Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives. Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD. A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "j k" <jsklein@gmail.com>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM Subject: Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike. Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud. On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "j k" < jsklein@gmail.com > To: "NANOG list" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM Subject: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like. Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet" --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
Except, you could argue they are exceling. Stocks are going up up up, and folks buy the product. I really wish stock holders would ask the proper questions in the quarterly calls. On 5/26/20 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives.
Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD.
A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike.
Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud.
On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:
The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:*"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com <mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>> *To:*"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> *Sent:*Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM *Subject:*Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like.
Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet"^ --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
I deploy Ubiquiti equipment quite a bit, both in WLANs and WISP distribution networks. It’s excellent quality at a dirt cheap price. As with all software-based products, there will be bugs. Your or my pet bug may never get fixed, based on market demand. That’s simply capitalism, not low quality. None of us can afford to pay for perfection, because it would never ship. I deployed 400 HP-Aruba APs at SFO, and that installation requires a full-time network engineer to manage the system. I’ve deployed many more times that in Unifi APs and they run perfectly well with only periodic software updates to accommodate new client device types. Unifi is 75% cheaper than Aruba, for essentially the same result. -mel
On May 26, 2020, at 6:29 AM, Matt Hoppes <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
Except, you could argue they are exceling. Stocks are going up up up, and folks buy the product.
I really wish stock holders would ask the proper questions in the quarterly calls.
On 5/26/20 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives. Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD. A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike. Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud. On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:*"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com <mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>> *To:*"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> *Sent:*Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM *Subject:*Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like. Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet"^ --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 01:43:02PM +0000, Mel Beckman wrote:
I deploy Ubiquiti equipment quite a bit, both in WLANs and WISP distribution networks. It???s excellent quality at a dirt cheap price. As with all software-based products, there will be bugs. Your or my pet bug may never get fixed, based on market demand. That???s simply capitalism, not low quality. None of us can afford to pay for perfection, because it would never ship.
Bugs exist in hardware products too. The difference is that with the software products, you'd hope for them to be fixed, whereas the ones in hardware generally turn into RMA. My current pet peeves with Ubiquiti are all on the router side of things. OSPFv3 (IPv6) doesn't work correctly past EdgeOS v1.10.9, and their BGP blows chunks - I've got an Infinity connected to a pair of route reflectors handling a single IX (two route servers) and it loses its mind, with the bgpd process actually going away. Whether that's Ubiquiti's fault or should be blamed on ZebOS is a debatable question. If you've got a vendor supplying your routing software, it seems like fixing advertised features that are clearly broken would be a matter of applying pressure on the upstream vendor whose code used to work and then was broken, not a matter of "market demand." What's not debatable is that this has been the status quo for around nine months. That's nine months without proper IPv6 support. And this is their high end 10G full BGP tables router. Buyer beware. The wifi side of things? Yes, the Ubiquiti stuff is very inexpensive and it provides better value-per-dollar than just about anything else out there. ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net "The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"-Asimov
JG, I empathize with your BGP problems. I’ve had problems with BGP on anything other than Cisco for my entire networking life. It’s just the nature of the beast, although that’s not an excuse for ubiquity not fixing it. But what is an excuse is market demand. How many people do you think speak BGP on ubiquiti routers? I know ubiquiti, like every company, likes to claim that they do everything. But no company can do everything, so you have to find out where their strengths are and avoid their weaknesses. Personally, I always put a pair of stacked Cisco layer3 switches at the edge of every BGP network. This gives me reliable, redundant BGP peering that operates at wire speed and can still carry full backbone tables. Use Cisco hardware let me do this for less money then I would pay for a buggy ubiquiti router. -mel via cell
On May 26, 2020, at 7:08 AM, Joe Greco <jgreco@ns.sol.net> wrote:
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 01:43:02PM +0000, Mel Beckman wrote:
I deploy Ubiquiti equipment quite a bit, both in WLANs and WISP distribution networks. It???s excellent quality at a dirt cheap price. As with all software-based products, there will be bugs. Your or my pet bug may never get fixed, based on market demand. That???s simply capitalism, not low quality. None of us can afford to pay for perfection, because it would never ship.
Bugs exist in hardware products too. The difference is that with the software products, you'd hope for them to be fixed, whereas the ones in hardware generally turn into RMA.
