Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
Not as bad as Myanmar (14%), Internet connectivity in Texas has been declining today. According to NetBlocks, which normally monitors government imposed outages, reports network connectivity at 68% in Texas. https://netblocks.org/ Texas operates a separate electric grid, with limited interconnections to the rest of North America. For political reasons.... For those with long memories, ENRON a Texas based corporation, once upon a time drove rolling blackouts across California in order to make billions.
See also, regional maps here. Thanks to CAIDA and the IODA project. https://ioda.caida.org/ioda/dashboard On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 5:54 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Not as bad as Myanmar (14%), Internet connectivity in Texas has been declining today. According to NetBlocks, which normally monitors government imposed outages, reports network connectivity at 68% in Texas.
Texas operates a separate electric grid, with limited interconnections to the rest of North America. For political reasons....
For those with long memories, ENRON a Texas based corporation, once upon a time drove rolling blackouts across California in order to make billions.
See also ISI's [1] ANT Evaluation of Internet Outages map: https://outage.ant.isi.edu/?zoom=6&lon=-98.100178&lat=36.512017&canvas=dark&ts=1613564040&speed=8&db=ostreaming&grid=1&splash=0&poi_scale=3 [1] https://ant.isi.edu/outage/ On Mon 2021-02-15 18:04:07-0800 Eric wrote:
See also, regional maps here. Thanks to CAIDA and the IODA project.
https://ioda.caida.org/ioda/dashboard
On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 5:54 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Not as bad as Myanmar (14%), Internet connectivity in Texas has been declining today. According to NetBlocks, which normally monitors government imposed outages, reports network connectivity at 68% in Texas.
Texas operates a separate electric grid, with limited interconnections to the rest of North America. For political reasons....
For those with long memories, ENRON a Texas based corporation, once upon a time drove rolling blackouts across California in order to make billions.
-- Robert Story <http://www.isi.edu/~rstory> USC Information Sciences Institute <http://www.isi.edu/>
Poweroutage.us posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power outages elsewhere in the country. https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402 Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural hazards."
On 2/16/21 04:14, Sean Donelan wrote:
Poweroutage.us posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power outages elsewhere in the country.
https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402
Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural hazards."
I suppose having some kind of home backup solution wouldn't be too bad right now, even though you may still not get access to services. But at least, you can brew some coffee, and charge your pulse oximetre. Mark.
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here.. Robert Jacobs | Data Center Manager Direct: 832-615-7742 Mobile: 281-830-2092 Main: 832-615-8000 Fax: 713-510-1650 5959 Corporate Dr. Suite 3300; Houston, TX 77036 A Certified Woman-Owned Business 24x7x365 Customer Support: 832-615-8000 | support@pslightwave.com This electronic message contains information from PS Lightwave which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify me by telephone or e-mail immediately. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rjacobs=pslightwave.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 10:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On 2/16/21 04:14, Sean Donelan wrote:
Poweroutage.us posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power outages elsewhere in the country.
https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402
Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural hazards."
I suppose having some kind of home backup solution wouldn't be too bad right now, even though you may still not get access to services. But at least, you can brew some coffee, and charge your pulse oximetre. Mark.
Ercot has already released actual documentation of the outputs. Wind is NOT the biggest loss here. Even if wind was operating at 100% capacity, we’d be in the same boat due to gas and fossil fuel-related generation being decimated. Estimated 4GW lost for wind doesn’t make up for the 30GW+ estimated being lost from fossil fuels. I only interject because people are already pointing their fingers at renewables being the cause here and trying to pawn off the blame to wind/solar to further their agendas to reduce renewable energy R&D and adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way. Sent from ProtonMail Mobile On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:17 PM, Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com> wrote:
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here..
Robert Jacobs | Data Center Manager
Direct: [832-615-7742](tel:832-615-7742) Mobile: [281-830-2092](tel:281-830-2092) Main: 832‑615‑8000 Fax: 713-510-1650
5959 Corporate Dr. Suite 3300; Houston, TX 77036
[Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/pslightwave/) [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/company/pslightwave) [Twitter](https://twitter.com/PSLightwave)
http://www.pslightwave.com/ A Certified Woman‑Owned Business 24x7x365 Customer Support: 832-615-8000 | support@pslightwave.com
This electronic message contains information from PS Lightwave which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify me by telephone or e-mail immediately.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rjacobs=pslightwave.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 10:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On 2/16/21 04:14, Sean Donelan wrote:
Poweroutage.us posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power outages elsewhere in the country.
https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402
Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural hazards."
I suppose having some kind of home backup solution wouldn't be too bad right now, even though you may still not get access to services. But at least, you can brew some coffee, and charge your pulse oximetre.
Mark.
On 2/16/21 06:34, Cory Sell wrote:
Ercot has already released actual documentation of the outputs. Wind is NOT the biggest loss here. Even if wind was operating at 100% capacity, we’d be in the same boat due to gas and fossil fuel-related generation being decimated. Estimated 4GW lost for wind doesn’t make up for the 30GW+ estimated being lost from fossil fuels.
