Re: Inevitable death, was Re: Verizon Public Policy on Netflix
At 06:49 AM 7/15/2014, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
Ah but they are charging you for it. You are paying approximately 40x as much for your bandwidth as you should be (you said you paid 20 USD/Mbps - an outrageous rate). You have a link to a place where you can buy 1 Gbps flatrate for USD 500 per month, so why aren't you?
Because I'd be charged at least as much per Mbps for raw transport as I am paying now. (I look at pricing every quarter to see if I can do better. Because I'm rural it has not happened.) --Brett Glass
On 15 July 2014 17:03, Brett Glass <nanog@brettglass.com> wrote:
At 06:49 AM 7/15/2014, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
Ah but they are charging you for it. You are paying approximately 40x as much for your bandwidth as you should be (you said you paid 20 USD/Mbps - an outrageous rate). You have a link to a place where you can buy 1 Gbps flatrate for USD 500 per month, so why aren't you?
Because I'd be charged at least as much per Mbps for raw transport as I am paying now. (I look at pricing every quarter to see if I can do better. Because I'm rural it has not happened.)
If that is the case, how would peering with Netflix help you any? You would still pay for transport to your site. Or do you expect Netflix to also pay that? Together with Google for YouTube, Hulu for their share etc? It just does not work that way. I took a look at your plans at http://www.lariat.net/rates.html. You use the Netflix brand in your advertising (in the flyer) but none of your plans are actually fast enough to provide Netflix service (up to 6 Mbps per stream for Super HD). I think you need to rethink a few things if you want to stay in business. I am sitting here on a 70 Mbps ADSL, Cable is often 100+ Mbps and my own ISP is selling 1000 Mbps service. Selling 1 Mbps is just not going to do it going forward, not even in rural areas. I can say how we solve the backhaul problem. We only lease dark fiber and then put our own 10 Gbps equipment on it. We can upgrade that any day to 40G, 100G or whatever we need, without any additional rent for the fiber. Given your expertise seems to be wireless links, you could also backhaul using Ubiquiti Airfiber: http://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/ Regards, Baldur
On Jul 15, 2014, at 8:03 AM, Brett Glass <nanog@brettglass.com> wrote:
At 06:49 AM 7/15/2014, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
Ah but they are charging you for it. You are paying approximately 40x as much for your bandwidth as you should be (you said you paid 20 USD/Mbps - an outrageous rate). You have a link to a place where you can buy 1 Gbps flatrate for USD 500 per month, so why aren't you?
Because I'd be charged at least as much per Mbps for raw transport as I am paying now. (I look at pricing every quarter to see if I can do better. Because I'm rural it has not happened.)
--Brett Glass
Layer3 runs right through Laramie. With a redundant run slightly south. What conversations have you had with them?... George William Herbert Sent from my iPhone
At 05:10 PM 7/15/2014, George Herbert wrote:
Layer3 runs right through Laramie. With a redundant run slightly south. What conversations have you had with them?...
At first, Level3 completely refused us. Then, they quoted us a rate several times higher than either of our existing upstreams for bandwidth. Even at that price, they refused to let us link to them via wireless (requiring us to either buy easements or buy land adjacent to their building, which sits on rented land). --Brett Glass
On Jul 15, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Brett Glass <nanog@brettglass.com> wrote:
At 05:10 PM 7/15/2014, George Herbert wrote:
Layer3 runs right through Laramie. With a redundant run slightly south. What conversations have you had with them?...
At first, Level3 completely refused us. Then, they quoted us a rate several times higher than either of our existing upstreams for bandwidth. Even at that price, they refused to let us link to them via wireless (requiring us to either buy easements or buy land adjacent to their building, which sits on rented land).
--Brett Glass
Local fiber provider? How does everyone else tie in to Layer3 in Laramie? And, find a Layer3 reseller who can handle the cost problem. There are a bunch. I can recommend one privately if you can't find one. Buying retail markups from the vendor who wants to sell wholesale only does not scale. George William Herbert Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 15, 2014, at 9:48 PM, George Herbert <george.herbert@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 15, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Brett Glass <nanog@brettglass.com> wrote:
At 05:10 PM 7/15/2014, George Herbert wrote:
Layer3 runs right through Laramie. With a redundant run slightly south. What conversations have you had with them?...
