eBay is looking for network heavies...
Hello All, eBay is looking for folks to join our Site Network Engineering team. eBay Site Network Engineering is responsible for the eBay SITE network from ToR to Peering Edge. You won't be bored. You will be challenged. You will have fun! This position is located in San Jose, California @ eBay HQ although exception may be made for extremely well qualified candidates. *Qualifications:* - 7+ years of experience in network design and implementation - 7+ years working at the highest level of technical escalation - Expert level multi-vendor experience in routing & switching with Arista, Cisco, Juniper, Nexus platforms - Expert level understanding of IPv4 & IPv6. Bonus points if you can tell me about IPv8. (The old guard will get that joke.) - Expert level BGP and OSPF - Understanding of multicast technologies such as PIM-SM and PIM-BiDir - Understanding of QoS and implementation strategies - Experience with L2 technologies such as MLAG and VPC - Experience with cloud architectures and network automation - Experience with SDN technologies such as VXLAN, NVGRE and Open vSwitch - Expert level troubleshooting skills - Functional knowledge of and comfort working in *nix environments - Ability to script in Bash, Perl, or other relevant languages. (Bonus for Python) - Excellent communications and documentation skills Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time! BSCS or other 4-year degree desired - may be substituted with relevant work experience Translation of the above: Are you considered an expert by your industry peers? We know your family thinks you're a genius. Do your peers in the networking community agree? Do you want work on the bleeding edge of technology, playing with the biggest, baddest and bestest toys? Are you a team player who can also work alone providing creative solutions to complex problems using your "out of the box" thinking? Are you tired of being the "smartest guy in the room" when you're at work? Well then, I've got the job you're looking for! The above qualifications are the "wish list". That should give you a feel of whether or not you're qualified for this position though. You know your own skill set better than anyone else. Just be advised: Please don't be a "buzzword bandit" on your CV. If you list a skill or experience, its fair game to ask you about these - in depth - during your phone screen and any subsequent in-person interviews. Interested and Qualified candidates, please forward your CVs to jfraizer at ebay dot com. eBay, Inc is an Equal Opportunity Employer -- John Fraizer MTS2 - eBay Site Network Engineering
Please use below mailing list for job posting http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs Mehmet
On Jun 5, 2015, at 19:13, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Hello All,
eBay is looking for folks to join our Site Network Engineering team. eBay Site Network Engineering is responsible for the eBay SITE network from ToR to Peering Edge. You won't be bored. You will be challenged. You will have fun! This position is located in San Jose, California @ eBay HQ although exception may be made for extremely well qualified candidates.
*Qualifications:*
- 7+ years of experience in network design and implementation - 7+ years working at the highest level of technical escalation - Expert level multi-vendor experience in routing & switching with Arista, Cisco, Juniper, Nexus platforms - Expert level understanding of IPv4 & IPv6. Bonus points if you can tell me about IPv8. (The old guard will get that joke.) - Expert level BGP and OSPF - Understanding of multicast technologies such as PIM-SM and PIM-BiDir - Understanding of QoS and implementation strategies - Experience with L2 technologies such as MLAG and VPC - Experience with cloud architectures and network automation - Experience with SDN technologies such as VXLAN, NVGRE and Open vSwitch - Expert level troubleshooting skills - Functional knowledge of and comfort working in *nix environments - Ability to script in Bash, Perl, or other relevant languages. (Bonus for Python) - Excellent communications and documentation skills
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time! BSCS or other 4-year degree desired - may be substituted with relevant work experience
Translation of the above: Are you considered an expert by your industry peers? We know your family thinks you're a genius. Do your peers in the networking community agree? Do you want work on the bleeding edge of technology, playing with the biggest, baddest and bestest toys? Are you a team player who can also work alone providing creative solutions to complex problems using your "out of the box" thinking? Are you tired of being the "smartest guy in the room" when you're at work? Well then, I've got the job you're looking for! The above qualifications are the "wish list". That should give you a feel of whether or not you're qualified for this position though. You know your own skill set better than anyone else.
Just be advised: Please don't be a "buzzword bandit" on your CV. If you list a skill or experience, its fair game to ask you about these - in depth - during your phone screen and any subsequent in-person interviews.
Interested and Qualified candidates, please forward your CVs to jfraizer at ebay dot com.
eBay, Inc is an Equal Opportunity Employer
-- John Fraizer MTS2 - eBay Site Network Engineering
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world). - Jared
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize. True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. — CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
Folks, It's just a piece of paper in my opinion. A person either knows their stuff or they don't. Less than 5min on a phone screen and I will know if they "bought" their certification(s) or earned them. Sadly, I've spoken to far too many who give some validation to Jared's comment. I'm wondering how many proctors have been paid off or if people are buying fake id's for smart people and paying them to sit for the tests posing as them. John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 5, 2015 5:45 PM, "Łukasz Bromirski" <lukasz@bromirski.net> wrote:
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
$employers don't help in this regard either by requiring said certs. Such requirements; IMO, lead to folks preparing/passing such tests just for $day_job only without any real desire to understand how things-actually-work&why. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> To: Łukasz Bromirski <lukasz@bromirski.net> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 5:55 PM Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... Folks, It's just a piece of paper in my opinion. A person either knows their stuff or they don't. Less than 5min on a phone screen and I will know if they "bought" their certification(s) or earned them. Sadly, I've spoken to far too many who give some validation to Jared's comment. I'm wondering how many proctors have been paid off or if people are buying fake id's for smart people and paying them to sit for the tests posing as them. John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 5, 2015 5:45 PM, "Łukasz Bromirski" <lukasz@bromirski.net> wrote:
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
Just to be clear, CERTS are NOT a requirement for these positions. They will head-of-line someone for a phone screen. THAT IS ALL! And if you've got a cert, you had better know your stuff because if your cert says you're an EXPERT. I'm gonna expect you to be one! John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 6, 2015 5:50 PM, "Randy" <randy_94108@yahoo.com> wrote:
$employers don't help in this regard either by requiring said certs. Such requirements; IMO, lead to folks preparing/passing such tests just for $day_job only without any real desire to understand how things-actually-work&why.
----- Original Message ----- From: John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> To: Łukasz Bromirski <lukasz@bromirski.net> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 5:55 PM Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Folks,
It's just a piece of paper in my opinion. A person either knows their stuff or they don't. Less than 5min on a phone screen and I will know if they "bought" their certification(s) or earned them. Sadly, I've spoken to far too many who give some validation to Jared's comment. I'm wondering how many proctors have been paid off or if people are buying fake id's for smart people and paying them to sit for the tests posing as them.
John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 5, 2015 5:45 PM, "Łukasz Bromirski" <lukasz@bromirski.net> wrote:
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is
that
the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
On 06/06/2015 07:17 PM, John Fraizer wrote:
And if you've got a cert, you had better know your stuff because if your cert says you're an EXPERT. I'm gonna expect you to be one!
X -- math quantity denoting the unknown SPURT -- drip of water under pressure X-SPURT -- unknown drip under pressure
i’ll never make it past the telephone screen…. manning bmanning@karoshi.com PO Box 12317 Marina del Rey, CA 90295 310.322.8102 On 6June2015Saturday, at 19:17, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Just to be clear, CERTS are NOT a requirement for these positions. They will head-of-line someone for a phone screen. THAT IS ALL! And if you've got a cert, you had better know your stuff because if your cert says you're an EXPERT. I'm gonna expect you to be one!
