairs on B1s, a.k.a. "Life saving service" lines. I had a couple of times that I had to threaten going to the Public Utilities Commission in the state for the ILEC's failure to repair a line. I'll give the first failed repair gratis. I make a comment when scheduling the second repair that they really need to fix it as I'd hate to have to report the failure to the PUC. The third repair was more along the lines of "you fix this (now / on my time frame) or I am reporting this with full details to the PUC". Thankfully I only had to report things to the PUC one time. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
In Vermont I have a Tesla Powerwall that Green Mountain Power paid for if I agreed to let them manage it. Since then I’ve never had an outage of any kind, I usually figure out that there is one by seeing my neighbors’ lights go off. I’ve also had great luck with my ISP, which is Comcast. Even before we had the Powerwall, when the power would go out the (older) Comcast router would work on its own battery backup and my laptop would flip over to battery power, so I didn’t have any loss of connectivity even then. --John From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+jlightfoot=gmail.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 8:28 AM To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: home router battery backup Hi everyone, Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are very helpful. Your (collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on questions: For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power outage? Are the modems with backup power designed to operate for a specified period of time without power and if so, for how long and how was that duration identified? If those with backup power do maintain Internet access during a power outage, do they lose that access if the power outage extends beyond a certain time? I.e., does the ISP network equipment go offline at some point in time due to batteries being drained and not having power generation capabilities? Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience! Scott From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+standerson4=wisc.edu@nanog.org> On Behalf Of richey.goldberg@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:38 PM To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: home router battery backup At my last employer we installed lots of Adtrans at Car Dealerships, Hotels, and other SMBs. It was common for them to have a small UPS but 9 times out of 10 the UPS 2-3 times older than the life cycle of the battery and no one ever knew that you could change the battery in them. So they usually just had a heavy power strip that was prone to failing after a power loss. We did have the option to install a battery back up on the Adtran but it would have been useless because most of them didn’t have any kind of backup power for their PBXs. I’m pretty sure that my own power protection on my network gear and theater gear far exceeded the average end user’s remote offices. -richey From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail.com@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail.com@nanog.org>> on behalf of Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com<mailto:andy@andyring.com>> Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 1:16 PM To: Scott T Anderson <standerson4@wisc.edu<mailto:standerson4@wisc.edu>>, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: Re: home router battery backup
On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Thanks. Scott
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure. I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area. ---- Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 andy@andyring.com<mailto:andy@andyring.com>
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:29:13PM +0000, John Lightfoot wrote:
In Vermont I have a Tesla Powerwall that Green Mountain Power paid for if I agreed to let them manage it. Since then I've never had an outage of any kind, I usually figure out that there is one by seeing my neighbors' lights go off.
Wow, that's a nice program. Do you know what they keep the "reserve percentage" set to, the proportion of stored energy that will never be discharged for grid-support, but held back for island-mode use in case of an outage?
I've also had great luck with my ISP, which is Comcast. Even before we had the Powerwall, when the power would go out the (older) Comcast router would work on its own battery backup and my laptop would flip over to battery power, so I didn't have any loss of connectivity even then.
In my part of northeast Florida, although Comcast has installed outside-plant batteries when extending service to new developments, as of 2015 they would wait until customers complained (or perhaps until "enough" ordered their voice service) to upgrade older neighborhoods. Service in my area used to drop immediately at even a fractional- second grid power glitch, despite having many hours of backup on my end. It took about two months of nagging them to get the Alpha Power box supporting our fiber<->coax node and line amps replaced with one containing batteries, and nearly as long for a friend across town in the same position. Although I don't have Comcast voice service, instead using my own over-the-top VoIP, several neighbors already did by this time. I'm surprised they weren't concerned for liabiilty over failed 911 calls. Hopefully this policy has improved in the years since, but their lack of proactive replacement of failed outside-plant batteries suggests otherwise. Rather than changing these out on a schedule, or when failure is signaled by the equipment, they still appear to wait until someone complains, after which expired batteries *might* get swapped in a month or so. Voice-capable gateways and eMTA's provided to Comcast Business customers do contain lithium batteries good for several hours of service, longer than most PBXes are backed up for, but of course these are of no use when the outside plant lacks backup. For residential customers, they seem to be charging a considerable premium for the battery option: https://www.xfinity.com/support/articles/getting-a-new-battery "A backup battery for certain Comcast-provided modems can be purchased from Comcast at any time and are currently priced at $165, plus tax. Your purchase includes 24 hours of standby time, a one-year warranty and monitoring to determine when you need to purchase a new battery." -- Jordan.
On 1/18/22 00:26, Jordan wrote:
Wow, that's a nice program. Do you know what they keep the "reserve percentage" set to, the proportion of stored energy that will never be discharged for grid-support, but held back for island-mode use in case of an outage?