At first, Level3 completely refused us. Then, they quoted us a rate several times higher than either of our existing upstreams for bandwidth. Even at that price, they refused to let us link to them via wireless (requiring us to either buy easements or buy land adjacent to their building, which sits on rented land).
Local fiber provider? How does everyone else tie in to Layer3 in Laramie?
And, find a Layer3 reseller who can handle the cost problem. There are a bunch. I can recommend one privately if you can't find one.
Buying retail markups from the vendor who wants to sell wholesale only does not scale.
The problem is partly a technological one. If you have a fiber span from east<-> west it doesn't make sense to OEO when you can just plop in a bidi amplifier. That OEO cost isn't "very high", but hitting every city like that becomes expensive quickly. This is why your 10G from EQUINIX-SJ to EQUNIX-ASH costs the same as the 10G loop from the DC to your local office. The cost is the OEO ends. If you're not in a fiber rich environment you are screwed. I have at&t fiber less than 1200 feet from me but they do not offer any non-dialtone services in my area. I'm all-poles to the end of the new comcast segment as well but due to a mid-part that doesn't have the density required to meet their metrics there continue to be only fixed wireless choices here. Others have suggested the UBNT gear. I'm using it myself, but I'll say.. it still leaves a lot to be desired. It's mostly meant for use in less developed countries. Their latest 5Ghz access gear often takes 6-12 months to get FCC certified to operate in the full 5ghz band. With the recent opening all the way down to 5.1 this spring with the FCC that certification process restarted. They are great for hopping short distances at high speeds in the US, but are very susceptible to interference. (The NanoBeam, now PowerBeam is a bit better). my backhaul is 3 miles and works well for my use case. Cheaper than the T1 before and higher speeds. There's a lot of people in wispa around the edges you can find doing things, and many others doing it that aren't in wispa. Most are small businesses (Some are larger) and suffer from poor business choices, but the biggest problem I see is lack of ability to get high speed access as Brett is commenting. Prices may be low at the major DCs but out in these areas expect $10/Mb or more, sometimes not including loop. - Jared
Hi Jared, I know you will see the irony in my next statement.. Brett: you should talk to level 3 again, they are looking to connect to anyone to help with Netflix connectivity. http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/verizons-accidental-mea-culpa/ The above URL is a great place to start. On Jul 17, 2014 5:21 AM, "Jared Mauch" <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jul 15, 2014, at 9:48 PM, George Herbert <george.herbert@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 15, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Brett Glass <nanog@brettglass.com> wrote:
At 05:10 PM 7/15/2014, George Herbert wrote:
Layer3 runs right through Laramie. With a redundant run slightly south. What conversations have you had with them?...
At first, Level3 completely refused us. Then, they quoted us a rate several times higher than either of our existing upstreams for bandwidth. Even at that price, they refused to let us link to them via wireless (requiring us to either buy easements or buy land adjacent to their building, which sits on rented land).
Local fiber provider? How does everyone else tie in to Layer3 in Laramie?
And, find a Layer3 reseller who can handle the cost problem. There are a bunch. I can recommend one privately if you can't find one.
Buying retail markups from the vendor who wants to sell wholesale only does not scale.
The problem is partly a technological one. If you have a fiber span from east<-> west it doesn't make sense to OEO when you can just plop in a bidi amplifier. That OEO cost isn't "very high", but hitting every city like that becomes expensive quickly. This is why your 10G from EQUINIX-SJ to EQUNIX-ASH costs the same as the 10G loop from the DC to your local office. The cost is the OEO ends. If you're not in a fiber rich environment you are screwed. I have at&t fiber less than 1200 feet from me but they do not offer any non-dialtone services in my area. I'm all-poles to the end of the new comcast segment as well but due to a mid-part that doesn't have the density required to meet their metrics there continue to be only fixed wireless choices here.
Others have suggested the UBNT gear. I'm using it myself, but I'll say.. it still leaves a lot to be desired. It's mostly meant for use in less developed countries. Their latest 5Ghz access gear often takes 6-12 months to get FCC certified to operate in the full 5ghz band. With the recent opening all the way down to 5.1 this spring with the FCC that certification process restarted. They are great for hopping short distances at high speeds in the US, but are very susceptible to interference. (The NanoBeam, now PowerBeam is a bit better).
my backhaul is 3 miles and works well for my use case. Cheaper than the T1 before and higher speeds. There's a lot of people in wispa around the edges you can find doing things, and many others doing it that aren't in wispa. Most are small businesses (Some are larger) and suffer from poor business choices, but the biggest problem I see is lack of ability to get high speed access as Brett is commenting. Prices may be low at the major DCs but out in these areas expect $10/Mb or more, sometimes not including loop.