John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 6, 2015 5:50 PM, "Randy" <randy_94108@yahoo.com> wrote:
$employers don't help in this regard either by requiring said certs. Such requirements; IMO, lead to folks preparing/passing such tests just for $day_job only without any real desire to understand how things-actually-work&why.
----- Original Message ----- From: John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> To: Łukasz Bromirski <lukasz@bromirski.net> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 5:55 PM Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Folks,
It's just a piece of paper in my opinion. A person either knows their stuff or they don't. Less than 5min on a phone screen and I will know if they "bought" their certification(s) or earned them. Sadly, I've spoken to far too many who give some validation to Jared's comment. I'm wondering how many proctors have been paid off or if people are buying fake id's for smart people and paying them to sit for the tests posing as them.
John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 5, 2015 5:45 PM, "Łukasz Bromirski" <lukasz@bromirski.net> wrote:
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is
that
the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
Bill, Stop now! You just made me spew beer in all directions out my nose! I have no doubt that there is a home for you @ eBay if you ever desire it. John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 6, 2015 8:57 PM, "manning" <bmanning@karoshi.com> wrote:
i’ll never make it past the telephone screen….
manning bmanning@karoshi.com PO Box 12317 Marina del Rey, CA 90295 310.322.8102
On 6June2015Saturday, at 19:17, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Just to be clear, CERTS are NOT a requirement for these positions. They will head-of-line someone for a phone screen. THAT IS ALL! And if you've got a cert, you had better know your stuff because if your cert says you're an EXPERT. I'm gonna expect you to be one!
John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 6, 2015 5:50 PM, "Randy" <randy_94108@yahoo.com> wrote:
$employers don't help in this regard either by requiring said certs. Such requirements; IMO, lead to folks preparing/passing such tests just for $day_job only without any real desire to understand how things-actually-work&why.
----- Original Message ----- From: John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> To: Łukasz Bromirski <lukasz@bromirski.net> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 5:55 PM Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Folks,
It's just a piece of paper in my opinion. A person either knows their stuff or they don't. Less than 5min on a phone screen and I will know if they "bought" their certification(s) or earned them. Sadly, I've spoken to far too many who give some validation to Jared's comment. I'm wondering how many proctors have been paid off or if people are buying fake id's for smart people and paying them to sit for the tests posing as them.
John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 5, 2015 5:45 PM, "Łukasz Bromirski" <lukasz@bromirski.net> wrote:
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is
that
the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote:
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
't We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed. It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics. My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a footnote somewhere, that's ok. Christopher
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
-- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, <nanog@cdl.asgaard.org> wrote:
On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote:
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
't
We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed.
It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics.
My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a footnote somewhere, that's ok.
Christopher
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
-- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe
Based on the number of "certified" people I've interviewed over the last 20yr, my default view lines up with Jared's 100% On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Mike Hale <eyeronic.design@gmail.com> wrote:
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, <nanog@cdl.asgaard.org> wrote:
On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote: that
the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
't
We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed.
It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics.
My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a footnote somewhere, that's ok.
Christopher
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
-- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe
I also concur. There is most certainly a negative correlation between certs and clue in my experience, having met 10s of certificate holders. Long ago when the MCSE was more popular, I actually started putting "MCSE need not apply" on job postings because everyone I interviewed that had one was not just clue challenged, but had negative clue. On Fri, 5 Jun 2015, jim deleskie wrote:
Based on the number of "certified" people I've interviewed over the last 20yr, my default view lines up with Jared's 100%
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Mike Hale <eyeronic.design@gmail.com> wrote:
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, <nanog@cdl.asgaard.org> wrote:
On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote: that
the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
't
We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed.
It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics.
My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a footnote somewhere, that's ok.
Christopher
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
-- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe
-- Brandon Ross Yahoo & AIM: BrandonNRoss +1-404-635-6667 ICQ: 2269442 Skype: brandonross Schedule a meeting: http://www.doodle.com/bross
Sort of back-tracking on the OP JD - is one to derive from the posting and requirements for the job(s) that: 1. the need arises because of the eBay - PayPal split? 2. is PayPal leaving with the openstack [need for] expertise and associated IaaS parts (http://www.openstack.org/user-stories/paypal/), while eBay is keeping a more traditional infra setup? Stefan On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Brandon Ross <bross@pobox.com> wrote:
I also concur. There is most certainly a negative correlation between certs and clue in my experience, having met 10s of certificate holders.
Long ago when the MCSE was more popular, I actually started putting "MCSE need not apply" on job postings because everyone I interviewed that had one was not just clue challenged, but had negative clue.
On Fri, 5 Jun 2015, jim deleskie wrote:
Based on the number of "certified" people I've interviewed over the last
20yr, my default view lines up with Jared's 100%
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Mike Hale <eyeronic.design@gmail.com> wrote:
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute.
On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, <nanog@cdl.asgaard.org> wrote:
On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote:
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
> > Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a > piece > of paper every time! > > Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is
that
the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual
troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
't
We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly
failed.
It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was
the
number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics.
My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's
a
footnote somewhere, that's ok.
Christopher
—
CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
-- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe
-- Brandon Ross Yahoo & AIM: BrandonNRoss +1-404-635-6667 ICQ: 2269442 Skype: brandonross Schedule a meeting: http://www.doodle.com/bross
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:53 AM, Brandon Ross <bross@pobox.com> wrote:
I also concur. There is most certainly a negative correlation between certs and clue in my experience, having met 10s of certificate holders.
Oh good. Maybe my total lack of ever pursuing one of these things is actually a qualification of sorts? I keep searching things like dice and monster out of perverse bemusement, trying to find anyone actually looking for my actual skillset. -- Dave Täht What will it take to vastly improve wifi for everyone? https://plus.google.com/u/0/explore/makewififast
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:53 AM, Brandon Ross <bross@pobox.com> wrote:
I also concur. There is most certainly a negative correlation between certs and clue in my experience, having met 10s of certificate holders.
Oh good. Maybe my total lack of ever pursuing one of these things is actually a qualification of sorts?
Meh, certs can be fun. I've never taken one and not learned something. I don't think someone should put me in charge of designing a SOC because I have a Security+ or that BestBuy should trust people with (or w/o) and A+ to fix computers. But I'll bet the journey people took to get that cert taught them something. Having gained the cert, does that mean it doesn't belong on a resume? No. If you hire someone with just a cert to manage your network, does that put you among the biggest dumbasses to ever hire someone? Absolutely. Further, HR who look for certs are probably doing themselves a disservice but if it works for them, who am I to tell them otherwise. If you want to work for the company, get the cert or don't.
I asked one of my guys to tracert in windows for something and he executed pathping. I have never seen that in 25 years.... Go figure! James Laszko Mythos Technology Inc jamesl@mythostech.com Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 5, 2015, at 18:40, Mike Hale <eyeronic.design@gmail.com> wrote:
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute.