My current pet peeves with Ubiquiti are all on the router side of things. OSPFv3 (IPv6) doesn't work correctly past EdgeOS v1.10.9, and their BGP blows chunks - I've got an Infinity connected to a pair of route reflectors handling a single IX (two route servers) and it loses its mind, with the bgpd process actually going away.
Whether that's Ubiquiti's fault or should be blamed on ZebOS is a debatable question. If you've got a vendor supplying your routing software, it seems like fixing advertised features that are clearly broken would be a matter of applying pressure on the upstream vendor whose code used to work and then was broken, not a matter of "market demand."
What's not debatable is that this has been the status quo for around nine months. That's nine months without proper IPv6 support. And this is their high end 10G full BGP tables router. Buyer beware.
The wifi side of things? Yes, the Ubiquiti stuff is very inexpensive and it provides better value-per-dollar than just about anything else out there.
... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net "The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"-Asimov
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 02:44:40PM +0000, Mel Beckman wrote:
JG,
I empathize with your BGP problems. I???ve had problems with BGP on anything other than Cisco for my entire networking life. It???s just the nature of the beast, although that???s not an excuse for ubiquity not fixing it.
But what is an excuse is market demand. How many people do you think speak BGP on ubiquiti routers? I know ubiquiti, like every company, likes to claim that they do everything. But no company can do everything, so you have to find out where their strengths are and avoid their weaknesses.
Well, my point was more about the nature of software (it's fixable!) and the "market pressures deter edge case bux fixes" argument which appears to be a fallacy if you, as a hardware vendor, have paid a license for some professionally developed product, like ZebOS. ZebOS is the commercial offspring of Zebra, which forked Quagga, which forked FRR. I have minor complaints about all of them, but the open source developers have generally done well over the years. ZebOS is integrated into a variety of networking devices. A quick Google suggests this includes F5, SonicWall, Ubiquiti, Fortinet, and other devices. Ubiquiti produced its EdgeRouter Lite back in late 2012, able to do a million PPS on a $100 platform, so there's little doubt about their ability to create devices that do "hardware assisted" software packet routing. I was kinda hoping that the marriage of their hardware and ZebOS would result in a usable product. I am pretty sure that's what Ubiquiti expected to happen, so that they would not need to worry about the finer points of arcane routing protocols. I don't really have a need to do a bazillion PPS. There's still an Ascend GRF 400 here, and having passed the 150K routes mark, it now serves to lift my office laser printer to a better height. It's also part of why I try to avoid buying the hardware routers. There's no budget for it and hardware routers generally provide far more router than is needed here.
Personally, I always put a pair of stacked Cisco layer3 switches at the edge of every BGP network. This gives me reliable, redundant BGP peering that operates at wire speed and can still carry full backbone tables. Use Cisco hardware let me do this for less money then I would pay for a buggy ubiquiti router.
[assuming that was supposed to be "Used Cisco hardware"] Veering way off topic here, I wasn't aware that there were layer 3 stackable Cisco switches that could handle full BGP tables. The Ubiquiti Infinity is $1,800. I am curious what you're using. I have nothing against used hardware. ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net "The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"-Asimov
Your or my pet bug may never get fixed, based on market demand. That’s simply capitalism, not low quality.
No, that's low quality, full stop. Bugs need to be fixed in software that you are selling. I bought a product and I expect it to work. If they are going to tout themselves as enterprise grade, which they do (*Narrator: They're not*), then they need to fix bugs in their production software. - Mike Bolitho On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 6:44 AM Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
I deploy Ubiquiti equipment quite a bit, both in WLANs and WISP distribution networks. It’s excellent quality at a dirt cheap price. As with all software-based products, there will be bugs. Your or my pet bug may never get fixed, based on market demand. That’s simply capitalism, not low quality. None of us can afford to pay for perfection, because it would never ship.
I deployed 400 HP-Aruba APs at SFO, and that installation requires a full-time network engineer to manage the system. I’ve deployed many more times that in Unifi APs and they run perfectly well with only periodic software updates to accommodate new client device types. Unifi is 75% cheaper than Aruba, for essentially the same result.
-mel
On May 26, 2020, at 6:29 AM, Matt Hoppes < mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
Except, you could argue they are exceling. Stocks are going up up up, and folks buy the product.