I don't use the Tesla Powerwall, but Li-Ion is generally the same regardless of who packages it. The difference will be what the OEM decides to set the low-voltage cut-off to on the inverter and/or BMS. I'm not sure how much the owner can configure a Tesla Powerwall, but with other installations, you can decide when your battery kicks in to run loads, or when it hands back to the grid or generator. This assumes evening time, when solar irradiation is unavailable, of course, as that is generally the preferred source of energy. I've heard that Tesla will monitor the weather in your area to "pre-charge" the Powerwall to account for possible power disruptions. While I find that rather invasive, it's a cool feature for folk who "don't want to know". Then again, I also hear that Tesla will limit or withhold support and/or warranty if you do not connect your Powerwall to the Internet for them to "manage". The downside I hear, with that, is that they can remotely adjust SoH (state of health) thresholds to lengthen battery life in order to meet warranty promises. Not sure how true that is, but I've heard it a lot. In terms of "reserve" capacity, Li-Ion can go much deeper than Lead Acid. Some inverters are setup to disconnect the battery anywhere between 3% - 20% SoC, depending on the OEM. For LFP chemistries, the BMS will usually turn the pack off at 2.50V, while for NMC, that will be around 2.75V. But different battery OEM's may be more or less aggressive with their BMS's, depending on who you choose to buy from. Mark.
Mark Tinka wrote:
On 1/18/22 00:26, Jordan wrote:
Wow, that's a nice program. Do you know what they keep the "reserve percentage" set to, the proportion of stored energy that will never be discharged for grid-support, but held back for island-mode use in case of an outage?
I don't use the Tesla Powerwall, but Li-Ion is generally the same regardless of who packages it. The difference will be what the OEM decides to set the low-voltage cut-off to on the inverter and/or BMS.
I'm not sure how much the owner can configure a Tesla Powerwall, but with other installations, you can decide when your battery kicks in to run loads, or when it hands back to the grid or generator. This assumes evening time, when solar irradiation is unavailable, of course, as that is generally the preferred source of energy.
Now how about some programming available so you can decide what thresholds and conditions remote start your genny which powers the rectifier which substitutes|augments the solar array? All those 6500 PS lying about would make awesome rectifiers..... Joe
I've heard that Tesla will monitor the weather in your area to "pre-charge" the Powerwall to account for possible power disruptions. While I find that rather invasive, it's a cool feature for folk who "don't want to know". Then again, I also hear that Tesla will limit or withhold support and/or warranty if you do not connect your Powerwall to the Internet for them to "manage". The downside I hear, with that, is that they can remotely adjust SoH (state of health) thresholds to lengthen battery life in order to meet warranty promises. Not sure how true that is, but I've heard it a lot.
In terms of "reserve" capacity, Li-Ion can go much deeper than Lead Acid. Some inverters are setup to disconnect the battery anywhere between 3% - 20% SoC, depending on the OEM. For LFP chemistries, the BMS will usually turn the pack off at 2.50V, while for NMC, that will be around 2.75V. But different battery OEM's may be more or less aggressive with their BMS's, depending on who you choose to buy from.
Mark.
On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 05:11:57PM +0200, Mark Tinka wrote:
I don't use the Tesla Powerwall, but Li-Ion is generally the same regardless of who packages it. The difference will be what the OEM decides to set the low-voltage cut-off to on the inverter and/or BMS.
Yes, but separate from their absolute low-voltage cutoff meant to protect battery cells, these hybrid storage products include a user-adjustable reserve setpoint, meant to balance their backup role with grid support and peak-shaving. Owners of home-scale PV+battery systems often sign up for time-of-use utility tariffs, where per-kWh rates are high during peak periods (day and evening), but very low at night. With a large enough system at full charge, such homes can then run autonomously for several hours after sunset, covering most or all of the peak-demand period, before switching back to grid power, and optionally recharging at night when rates and demand are low (if local solar production alone isn't enough replenishment). Of course, letting the battery discharge all the way to its 0% safety limit in its daily demand shifting role, besides prematurely aging the cells, would leave the owner without backup were an outage to strike at a bad time, in late afternoon or evening. With the utility paying for and managing distributed batteries itself, though, they'd want to derive the greatest possible return on their investment, and so probably tend to set that reserve-limit very low. Some utilities have been experimenting with using these storage systems as part of demand-side management / load shedding, where during peak periods they can signal for buildings capable of operating from battery power to start doing do for a set period of time. With enough aggregate storage available, this could avoid having to fire up an expensive-to-operate natural gas peaker plant. The battery system owner would receive bill credits, lower rates, or other incentives in exchange for allowing this, similar to how some data centers and other industrial building will be compensated for proactively switching to generator power when asked to during a high-demand period. Is anyone aware of data centers yet leveraging battery storage for a similar purpose? It would make zero economic sense with traditional lead-acid storage, of course, due to such batteries' limited cycle life and intolerance of deep discharge.