On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, <nanog@cdl.asgaard.org> wrote:
On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote:
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
't
We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed.
It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics.
My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a footnote somewhere, that's ok.
Christopher
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
-- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe
'pathping' ..... learned something new today... Did not know such a command existed in windows.. Been working with computers for over 30 years, while I don't care as to what it says about how much I know, but it sure reminds me that that their is always something more that one can learn ! Thank You. :) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: Support@Snappytelecom.net ----- Original Message -----
From: "James Laszko" <jamesl@mythostech.com> To: "Mike Hale" <eyeronic.design@gmail.com> Cc: "NANOG Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 9:57:38 PM Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
I asked one of my guys to tracert in windows for something and he executed pathping. I have never seen that in 25 years.... Go figure!
James Laszko Mythos Technology Inc jamesl@mythostech.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 5, 2015, at 18:40, Mike Hale <eyeronic.design@gmail.com> wrote:
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute.
On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, <nanog@cdl.asgaard.org> wrote:
On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote:
On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time!
Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world).
Jared, don’t generalize.
True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting.
't
We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed.
It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics.
My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a footnote somewhere, that's ok.
Christopher
— CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
-- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe
Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more about the candidate than most of the technical questions. -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
I remember you asking me who Jon was :) I have since added to my list of interview questions... sad but the number of people with clue is declining not increasing. On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Joe Hamelin <joe@nethead.com> wrote:
Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more about the candidate than most of the technical questions.
-- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
My first thought on reading that was "who the hell cares if a person knows about internet culture". But than I had to reconsider - it's a very apt way of telling if someone read the right books :) I would also add Ritchie, Thompson, and Diffie to that list (since you ask about Larry, it's only appropriate). On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:32 AM, jim deleskie <deleskie@gmail.com> wrote:
I remember you asking me who Jon was :) I have since added to my list of interview questions... sad but the number of people with clue is declining not increasing.
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Joe Hamelin <joe@nethead.com> wrote:
Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more about the candidate than most of the technical questions.
-- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” -Santayana Quite relevant in our industry that seems be more hell bent on rehashing ideas and plot lines than Hollywood. -dorian
On Jun 6, 2015, at 6:43 AM, shawn wilson <ag4ve.us@gmail.com> wrote:
My first thought on reading that was "who the hell cares if a person knows about internet culture". But than I had to reconsider - it's a very apt way of telling if someone read the right books :)
I would also add Ritchie, Thompson, and Diffie to that list (since you ask about Larry, it's only appropriate).
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:32 AM, jim deleskie <deleskie@gmail.com> wrote:
I remember you asking me who Jon was :) I have since added to my list of interview questions... sad but the number of people with clue is declining not increasing.
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Joe Hamelin <joe@nethead.com> wrote:
Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more about the candidate than most of the technical questions.
-- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
You are such an optimist ;-) Sometimes those who can remember the past get to repeat it anyway. TV On June 6, 2015 6:53:20 AM EDT, Dorian Kim <dorian@blackrose.org> wrote:
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”
-Santayana
Quite relevant in our industry that seems be more hell bent on rehashing ideas and plot lines than Hollywood.
-dorian
On Jun 6, 2015, at 6:43 AM, shawn wilson <ag4ve.us@gmail.com> wrote:
My first thought on reading that was "who the hell cares if a person knows about internet culture". But than I had to reconsider - it's a very apt way of telling if someone read the right books :)
I would also add Ritchie, Thompson, and Diffie to that list (since you ask about Larry, it's only appropriate).
I remember you asking me who Jon was :) I have since added to my
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:32 AM, jim deleskie <deleskie@gmail.com> wrote: list of
interview questions... sad but the number of people with clue is declining not increasing.
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Joe Hamelin <joe@nethead.com> wrote:
Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more about the candidate than most of the technical questions.
-- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 8:33 AM, tvest <tvest@eyeconomics.com> wrote:
You are such an optimist ;-)
Sometimes those who can remember the past get to repeat it anyway.
I remember seeing a slide deck for devs saying all new web apps are recreating mail, write, wall, and finger (the person posted it on FB, so of course I can't find it for ref)
nanog as dinosaur food
On 6June2015Saturday, at 10:34, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
nanog as dinosaur food
(not top-posting for your reading pleasure) Why do you love Marshal Rose? Why do you hate Jeff Case? Why would you buy Paul Traina a drink? Does Paul Francis deserve sainthood? (must add this to the Cult of Personality quiz)
On 06/06/2015 03:32 AM, jim deleskie wrote:
I remember you asking me who Jon was:) I have since added to my list of interview questions... sad but the number of people with clue is declining not increasing.
It's not a question of clue, but of history. How many CS grads are exposed to the details of the development of the Internet and Information Technology? Many of us know of Jon Postel because we experienced and appreciated his work for the Internet when he was alive. Ditto Richard Stevens. Now I ask you: how many students would delve into history that deeply? How many universities/colleges/trade schools would include that information in their curriculum? Moving on...Larry Wall -- I'm finding that the new generation of people don't use Perl any more, instead favoring Python for some reason. Indeed, my current job's management insists I learn Python, even though Perl has much more support for Cisco equipment as part of CPAN. So, given that bias, it wouldn't be surprising that the up-and-coming wouldn't know who invented a tool they don't use. Guido van Rossum, they know, maybe. People exposed only to Windows may or may not know about Paul Vixie's contributions to our world -- again, it's history that would be arcane for those who never dabbled in Unix or Unix-like systems, or didn't follow Internet politics. (Yes, BIND is implemented on Windows systems -- I consult to an ISP who suffers through the pain caused by the decision to do so -- but using a piece of software and knowing the history of that software are two different things, particularly when a person isn't doing DNS admin full-time.) If your goal is to play "Gotcha!", you need to go farther afield. What is "ARPAnet", and what role did it play in the development of the Internet? What is "XNS"? What is "ThickNet"? "ThinNet"? Expand and explain CTS, RTS, CD/DCD, MR, TR, RC, TC. What is V.35? HSSI? ITU? T1 and E1, and what is the difference? And so on through ISO level 1. Who was Thomas Watson? Who was Hollerith...and how did his invention trace its origins to silk tapestry? What problem was Hollerith trying to solve? Who is (were) Ken Olson and Harlan Anderson? Throw in Ada Lovelace and Grace Hopper. What is the significance of a 30 centimeter piece of twisted-pair wire, which Admiral Hopper would hand out at lectures? What is COBOL? (And I'm not referring to the planet Kobol that is part of the Battlestar Galactia universe.) Who were Ken Thompson, Brian Kernighan, Dennis Ritchie, and Phillip Plauger? Bill Joy? And so on, and so on, second star to the right and straight on 'till morning... Here's the topper: who was (is) Al Gore, and what part did he play in the birth of the Internet as we know it today? Try not to howl as some of the answers you will get.
Here's the topper: who was (is) Al Gore, and what part did he play in the birth of the Internet as we know it today? Try not to howl as some of the answers you will get.
Advocated for the funding of NREN while in Congress; later misquoted as saying he'd "invented the Internet" at some length, no? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Hamelin" <joe@nethead.com>
Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more about the candidate than most of the technical questions.