I really wish stock holders would ask the proper questions in the quarterly calls.
On 5/26/20 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives. Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD. A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><; https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><; https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><; https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike. Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud. On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><; https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><; https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><; https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
*From:*"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com <mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>> *To:*"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> *Sent:*Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM *Subject:*Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like. Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet"^ --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
Mostly agree, but the "your pet bug" argument has validity. When the thing that isn't working is basic functionality, (e.g. IPv6) , there is no excuse for that not to work, and a company that tries to spin 'basic functionality" as "feature request" tends to dig their own grave. But many, many bugs are a result of a Large Spending Companies that told a vendor "implement this thing or I won't buy from you anymore". Sometimes that thing is a good feature that advances the entire industry, and sometimes that thing is a bad feature that only helps their situation and they are simply throwing money to make it someone else's problem. This is why we see the historical pattern. Vendor enters the space and they are great! Over some years their code bloats all to hell and turns into buggy garbage because they are spending 90% of their time supporting 10% of the features from 5% of their customers because they spend the most money. Eventually someone starts something new and enters the space and here we go again. Sound familiar? On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:45 AM Mike Bolitho <mikebolitho@gmail.com> wrote:
Your or my pet bug may never get fixed, based on market demand. That’s simply capitalism, not low quality.
No, that's low quality, full stop. Bugs need to be fixed in software that you are selling. I bought a product and I expect it to work. If they are going to tout themselves as enterprise grade, which they do (*Narrator: They're not*), then they need to fix bugs in their production software.
- Mike Bolitho
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 6:44 AM Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
I deploy Ubiquiti equipment quite a bit, both in WLANs and WISP distribution networks. It’s excellent quality at a dirt cheap price. As with all software-based products, there will be bugs. Your or my pet bug may never get fixed, based on market demand. That’s simply capitalism, not low quality. None of us can afford to pay for perfection, because it would never ship.
I deployed 400 HP-Aruba APs at SFO, and that installation requires a full-time network engineer to manage the system. I’ve deployed many more times that in Unifi APs and they run perfectly well with only periodic software updates to accommodate new client device types. Unifi is 75% cheaper than Aruba, for essentially the same result.
-mel
On May 26, 2020, at 6:29 AM, Matt Hoppes < mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
Except, you could argue they are exceling. Stocks are going up up up, and folks buy the product.
I really wish stock holders would ask the proper questions in the quarterly calls.
On 5/26/20 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives. Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD. A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><; https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><; https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><; https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
*From: *"Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike. Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud. On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><; https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><; https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><; https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
*From:*"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com <mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>> *To:*"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> *Sent:*Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM *Subject:*Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like. Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet"^ --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
tir. 26. maj 2020 17.04 skrev Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc>:
Mostly agree, but the "your pet bug" argument has validity.
When the thing that isn't working is basic functionality, (e.g. IPv6) , there is no excuse for that not to work, and a company that tries to spin 'basic functionality" as "feature request" tends to dig their own grave.
Even the big guys like Juniper fail at basic functionality. Our brand new MX204 fails to select the correct source address when doing ARP requests and apparently that is a known will not fix.
Even the big guys like Juniper fail at basic functionality. Our brand new MX204 fails to select the correct source address when doing ARP requests and apparently that is a known will not fix.
Apparently EX2300/EX3400 doesn't support STP when using Virtual Chassis and QFX51XX don't support firewall filters when using VXLAN. Both cannot/will not fix. How I long to be in the spend category that makes vendors care about fundamental issues.
Apparently EX2300/EX3400 doesn't support STP when using Virtual Chassis
Where did you find this? I'm only able to find the EX4300 mentioned in https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos/topics/task/configuration/... I see the following listed on the feature explorer for the EX2300-VC and EX3400-VC at https://apps.juniper.net/feature-explorer/select-platform.html?category=Switching&typ=1 BPDU protection for spanning-tree protocols - Junos OS 15.1X53-D50 Global configuration of spanning-tree protocols - Junos OS 15.1X53-D50 Loop protection for spanning-tree protocols - Junos OS 15.1X53-D50 Root protection for spanning-tree protocols - Junos OS 15.1X53-D50 Ryan Hamel On May 26 2020, at 11:09 pm, Phil Lavin <phil.lavin@cloudcall.com> wrote:
Even the big guys like Juniper fail at basic functionality. Our brand new MX204 fails to select the correct source address when doing ARP requests and apparently that is a known will not fix.