I only interject because people are already pointing their fingers at renewables being the cause here and trying to pawn off the blame to wind/solar to further their agendas to reduce renewable energy R&D and adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way.
That much generation loss from a wind farm would surprise me. Mark.
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Cory Sell via NANOG wrote:
adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way.
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state. The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
Total population is a pretty big difference as you go north, as is how well infrastructure is actually prepared for snow/ice and cold temperatures in general. I’ve been without power all day and have no doubt I’ll cross the 24-hour mark here in a handful of hours. Sent from ProtonMail Mobile On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:42 PM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Cory Sell via NANOG wrote:
adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way.
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
Almost exactly 4 years ago we were out up here in Michigan for over 120 hours after a wind storm took out power to 1 million homes. Large scale restoration takes time. When the load and supply are imbalanced it can make things worse as well. I'm hoping things return to normal soon but also am reminded it can take some time. We now have a large generator with automatic switchover after that event. Filling gas cans every 12 hours to feed the generator is no fun. Sent from my TI-99/4a
On Feb 15, 2021, at 11:54 PM, Cory Sell via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Total population is a pretty big difference as you go north, as is how well infrastructure is actually prepared for snow/ice and cold temperatures in general.
I’ve been without power all day and have no doubt I’ll cross the 24-hour mark here in a handful of hours.
Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:42 PM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Cory Sell via NANOG wrote:
adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way.
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
On 2/16/21 3:05 AM, Jared Mauch wrote:
Almost exactly 4 years ago we were out up here in Michigan for over 120 hours after a wind storm took out power to 1 million homes. Large scale restoration takes time. When the load and supply are imbalanced it can make things worse as well.
I'm hoping things return to normal soon but also am reminded it can take some time.
We now have a large generator with automatic switchover after that event. Filling gas cans every 12 hours to feed the generator is no fun.
We use propane. It's less dense energy-wise than gasoline, but it's really easy to switch over. Mike
----- On Feb 16, 2021, at 6:28 AM, Michael Thomas mike@mtcc.com wrote:
We use propane. It's less dense energy-wise than gasoline, but it's really easy to switch over.
Why not use both? Plenty of generators that are dual fuel out there. Last year I converted my Duramax to dual fuel by replacing the carburator. Easy-peasy. Thanks, Sabri
On 2/16/21 3:19 PM, Sabri Berisha wrote:
----- On Feb 16, 2021, at 6:28 AM, Michael Thomas mike@mtcc.com wrote:
We use propane. It's less dense energy-wise than gasoline, but it's really easy to switch over. Why not use both? Plenty of generators that are dual fuel out there. Last year I converted my Duramax to dual fuel by replacing the carburator. Easy-peasy.
gasoline has a shelf life, though with PG&E that isn't a problem :/ but the larger issue is that i really would prefer not have a bunch of gasoline around. it's messier too in comparison to just switching a propane tank. we have like three or four 5 gallon tanks which we use in the mean time for bbq's, etc. we manage to run the things we need for about 24 hours on one tank. Mike
On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:49 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
sounds familiar, even connected to a much bigger grid http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Final-Root-Cause-Analysis-Mid-August-2020-Ext...
On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 8:50 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Cory Sell via NANOG wrote:
adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way.
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
Isn't that a result of ERCOT stubbornly refusing to interconnect with the rest of the national grid, out of an irrational fear of coming under federal regulation? I suspect that trying to be self-sufficient works most of the time--but when you get to the edges of the bell curve locally, your ability to be resilient and survive depends heavily upon your ability to be supported by others around you. This certainly holds true for individual humans; I suspect power grids aren't that different. Matt
On 2/16/21 07:49, Matthew Petach wrote:
Isn't that a result of ERCOT stubbornly refusing to interconnect with the rest of the national grid, out of an irrational fear of coming under federal regulation?
I suspect that trying to be self-sufficient works most of the time--but when you get to the edges of the bell curve locally, your ability to be resilient and survive depends heavily upon your ability to be supported by others around you. This certainly holds true for individual humans; I suspect power grids aren't that different.
If there was a state-wide blackout, they'd need to restart from the national grid anyway. Why not have some standing interconnection agreement with them anyway, that gets activated in cases such as these? Sorry, unfamiliar with U.S. politics in this regard, so just doing 1+1. Mark.
On 2/15/21 10:02 PM, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 2/16/21 07:49, Matthew Petach wrote:
Isn't that a result of ERCOT stubbornly refusing to interconnect with the rest of the national grid, out of an irrational fear of coming under federal regulation?
Yes. This has been widely documented in numerous articles, both very recently and previously.
I suspect that trying to be self-sufficient works most of the time--but when you get to the edges of the bell curve locally, your ability to be resilient and survive depends heavily upon your ability to be supported by others around you. This certainly holds true for individual humans; I suspect power grids aren't that different.
If there was a state-wide blackout, they'd need to restart from the national grid anyway. Why not have some standing interconnection agreement with them anyway, that gets activated in cases such as these?
Sorry, unfamiliar with U.S. politics in this regard, so just doing 1+1.