Original RFC editor. Invented Perl, among other things. Co-designed DNS (did I get that right?) I personally always label layers 8, 9, and 10 as money, management and inside counsel, but I know views differ. I don't RTFM, I google. It's often faster, so many of TFMs are online now. And this... is NANOG! What's my starting rate? :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Jay said:
Original RFC editor. Invented Perl, among other things. Co-designed DNS (did I get that right?) I personally always label layers 8, 9, and 10 as money, management and inside counsel, but I know views differ. I don't RTFM, I google. It's often faster, so many of TFMs are online now. And this... is NANOG! What's my starting rate? :-)
Close enough but I look for Evi's t-shirt for layers 8&9; financial and political. Back in 2000 your starting rate would have been $90k/yr, $25k signing and 9k of stock options at $21. It's that last one that makes me wish I could have drunk the Kool-Aid for 5 years. -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
On Jun 7, 2015 10:59 PM, "Jay Ashworth" <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
I don't RTFM, I google. It's often faster, so many of TFMs are online now.
Until Google supports regex and some of the duckduckgo module features, I'll be faster getting to reference to you will on Google. Notice I said reference, not an answer - sometimes you care more about the background than the answer (like if you're filing a bug). man /perldoc /rdoc /:help /etc is where it's at (and allows me to answer lots of questions with man foo ¦ grep bar - which is still bad but doesn't have such a negative feeling that lmgtfy or a Google link does). Also notice I intentionally left out the failed 'info' pages :) Point here is that "Google" is probably the wrong answer here.
On Jun 8, 2015 1:42 AM, "shawn wilson" <ag4ve.us@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 7, 2015 10:59 PM, "Jay Ashworth" <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
I don't RTFM, I google. It's often faster, so many of TFMs are online now.
Until Google supports regex and some of the duckduckgo module features,
I'll be faster getting to reference to you will on Google. Notice I said reference, not an answer - sometimes you care more about the background than the answer (like if you're filing a bug).
man /perldoc /rdoc /:help /etc is where it's at (and allows me to answer
lots of questions with man foo ¦ grep bar - which is still bad but doesn't have such a negative feeling that lmgtfy or a Google link does). Also notice I intentionally left out the failed 'info' pages :)
Point here is that "Google" is probably the wrong answer here.
Oh this NANOG and manufacturers have different levels of documentation, so I guess s/wrong/incomplete/ is more apt.
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote: [...]
And this... is NANOG!
Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like This...IS...NANOG!!! building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore. Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0] [0] Certified Crufty Old Fart
Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0]
I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that never got a chance to show it. They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles. I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and not that many under thirty five. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote: [...]
And this... is NANOG!
Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like
This...IS...NANOG!!!
building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0]
[0] Certified Crufty Old Fart
On 11/06/2015 4:46 p.m., Alex White-Robinson wrote:
Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0] I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that never got a chance to show it. They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles.
I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and not that many under thirty five.
An interesting statement; both my current network engineering team members are under 35 (and one is under 30) - i'm actually on the hunt for a slightly more senior resource at the moment to take up a vacant Team Leader role, and the candidates i've had apply are generally in their 30's. But perhaps New Zealand is a different audience to the North American continent. Fair enough. My career started as a Network Junior and i'm keen to facilitiate opportunities to move upward for others who're in similar circumstances to that which I was in ~10 years ago, surely i'm not that unusual...?? Mark.
I'm curious. What reading and comprehension level does one need to be considered a network heavy? No snark, I really would like to know. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 6:01 AM Mark Foster <blakjak@blakjak.net> wrote:
On 11/06/2015 4:46 p.m., Alex White-Robinson wrote:
Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0] I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that never got a chance to show it. They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles.
I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and not that many under thirty five.
An interesting statement; both my current network engineering team members are under 35 (and one is under 30) - i'm actually on the hunt for a slightly more senior resource at the moment to take up a vacant Team Leader role, and the candidates i've had apply are generally in their 30's.
But perhaps New Zealand is a different audience to the North American continent. Fair enough.
My career started as a Network Junior and i'm keen to facilitiate opportunities to move upward for others who're in similar circumstances to that which I was in ~10 years ago, surely i'm not that unusual...??
Mark.
There is a good reason there aren't LOTS of "good" neteng in the 30-35 or under 30 range with lots of experience. Its call the hell we went though for a while after 2000 working in this industry. Many of us lost jobs and couldn't find new ones. I know talented folks that had to go to delivering pizzas ( not to slag pizza delivery folks) to support themselves and their families. Some folks ended up leaving the industry because of it and I'm "sure" lots of people choose to no get into the field seeing no jobs. This type of event causes a whole that takes a long time correct. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Alex White-Robinson <alexwr@gmail.com> wrote:
Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0]
I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that never got a chance to show it. They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles.
I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and not that many under thirty five.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote: [...]
And this... is NANOG!
Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like
This...IS...NANOG!!!
building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0]
[0] Certified Crufty Old Fart
On Jun 11, 2015 7:07 AM, "jim deleskie" <deleskie@gmail.com> wrote:
There is a good reason there aren't LOTS of "good" neteng in the 30-35 or under 30 range with lots of experience. Its call the hell we went though for a while after 2000 working in this industry. Many of us lost jobs and couldn't find new ones. I know talented folks that had to go to
delivering
pizzas ( not to slag pizza delivery folks) to support themselves and their families. Some folks ended up leaving the industry because of it and I'm "sure" lots of people choose to no get into the field seeing no jobs. This type of event causes a whole that takes a long time correct.
So I'm at your early 30s mark too. I've read all y'all on getting in by helping grow the internet and not thinking these things still exist. Two thoughts: 1. Heard of IPv6? Wasn't made just to keep us employed. 2. I'd give anything to have replaced my Encarda (sp?) cd with Wikipedia in middle school. I'd have killed to replace my Motorola with an android or iPhone in high school. To not have a heavy ass bag of books hurting my hand and just grip my kindle. And to have had the ability to hook up a phone line to the 8088 or apple // in elementary school would've been awesome. I'm sure if you look you'll find similar conversations years earlier about "I got in by helping lay the groundwork for Unix/C/DARPANet. IDK what future generations will do to get a job at my level." You aren't the smartest person on the net and not the only person with luck to be in the right place. I hear about teachers using Wikipedia and podcasts as teaching aids and I think "they wouldn't even let me cite Wikipedia in college". Feel sorry for people if you want - I'll help people if I can but never do I think I had it better.
On 11 June 2015 at 06:46, Alex White-Robinson <alexwr@gmail.com> wrote:
Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0]
I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that never got a chance to show it. They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles.
I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and not that many under thirty five.
As someone who is under 35, this comment strikes a chord with me. I started self-studying networking when I was 15ish, yet I had to wait until I was 26 before I could get a full time job in the industry. I even had to move out of my home country. Getting a solid start in the industry was exceptionally hard, and I see no difference now. What I found is that back in early-mid 00's, the industry was a black box. Unless you knew someone inside of the industry, it was quite impossible to get clear career advice on how to a) get an entry level (support) job and b) how to move out of the entry level into an engineering position. We still suffer this lack of clarity, and it's *hurting* us. We should ask ourselves when is the last time we provided career advice to someone who was under 20, and strive to help more teenagers onto the networking path. Someone once suggested that we go back to our high schools and talk to the kids about a career in IT to help give them insight into what we do, and hopefully win over more mind share. /me goes back to being a hip youngster
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote: [...]