Apparently EX2300/EX3400 doesn't support STP when using Virtual Chassis and QFX51XX don't support firewall filters when using VXLAN. Both cannot/will not fix. How I long to be in the spend category that makes vendors care about fundamental issues.
Where did you find this?
Found out the hard way after buying and installing 20 of them. When a single node in a VC reboots, it starts switching traffic some seconds before it does STP so any loops that were previously blocked now flood - usually overloading the other 3400s on the network. Apparently this is just how the Broadcom chip works and cannot be fixed. That, twinned with some other significant stability issues, caused them to all go back for a refund. They did say a PR would be raised for this though I don't believe it has been - I can't find an external one, anyway. The QFX51XX issue is currently a won't fix. Worked fine in 17.x, broke in 18.x. No documentation or reasoning for the change, other than giving the distinct impression that we don't spend enough for them to care.
I have this exact same issue with Ubiquiti. Would go to network in which we designed spanning tree Loops in the event of a switch failure the network could automatically recover in keep portions from being disconnected. This all works fine until power loss greater than the run time on the UPS's. Seems to me like a simple fix, simply do not activate the switch ports until spanning tree is running and then activate them one at a time. Thanks ---------------------------------------------------- Gary Godard Chief Technical Officer 308 Pine St West Monroe, LA 71291 Office: 800-536-7035, Ext. 5201 Fax...: 888-471-8778 Direct: 318-884-9422 Email: gary@skyrider.net Web: http://www.skyrider.net LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-godard-48733920 On Wed, May 27, 2020, 02:53 Phil Lavin <phil.lavin@cloudcall.com> wrote:
Where did you find this?
Found out the hard way after buying and installing 20 of them. When a single node in a VC reboots, it starts switching traffic some seconds before it does STP so any loops that were previously blocked now flood - usually overloading the other 3400s on the network. Apparently this is just how the Broadcom chip works and cannot be fixed. That, twinned with some other significant stability issues, caused them to all go back for a refund. They did say a PR would be raised for this though I don't believe it has been - I can't find an external one, anyway.
The QFX51XX issue is currently a won't fix. Worked fine in 17.x, broke in 18.x. No documentation or reasoning for the change, other than giving the distinct impression that we don't spend enough for them to care.
On Tue, 26 May 2020 21:53:55 +0200, Baldur Norddahl said:
Even the big guys like Juniper fail at basic functionality. Our brand new MX204 fails to select the correct source address when doing ARP requests and apparently that is a known will not fix.
1987 called and wants their bug back. Seriously, how does something *that* basic even make it out of the lab?
I've been deploying Ubiquiti products since Robert was going around to the conferences himself, peddling his mini PCI card radios. I've deployed most of their product lines. I'm familiar with how they operate. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org> To: "Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> Cc: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 8:43:02 AM Subject: Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? I deploy Ubiquiti equipment quite a bit, both in WLANs and WISP distribution networks. It’s excellent quality at a dirt cheap price. As with all software-based products, there will be bugs. Your or my pet bug may never get fixed, based on market demand. That’s simply capitalism, not low quality. None of us can afford to pay for perfection, because it would never ship. I deployed 400 HP-Aruba APs at SFO, and that installation requires a full-time network engineer to manage the system. I’ve deployed many more times that in Unifi APs and they run perfectly well with only periodic software updates to accommodate new client device types. Unifi is 75% cheaper than Aruba, for essentially the same result. -mel
On May 26, 2020, at 6:29 AM, Matt Hoppes <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
Except, you could argue they are exceling. Stocks are going up up up, and folks buy the product.
I really wish stock holders would ask the proper questions in the quarterly calls.
On 5/26/20 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives. Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD. A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike. Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud. On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:*"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com <mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>> *To:*"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> *Sent:*Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM *Subject:*Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like. Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet"^ --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 6:44 AM Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Your or my pet bug may never get fixed, based on market demand.