"Sorry, unfamiliar with U.S. politics in this regard, so just doing 1+1" You don't understand Texas politics relative to the United States at large. Which is fine, but this is a state that had deliberately prevented interconnects (see: ERCOT, above) into any extended national grid, principally to evade the resulting exposure to Federal regulation. Texas [politicians] are constantly threatening to secede. - John --
On 2/16/21 4:22 AM, John Sage wrote:
On 2/15/21 10:02 PM, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 2/16/21 07:49, Matthew Petach wrote:
Isn't that a result of ERCOT stubbornly refusing to interconnect with the rest of the national grid, out of an irrational fear of coming under federal regulation?
Yes. This has been widely documented in numerous articles, both very recently and previously.
As one example only, of many: "What went wrong with the Texas power grid?" Marcy de Luna, Amanda Drane, Houston Chronicle Feb. 15, 2021 Updated: Feb. 15, 2021 9:23 p.m. "Dan Woodfin, ERCOT’s senior director of system operations, said the rolling blackouts are taking more power offline for longer periods than ever before. An estimated 34,000 megawatts of power generation — more than a third of the system’s total generating capacity — had been knocked offline by the extreme winter weather amid soaring demand as residents crank up heating systems." . . . "Ed Hirs, an energy fellow in the Department of Economics at the University of Houston, blamed the failures on the state’s deregulated power system, which doesn’t provide power generators with the returns needed to invest in maintaining and improving power plants. “The ERCOT grid has collapsed in exactly the same manner as the old Soviet Union,” said Hirs. “It limped along on underinvestment and neglect until it finally broke under predictable circumstances." https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/Wholesale-power-pri... - John __
The professor has it right. Before the state privatized the grid and made ERCOT, we never had these problems. Every few years, these private companies complain they need a rate hike because they need a grant to ‘beef up’ the infrastructure and it’s granted although we seem to keep having this issue. I’m certain history will continue to repeat itself.
On Feb 16, 2021, at 06:32, John Sage <jsage@finchhaven.com> wrote:
On 2/16/21 4:22 AM, John Sage wrote:
On 2/15/21 10:02 PM, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 2/16/21 07:49, Matthew Petach wrote:
Isn't that a result of ERCOT stubbornly refusing to interconnect with the rest of the national grid, out of an irrational fear of coming under federal regulation?
Yes. This has been widely documented in numerous articles, both very recently and previously.
As one example only, of many:
"What went wrong with the Texas power grid?"
Marcy de Luna, Amanda Drane, Houston Chronicle
Feb. 15, 2021 Updated: Feb. 15, 2021 9:23 p.m.
"Dan Woodfin, ERCOT’s senior director of system operations, said the rolling blackouts are taking more power offline for longer periods than ever before. An estimated 34,000 megawatts of power generation — more than a third of the system’s total generating capacity — had been knocked offline by the extreme winter weather amid soaring demand as residents crank up heating systems."
. . .
"Ed Hirs, an energy fellow in the Department of Economics at the University of Houston, blamed the failures on the state’s deregulated power system, which doesn’t provide power generators with the returns needed to invest in maintaining and improving power plants.
“The ERCOT grid has collapsed in exactly the same manner as the old Soviet Union,” said Hirs. “It limped along on underinvestment and neglect until it finally broke under predictable circumstances."
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/Wholesale-power-pri...
- John __
On 2/16/21 17:45, JASON BOTHE via NANOG wrote:
The professor has it right. Before the state privatized the grid and made ERCOT, we never had these problems. Every few years, these private companies complain they need a rate hike because they need a grant to ‘beef up’ the infrastructure and it’s granted although we seem to keep having this issue. I’m certain history will continue to repeat itself.
Over here in South Africa, our power company does the exact same thing. The difference is that it is not private :-). Mark.
On 2/16/21 14:22, John Sage wrote:
You don't understand Texas politics relative to the United States at large.
I certainly do not :-).
Which is fine, but this is a state that had deliberately prevented interconnects (see: ERCOT, above) into any extended national grid, principally to evade the resulting exposure to Federal regulation.
Texas [politicians] are constantly threatening to secede.
Yes, finally read the history. Gives "community" a different perspective :-). Mark.
On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 08:02:38AM +0200, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 2/16/21 07:49, Matthew Petach wrote:
Isn't that a result of ERCOT stubbornly refusing to interconnect with the rest of the national grid, out of an irrational fear of coming under federal regulation?
I suspect that trying to be self-sufficient works most of the time--but when you get to the edges of the bell curve locally, your ability to be resilient and survive depends heavily upon your ability to be supported by others around you. This certainly holds true for individual humans; I suspect power grids aren't that different.
If there was a state-wide blackout, they'd need to restart from the national grid anyway.
The Texas Grid has black-start capability. In the event of a state-wide blackout, they would not restart from the Eastern or Western US Grid.
Why not have some standing interconnection agreement with them anyway, that gets activated in cases such as these?
They have 820MW of interconnection with the Eastern Interconnect (the Eastern US grid). During most of this, it's been moving nearly 820MW into Texas. (Three were power shortages and rolling blackouts in portions of the Eastern Interconnect also, although for much shorter windows of time. During those times, less power was flowing into Texas, presumably because the Eastern Interconnect didn't have it available (in the right places).) Connections are more expensive that just a transmission line, because you have to go AC-DC-AC (or have a rotary frequency converter).