- Jared
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Noble" <snoble@sonn.com>
I know you will see the irony in my next statement..
Brett: you should talk to level 3 again, they are looking to connect to anyone to help with Netflix connectivity.
http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/verizons-accidental-mea-culpa/
It was suggested to me tonight by a cow-orker that we ought to start a Kickstarter to buy Verizon a 10G card for their peering router with L3. I think that's a marvelous idea, though it did take a few minutes to land. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On Jul 17, 2014, at 5:19 AM, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
The problem is partly a technological one. If you have a fiber span from east<-> west it doesn't make sense to OEO when you can just plop in a bidi amplifier.
Almost certainly, most of the fiber going through the building just hits an amplifier (or nothing and isn't broken out there). Yes. But they quoted a price for access, and some research turned up signs other people are doing big fiber out of that location, so my assumption at this point is that at least one pair each direction down the fiber is terminating in some router there. Possibly a fiber level wave device but seems more likely a router. Unless that assumption is not true, this comes down to "We don't want your antenna on our roof*, come in via fiber like everyone else" and not having met the right Layer 3 reseller yet. It's not sounding at all like "we have to break open a fiber for you and put in a router". (The rest of this indirectly aimed back at Brett, not Jared ) It's not 1995. Even little ISPs need to get aware and step their game up. Treating transit or uplink like a 1995 problem IS a short road to damnation now. Seriously. The net is changing. The customers are changing, the customers uses and expectations are changing. Change with it, or step out of the way. You are not an exception because you're rural. You've just got a density and size lag. That is temporary at best. Keep up. This is critical national telecommunications infrastructure. Modern teens have mostly never used landline phones and are not OK with inadequate bandwidth at home or on the road. Being in Laramie is not a shield against change. * probably expands to "...you aren't big enough for me to bother working with my facility staff and filling out the paperwork to get an exception or lease amendment or permit and let you put an antenna on our roof, sorry", but this is an educated guess not informed. George William Herbert Sent from my iPhone
It's not as if Brett is doing the public a service. There is Charter Cable and CenturyLink DSL available in Laramie. He's just a wireless provider with some crappy infrastructure that's bitter that he can't "borrow" bandwidth from the University of Wyoming anymore, resulting in a loss of his 100% margin on the service. You're not a charity that's providing internet access to the poor ignored rural folks like you claim, you're a competitive overbuilder. You give the little boys who are deploying service where the big guys won't a bad name. Drive slow, Paul On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 4:20 AM, George Herbert <george.herbert@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 17, 2014, at 5:19 AM, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
The problem is partly a technological one. If you have a fiber span from east<-> west it doesn't make sense to OEO when you can just plop in a bidi amplifier.
Almost certainly, most of the fiber going through the building just hits an amplifier (or nothing and isn't broken out there). Yes.
But they quoted a price for access, and some research turned up signs other people are doing big fiber out of that location, so my assumption at this point is that at least one pair each direction down the fiber is terminating in some router there. Possibly a fiber level wave device but seems more likely a router.
Unless that assumption is not true, this comes down to "We don't want your antenna on our roof*, come in via fiber like everyone else" and not having met the right Layer 3 reseller yet. It's not sounding at all like "we have to break open a fiber for you and put in a router".
(The rest of this indirectly aimed back at Brett, not Jared )
It's not 1995. Even little ISPs need to get aware and step their game up. Treating transit or uplink like a 1995 problem IS a short road to damnation now.
Seriously. The net is changing. The customers are changing, the customers uses and expectations are changing. Change with it, or step out of the way. You are not an exception because you're rural. You've just got a density and size lag. That is temporary at best. Keep up. This is critical national telecommunications infrastructure. Modern teens have mostly never used landline phones and are not OK with inadequate bandwidth at home or on the road.
Being in Laramie is not a shield against change.
* probably expands to "...you aren't big enough for me to bother working with my facility staff and filling out the paperwork to get an exception or lease amendment or permit and let you put an antenna on our roof, sorry", but this is an educated guess not informed.
George William Herbert Sent from my iPhone
participants (7)
-
Baldur Norddahl -
Brett Glass -
George Herbert -
Jared Mauch -
Jay Ashworth -
Paul WALL -
Steve Noble