I'm not sure how much the owner can configure a Tesla Powerwall, but with other installations, you can decide when your battery kicks in to run loads, or when it hands back to the grid or generator. This assumes evening time, when solar irradiation is unavailable, of course, as that is generally the preferred source of energy.
Uilities are becoming increasingly hostile to solar net-metering, where PV system owners are credited for excess energy supplied to the grid during peak sun hours, then allowed to "draw this back" at parity after sunset, using the grid as a sort of virtual battery. They argue that such use incurs uncompensated costs (see "duck curve"), and have successfully lobbied for tariff changes in some areas to limit or end the practice. Other locales have never had net-metering. On-site storage can be a good alternative to net metering where it's unavailable, and is probably more beneficial to grid stability.
I've heard that Tesla will monitor the weather in your area to "pre-charge" the Powerwall to account for possible power disruptions. While I find that rather invasive, it's a cool feature for folk who "don't want to know". Then again, I also hear that Tesla will limit or withhold support and/or warranty if you do not connect your Powerwall to the Internet for them to "manage". The downside I hear, with that, is that they can remotely adjust SoH (state of health) thresholds to lengthen battery life in order to meet warranty promises. Not sure how true that is, but I've heard it a lot.
They apparently do this with their vehicles as well. Claimed 0%-100% figures are mapped onto a somewhat narower, but hidden true-SoC range at first, which is silently broadened over time to compensate for cell aging. Understandable, but I'm also uneasy at such information-hiding.
In terms of "reserve" capacity, Li-Ion can go much deeper than Lead Acid. Some inverters are setup to disconnect the battery anywhere between 3% - 20% SoC, depending on the OEM. For LFP chemistries, the BMS will usually turn the pack off at 2.50V, while for NMC, that will be around 2.75V. But different battery OEM's may be more or less aggressive with their BMS's, depending on who you choose to buy from.
LFP (LiFePO4), with its longer cycle life may be the best currently- available chemistry for fixed storage, where its lower gravimetric & volumetric energy density (vs NMC) doesn't matter so much. NMC has economies of scale going for it, though, along with what's likely to be an ever-increasing supply of worn electric vehicle packs, replaced after showing reduced range in that role but will plenty of life left for other applications.
Mark.
-- Jordan.
On 1/18/22 22:27, Jordan Hazen wrote:
Yes, but separate from their absolute low-voltage cutoff meant to protect battery cells, these hybrid storage products include a user-adjustable reserve setpoint, meant to balance their backup role with grid support and peak-shaving.
Yes. In the traditional battery inverter world, it's called "increased self-consumption" :-).
Owners of home-scale PV+battery systems often sign up for time-of-use utility tariffs, where per-kWh rates are high during peak periods (day and evening), but very low at night. With a large enough system at full charge, such homes can then run autonomously for several hours after sunset, covering most or all of the peak-demand period, before switching back to grid power, and optionally recharging at night when rates and demand are low (if local solar production alone isn't enough replenishment).
Indeed. Obviously, if your goal is to reduce power costs, then this is fine. The potential downside is consistent cycling of the battery, which will reduce it lifespan. Then again, batteries are getting cheaper (at least the LFP chemistry), so perhaps it might not matter much after you get a solid 5 - 8 years, at the very least, out of them.
Of course, letting the battery discharge all the way to its 0% safety limit in its daily demand shifting role, besides prematurely aging the cells, would leave the owner without backup were an outage to strike at a bad time, in late afternoon or evening.
Agreed. Between the battery and inverter OEM's, they might not let you get that low.
With the utility paying for and managing distributed batteries itself, though, they'd want to derive the greatest possible return on their investment, and so probably tend to set that reserve-limit very low.
I know that there are some markets where home owners are given incentives to buy batteries that they can use to take some load off the grid. Do you know of any markets where this is actually being done by the utility, including remote control?
Some utilities have been experimenting with using these storage systems as part of demand-side management / load shedding, where during peak periods they can signal for buildings capable of operating from battery power to start doing do for a set period of time. With enough aggregate storage available, this could avoid having to fire up an expensive-to-operate natural gas peaker plant.
I know the Australians have been fiddling around with remote management of HVAC and water heating systems as part of their demand-side management program. However, I don't think there is sufficient scale to help them reduce production enough so as to continue their use of fossil fuels. Theoretically, it's a great idea. I just don't see it in practice at scale, for an entire nation, managed by the utility.
The battery system owner would receive bill credits, lower rates, or other incentives in exchange for allowing this, similar to how some data centers and other industrial building will be compensated for proactively switching to generator power when asked to during a high-demand period.
I've always been a supporter for micro grids... either at the home level, or the neighborhood level. It's easier to manage your usage when you know how much energy you have for the day. I don't think renewables at grid scale will work, because the user has no visibility of generation capacity and constraints. They'll just keep flipping switches. So if we can put generation responsibility in the hands of the user, there is a decent chance that renewables may actually work. Plus, we use less land.