Gonna have to disagree with you there. I'm not sure if it was a cashflow issue or what, but they launched the Unifi Dream Machine Pro after a very short testing period. A client bought two thinking they could replace their office firewall with it. There were *so* many show-stopping issues with the product, it was basically a brick for ~4 months. You couldn't configure the device unless it had a non RFC-1918 address on its WAN interface. It crashed frequently both due to software bugs and memory usage. Software updates frequently b0rked things...and backup/restore was broken. Interfaces would disconnect and reconnect for ~30 seconds several times per hour. I tested it for my client and had a list of ~15 show-stopper bugs that prevented us from putting it into production. Thankfully they were "quick" to fix it. It's been ~3 months and all the show-stoppers seem to be resolved. Things like logging and graphing are still broken, but that doesn't stop internet access. Regardless, they shouldn't have pushed a completely broken device out the door as being ready for public sale. It should still be in beta today in my opinion. -A
Kind of OT for NANOG, but stock value is a terribly inaccurate way to measure if a company is "excelling." Wall Street knows nothing of how to run a company, prioritizing quarterly profit over long-term success. Not hiring additional staff makes your quarterly numbers look good, but it isn't good for the long-term attractiveness of your product. A good business doesn't just target new suckers, they also keep existing customers happy. Eventually you run out of suckers and all you have is a bunch of burned bridges in your wake. I subscribe to several feature requests in their community that are YEARS old with little to no response from Ubiquiti. Some of them can't be hard for Ubiquiti to implement because they're running on the exact same hardware and underlying OS and some of them you can configure in JSON files, but they just aren't available in the GUI. They just don't care. They'd rather push out Flavor Flav cameras or lighting. They came out with a new product in a particular family and opened a new feature request section for it. I commented something similar to, "Start with feature parity with the existing product, then start working through the years of feature requests there. Come back when you're done." This doesn't just afflict equipment manufacturers. Network operators are in the same boat. Both groups have companies profiting hundreds of millions or billions of dollars every quarter, can't spare a few hundred grand a year for a couple dev-ops guys to just bang out automation or features. Yes, I understand you rarely get twice the work from twice the people, but there are opportunities to make this better. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 8:28:52 AM Subject: Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Except, you could argue they are exceling. Stocks are going up up up, and folks buy the product. I really wish stock holders would ask the proper questions in the quarterly calls. On 5/26/20 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives.
Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD.
A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike.
Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud.
On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:
The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:*"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com <mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>> *To:*"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> *Sent:*Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM *Subject:*Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like.
Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet"^ --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
For you an I, a hundred grand of reinvestment in the product and business makes perfect sense. Make a good product, you will sell more of it, the customers win, the business wins, the shareholders win. For those who ascribe a different line of thinking, a few hundred grand of reinvestment in the product means THEY DIDN'T MAXIMIZE SHAREHOLDER VALUE FOR MY 0.02% OWNERSHIP , TIME TO FILE SUIT! On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:22 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Kind of OT for NANOG, but stock value is a terribly inaccurate way to measure if a company is "excelling." Wall Street knows nothing of how to run a company, prioritizing quarterly profit over long-term success. Not hiring additional staff makes your quarterly numbers look good, but it isn't good for the long-term attractiveness of your product. A good business doesn't just target new suckers, they also keep existing customers happy. Eventually you run out of suckers and all you have is a bunch of burned bridges in your wake.
I subscribe to several feature requests in their community that are YEARS old with little to no response from Ubiquiti. Some of them can't be hard for Ubiquiti to implement because they're running on the exact same hardware and underlying OS and some of them you can configure in JSON files, but they just aren't available in the GUI. They just don't care. They'd rather push out Flavor Flav cameras or lighting.
They came out with a new product in a particular family and opened a new feature request section for it. I commented something similar to, "Start with feature parity with the existing product, then start working through the years of feature requests there. Come back when you're done."
This doesn't just afflict equipment manufacturers. Network operators are in the same boat. Both groups have companies profiting hundreds of millions or billions of dollars every quarter, can't spare a few hundred grand a year for a couple dev-ops guys to just bang out automation or features. Yes, I understand you rarely get twice the work from twice the people, but there are opportunities to make this better.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 8:28:52 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Except, you could argue they are exceling. Stocks are going up up up, and folks buy the product.
I really wish stock holders would ask the proper questions in the quarterly calls.
On 5/26/20 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives.
Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD.
A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><; https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><; https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><; https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike.
Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud.