And this... is NANOG!
Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like
This...IS...NANOG!!!
building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0]
[0] Certified Crufty Old Fart
On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:24:31 +0200, Ruairi Carroll <ruairi.carroll@gmail.com> said: > What I found is that back in early-mid 00's, the industry was a > black box. Unless you knew someone inside of the industry... I suspect this is partly a result of the consolidation that went on. In the mid 1990s when I started, there were tons of small mom and pop ISPs with 28.8 modems stacked on Ikea shelving. The way that I got my first job as a student was literally by hanging around one of them and pestering them until they hired me part time. These small ISPs grew and most were eventually were acquired and people who stuck around through that -- especially the often quite complicated network integration that happens after acquisitions -- learned quite a lot about how the Internet operates at a variety of scales and saw a variety of different architectures and technical strategies. The scale and stability of today's Internet means that path is mostly closed now I think, particularly if what you want to do is get a job at a big company. But not entirely, there are still lots of rich field-learning opportunities on the periphery, in places where large carriers fear to tread... -w
I really wonder how people get into this field today. It has gotten incredibly complex and I've been learning since before I was a teenager (back when it was much more simple). I'm 31 now, but I started getting into computers and specifically networking at a very young age (elementary school). We had a pair of teachers that were enthusiasts and built up a computer lab with everything on token ring running Novell. I thought the fact that I could change to a different PC by driver letter in DOS was the most amazing thing I had ever seen in the 3rd grade. From there I was really hooked, got really into BBSing, and when the first dial-up ISPs started popping up I made it a point to get a job with them. My school district didn't offer a technical program for Internetworking but they had a technical school that competed in the SkillsUSA competitions and approached me about competing in the Internetworking event, without any education or mentor I won the gold medal at the State level both years I competed and went on to the nationals (where that lack of guidance and access to equipment to train on meant I got my slice of humble pie). I held my own, but the guys who won at the national level were just so much more prepared. Despite the stigma of SkillsUSA being trades focused, the Internetworking competition was a really great experience that mixed physical networking and basically a CCNA level of theory (they actually used an old copy of the CCNA as the exam). During this same time I got a paid internship for the local hospital and rebuilt their entire network after seeing the nightmare it was (they had the AS400 with all their healthcare data sitting on a public IP address with no firewall and default QSECOFR credentials sitting there for the taking with 5020 over IP enabled). It was pretty crazy for a high school student to be doing a full redesign of a network for a healthcare provider, even building frame-relay links between facilities and convincing the local cable company to provide dark fiber between a few. When I went to university I made it a point to get student employment with the NOC they ran to provide all of the public schools and libraries in the state with their Internet access, and that evolved into a full time job for them within a few years. Looking back, it's been like a perfect storm of opportunity that I just don't think exists today. I'm really happy I was born when I was and able to have a front row seat to see the explosion of the Internet. I don't know if I'm just getting "old" but I feel like technology has gotten so easy for young people that most of them have no idea how it works, and no desire to know. When we interview for new people, especially fresh out of school, its really disappointing when I hear them start to talk about a /24 as a "class C" and go on to find out the extent of their understanding ends at a textbook that is 20 years out of date. When I ask if they use Linux and they respond yes, I start getting into the details and learn they don't even know the basics on the CLI like being able to find and kill a process (thanks, Ubuntu). I think it's a big part of why the industry finds so little value in a degree vs. experience. That said, there are schools with dedicated networking programs that have really impressed me. RIT is the first that comes to mind. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 8:53 AM, William Waites <wwaites@tardis.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:24:31 +0200, Ruairi Carroll < ruairi.carroll@gmail.com> said:
> What I found is that back in early-mid 00's, the industry was a > black box. Unless you knew someone inside of the industry...
I suspect this is partly a result of the consolidation that went on. In the mid 1990s when I started, there were tons of small mom and pop ISPs with 28.8 modems stacked on Ikea shelving. The way that I got my first job as a student was literally by hanging around one of them and pestering them until they hired me part time. These small ISPs grew and most were eventually were acquired and people who stuck around through that -- especially the often quite complicated network integration that happens after acquisitions -- learned quite a lot about how the Internet operates at a variety of scales and saw a variety of different architectures and technical strategies.
The scale and stability of today's Internet means that path is mostly closed now I think, particularly if what you want to do is get a job at a big company. But not entirely, there are still lots of rich field-learning opportunities on the periphery, in places where large carriers fear to tread...
-w
-- Ray Patrick Soucy Network Engineer University of Maine System T: 207-561-3526 F: 207-561-3531 MaineREN, Maine's Research and Education Network www.maineren.net
25 year old neteng reporting in. I got into networking when I wanted to play Quake against my brother and trying to share a single dial-up connection between all the computers in the house. Well I still have a long way to go (employed full time in IT for just over 6 years), I think I am ahead of most IT pros in my age group. At the end of the day us young kids learned the same way most of you did, bit of education, and the vast majority from experience. I am at the point know where my self-education skills are effective enough that I can learn whatever I don't know and solve most any problem I come across. From what others have said, I think this is the key to success in this field, although I think this is a skill you develop early in life or you never get it. I am now trying to learn the things I didn't know I needed to know to solve problems I didn't know existed. I do agree there isn't a big interest from youth in this field. A lot of people get introduced to networking through education and never develop a passion for it. When they graduate they choose IT areas more interesting to themselves. Most schools are teaching recycled CCNA curriculum and/or thinking from the early 90s. Can't blame anyone who hasn't developed a passion for networking outside of education for not entering the field. Memorizing what an Ethernet frame looks like doesn't build an appreciation for networking, unless you can see the bigger picture. Steve Mikulasik -----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Ray Soucy Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 7:37 AM To: William Waites Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... I really wonder how people get into this field today. It has gotten incredibly complex and I've been learning since before I was a teenager (back when it was much more simple). I'm 31 now, but I started getting into computers and specifically networking at a very young age (elementary school). We had a pair of teachers that were enthusiasts and built up a computer lab with everything on token ring running Novell. I thought the fact that I could change to a different PC by driver letter in DOS was the most amazing thing I had ever seen in the 3rd grade. From there I was really hooked, got really into BBSing, and when the first dial-up ISPs started popping up I made it a point to get a job with them. My school district didn't offer a technical program for Internetworking but they had a technical school that competed in the SkillsUSA competitions and approached me about competing in the Internetworking event, without any education or mentor I won the gold medal at the State level both years I competed and went on to the nationals (where that lack of guidance and access to equipment to train on meant I got my slice of humble pie). I held my own, but the guys who won at the national level were just so much more prepared. Despite the stigma of SkillsUSA being trades focused, the Internetworking competition was a really great experience that mixed physical networking and basically a CCNA level of theory (they actually used an old copy of the CCNA as the exam). During this same time I got a paid internship for the local hospital and rebuilt their entire network after seeing the nightmare it was (they had the AS400 with all their healthcare data sitting on a public IP address with no firewall and default QSECOFR credentials sitting there for the taking with 5020 over IP enabled). It was pretty crazy for a high school student to be doing a full redesign of a network for a healthcare provider, even building frame-relay links between facilities and convincing the local cable company to provide dark fiber between a few. When I went to university I made it a point to get student employment with the NOC they ran to provide all of the public schools and libraries in the state with their Internet access, and that evolved into a full time job for them within a few years. Looking back, it's been like a perfect storm of opportunity that I just don't think exists today. I'm really happy I was born when I was and able to have a front row seat to see the explosion of the Internet. I don't know if I'm just getting "old" but I feel like technology has gotten so easy for young people that most of them have no idea how it works, and no desire to know. When we interview for new people, especially fresh out of school, its really disappointing when I hear them start to talk about a /24 as a "class C" and go on to find out the extent of their understanding ends at a textbook that is 20 years out of date. When I ask if they use Linux and they respond yes, I start getting into the details and learn they don't even know the basics on the CLI like being able to find and kill a process (thanks, Ubuntu). I think it's a big part of why the industry finds so little value in a degree vs. experience. That said, there are schools with dedicated networking programs that have really impressed me. RIT is the first that comes to mind. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 8:53 AM, William Waites <wwaites@tardis.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:24:31 +0200, Ruairi Carroll < ruairi.carroll@gmail.com> said:
> What I found is that back in early-mid 00's, the industry was a > black box. Unless you knew someone inside of the industry...