Is anyone aware of data centers yet leveraging battery storage for a similar purpose? It would make zero economic sense with traditional lead-acid storage, of course, due to such batteries' limited cycle life and intolerance of deep discharge.
I can't imagine any data centre using the battery for pure base load. Like they do with UPS's now, I'd expect the battery is really there to provide load management between grid loss and activation of the generator. You only need the battery for a few seconds to a couple of minutes. So no different from what they are currently doing with Lead Acid batteries, but with the benefit of more cycles, deeper discharging, higher energy density, less weight and less space, from Li-Ion.
Uilities are becoming increasingly hostile to solar net-metering, where PV system owners are credited for excess energy supplied to the grid during peak sun hours, then allowed to "draw this back" at parity after sunset, using the grid as a sort of virtual battery. They argue that such use incurs uncompensated costs (see "duck curve"), and have successfully lobbied for tariff changes in some areas to limit or end the practice. Other locales have never had net-metering. On-site storage can be a good alternative to net metering where it's unavailable, and is probably more beneficial to grid stability.
Personally, I just avoid all the drama of trying to do grid feed-in with our utility. For the effort and pain, the return is not worth it. I'd rather dump excess energy into the battery, and throttle back production when the battery and house loads are below the PV capacity (thank God for automated FSPC - Frequency Shift Power Control) I heard some utilities in the U.S. were limiting feed-in to about 10% - 15% of customers, but that some states have been pushing hard to raise that to 50%, much to the utility's chagrin, of course. However, it does make sense, the concerns of the utility. Imagine 1MW of PV feed-in coming into and going away from the grid when just a few seconds of cloud cover converge over the arrays of multiple customers. That kind of swing of generation can be pretty hard to manage, and increases the potential for network instability. On the other hand, nuclear and coal plants do not ramp up quickly... they need a couple of hours to spin up and stabilize. So it's easier for the utility to keep those generators spinning at steady RPM, even without the corresponding load, just so that they don't have to lose time ramping up for the evening demand, and potentially having to fall back to peaking plants that are more costly. So just because demand would be low during the day when consumers are generating their own power from PV, does not mean that the utility's costs suddenly come down during that period.
They apparently do this with their vehicles as well. Claimed 0%-100% figures are mapped onto a somewhat narower, but hidden true-SoC range at first, which is silently broadened over time to compensate for cell aging. Understandable, but I'm also uneasy at such information-hiding.
Me too! And yes, heard the same about the cars as well. 0% SoC isn't actually 0% SoC... more like somewhere between 5% - 10%. I really don't like that; rather, set an absolute low voltage cut-off limit that indicates true SoC, rather than manipulating SoH over time to manage warranty. I mean, if you are an "aggressive" driver who is consistently pummeling the battery over the course of many years, it is likely to die before the (is it?) 10-year guarantee. Artificially managing that over the period is false, because then it means as the years go by, I am wasting more time charging the car, even if all looks like it did when I first drove it out the dealership. My battery OEM considers 100% SoC at 52.4V. However, the true 100% SoC for this battery is actually 54V. So within the BMS, they have set it up for around 80% SoC true. But at least, they were honest about this with me, and since it's a stationery battery, I don't mind, really. It's still enough energy to get me through any night.
LFP (LiFePO4), with its longer cycle life may be the best currently- available chemistry for fixed storage, where its lower gravimetric & volumetric energy density (vs NMC) doesn't matter so much. NMC has economies of scale going for it, though, along with what's likely to be an ever-increasing supply of worn electric vehicle packs, replaced after showing reduced range in that role but will plenty of life left for other applications.
The Chinese have been experimenting with LFP for vehicles, where NMC has been the staple given its higher energy density for the weight it carries. I believe Tesla are working with Panasonic to use LFP in their trucks (but insist that their standard cars will continue to ship with NMC). I considered NMC for stationery storage at my house, prior to going with LFP. But between being double the cost and somewhat thermally less stable, LFP was the way to go. LFP is a little heavier and is less energy-dense compared to NMC, but to be realistic, as Sean Connery asked Catherine Zeta Jones in the movie "Entrapment", as they planned the split of their heist: "What can you do with 7 billion that you can't do with 4?" Mark.
On 1/12/22 10:15 AM, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Thanks. Scott Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area.