Sorry, unfamiliar with U.S. politics in this regard, so just doing 1+1.
Three grids, Western, Eastern, and Texas. A GW or so of DC ties between the Eastern and Western; nothing between the Western and Texas (directly), and, as noted above, 880MW between the Eastern and Texas. (Very roughly, that's 2% of peak demand for the Texas grid.) Eastern and Western exist largely for technical reasons (too big to keep synchronized, at least without building a lot more ties between them). Texas is independent largely for political reasons. -- Brett
On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Sean Donelan wrote:
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/08/texplainer-why-does-texas-have-its-o... Going at it alone can be beneficial sometimes, sometimes it's not. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
Are the power lines buried like in Europe where I live? I really think using poles is crazy and global warming guarantees enough atmospheric turbulence to make it untenable. Florida is moving to bury power lines. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 9:06 AM To: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Sean Donelan wrote:
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/08/texplainer-why-does-texas-have-its-o... Going at it alone can be beneficial sometimes, sometimes it's not. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Rod Beck wrote:
Are the power lines buried like in Europe where I live?
Rolling blackouts in Texas (or elsewhere) are not caused by storm damage. Rolling blackouts are administrative actions (turn off power, turn on power) taken by the system operator. They can "turn on" the power after a rolling blackout with a switch because there is no damage to the outside plant. In California, they use rolling blackouts BEFORE wildfires to prevent power line sparking causing wildfires. Not because of damage to the outside plant. In Texas, they use rolling blackouts because they didn't have enough generation capacity online. Again, the rolling blackouts in Texas is not due to storm damage. Its because natural gas power generator plants froze, and Texas is an separate electric grid from the rest of North America due to political reasons. That's why the rolling blackouts stop at the Texas border (approximately). Chicago Illinois (3rd largest metro area) power plants haven't frozen, and can use power from states across the north-central US grid. Most of Texas is rural and cheap. Power lines are built above ground. Only in a few dense urban areas, i.e. downtown Dallas or downtown Houston, are power lines underground for aesthetic reasons.
----- On Feb 16, 2021, at 5:01 AM, Sean Donelan sean@donelan.com wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Rod Beck wrote:
Are the power lines buried like in Europe where I live?
They are not buried everywhere. They are buried in most western EU countries perhaps. But I invite you to go to Ferizaj, Kosovo, for example.
In California, they use rolling blackouts BEFORE wildfires to prevent power line sparking causing wildfires. Not because of damage to the outside plant. In Texas, they use rolling blackouts because they didn't have enough generation capacity online.
I do remember last September being threatened with rolling power outages as a result of the lack of capacity. Check this article in the Mercury News, for example: https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/09/06/california-grid-managers-watching-clo... Thanks, Sabri
It's cheaper to build 2x, 3x, 4x the aerial plant than to build 1x the underground plant. The actual cost per foot is more like 10x difference, but there are right of way, maintenance, etc. costs to factor in as well. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Beck" <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> To: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 6:05:41 AM Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts Are the power lines buried like in Europe where I live? I really think using poles is crazy and global warming guarantees enough atmospheric turbulence to make it untenable. Florida is moving to bury power lines. From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 9:06 AM To: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Sean Donelan wrote:
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/08/texplainer-why-does-texas-have-its-o... Going at it alone can be beneficial sometimes, sometimes it's not. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
What’s going on in Texas has nothing to do with power distribution. It has to do with ability to generate power. Robert DeVita Founder & CEO Mejeticks c. 469-441-8864 e. radevita@mejeticks.com ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+radevita=mejeticks.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 7:25:12 AM To: Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts It's cheaper to build 2x, 3x, 4x the aerial plant than to build 1x the underground plant. The actual cost per foot is more like 10x difference, but there are right of way, maintenance, etc. costs to factor in as well. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2I3MDg0ZDcyYzJkNjkxYjQ1IiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.I6gtKpQtZNWLIl1Z6yxbF_rlPqm-At__90A9H6s-3Ho&url=http%3A//www.ics-il.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png] <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2IyNTdlMjllOTk4ODdkMmI4IiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.ATsg4HQYQEWxDoKPamHE70Iu8iO1dQW0ElB0mtbURTE&url=https%3A//www.facebook.com/ICSIL> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png] <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2IzYTY4NzU3MjUxNWJhNGJhIiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.MwIiyrYIGmO1oKz1Bu2wQ4PD2-EMEoHuJD_T_ai9Ns8&url=https%3A//plus.google.com/%2BIntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png] <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2IzYTY4NzU3MjUxNWJhNGI4IiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.y3nqDtao4sOn9v6WiiQuS476O84PjJ5hnWlRCuNb8JU&url=https%3A//www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png] <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2IzYTY4NzU3MjUxNWJhNGI5IiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.8_PxcSoQWF7-kH3xaiZwFTBLlwZTPrsKwKu7gOj-xZM&url=https%3A//twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2I0NjA5OGE2NWU2MWVkM2RmIiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.cPhD7d7YBkO-rBJoIpJ0sjSHQyoDX0Ija9J9TjlsBgs&url=http%3A//www.midwest-ix.