On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:
The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><; https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><; https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><; https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com <mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>> *To:*"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> *Sent:*Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM *Subject:*Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like.
Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet"^ --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
" stock value is a terribly inaccurate way to measure if a company is "excelling." " That requires qualification. Stock value might be a "terribly inaccurate way" in the short term but in the long term, it reflects whether you have a marketable product or not. On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:20 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Kind of OT for NANOG, but stock value is a terribly inaccurate way to measure if a company is "excelling." Wall Street knows nothing of how to run a company, prioritizing quarterly profit over long-term success. Not hiring additional staff makes your quarterly numbers look good, but it isn't good for the long-term attractiveness of your product. A good business doesn't just target new suckers, they also keep existing customers happy. Eventually you run out of suckers and all you have is a bunch of burned bridges in your wake.
I subscribe to several feature requests in their community that are YEARS old with little to no response from Ubiquiti. Some of them can't be hard for Ubiquiti to implement because they're running on the exact same hardware and underlying OS and some of them you can configure in JSON files, but they just aren't available in the GUI. They just don't care. They'd rather push out Flavor Flav cameras or lighting.
They came out with a new product in a particular family and opened a new feature request section for it. I commented something similar to, "Start with feature parity with the existing product, then start working through the years of feature requests there. Come back when you're done."
This doesn't just afflict equipment manufacturers. Network operators are in the same boat. Both groups have companies profiting hundreds of millions or billions of dollars every quarter, can't spare a few hundred grand a year for a couple dev-ops guys to just bang out automation or features. Yes, I understand you rarely get twice the work from twice the people, but there are opportunities to make this better.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 8:28:52 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Except, you could argue they are exceling. Stocks are going up up up, and folks buy the product.
I really wish stock holders would ask the proper questions in the quarterly calls.
On 5/26/20 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives.
Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD.
A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><; https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><; https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><; https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike.
Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud.
On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:
The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><; https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><; https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><; https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com <mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>> *To:*"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> *Sent:*Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM *Subject:*Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like.
Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet"^ --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
-- Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale Assistant Lecturer Department of Communications & Computer Engineering Faculty of Information & Communication Technology University of Malta Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
Hertz car rental has the #1 product in its industry, even its major competitor Avis agrees (“We’re number two“:-), and yet Hertz stock is plunging towards zero even as we speak. Stock price has nothing to do with product quality. Theranos, for example, had a completely fictional product, yet it stock price skyrocketed. Stock price is simply a way of measuring the perceived market value of a company‘s earning potential. -mel beckman On May 26, 2020, at 11:50 PM, Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org> wrote: " stock value is a terribly inaccurate way to measure if a company is "excelling." " That requires qualification. Stock value might be a "terribly inaccurate way" in the short term but in the long term, it reflects whether you have a marketable product or not. On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:20 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: Kind of OT for NANOG, but stock value is a terribly inaccurate way to measure if a company is "excelling." Wall Street knows nothing of how to run a company, prioritizing quarterly profit over long-term success. Not hiring additional staff makes your quarterly numbers look good, but it isn't good for the long-term attractiveness of your product. A good business doesn't just target new suckers, they also keep existing customers happy. Eventually you run out of suckers and all you have is a bunch of burned bridges in your wake. I subscribe to several feature requests in their community that are YEARS old with little to no response from Ubiquiti. Some of them can't be hard for Ubiquiti to implement because they're running on the exact same hardware and underlying OS and some of them you can configure in JSON files, but they just aren't available in the GUI. They just don't care. They'd rather push out Flavor Flav cameras or lighting. They came out with a new product in a particular family and opened a new feature request section for it. I commented something similar to, "Start with feature parity with the existing product, then start working through the years of feature requests there. Come back when you're done." This doesn't just afflict equipment manufacturers. Network operators are in the same boat. Both groups have companies profiting hundreds of millions or billions of dollars every quarter, can't spare a few hundred grand a year for a couple dev-ops guys to just bang out automation or features. Yes, I understand you rarely get twice the work from twice the people, but there are opportunities to make this better. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ________________________________ From: "Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net<mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net>> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> Cc: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 8:28:52 AM Subject: Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks? Except, you could argue they are exceling. Stocks are going up up up, and folks buy the product. I really wish stock holders would ask the proper questions in the quarterly calls. On 5/26/20 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives.
Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD.
A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com<mailto:bp@list-subs.com>> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> *Cc: *"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com<mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike.
Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud.
On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net> <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>>> wrote:
The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:*"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com<mailto:jsklein@gmail.com> <mailto:jsklein@gmail.com<mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>>> *To:*"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> <mailto:nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>> *Sent:*Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM *Subject:*Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like.
Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet"^ --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
-- Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale Assistant Lecturer Department of Communications & Computer Engineering Faculty of Information & Communication Technology University of Malta Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 10:00, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote: Hertz car rental has the #1 product in its industry, even its major
competitor Avis agrees (“We’re number two“:-), and yet Hertz stock is plunging towards zero even as we speak. Stock price has nothing to do with product quality. Theranos, for example, had a completely fictional product, yet it stock price skyrocketed.
I agree with the sentiment that stock value cannot be used to glean ~anything, certainly not something specific like 'marketability of product'. I'd be interested in reading paper where stock value is determined to be more reliable than random metric on anything except stock value. However Hertz depreciation is caused by the anticipation that debtors will receive almost all of the equity, diluting the current owners by massive ratio. The value tries to reflect post-dilution value. My Stetson-Harrision analysis tells that current owners will end up owning less than 20% of Hertz and more than 80% goes to debtors. So by that logic, 80% of Hertz value is currently not trading. -- ++ytti
In article <CAAeewD-OkTmGp5-tMRXChkh9Y2+NFkWKDYJjMyT0uwfP2_40Rg@mail.gmail.com> you write:
On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 10:00, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Hertz car rental has the #1 product in its industry, even its major
competitor Avis agrees (“We’re number two“:-), and yet Hertz stock is plunging towards zero even as we speak. ...
However Hertz depreciation is caused by the anticipation that debtors will receive almost all of the equity, diluting the current owners by massive ratio. ...
Hertz suffers from an over-clever structure in which they lease their cars from special purpose funds owned by private investors. Since there is currently no demand for airport car rental, nor any demand for used cars, the value of the cars has dropped, and Hertz got what was in effect a margin call. But since there is no demand for airport car rental nor used cars, Hertz has no revenue with which to pay the margin calls. Uh, oh, repo time. This doesn't tell us much beyond the fact that if you are in a business in which an unforseen event destroys both your income stream and the value of your major asset, you are in trouble. As far as I know neither applies to makers of routers and other Internet hardware.
I disagree with your certainty, Saku. That's best left to results in papers, as you correctly point out. On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:07 AM Saku Ytti <saku@ytti.fi> wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 10:00, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Hertz car rental has the #1 product in its industry, even its major
competitor Avis agrees (“We’re number two“:-), and yet Hertz stock is plunging towards zero even as we speak. Stock price has nothing to do with product quality. Theranos, for example, had a completely fictional product, yet it stock price skyrocketed.
I agree with the sentiment that stock value cannot be used to glean ~anything, certainly not something specific like 'marketability of product'. I'd be interested in reading paper where stock value is determined to be more reliable than random metric on anything except stock value.
However Hertz depreciation is caused by the anticipation that debtors will receive almost all of the equity, diluting the current owners by massive ratio. The value tries to reflect post-dilution value. My Stetson-Harrision analysis tells that current owners will end up owning less than 20% of Hertz and more than 80% goes to debtors. So by that logic, 80% of Hertz value is currently not trading.
-- ++ytti
-- Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale Assistant Lecturer Department of Communications & Computer Engineering Faculty of Information & Communication Technology University of Malta Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
I disagree, Mel. Your quoting of exceptions, even if they were correct, doesn't invalidate the generalization that stock price is linked to product marketability. You can think of it in terms of data science: product marketability is a good predictor of stock price. On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Hertz car rental has the #1 product in its industry, even its major competitor Avis agrees (“We’re number two“:-), and yet Hertz stock is plunging towards zero even as we speak. Stock price has nothing to do with product quality. Theranos, for example, had a completely fictional product, yet it stock price skyrocketed.
Stock price is simply a way of measuring the perceived market value of a company‘s earning potential.
-mel beckman
On May 26, 2020, at 11:50 PM, Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org> wrote:
" stock value is a terribly inaccurate way to measure if a company is "excelling." "
That requires qualification.