Don't underestimate the disaster that is PG&E in California. We have a generator so don't really need battery backup for the router, but we're lucky since their DSLAM is battery backed up from the CO. Lots of cable users are not so lucky as they found out when PG&E started routinely having blackouts so they don't burn the state down. This shows why MSO should have the same mandate as telcos for battery backup to their headends. Mike
----- On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Andy Ringsmuth andy@andyring.com wrote: Hi,
On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote: services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
Same here. A small UPS that will keep my modem, router, and POE for APs alive for the time I need to run outside and hook up my generator when PG&E decides to cut the power again. A bigger UPS for the small 19" rack that hosts some stuff. Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not at home. Thanks, Sabri
" Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not at home." Keeping one's spouse happy is FAR more important than keeping a router or modem online. ;-) ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sabri Berisha" <sabri@cluecentral.net> To: "nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 3:01:27 PM Subject: Re: home router battery backup ----- On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Andy Ringsmuth andy@andyring.com wrote: Hi,
On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote: services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
Same here. A small UPS that will keep my modem, router, and POE for APs alive for the time I need to run outside and hook up my generator when PG&E decides to cut the power again. A bigger UPS for the small 19" rack that hosts some stuff. Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not at home. Thanks, Sabri
Many times those coincide. ;-) On 1/12/22 3:34 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
"Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not at home."
Keeping one's spouse happy is FAR more important than keeping a router or modem online. ;-)
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Sabri Berisha" <sabri@cluecentral.net> *To: *"nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 12, 2022 3:01:27 PM *Subject: *Re: home router battery backup
----- On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Andy Ringsmuth andy@andyring.com wrote:
Hi,
On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote: services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
Same here. A small UPS that will keep my modem, router, and POE for APs alive for the time I need to run outside and hook up my generator when PG&E decides to cut the power again. A bigger UPS for the small 19" rack that hosts some stuff.
Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not at home.
Thanks,
Sabri
-- Keith Stokes SalonBiz, Inc
On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote: services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet infrastructure.
Same here. A small UPS that will keep my modem, router, and POE for APs alive for the time I need to run outside and hook up my generator when PG&E decides to cut the power again. A bigger UPS for the small 19" rack that hosts some stuff.
Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not at home.
Thanks,
Sabri
Great idea on the garage opener. I got a new one a year ago with an integrated battery for exactly that purpose. And, although I didn’t realize it when I bought it, it also lets me tie it to Amazon so they can open the door, leave my packages inside, and close the door. No more porch pirates! -Andy
On 1/12/22 23:01, Sabri Berisha wrote:
Same here. A small UPS that will keep my modem, router, and POE for APs alive for the time I need to run outside and hook up my generator when PG&E decides to cut the power again. A bigger UPS for the small 19" rack that hosts some stuff.
Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not at home.
Here in South Africa, motorized garage doors come standard with a 12-volt battery. The problem is most home owners don't realize that they need to be replaced every 2 - 3 years :-). So there are many homes out there which have had dead batteries for more than 20 years, and folk just accept that the manual handle comes down when the power is out. That is, until you remind them to replace the battery. Mark.
Need to look at the entire infrastructure. Now, its less about backup for the hardwired router, and better utility backups and construction for mobile provider infrastructure. Almost all households have at least one mobile phone, with built-in battery backup :-) We used to have public pay telephones for people without phones in their homes, but not anymore. Landline telephone - 40% households (70% in 2010, and 96% in 2000) Smart speakers - 50% households (introduced in 2014) Cellular smartphone - 80% households (34% in 2010, introduced 2007) - yes, I know, the first smartphone was 1994, but the modern smartphone was introduced in 2007. Cellular phone (anytype) - 97% households (80% in 2010, 55% in 2000) - older and poorer people have 'dumb' cell phones - WEA doesn't reach everyone.
On 1/12/22 20:50, Sean Donelan wrote:
Need to look at the entire infrastructure. Now, its less about backup for the hardwired router, and better utility backups and construction for mobile provider infrastructure.
Over here, if there is an outage, most people lose their home Internet, and fall back to the nearest mobile tower. The problem is the mobile towers in residential areas are no longer being invested in, so they get congested either on the radio side, or the backhaul side, or both. I mean, you have a clear 4G or 5G signal, but can't pass diddly. Not even an SMS. On top of that, they have enough Li-Ion batteries for 4 - 8 hours, assuming they haven't been vandalized. Multiply that across tens of thousands of towers nation-wide, and it's a huge logistical problem. Mark.
When I subscribed to Windstream fiber at my house a couple years ago I didn’t order voice service but they installed a UPS anyway. Curiously, they also connected the wires meant for voice lines to their outdoor equipment mounted on the house. The guy told me he did that after he hooked it up which I was mildly annoyed about since I had planned to use that cable for other reasons. He was pushing voice service and said I was hooked up for voice should I want to do this in the future. I’m unsure if this is a standard Windstream install or what. To add to that, I have my own UPS installed on some of my indoor equipment.. router, one WiFi AP, Synology file server, x86 linux server. While we almost never lose power at my house, yesterday we lost power for 7 minutes. I maintained Internet connectivity throughout the brief outage. Ryan Wilkins
On Jan 12, 2022, at 12:35 PM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Thanks. Scott
Reference for 47 CFR Section 9.20: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-... <https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-H/section-9.20>
I'm one of the atypical users, when compared to the population at large, but probably in line for this audience. Critical gear is on a transfer switch and both inputs to that come from UPSs that are on separate circuits. Less critical gear is fed from one UPS or the other to balance the load and allow headroom for a load shift due to a UPS failure. My office gear is on a separate UPS on a different circuit. Thank you jms On Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 13:01 Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Thanks.
