----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Alfvin" <ralfvin@verilan.com>
Verilan is the exclusive network services provider for NANOG, IEEE 802, IETF, ICANN, ZigBee Alliance, MAAWG, OIF, GENIVI, Tizen and many other technical organizations. We deploy large temporary networks to provide high density WI-Fi for meetings, events and conferences all over the world where Internet connectivity is mission critical to the success of the event.
I'm quite certain I have a good idea of the magnitude of what you'd charge for professional services for such work, and I would expect it to be 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than what a Worldcon Concom could afford to pay. :-) I would also be very surprised -- having been on NANOG for over a decade now and never having heard your name -- to find out that you were the Exclusive Network Services Provider for NANOG... And I expect they'd be surprised too. Hey! Let's ask them! :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274
On 9/20/12 9:52 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
I'm quite certain I have a good idea of the magnitude of what you'd charge for professional services for such work, and I would expect it to be 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than what a Worldcon Concom could afford to pay. :-) I would also be very surprised -- having been on NANOG for over a decade now and never having heard your name -- to find out that you were the Exclusive Network Services Provider for NANOG... And I expect they'd be surprised too. Hey! Let's ask them! :-) Cheers, -- jra That's funny, my mailing archive says you had a conversation with the network contractor on this list during NANOG 53.
In a message Jay had apparently forwarded from offlist (or I missed the original) Rick said:
From: "Rick Alfvin" <ralfvin@verilan.com> Verilan is the exclusive network services provider for NANOG, IEEE 802, IETF, ICANN, ZigBee Alliance, MAAWG, OIF, GENIVI, Tizen and many other technical organizations. We deploy large temporary networks to provide high density WI-Fi for meetings, events and conferences all over the world where Internet connectivity is mission critical to the success of the event.
This points out another significant facter to why network isn't part of what's negotiated here. Internet is *not* considered mission critical by most attendees. Cheaper hotel rooms, adequate facilities, and inexpensive food nearby are the top three items Worldcon attendees complain about. So it's not going to be on the top of things to focus on. (and why this topic as it is being discussed is not relevant to this list) Those of us who feel Internet access is mission critical carry LTE network devices or make other arrangements. Obviously the growth of smartphones and tablets is starting to change that equation, but at the moment none of the Worldcons have done a very good job of providing useful online interaction so there's no actual use for onsite data related to the conference itself. Obviously I would love to see this change. For those who care about the economics of Worldcons, the following post is from a person deeply involved in the organization which holds the rights and trademarks for Worldcon. (Think Olympic Site Selection Committee, except they don't select the locations -- the members do) He covers a lot of the topics about why Worldcons are so very, very different from any of the conferences listed above, and why the economics of scale these conventions have don't work: http://kevin-standlee.livejournal.com/1166167.html Now, if we want to make this topic relevant to Nanog, the operative question is the feasability of a data provider putting good wireless gear near these facilities and selling data access to attendees. For a useful comparison, the 2010 Worldcon in Melbourne had an expensive wifi service in the building that kept falling over. A cell provider across the street put up banners advertising cheap data service, and put people on the sidewalk in from of the convention selling pay as you go SIM cards with data service. They made brisk business. *THIS* is where us network operators can provide good networking service to a large facility, and pretty much kill the expensive data plans operated by the facility. Instead of building up and tearing down a network for each convention, put an LTE tower near the facility and sell to every group that uses the convention center. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : net philanthropy to improve open source and internet projects.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jo Rhett" <jrhett@netconsonance.com>
Those of us who feel Internet access is mission critical carry LTE network devices or make other arrangements. Obviously the growth of smartphones and tablets is starting to change that equation, but at the moment none of the Worldcons have done a very good job of providing useful online interaction so there's no actual use for onsite data related to the conference itself. Obviously I would love to see this change.
And this is pretty much precisely why I'm hammering the nail; there's *lots* of stuff that could -- and properly should -- be technology assisted at the world's largest gathering of science fiction enthusiasts.
Now, if we want to make this topic relevant to Nanog, the operative question is the feasability of a data provider putting good wireless gear near these facilities and selling data access to attendees. For a useful comparison, the 2010 Worldcon in Melbourne had an expensive wifi service in the building that kept falling over. A cell provider across the street put up banners advertising cheap data service, and put people on the sidewalk in from of the convention selling pay as you go SIM cards with data service. They made brisk business. *THIS* is where us network operators can provide good networking service to a large facility, and pretty much kill the expensive data plans operated by the facility.