I suspect this is partly a result of the consolidation that went on. In the mid 1990s when I started, there were tons of small mom and pop ISPs with 28.8 modems stacked on Ikea shelving. The way that I got my first job as a student was literally by hanging around one of them and pestering them until they hired me part time. These small ISPs grew and most were eventually were acquired and people who stuck around through that -- especially the often quite complicated network integration that happens after acquisitions -- learned quite a lot about how the Internet operates at a variety of scales and saw a variety of different architectures and technical strategies.
The scale and stability of today's Internet means that path is mostly closed now I think, particularly if what you want to do is get a job at a big company. But not entirely, there are still lots of rich field-learning opportunities on the periphery, in places where large carriers fear to tread...
-w
-- Ray Patrick Soucy Network Engineer University of Maine System T: 207-561-3526 F: 207-561-3531 MaineREN, Maine's Research and Education Network www.maineren.net
+1 for experience.. being able to teach yourself just about anything drops you into the top 20% of any industry (with maybe a few exceptions). one thing I noticed is that the best professionals I met out there are just as good with people as they are with routers and console screens. IT is usually just a cost center (unless you work for a tech company), so if you learn how to navigate office politics and push change, then you will have a spot with the packet wrangling Gods. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Steve Mikulasik <Steve.Mikulasik@civeo.com> wrote:
25 year old neteng reporting in. I got into networking when I wanted to play Quake against my brother and trying to share a single dial-up connection between all the computers in the house.
Well I still have a long way to go (employed full time in IT for just over 6 years), I think I am ahead of most IT pros in my age group. At the end of the day us young kids learned the same way most of you did, bit of education, and the vast majority from experience.
I am at the point know where my self-education skills are effective enough that I can learn whatever I don't know and solve most any problem I come across. From what others have said, I think this is the key to success in this field, although I think this is a skill you develop early in life or you never get it. I am now trying to learn the things I didn't know I needed to know to solve problems I didn't know existed.
I do agree there isn't a big interest from youth in this field. A lot of people get introduced to networking through education and never develop a passion for it. When they graduate they choose IT areas more interesting to themselves. Most schools are teaching recycled CCNA curriculum and/or thinking from the early 90s. Can't blame anyone who hasn't developed a passion for networking outside of education for not entering the field. Memorizing what an Ethernet frame looks like doesn't build an appreciation for networking, unless you can see the bigger picture.
Steve Mikulasik
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Ray Soucy Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 7:37 AM To: William Waites Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
I really wonder how people get into this field today. It has gotten incredibly complex and I've been learning since before I was a teenager (back when it was much more simple).
I'm 31 now, but I started getting into computers and specifically networking at a very young age (elementary school). We had a pair of teachers that were enthusiasts and built up a computer lab with everything on token ring running Novell. I thought the fact that I could change to a different PC by driver letter in DOS was the most amazing thing I had ever seen in the 3rd grade. From there I was really hooked, got really into BBSing, and when the first dial-up ISPs started popping up I made it a point to get a job with them.
My school district didn't offer a technical program for Internetworking but they had a technical school that competed in the SkillsUSA competitions and approached me about competing in the Internetworking event, without any education or mentor I won the gold medal at the State level both years I competed and went on to the nationals (where that lack of guidance and access to equipment to train on meant I got my slice of humble pie). I held my own, but the guys who won at the national level were just so much more prepared. Despite the stigma of SkillsUSA being trades focused, the Internetworking competition was a really great experience that mixed physical networking and basically a CCNA level of theory (they actually used an old copy of the CCNA as the exam).
During this same time I got a paid internship for the local hospital and rebuilt their entire network after seeing the nightmare it was (they had the AS400 with all their healthcare data sitting on a public IP address with no firewall and default QSECOFR credentials sitting there for the taking with 5020 over IP enabled). It was pretty crazy for a high school student to be doing a full redesign of a network for a healthcare provider, even building frame-relay links between facilities and convincing the local cable company to provide dark fiber between a few.
When I went to university I made it a point to get student employment with the NOC they ran to provide all of the public schools and libraries in the state with their Internet access, and that evolved into a full time job for them within a few years.
Looking back, it's been like a perfect storm of opportunity that I just don't think exists today. I'm really happy I was born when I was and able to have a front row seat to see the explosion of the Internet. I don't know if I'm just getting "old" but I feel like technology has gotten so easy for young people that most of them have no idea how it works, and no desire to know.
When we interview for new people, especially fresh out of school, its really disappointing when I hear them start to talk about a /24 as a "class C" and go on to find out the extent of their understanding ends at a textbook that is 20 years out of date. When I ask if they use Linux and they respond yes, I start getting into the details and learn they don't even know the basics on the CLI like being able to find and kill a process (thanks, Ubuntu). I think it's a big part of why the industry finds so little value in a degree vs. experience.
That said, there are schools with dedicated networking programs that have really impressed me. RIT is the first that comes to mind.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 8:53 AM, William Waites <wwaites@tardis.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:24:31 +0200, Ruairi Carroll < ruairi.carroll@gmail.com> said:
> What I found is that back in early-mid 00's, the industry was a > black box. Unless you knew someone inside of the industry...
I suspect this is partly a result of the consolidation that went on. In the mid 1990s when I started, there were tons of small mom and pop ISPs with 28.8 modems stacked on Ikea shelving. The way that I got my first job as a student was literally by hanging around one of them and pestering them until they hired me part time. These small ISPs grew and most were eventually were acquired and people who stuck around through that -- especially the often quite complicated network integration that happens after acquisitions -- learned quite a lot about how the Internet operates at a variety of scales and saw a variety of different architectures and technical strategies.
The scale and stability of today's Internet means that path is mostly closed now I think, particularly if what you want to do is get a job at a big company. But not entirely, there are still lots of rich field-learning opportunities on the periphery, in places where large carriers fear to tread...