Scott
Reference for 47 CFR Section 9.20: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-...
On 1/12/22 09:35, Scott T Anderson via NANOG wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
From what I've seen on the market, home router or "residential gateway" devices with built-in battery backup typically only provide backup for FXS style analog POTS services, not for data, wireless, etc. So, if you both pay for your ISP's analog phone service and still own an analog phone, it will work for a while. Nothing else will. This assumes that your local cable company both has battery-backed trunk amplifiers and that they service the batteries regularly. Many don't. It's an FCC requirement to provide the ability to make emergency voice calls during a local power outage. This is an attempt to emulate the "good old days" when twisted-pair phone service with central office battery was the norm. Speaking for myself, my networking gear is UPS-backed and my house has a Generac auto-start generator and ATS. Most of our customers don't back up their home network gear. If they do it's most often an under-desk style UPS with 15-minute runtime that hasn't been serviced in a decade. Its battery is very much dead and so swollen that it can't be replaced without the use of some serious prying tools. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
On 1/12/22 9:35 PM, Jay Hennigan wrote:
From what I've seen on the market, home router or "residential gateway" devices with built-in battery backup typically only provide backup for FXS style analog POTS services, not for data, wireless, etc.
This was definitely the case for the Verizon FiOS I had about 14 years ago. They're the only carrier I've ever used that provided regulated ("POTS replacement", at least) voice service by means other than POTS and that automatically gave you a battery backup with their NID. AT&T and Comcast don't seem to provide battery by default if you buy voice service from them. Note that AT&T still offers POTS in my market even where they've overlaid FTTC-based VDSL (U-Verse/Lightspeed) or FTTH, which may be part of why. I assume they offer it as an option if you inquire per the rules OP mentioned, but they don't seem to mention it or do it by default even on their "business class" services.
Most of our customers don't back up their home network gear. If they do it's most often an under-desk style UPS with 15-minute runtime that hasn't been serviced in a decade. Its battery is very much dead and so swollen that it can't be replaced without the use of some serious prying tools.
This has been my experience as well. Even among customers with an automatic standby generator, having a UPS for their "IT" gear seems rare, and they're often uninterested. They just live with things dropping for a minute or two while everything reboots/reconnects if the power glitches. The networks I operate (some of which I own and some of which I operate on a contract-for-services basis) tend to only automatically provide batteries in MDU/MBU settings where one ONT or other NID serves multiple subscribers and is powered from house/common power. We do that because power to the ONT/NID is then out of the hands of the subscriber, and they wouldn't be able to put it on a battery if they wanted to as they often don't even have physical access to it. For SFU/SBU subscribers who inquire, we offer to provide and set up a typical "desktop" style UPS like you mention or of course try to plug the gear into one if they already have one. It doesn't take a big battery to keep a single-port ONT and Wi-Fi router up for several hours which is all most customers seem to hope for if they don't have a generator. Obviously we charge for the UPS, though even with a modest mark-up it ends up being comparable to retail pricing. We don't really charge to set it up (how much set up is there?), but we also don't attempt to monitor or maintain them; we treat it as a one-time purchase and just do it to try to keep customers happy. Based on seeing ONTs drop when I know there's a power outage in an area, I'd say maybe 10% of the customers I manage operations for have their ONT on a UPS tops. That's including the MDU/MBUs where we've provided it (which accounts for maybe half or more of that 10%). Note that none of the networks I operate offer voice service at all. There hasn't been enough of a demand for it to deal with the regulatory hassles. I'm mostly in residential and very small business, so they either just use their mobiles or usually have some setup they're happy with. I try to keep an ITSP with local service/support on-call to hand referrals in case someone asks, and usually I can get them to do me the same if they're working with one of their customers who are in the market for better IP connectivity. It works out well enough.
Once upon a time, Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> said:
AT&T and Comcast don't seem to provide battery by default if you buy voice service from them.
The only major power outage I've experienced at my house (I've been here over 20 years) was the May 2011 tornado outbreak, when TVA lost hundreds of distribution towers, and my local utility lost all feeds. At the time, I had AT&T POTS, Comcast cable/Internet, and T-Mobile cell. I have all my stuff on UPS, so I could see for a little while that Comcast dropped almost immediately; it looked like they had no (or dead) batteries in their distribution system. T-Mobile stayed up but got congested (because lots of people switched to cells for Internet), and AT&T POTS was up the whole time (they have batteries in all the remotes, with natural gas generators in a lot of them, and rolled generator trucks around to charge things up). I left town the next morning to somewhere with electricity, and came back several days later, before my power had been restored (it came back that night). IIRC Comcast was dead, AT&T was up, and T-Mobile was up but slow. I've got Google Fiber now, on local utility fiber, and I haven't experienced any outage when there's a power outage, but we also haven't had any extended outage. Since the fiber network is run by the utility, the huts are at substations, so it would take a substation outage to knock out power to the hut (and I think they may still also have generators at the huts). -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
On Jan 13, 2022, at 12:28 PM, Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net> wrote:
Once upon a time, Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> said:
AT&T and Comcast don't seem to provide battery by default if you buy voice service from them.