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png] <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2I0NjA5OGE2NWU2MWVkM2UwIiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.ilS2pubRRScMURqpaylptUFU4Q3HdNoIhc9782WazhY&url=https%3A//www.facebook.com/mdwestix> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png] <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2IyNTdlMjllOTk4ODdkMmJhIiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.hSSfJDVZ75azmzfJMjCK1lBuPv_KjWRXszTl3GJlaic&url=https%3A//www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png] <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2I3MDg0ZDcyYzJkNjkxYjQ0IiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.h9__DpyDKPQKuPnVyut_mqPH0Xe3zlx34wlE-XFQU7k&url=https%3A//twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2I3MDg0ZDcyYzJkNjkxYjQzIiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.cF4tLeYNUMqlju7N-nowJ6KtmKYxWkcnUN8rFM8zrX0&url=http%3A//www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png] <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2IyNTdlMjllOTk4ODdkMmI5IiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.FXvT-830FHIfnoKELAKl_NnxZIU91k2gcLkho6Yj7qI&url=https%3A//www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png] <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2JhNjdjZTMzMjE3NzRlMDkxIiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.7ab2OPCpILl8NPTPGDuMwhO-Q0kYvHY_4oXXv13JHlA&url=https%3A//www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ________________________________ From: "Rod Beck" <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> To: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 6:05:41 AM Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts Are the power lines buried like in Europe where I live? I really think using poles is crazy and global warming guarantees enough atmospheric turbulence to make it untenable. Florida is moving to bury power lines. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 9:06 AM To: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Sean Donelan wrote:
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/08/texplainer-why-does-texas-have-its-o... <https:/app.bitdam.com/api/v1.0/links/rewrite_click/?rewrite_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZXdyaXRlX2lkIjoiNjAyYmM4N2JhNjdjZTMzMjE3NzRlMDkwIiwidXJsIjoiIiwib3JnYW5pemF0aW9uX2lkIjoxNzgxfQ.5Z_OTfpyw2jHqy46cNDwvRdrD6kKPpvSYGWVq263S9s&url=https%3A//www.texastribune.org/2011/02/08/texplainer-why-does-texas-have-its-own-power-grid/> Going at it alone can be beneficial sometimes, sometimes it's not. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
Agreed. Well, or interconnection with other grids that *do* have available generation. :-) ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert DeVita" <radevita@mejeticks.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "Rod Beck" <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 7:30:50 AM Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts What’s going on in Texas has nothing to do with power distribution. It has to do with ability to generate power. Robert DeVita Founder & CEO Mejeticks c. 469-441-8864 e. radevita@mejeticks.com From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+radevita=mejeticks.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 7:25:12 AM To: Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts It's cheaper to build 2x, 3x, 4x the aerial plant than to build 1x the underground plant. The actual cost per foot is more like 10x difference, but there are right of way, maintenance, etc. costs to factor in as well. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Rod Beck" <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> To: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 6:05:41 AM Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts Are the power lines buried like in Europe where I live? I really think using poles is crazy and global warming guarantees enough atmospheric turbulence to make it untenable. Florida is moving to bury power lines. From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 9:06 AM To: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Sean Donelan wrote:
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/08/texplainer-why-does-texas-have-its-o... Going at it alone can be beneficial sometimes, sometimes it's not. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
Texas does have DC ties to other grids, there just isn't enough capacity there to really matter (820 MW total to the Eastern US grid). This is fairly standard though when you're on your own grid, UK and France have DC ties as well that run underneath the English Channel. ERCOT is using a little bit currently: http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/html/real_time_system_conditions.html On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 9:17 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Agreed.
Well, or interconnection with other grids that *do* have available generation. :-)
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Robert DeVita" <radevita@mejeticks.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "Rod Beck" < rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> *Cc: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Tuesday, February 16, 2021 7:30:50 AM *Subject: *Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
What’s going on in Texas has nothing to do with power distribution. It has to do with ability to generate power.
Robert DeVita Founder & CEO Mejeticks c. 469-441-8864 e. radevita@mejeticks.com ------------------------------ *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+radevita=mejeticks.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 16, 2021 7:25:12 AM *To:* Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> *Subject:* Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
It's cheaper to build 2x, 3x, 4x the aerial plant than to build 1x the underground plant.
The actual cost per foot is more like 10x difference, but there are right of way, maintenance, etc. costs to factor in as well.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
------------------------------ *From: *"Rod Beck" <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> *To: *"Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" < swmike@swm.pp.se> *Cc: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Tuesday, February 16, 2021 6:05:41 AM *Subject: *Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
Are the power lines buried like in Europe where I live?
I really think using poles is crazy and global warming guarantees enough atmospheric turbulence to make it untenable. Florida is moving to bury power lines.
------------------------------ *From: *NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, February 16, 2021 9:06 AM *To: *Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> *Cc: *nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> *Subject: *RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Sean Donelan wrote:
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/08/texplainer-why-does-texas-have-its-o...
Going at it alone can be beneficial sometimes, sometimes it's not.
-- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
-- Matt Erculiani ERCUL-ARIN
On Feb 16, 2021, at 8:25 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
It's cheaper to build 2x, 3x, 4x the aerial plant than to build 1x the underground plant.
The actual cost per foot is more like 10x difference, but there are right of way, maintenance, etc. costs to factor in as well.
Labor is something in 8x but the permit/engineering cost is usually the same per foot, but the make-ready on poles can make underground competitive or more like 1.5x when you fully bake the costs. Really depends on pole distances and quality. O&M long-term is lower on underground vs aerial. - Jared
It will happen because storm frequency and outages will rise throughout the century. It is a capital investment that will sharply reduce outages. Florida is on the verge of putting their long-haul power underground. Texas is primed for storms due to the high and growing humidity in the Gulf. Finally, capital costs - interest - is low. Both governments and big corporates pay very little to borrow so it is not onerous. May be it is time to make America great again. 😉 Nor does it have to be mandatory for all systems. But there should be at least one power network in the ground as well as one telco network. Regards, Roderick. ________________________________ From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 3:38 PM To: Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On Feb 16, 2021, at 8:25 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
It's cheaper to build 2x, 3x, 4x the aerial plant than to build 1x the underground plant.
The actual cost per foot is more like 10x difference, but there are right of way, maintenance, etc. costs to factor in as well.
Labor is something in 8x but the permit/engineering cost is usually the same per foot, but the make-ready on poles can make underground competitive or more like 1.5x when you fully bake the costs. Really depends on pole distances and quality. O&M long-term is lower on underground vs aerial. - Jared
I was referring to electrical distribution or transmission. Putting in a 2" conduit with some glass in it is a different beast than 34kv or 345kv lines. :-) ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared Mauch" <jared@puck.nether.net> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "Rod Beck" <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com>, nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 8:38:11 AM Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On Feb 16, 2021, at 8:25 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
It's cheaper to build 2x, 3x, 4x the aerial plant than to build 1x the underground plant.
The actual cost per foot is more like 10x difference, but there are right of way, maintenance, etc. costs to factor in as well.
Labor is something in 8x but the permit/engineering cost is usually the same per foot, but the make-ready on poles can make underground competitive or more like 1.5x when you fully bake the costs. Really depends on pole distances and quality. O&M long-term is lower on underground vs aerial. - Jared
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Rod Beck wrote:
Are the power lines buried like in Europe where I live?
I really think using poles is crazy and global warming guarantees enough atmospheric turbulence to make it untenable. Florida is moving to bury power lines.
Only 41% of European lines are underground [1]. Population density is higher in the UK, 280 per sq km, versus the US, 34 per sq km [2]. Netherlands: 423 per sq km Belgium: 376 per sq km Germany: 233 per sq km Switzerland: 208 per sq km Italy: 200 per sq km When population density is low, the cost to install buried lines does not make financial sense, even considering the outages. In major cities, lines are buried in the US. Granted, there are several US States that individually are similar to Europe: New Jersey: 467 per sq km Massachussetts: 331 per sq km New York: 161 per sq km (despite having NYC, largest city in the US) California: 95 per sq km (despite having LA, 2nd largest city in the US) Texas: 39 per sq km Buried lines makes sense where it makes sense. Comparing Europe to the US is way too broad, and I don't know where you live. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-05/why-europe-pays-less-than... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_populati...
________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 9:06 AM To: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Sean Donelan wrote:
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/08/texplainer-why-does-texas-have-its-o...
Going at it alone can be beneficial sometimes, sometimes it's not.
-- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 2021-02-17 at 00:27 -0500, Peter Beckman wrote:
Buried lines makes sense where it makes sense.
Aesthetically, burying lines always makes sense. Sadly not enough communities (and definitely too few governments) place any value on aesthetics at all. I've never heard anyone, ever, say "Golly, what a lovely profusion of cables this place has! How charmingly they subdivide the view of the sky! How delightfully they criss-cross every street and laneway!" I wrote this back in 2013. If I've missed anything, feel free to let me know off-list: https://biplane.com.au/blog/?p=276 Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer GPG fingerprint: 2561 E9EC D868 E73C 8AF1 49CF EE50 4B1D CCA1 5170 Old fingerprint: 8D08 9CAA 649A AFEF E862 062A 2E97 42D4 A2A0 616D
I have lived in France and now Hungary. I have never seen power lines above ground, but I have heard there are some in rural France. I disagree with your conclusion - essential infrastructure should be buried if possible. The US makes too many excuses for second rate performance. Level3 buried its infrastructure. This is a case where sacrificing short term profits for better long term performance is well worth it. Both California and Florida will end up burying their power lines. In California the wildfires make exposed cables just too dangerous and it is cheaper long term in Florida to bury than to repair pole infrastructure every year. Drama like Texas is not just an exception that will face away into memory. We Americans can expect to see the country pounded this century with storms and rising waters. NYC alone will need to spend over $150 billion to preserve its existing living zones from storm surges. I do acknowledge the cost may be too high for less densely populated ares, but at least some of the telecom and energy infrastructure linking large cities to each other and to energy generation and water supplies should better protected. This is just the beginning as any climate scientist will tell you. -R. ________________________________ From: Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 6:27 AM To: Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Cc: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com>; Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Rod Beck wrote:
Are the power lines buried like in Europe where I live?