Stock value might be a "terribly inaccurate way" in the short term but in the long term, it reflects whether you have a marketable product or not.
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:20 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Kind of OT for NANOG, but stock value is a terribly inaccurate way to measure if a company is "excelling." Wall Street knows nothing of how to run a company, prioritizing quarterly profit over long-term success. Not hiring additional staff makes your quarterly numbers look good, but it isn't good for the long-term attractiveness of your product. A good business doesn't just target new suckers, they also keep existing customers happy. Eventually you run out of suckers and all you have is a bunch of burned bridges in your wake.
I subscribe to several feature requests in their community that are YEARS old with little to no response from Ubiquiti. Some of them can't be hard for Ubiquiti to implement because they're running on the exact same hardware and underlying OS and some of them you can configure in JSON files, but they just aren't available in the GUI. They just don't care. They'd rather push out Flavor Flav cameras or lighting.
They came out with a new product in a particular family and opened a new feature request section for it. I commented something similar to, "Start with feature parity with the existing product, then start working through the years of feature requests there. Come back when you're done."
This doesn't just afflict equipment manufacturers. Network operators are in the same boat. Both groups have companies profiting hundreds of millions or billions of dollars every quarter, can't spare a few hundred grand a year for a couple dev-ops guys to just bang out automation or features. Yes, I understand you rarely get twice the work from twice the people, but there are opportunities to make this better.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 8:28:52 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Except, you could argue they are exceling. Stocks are going up up up, and folks buy the product.
I really wish stock holders would ask the proper questions in the quarterly calls.
On 5/26/20 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
That is a big problem. In terms of their UniFi product line, there are no reasonable alternatives.
Upper management is the biggest problem. They have severe ADD.
A ton of companies have these kinds of issues. They just plain don't hire enough people in the right areas to really excel.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><; https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><; https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><; https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Ben P" <bp@list-subs.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, May 26, 2020 5:01:36 AM *Subject: *Re: Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Agree 1000% with the sentiments expressed by Mike.
Unfortunately despite much research I’ve been unable to find a suitable replacement vendor. All the other vendors seem to want to ram cloud-management down your throat which I absolutely do not want. My network, my control, not under the auspices of someone else’s magic cloud.
On 25 May 2020, at 21:21, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:
The company has mostly fallen apart. Their sales are going up, but their responsiveness and customer support have been declining over the last five years.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><; https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><; https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><; https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><; https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*"j k" <jsklein@gmail.com <mailto:jsklein@gmail.com>> *To:*"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> *Sent:*Monday, May 25, 2020 3:16:36 PM *Subject:*Contact at Ubiquiti Networks?
Does anyone have a good contact at Ubiquity Networks? Finding a pattern I don't like.
Joe Klein "inveniet viam, aut faciet"^ --- Seneca's Hercules Furens (Act II, Scene 1) "I never lose. I either win or learn" - Nelson Mandela
-- Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale Assistant Lecturer Department of Communications & Computer Engineering Faculty of Information & Communication Technology University of Malta Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
-- Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale Assistant Lecturer Department of Communications & Computer Engineering Faculty of Information & Communication Technology University of Malta Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 3:40 AM Etienne-Victor Depasquale <edepa@ieee.org> wrote:
I disagree, Mel.
Your quoting of exceptions, even if they were correct, doesn't invalidate the generalization that stock price is linked to product marketability.
You can think of it in terms of data science: product marketability is a good predictor of stock price.
I'd refine it slightly - the market's _impression_ of product marketability is a good predictor of stock price. That would include Mel's exceptions, I believe. -- Jeff Shultz -- Like us on Social Media for News, Promotions, and other information!! <https://www.facebook.com/SCTCWEB/> <https://www.instagram.com/sctc_503/> <https://www.yelp.com/biz/sctc-stayton-3> <https://www.youtube.com/c/sctcvideos> _**** This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. ****_
participants (16)
-
Aaron C. de Bruyn -
Baldur Norddahl -
Etienne-Victor Depasquale -
Gary Godard -
Jeff Shultz -
Joe Greco -
John Levine -
Matt Hoppes -
Mel Beckman -
Mike Bolitho -
Mike Hammett -
Phil Lavin -
Ryan Hamel -
Saku Ytti -
Tom Beecher -
Valdis Klētnieks