The only major power outage I've experienced at my house (I've been here over 20 years) was the May 2011 tornado outbreak, when TVA lost hundreds of distribution towers, and my local utility lost all feeds. At the time, I had AT&T POTS, Comcast cable/Internet, and T-Mobile cell.
You are lucky. In my areas we have many power outages and in my ~20 years in my current house, we have had several outages that went past 3 days in various weather (spring, summer, fall, winter) Not only were we impacted by the NE blackout, but just in the short time I’ve had a generator it’s run around 0.5% of the time due to grid outage, with the prior year we had 7 different outages. I also don’t believe the reporting is accurate from this source I’m doing a quick SWAG of, I think it’s been longer. It’s so bad I monitor the grid voltage and have it in influxdb+grafana dashboard (I recommend iotawatt if you want a neat device) - Jared
[...] note that if your ups has a usb port, you can attach a raspberry pi and run upsmon to be told (among other things) when the battery requires replacement rather than rely on hearing the beeps. good for the out-of-the-way closets with network gear.
Thanks for this! Definitely going to look into doing this! Thank you, -- Ryland From: Stephen Stuart<mailto:stuart@tech.org> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 11:58 AM To: Jared Mauch<mailto:jared@puck.nether.net> Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: home router battery backup [...] note that if your ups has a usb port, you can attach a raspberry pi and run upsmon to be told (among other things) when the battery requires replacement rather than rely on hearing the beeps. good for the out-of-the-way closets with network gear.
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:02 AM Ryland Kremeier <rkremeier@barryelectric.com> wrote:
Thanks for this! Definitely going to look into doing this!
I typically run the ups monitor off a suitable openwrt box (most have at least one usb port) no need for a separate pi. I tend also to hang a good gps off a second usb port, if available. There's a topic for geeks - does anyone else really know (or care) what time it really is?
Thank you,
-- Ryland
From: Stephen Stuart Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 11:58 AM To: Jared Mauch Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: home router battery backup
[...]
note that if your ups has a usb port, you can attach a raspberry pi and run upsmon to be told (among other things) when the battery requires replacement rather than rely on hearing the beeps. good for the out-of-the-way closets with network gear.
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
My current solution is having the UPS plugged into my bare metal fileserver. But I’m wanting to get rid of it at some point so any other solution will be superior to none. I appreciate the added info! That being said my current router solution is a Ubiquity ER4. I don’t currently run openWRT on anything because my older server hardware wasn’t able to keep up with full 1gb up and down speeds with openwrt or any other flavor of self hosted routing. Not sure I could still apply your solution to an ER4. Thank you, -- Ryland From: Dave Taht<mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 12:07 PM To: Ryland Kremeier<mailto:rkremeier@barryelectric.com> Cc: Stephen Stuart<mailto:stuart@tech.org>; Jared Mauch<mailto:jared@puck.nether.net>; nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: home router battery backup On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:02 AM Ryland Kremeier <rkremeier@barryelectric.com> wrote:
Thanks for this! Definitely going to look into doing this!
I typically run the ups monitor off a suitable openwrt box (most have at least one usb port) no need for a separate pi. I tend also to hang a good gps off a second usb port, if available. There's a topic for geeks - does anyone else really know (or care) what time it really is?
Thank you,
-- Ryland
From: Stephen Stuart Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 11:58 AM To: Jared Mauch Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: home router battery backup
[...]
note that if your ups has a usb port, you can attach a raspberry pi and run upsmon to be told (among other things) when the battery requires replacement rather than rely on hearing the beeps. good for the out-of-the-way closets with network gear.
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
Once upon a time, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> said:
I tend also to hang a good gps off a second usb port, if available. There's a topic for geeks - does anyone else really know (or care) what time it really is?
25 (or 6) to 4? Running GPS over USB for timing makes me twitch though - too much jitter! :) Use a proper serial or GPIO port, with that you can get down to sub-microsecond accuracy. -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:00 AM Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net> wrote:
Once upon a time, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> said:
I tend also to hang a good gps off a second usb port, if available. There's a topic for geeks - does anyone else really know (or care) what time it really is?
25 (or 6) to 4?
Running GPS over USB for timing makes me twitch though - too much jitter! :) Use a proper serial or GPIO port, with that you can get down to sub-microsecond accuracy.