Assuming you can get close enough -- which won't be geographically practical for ... oh, wait; you're envisioning 3G, not WLAN. Yeah, I suppose that might work... until you consider that I will, personally, be bringing both laptops, my tablet, and my phone, all of which want to talk to the outside world. I would bet that I'm not all *that* unusual in that, at a Worldcon, based on some attendee conversations I've had at Anticipation and the much less well attended NASfic 10, ReConstruction. A lot of this, too, depends on what the concom negotiated with the property about wifi access already.
Instead of building up and tearing down a network for each convention, put an LTE tower near the facility and sell to every group that uses the convention center.
Can I get 12000 sessions on a single LTE tower? That's my benchmark for the moment, in the absence of real numbers. :-) Alas, this property has already just rebuilt it's wifi, I'm told. Course, the con is in 2015, so they may rebuild *again* by then. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274
On Sep 21, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
And this is pretty much precisely why I'm hammering the nail; there's *lots* of stuff that could -- and properly should -- be technology assisted at the world's largest gathering of science fiction enthusiasts.
No point in building fast access to nothing (related to the con) ;-) I'm not saying that's right, but it is what is. And don't forget that right now hard SF is a pretty mean minority. The vast majority of sci-fi fans are into steampunk and other alt history these days. (and don't get me started about that) iPhones are not generally strapped to their victorian outfits.
Assuming you can get close enough -- which won't be geographically practical for ... oh, wait; you're envisioning 3G, not WLAN. Yeah, I suppose that might work... until you consider that I will, personally, be bringing both laptops, my tablet, and my phone, all of which want
All of which can use LTE either natively or with a dongle.
to talk to the outside world. I would bet that I'm not all *that* unusual in that, at a Worldcon, based on some attendee conversations I've had at Anticipation and the much less well attended NASfic 10, ReConstruction.
You aren't unusual, but you aren't the average by a long shot.
A lot of this, too, depends on what the concom negotiated with the property about wifi access already.
And this is where you're going to hit some very hard walls. One of which I forgot to mention. Many of the hotels (I believe all Hilton properties at this time) have sold the facilities space for their wifi network to another company. They CAN'T negotiate it with you, because they don't own it any more. And most of these wifi networks have stealth killers enabled, so that they spoof any other wifi zone they see and send back reject messages to the clients. So you can't run them side by side. Try having a conversation with the hotel rep in charge of selling convention space about these kind of technical bits about wifi networks sometime. If you don't mind tearing your hair out at the time. Or tearing it out later, after you've been assured that the hotel will "make it all work" and then find that none of this equipment is within their control. (they don't care, you're already there and can't go anywhere else) Sorry I'm being so negative on this topic. Got more than a few burnt fingers on this one :)
Can I get 12000 sessions on a single LTE tower?
Yes. Can you get 12000 sessions through any single POE gateway? ;-) -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : net philanthropy to improve open source and internet projects.
Subject: Re: the economies of scale of a Worldcon, From: Jo Rhett <jrhett@netconsonance.com> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 13:08:22 -0700
On Sep 21, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
A lot of this, too, depends on what the concom negotiated with the property about wifi access already.
And this is where you're going to hit some very hard walls.
One of which I forgot to mention. Many of the hotels (I believe all Hilton properties at this time) have sold the facilities space for their wifi network to another company. They CAN'T negotiate it with you, because they don't own it any more. And most of these wifi networks have stealth killers enabled, so that they spoof any other wifi zone they see and send back reject messages to the clients. So you can't run them side by side.
This _is_ a "let's you and him fight" comment, but one might want to run an inquiry past the Friendly Candy Company, about the _legality_ of such 'killers' -- there are rules prorscribing _deliberate_/_intentional_ *active* "interference with radio communication" that do apply to 'unlicensed' spectrum.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jo Rhett" <jrhett@netconsonance.com>
On Sep 21, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
And this is pretty much precisely why I'm hammering the nail; there's *lots* of stuff that could -- and properly should -- be technology assisted at the world's largest gathering of science fiction enthusiasts.
No point in building fast access to nothing (related to the con) ;-)
True 'nuff.
I'm not saying that's right, but it is what is. And don't forget that right now hard SF is a pretty mean minority. The vast majority of sci-fi fans are into steampunk and other alt history these days. (and don't get me started about that) iPhones are not generally strapped to their victorian outfits.
Heh.
Assuming you can get close enough -- which won't be geographically practical for ... oh, wait; you're envisioning 3G, not WLAN. Yeah, I suppose that might work... until you consider that I will, personally, be bringing both laptops, my tablet, and my phone, all of which want
All of which can use LTE either natively or with a dongle.