-w
-- Ray Patrick Soucy Network Engineer University of Maine System
T: 207-561-3526 F: 207-561-3531
MaineREN, Maine's Research and Education Network www.maineren.net
As someone who is under 35, this comment strikes a chord with me. I started self-studying networking when I was 15ish, yet I had to wait until I was 26 before I could get a full time job in the industry. I even had to move out of my home country. Getting a solid start in the industry was exceptionally hard, and I see no difference now.
What I found is that back in early-mid 00's, the industry was a black box. Unless you knew someone inside of the industry, it was quite impossible to get clear career advice on how to a) get an entry level (support) job and b) how to move out of the entry level into an engineering position. We still suffer this lack of clarity, and it's *hurting* us. We should ask ourselves when is the last time we provided career advice to someone who was under 20, and strive to help more teenagers onto the networking path. Someone once suggested that we go back to our high schools and talk to the kids about a career in IT to help give them insight into what we do, and hopefully win over more mind share.
Yes. This. Absolutely. I roped my wifes 9 year old nephew off his iPAD last night and had him help me cable up my home lab (which is currently at 3 racks, started at as an 1841/2924 in 2008.) He loved it. I was able to teach him all about layer 1. That's how I started (at the bottom as a gopher, pulling cables, racking gear and very hands on building out systems and networks). It helps to have passion/great attitude. That's key. I've been in the industry 15 years and am still bright eyed/bushy tailed every day (sure we all have bad days). So much to learn, to experience, to play with, to say "hey, what's this do?". The fundamentals haven't really changed, it's important to keep that in mind. To quote the magic school bus "make mistakes, get messy". (and occasionally, I knew I should of stayed home today, when the pager goes off. ) I've worked for Fox,Disney,IAC , consulted for various defense contractors, mom/pop shops. Every day at those jobs, it could span from helping a "newb" with something basic, to scaling up some of the worlds most recognized brands or defending (or crafting) highly advanced attacks. It's been fun. Now days, I do.... security. Lots and lots of security.
/me goes back to being a hip youngster
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote: [...]
And this... is NANOG!
Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like
This...IS...NANOG!!!
building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0]
[0] Certified Crufty Old Fart
!DSPAM:55797f9d282985036917588!
On Wednesday, June 10, 2015, Alex White-Robinson <alexwr@gmail.com> wrote:
Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0]
I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that never got a chance to show it. They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles.
I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and not that many under thirty five.
My unscientific impression is that 90% of the neteng jobs are for senior engineers on indeed.com with north of 5 years experience. Going back to the OP, looking for network heavies..... How do you get heavies if you don't grow a bench? My $dayjob open reqs are definately all sr eng or above. We have a decent internship program, but far from sufficient to grow a bench
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com <javascript:;>> wrote: [...]
And this... is NANOG!
Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like
This...IS...NANOG!!!
building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well
On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore.
Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0]
[0] Certified Crufty Old Fart
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 9:57 PM, James Laszko <jamesl@mythostech.com> wrote:
I asked one of my guys to tracert in windows for something and he executed pathping. I have never seen that in 25 years.... Go figure!
Yep, I learned something new (though IDK I'll ever use it - I'm guessing it's useless trivia, esp since I haven't done much with Windows in ~6 years now). My default traceroute is: nmap -Pn -p0 --traceroute <host>
On 06/05/2015 06:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote:
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute.
I didn't google traceroute. Didn't need to. Instead, I drew on the knowledge I gained when Clifford and I wrote _Linux IP Stacks Commentary_. Unfortunately, the Steven's books are not required reading in CCIE prep.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Elmar K. Bins <elmi@4ever.de> wrote:
eyeronic.design@gmail.com (Mike Hale) wrote:
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute.
None of course!
No, they read the man page, of course! -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
On 06/05/2015 06:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote:
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute.
You sort of nailed it though. I think ready knowledge about the internals of utilities such as traceroute or ping is nice to have, however if you don't know it it is not something that should disqualify you as an expert or someone with advanced knowledge in the field. Don't learn by heart that which you can look up. In this day and age where knowledge about every subject imaginable is a 5 second (to a minute for those less versed in researching) internet search away there is no need to hold all that knowledge iny our memory. What is far more important (above and beyond the basic skills) is the ability to research quickly, find out the answers you are looking for and apply them in a timely manner. It is actually not easy, because much to my dismay I have found out that so many people, whether they have a phd, or are the airco repair person, have such inability to even use the most basic research tools. It makes you feel like a search engine by proxy. :-( Greetings, Jeroen -- Earthquake Magnitude: 4.7 Date: 2015-06-08 22:20:42.040 UTC Date Local: 2015-06-08 15:20:42 PDT Location: 97km SSE of Makry Gialos, Greece Latitude: 34.1882; Longitude: 26.2303 Depth: 15.48 km | e-quake.org
On Mon, 8 Jun 2015, Jeroen van Aart wrote:
On 06/05/2015 06:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote:
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute.
Don't learn by heart that which you can look up. In this day and age where knowledge about every subject imaginable is a 5 second (to a minute for those less versed in researching) internet search away there is no need to hold all that knowledge iny our memory.
Reminds me of a job interview I had many years ago, where the interviewer was looking for me to quote chapter and verse of several RFCs for different routing protocols. Uh... yeah. jms
Yeah, I think that's more about them stroking their own ego than anything to do with you or the job. I've unfortunately seen a few of those types before as well.
On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Justin M. Streiner <streiner@cluebyfour.org> wrote:
On Mon, 8 Jun 2015, Jeroen van Aart wrote:
On 06/05/2015 06:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote: We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute.
Don't learn by heart that which you can look up. In this day and age where knowledge about every subject imaginable is a 5 second (to a minute for those less versed in researching) internet search away there is no need to hold all that knowledge iny our memory.
Reminds me of a job interview I had many years ago, where the interviewer was looking for me to quote chapter and verse of several RFCs for different routing protocols. Uh... yeah.
jms
This discussion is always reminisced of questions such as: Why would I want to learn Algebra or Calculus in college ? or why would I want to go to college at all ? .. the student argues that calculus or college is hardly ever used, if at all, in a job … the most sensible perspective has always been: It is not only about the knowledge itself, but how learning those subjects train your mind to tackle technical problems…same in networking… Some of the best interview questions are those that pose a problem and ask you to tackle it by explaining your train of thought…It requires both: knowledge and how to apply it... A simple example can be: What does the n*n or (n^2) problem represent in BGP ? … Where does the n*n formula come from ? …. these questions can trigger a technical interview conversation or Q&A…covering BGP-RR’s, BGP confeds, etc etc…maybe H-VPLS … By the time the conversation is over, there is a better grasp of someone’s understanding on networks … Yardiel On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Justin M. Streiner <streiner@cluebyfour.org> wrote:
On Mon, 8 Jun 2015, Jeroen van Aart wrote:
On 06/05/2015 06:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote:
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute.
Don't learn by heart that which you can look up. In this day and age where knowledge about every subject imaginable is a 5 second (to a minute for those less versed in researching) internet search away there is no need to hold all that knowledge iny our memory.