No, no, I actually went through the time/hassle and expense to create a usb gps with a PPS output, and then wanted to put a supercap on it because batteries didn't last long enough. https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/thumbgps-devel/2012-May/000497.html They were sold wholesale for a while. I don't know if any modern usb gps has a pps output... I still have enough of these left to last a lifetime.
-- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 9:56 AM Stephen Stuart <stuart@tech.org> wrote:
[...]
note that if your ups has a usb port, you can attach a raspberry pi and run upsmon to be told (among other things) when the battery requires replacement rather than rely on hearing the beeps. good for the out-of-the-way closets with network gear.
Also, I *hate* the beeps. It's dark out, I know the powers off, darn it, no need to beep. That's why I buy 'smart' upses because you can tell them not beep. -- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
Once upon a time, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> said:
Also, I *hate* the beeps. It's dark out, I know the powers off, darn it, no need to beep. That's why I buy 'smart' upses because you can tell them not beep.
You can tell ANY UPS to not beep... sometimes it just requires more force (and wire cutters). -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:03 AM Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services,
It's worse than that. The FiOS ONT I had would draw on the battery to preserve the voice ports I didn't even have an active line on, but it wouldn't power the ethernet port! Which was crazy because my landline was voip and the whole point of the requirement was that I be able to dial 911. Which I couldn't do because they cut my Internet port the voip service needs. It's silly anyway. If you want battery backup for the ONT, if that's important to you, just buy a cheap commodity UPS. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
Has this xkcd gone by yet? https://xkcd.com/705/ I would actually like a study of how network "glitches" and outages affect more normal humanity. I did - and it took years to relax this much - finally get to the point to when the power went out, I'd take a walk, find a book, or do something other than stress about the thing I was doing that was interrupted when the lights went out. I tend to think that with internet addiction on the rise for the general public that they are becoming more like us in this respect, and that's not a good thing. On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:03 AM Scott T Anderson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
Thanks.
Scott
Reference for 47 CFR Section 9.20: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-...
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
on Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 05:35:19PM +0000, Scott T Anderson via NANOG wrote:
Hi NANOG mailing list,
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users.
Not a netadmin, but longtime sysadmin, and have been working from home for over a decade. We have Spectrum cable (still waiting on Google to run fiber to this block) and a smallish home network, three Apple Airport Extremes to help get around the c. 1870 era plaster walls in our house, and a UPS for the modem, switch, NAS, and voice (currently Phonebooth), as well as another for my work laptop and monitors, the Mini we use for remote backups of our colocated servers, and a line conditioner for the TV, TiVo and its external disk as well as the Cisco TA. We've been here twenty years and have only had one multi-day power outage, due to an ice storm, and despite the five fireplaces we hadn't had any of them lined so it got very cold (we've since lined one and installed a wood burning insert). Despite it all, we've never bothered with a generator; it may be in the cards when we do a planned renovation though, we're just north of downtown Raleigh in a historic neighborhood so the grid is pretty stable for the most part save cars hitting poles or transformers blowing due to wind or ice damage. Not as good as our old apartment over by NCSU, we lived there seven years and I don't remember ever losing power. We powered the computers down and unplugged them once during a severe thunderstorm, just to be safe, but that was a precaution more than a necessity. A few years ago we learned that the lights in your house can dim temporarily but that they should never get *brighter*, thanks to a recently installed but faulty smart meter. They estimated that one input was serving ~180. We lost a big box full's worth of various powerstrips and one Netgear 8-port GE switch, but fortunately didn't lose any of the laptops or the Dell server we had at the time. The firemen who came to investigate laughed at us and told us in a house this old you had to expect electrical issues; when we called Duke Energy the guy replaced the meter and used his hands to mime typing and said "google 'neutral burned through'" and ask for reimbursement for damaged items, so it didn't cost us anything but it was still pretty scary. So, yet another atypical user, but yes, UPSes and line conditioners are standard in this house. -- hesketh.com/inc. v: +1(919)834-2552 f: +1(919)834-2553 w: http://hesketh.com/ Internet security and antispam hostname intelligence: http://enemieslist.com/
participants (31)
-
Aaron C. de Bruyn -
Ahmed elBornou -
Andy Ringsmuth -
Brandon Martin -
Chris Adams -
Dave Taht -
Fred Baker -
Grant Taylor -
Jared Mauch -
Jay -
Jay Hennigan -
Jeff Shultz -
Joe Maimon -
John Lightfoot -
Jordan -
Jordan Hazen
-
Justin Streiner -
Keith Stokes -
Mark Tinka -
Michael Thomas -
Mike Hammett -
richey goldberg -
Ryan Wilkins -
Ryland Kremeier -
Sabri Berisha -
Scott T Anderson -
Sean Donelan -
Stephen Stuart -
Steven Champeon -
Tony Wicks -
William Herrin