As I noted in another reply, there are both "having a dongle" and "having an account" problem with that which are generally not easy to solve for the duration of a Worldcon (only).
to talk to the outside world. I would bet that I'm not all *that* unusual in that, at a Worldcon, based on some attendee conversations I've had at Anticipation and the much less well attended NASfic 10, ReConstruction.
You aren't unusual, but you aren't the average by a long shot.
Stipulated.
A lot of this, too, depends on what the concom negotiated with the property about wifi access already.
And this is where you're going to hit some very hard walls.
I don't know yet.
One of which I forgot to mention. Many of the hotels (I believe all Hilton properties at this time) have sold the facilities space for their wifi network to another company. They CAN'T negotiate it with you, because they don't own it any more. And most of these wifi networks have stealth killers enabled, so that they spoof any other wifi zone they see and send back reject messages to the clients. So you can't run them side by side.
Do FCC regs actually permit that, license-free-band be damned?
Try having a conversation with the hotel rep in charge of selling convention space about these kind of technical bits about wifi networks sometime. If you don't mind tearing your hair out at the time. Or tearing it out later, after you've been assured that the hotel will "make it all work" and then find that none of this equipment is within their control. (they don't care, you're already there and can't go anywhere else)
Well, yeah, but I don't think the contract is actually *signed* yet, and that I know which questions to ask, and what valid answers are, is precisely why I'm sticking my nose into it in the first place.
Sorry I'm being so negative on this topic. Got more than a few burnt fingers on this one :)
Understood. Thanks for throwing yourself manfully on the grenade.
Can I get 12000 sessions on a single LTE tower?
Yes. Can you get 12000 sessions through any single POE gateway? ;-)
POE? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274
On 9/23/12, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
Do FCC regs actually permit that, license-free-band be damned? [snip] In the US, operation of 802.11 WiFi devices in the unlicensed bands is authorized under part 15 of FCC regulations only; LICENSED radio operators, may be able to operate wireless networking devices e.g. WiMax under different rules, within their allocated frequency range.
If you know of an access point that is manufactured and marketed that intentionally causes radio interference when operated, then that might be grounds for a complaint against the FCC certification of the device, but sending forged protocol transmissions that look like 'reject' messages might not count, or may be a gray area; I have not heard of a ruling on..... I suppose it is an open question? http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=3fb4a93ba82bbca4b37c178c76f1f968&rgn=div5&view=text&node=47:1.0.1.1.16&idno=47 " (b) Operation of an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator is subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused and that interference must be accepted that may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station, by another intentional or unintentional radiator, by industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment, or by an incidental radiator. (c) The operator of a radio frequency device shall be required to cease operating the device upon notification by a Commission representative that the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected. (d) Intentional radiators that produce Class B emissions (damped wave) are prohibited. " -- -JH
Jo Rhett said:
One of which I forgot to mention. Many of the hotels (I believe all Hilton properties at this time) have sold the facilities space for their wifi network to another company.
PSAV is the company. I just installed about 20 Cisco WiFi radios at the Doubletree (a Hilton prop) at Sea-Tac. These covered only the convention space, conf rooms, ball rooms, whatnot. It would seem that the hotel is running their own system in the other public areas such as check-in, coffee shops and bars. Mostly they were well placed, often in the same spot as the existing radios. But I'd never throw a geek-con at that system. -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
On Sep 23, 2012, at 4:42 PM, Joe Hamelin wrote:
PSAV is the company. I just installed about 20 Cisco WiFi radios at the Doubletree (a Hilton prop) at Sea-Tac. These covered only the convention space, conf rooms, ball rooms, whatnot. It would seem that the hotel is running their own system in the other public areas such as check-in, coffee shops and bars.
Mostly they were well placed, often in the same spot as the existing radios. But I'd never throw a geek-con at that system.
Yeah, I just stayed at SeaTac a month back and had to shift to working offline and syncing upward, since I was getting modem-like speed through the network there. I think I ended up using my phone more than their wifi :( -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : net philanthropy to improve open source and internet projects.
I think you mean AT&T / wayport. They have ruined a number of hotels that I stay at. When you talk to support they always claim "unusual" event load due to the guests involved. I'm not expecting 50mbps in the room, but not getting past 256k or 512k defeats the purpose of asking me to offload their cellular network. (Which seems to not be congested by the same population). Jared Mauch On Sep 21, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Jo Rhett <jrhett@netconsonance.com> wrote:
One of which I forgot to mention. Many of the hotels (I believe all Hilton properties at this time) have sold the facilities space for their wifi network to another company.
participants (7)
-
Jared Mauch -
Jay Ashworth -
Jimmy Hess -
Jo Rhett -
Joe Hamelin -
joel jaeggli -
Robert Bonomi