Reminds me of a job interview I had many years ago, where the interviewer was looking for me to quote chapter and verse of several RFCs for different routing protocols. Uh... yeah.
jms
-- Yardiel Fuentes
On Mon, 08 Jun 2015 17:10:25 -0700, Jeroen van Aart said:
You sort of nailed it though. I think ready knowledge about the internals of utilities such as traceroute or ping is nice to have, however if you don't know
Describe the top 3 gotchas of using traceroute to diagnose network problems. :) That's something you're not likely to look up if you're in the middle of a connectivity event....
'Don't learn by heart that which you can look up.'.... apart from enough basics to get you up and connected so that you CAN look things up! ;) There's a whole debate about the education system and learning things by rote that can be looked up. In many sectors you have reference tomes. ..some MUST be reviewed before doing any work. I think there are some key advantages to knowing things when in the field BEFORE you then see the rest of the day go by while troubleshooting. You have to know eg the basics of OSPF to know what to look up when an adjacency doesn't come up. ..to be in 'the right ballpark' as they say :) alan
we're allowed to recruit on nanog?... On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 4:19 PM John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Hello All,
eBay is looking for folks to join our Site Network Engineering team. eBay Site Network Engineering is responsible for the eBay SITE network from ToR to Peering Edge. You won't be bored. You will be challenged. You will have fun! This position is located in San Jose, California @ eBay HQ although exception may be made for extremely well qualified candidates.
*Qualifications:*
- 7+ years of experience in network design and implementation - 7+ years working at the highest level of technical escalation - Expert level multi-vendor experience in routing & switching with Arista, Cisco, Juniper, Nexus platforms - Expert level understanding of IPv4 & IPv6. Bonus points if you can tell me about IPv8. (The old guard will get that joke.) - Expert level BGP and OSPF - Understanding of multicast technologies such as PIM-SM and PIM-BiDir - Understanding of QoS and implementation strategies - Experience with L2 technologies such as MLAG and VPC - Experience with cloud architectures and network automation - Experience with SDN technologies such as VXLAN, NVGRE and Open vSwitch - Expert level troubleshooting skills - Functional knowledge of and comfort working in *nix environments - Ability to script in Bash, Perl, or other relevant languages. (Bonus for Python) - Excellent communications and documentation skills
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time! BSCS or other 4-year degree desired - may be substituted with relevant work experience
Translation of the above: Are you considered an expert by your industry peers? We know your family thinks you're a genius. Do your peers in the networking community agree? Do you want work on the bleeding edge of technology, playing with the biggest, baddest and bestest toys? Are you a team player who can also work alone providing creative solutions to complex problems using your "out of the box" thinking? Are you tired of being the "smartest guy in the room" when you're at work? Well then, I've got the job you're looking for! The above qualifications are the "wish list". That should give you a feel of whether or not you're qualified for this position though. You know your own skill set better than anyone else.
Just be advised: Please don't be a "buzzword bandit" on your CV. If you list a skill or experience, its fair game to ask you about these - in depth - during your phone screen and any subsequent in-person interviews.
Interested and Qualified candidates, please forward your CVs to jfraizer at ebay dot com.
eBay, Inc is an Equal Opportunity Employer
-- John Fraizer MTS2 - eBay Site Network Engineering
It's been over a decade since I was an active participant on NANOG. I didn't know that the NANOG-JOBS list existed. Sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission though. I guess it's a good thing Susan H. isn't here to throw me in NANOG jail, huh? John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 5, 2015 6:23 PM, "ryanL" <ryan.landry@gmail.com> wrote:
we're allowed to recruit on nanog?...
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 4:19 PM John Fraizer <john@op-sec.us> wrote:
Hello All,
eBay is looking for folks to join our Site Network Engineering team. eBay Site Network Engineering is responsible for the eBay SITE network from ToR to Peering Edge. You won't be bored. You will be challenged. You will have fun! This position is located in San Jose, California @ eBay HQ although exception may be made for extremely well qualified candidates.
*Qualifications:*
- 7+ years of experience in network design and implementation - 7+ years working at the highest level of technical escalation - Expert level multi-vendor experience in routing & switching with Arista, Cisco, Juniper, Nexus platforms - Expert level understanding of IPv4 & IPv6. Bonus points if you can tell me about IPv8. (The old guard will get that joke.) - Expert level BGP and OSPF - Understanding of multicast technologies such as PIM-SM and PIM-BiDir - Understanding of QoS and implementation strategies - Experience with L2 technologies such as MLAG and VPC - Experience with cloud architectures and network automation - Experience with SDN technologies such as VXLAN, NVGRE and Open vSwitch - Expert level troubleshooting skills - Functional knowledge of and comfort working in *nix environments - Ability to script in Bash, Perl, or other relevant languages. (Bonus for Python) - Excellent communications and documentation skills
Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time! BSCS or other 4-year degree desired - may be substituted with relevant work experience
Translation of the above: Are you considered an expert by your industry peers? We know your family thinks you're a genius. Do your peers in the networking community agree? Do you want work on the bleeding edge of technology, playing with the biggest, baddest and bestest toys? Are you a team player who can also work alone providing creative solutions to complex problems using your "out of the box" thinking? Are you tired of being the "smartest guy in the room" when you're at work? Well then, I've got the job you're looking for! The above qualifications are the "wish list". That should give you a feel of whether or not you're qualified for this position though. You know your own skill set better than anyone else.
Just be advised: Please don't be a "buzzword bandit" on your CV. If you list a skill or experience, its fair game to ask you about these - in depth - during your phone screen and any subsequent in-person interviews.
Interested and Qualified candidates, please forward your CVs to jfraizer at ebay dot com.
eBay, Inc is an Equal Opportunity Employer
-- John Fraizer MTS2 - eBay Site Network Engineering
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fraizer" <john@op-sec.us>
It's been over a decade since I was an active participant on NANOG. I didn't know that the NANOG-JOBS list existed. Sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission though. I guess it's a good thing Susan H. isn't here to throw me in NANOG jail, huh?
It's horrible. I got thrown in there after Katrina. Just an accident that I discovered later they'd left the door unlocked. And they don't feed you either. Now that the humor's out of the way, I've been on NANOG since the mid-90s and I didn't know we had a -jobs list at all... Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
participants (41)
-
Alan Buxey -
Alex White-Robinson -
Brandon Ross -
Ca By -
charles＠thefnf.org -
Dave Taht -
David Bass -
Dorian Kim -
Elmar K. Bins -
Faisal Imtiaz -
James Laszko -
Jared Mauch -
Jay Ashworth -
Jeroen van Aart -
jim deleskie -
Joe Hamelin -
John Fraizer -
Justin M. Streiner -
manning -
Mark Foster -
Matthew Petach -
Mehmet Akcin -
Michael Thomas -
Mike Hale -
nanog＠cdl.asgaard.org -
Rafael Possamai -
Randy -
Randy Bush -
Ray Soucy -
Ruairi Carroll -
ryanL -
shawn wilson -
Sina Owolabi -
Stefan -
Stephen Satchell -
Steve Mikulasik -
tvest -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu -
William Waites -
Yardiel Fuentes -
Łukasz Bromirski