I really think using poles is crazy and global warming guarantees enough atmospheric turbulence to make it untenable. Florida is moving to bury power lines.
Only 41% of European lines are underground [1]. Population density is higher in the UK, 280 per sq km, versus the US, 34 per sq km [2]. Netherlands: 423 per sq km Belgium: 376 per sq km Germany: 233 per sq km Switzerland: 208 per sq km Italy: 200 per sq km When population density is low, the cost to install buried lines does not make financial sense, even considering the outages. In major cities, lines are buried in the US. Granted, there are several US States that individually are similar to Europe: New Jersey: 467 per sq km Massachussetts: 331 per sq km New York: 161 per sq km (despite having NYC, largest city in the US) California: 95 per sq km (despite having LA, 2nd largest city in the US) Texas: 39 per sq km Buried lines makes sense where it makes sense. Comparing Europe to the US is way too broad, and I don't know where you live. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-05/why-europe-pays-less-than... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_populati...
________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 9:06 AM To: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Sean Donelan wrote:
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/08/texplainer-why-does-texas-have-its-o...
Going at it alone can be beneficial sometimes, sometimes it's not.
-- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Humm sorry, there are a lot of power lines which are not buried in France and in Europe. High, medium and low voltage power lines, even if there is a willingness to slowly bury them over the time Ge
Le 17 févr. 2021 à 10:17, Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> a écrit :
I have lived in France and now Hungary. I have never seen power lines above ground, but I have heard there are some in rural France.
I have lived in France and now Hungary. I have never seen power lines above ground, but I have heard there are some in rural France.
You'll find them even in Budapest: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.4720119,19.1245507,3a,75y,127.74h,82.44t/dat... https://www.google.com/maps/@47.4326756,19.0117106,3a,75y,258.31h,97.99t/dat... https://www.google.com/maps/@47.4530487,19.1693045,3a,75y,202.63h,100.06t/da... András
Buried high voltage lines require expensive/complex insulation (oil, etc). It's really expensive to build and to maintain these at enormous scale like the continental USA. Not saying it's not possible, but definitely challenging. Repairing damage to these lines is a lot more complicated than splicing fiber (freeze plugs, huge holes in the ground, etc). Most HV aerial lines can be repaired online with helicopters, whereas the stuff in the ground needs to come offline for any sort of repair involving the conductors. I think because one USA state is the size of an entire EU country (or larger) then your HV lines would have to span multiple states (several countries in Europe), it'd be an insane effort to build and maintain these for 50+ years. ----- Original message ----- From: Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> To: Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 03:17 I have lived in France and now Hungary. I have never seen power lines above ground, but I have heard there are some in rural France. I disagree with your conclusion - essential infrastructure should be buried if possible. The US makes too many excuses for second rate performance. Level3 buried its infrastructure. This is a case where sacrificing short term profits for better long term performance is well worth it.
And by the way, your 41% figure is misleading because it is an average over a continent where Western Europe has twice the standard of living as the East. Rich side of the tracks, poor side of the tracks. In Germany about 80% of power cables are buried. Nearly 87% of low voltage cables are buried and the German grid virtually never goes down despite all that flaky and unpredictable wind and solar power. Yes, population density is very high in Germany, but the reason power cables are above ground in Eastern Eastern is low GDP. And those high percentages buried in Western Europe are remarkable when you consider Europe is not subject to severe storms like the States. There are no severe storms comparable to the Atlantic disturbances or even this cold spell. As I said, it is "time to make America great again". Capital investment, not big cars. 😉 ________________________________ From: Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 6:27 AM To: Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Cc: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com>; Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Rod Beck wrote:
Are the power lines buried like in Europe where I live?
I really think using poles is crazy and global warming guarantees enough atmospheric turbulence to make it untenable. Florida is moving to bury power lines.
Only 41% of European lines are underground [1]. Population density is higher in the UK, 280 per sq km, versus the US, 34 per sq km [2]. Netherlands: 423 per sq km Belgium: 376 per sq km Germany: 233 per sq km Switzerland: 208 per sq km Italy: 200 per sq km When population density is low, the cost to install buried lines does not make financial sense, even considering the outages. In major cities, lines are buried in the US. Granted, there are several US States that individually are similar to Europe: New Jersey: 467 per sq km Massachussetts: 331 per sq km New York: 161 per sq km (despite having NYC, largest city in the US) California: 95 per sq km (despite having LA, 2nd largest city in the US) Texas: 39 per sq km Buried lines makes sense where it makes sense. Comparing Europe to the US is way too broad, and I don't know where you live. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-05/why-europe-pays-less-than... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_populati...
________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 9:06 AM To: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Sean Donelan wrote:
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/08/texplainer-why-does-texas-have-its-o...
Going at it alone can be beneficial sometimes, sometimes it's not.
-- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The price of electricity is a major component of the decision where data centers operators choose to build large data centers. Total electric price to end consumer (residential). Although industrial electric prices are usually lower, its easier to compare residential prices across countries. Europe (Residential): Lowest Bulgaria: EU 9.97 cents/kWh (USD 12.0 cents/kWh) Highest Germany: EU 30.88 cents/kWh (USD 37.33 cents/kWh) Average: EU 20.5 cents/kWh (USD 25.2 cents/kWh) USA (Residential): Lowest Idaho: USD 9.67 cents/kWh (EU 8.3 cents/kWh) Highest Hawaii: USD 28.84 cents/kWh (EU 24.07 cents/kWh) Average: USD 13.25 cents/kWh (EU 10.79 cents/kWh) Texas is slightly below the US average at Texas: USD 12.2 cents/kWh (EU 9.96 cents/kWh)
On Feb 17, 2021, at 9:15 AM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
USA (Residential): Lowest Idaho: USD 9.67 cents/kWh (EU 8.3 cents/kWh) Highest Hawaii: USD 28.84 cents/kWh (EU 24.07 cents/kWh)
Not sure where you’re finding those numbers but I believe they are not accurate. https://neo.ne.gov/programs/stats/inf/204.htm Heck, here in Lincoln, Nebraska, our rates are 8.01c per kWh in the summer and 5.48c in the winter. Maybe that’s one reason why an as-yet-unnamed entity is putting a massive datacenter here in the next couple of years. Dangit I wish I knew who it was as I want to apply there once it gets going. https://journalstar.com/business/local/company-behind-proposed-lincoln-data-... ---- Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 andy@andyring.com “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
Not sure where you’re finding those numbers but I believe they are not accurate.
U.S. Energy Information Administration (part of the Department of Energy) https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a
On 2/17/21 8:07 AM, Sean Donelan wrote:
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
Not sure where you’re finding those numbers but I believe they are not accurate.
U.S. Energy Information Administration (part of the Department of Energy)
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a
This article is an interest description of Texas electricity pricing for one provider and for the market in general: "Some retail power companies in Texas are making an unusual plea to their customers amid a deep freeze that has sent electricity prices skyrocketing: Please, leave us. Power supplier, Griddy, told all 29,000 of its customers that they should switch to another provider as spot electricity prices soared to as high as $9,000 a megawatt-hour. Griddy’s customers are fully exposed to the real-time swings in wholesale power markets, so those who don’t leave soon will face extraordinarily high electricity bills." The catch: "Hector Torres, an energy trader in Texas, who is a Griddy customer himself, said he tried to switch services over the long weekend but couldn’t find a company willing to take him until Wednesday, when the weather is forecast to turn warmer." https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-retailer-g... - John --
It might not be an easy fix in the moment, but in the long run, buy a generator and install a propane tank. When power prices spike to insane levels like this, just flip your transfer switch over and run off propane. When utility power becomes cheaper, switch back to the grid. Maybe some sort of Raspberry Pi to monitor the current prices and do the transfer automatically. (language warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz7IPTf1uts) Protip: If you're blacked out, it doesn't matter what the price of power is. -A On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 8:47 AM John Sage <jsage@finchhaven.com> wrote:
On 2/17/21 8:07 AM, Sean Donelan wrote:
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
Not sure where you’re finding those numbers but I believe they are not accurate.
U.S. Energy Information Administration (part of the Department of Energy)
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a
This article is an interest description of Texas electricity pricing for one provider and for the market in general:
"Some retail power companies in Texas are making an unusual plea to their customers amid a deep freeze that has sent electricity prices skyrocketing: Please, leave us.
Power supplier, Griddy, told all 29,000 of its customers that they should switch to another provider as spot electricity prices soared to as high as $9,000 a megawatt-hour. Griddy’s customers are fully exposed to the real-time swings in wholesale power markets, so those who don’t leave soon will face extraordinarily high electricity bills."
The catch:
"Hector Torres, an energy trader in Texas, who is a Griddy customer himself, said he tried to switch services over the long weekend but couldn’t find a company willing to take him until Wednesday, when the weather is forecast to turn warmer."
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-retailer-g...
- John --
On 2/17/21 9:40 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG wrote:
It might not be an easy fix in the moment, but in the long run, buy a generator and install a propane tank. When power prices spike to insane levels like this, just flip your transfer switch over and run off propane. When utility power becomes cheaper, switch back to the grid.
Maybe some sort of Raspberry Pi to monitor the current prices and do the transfer automatically. (language warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz7IPTf1uts <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz7IPTf1uts>)
Protip: If you're blacked out, it doesn't matter what the price of power is.
We just run extension cords and don't have a transfer switch. It's pretty surprising what you can run on about a kw. A gallon propane tank lasts close to 24 for us. Mike
Hold on.. Math doesnt add-up here. Are you telling me that a gallon propane tank (3.8l) can last 24 hours for about 1000W power generation. Are you sure? I could belive for 6 hours... maybe 8.. not 24 hours. So either you are using up 200-300W.. or you have superior power generator. Can you share what are you using? ---------- Original message ---------- From: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 09:56:06 -0800 We just run extension cords and don't have a transfer switch. It's pretty surprising what you can run on about a kw. A gallon propane tank lasts close to 24 for us. Mike
On 2/17/21 1:23 PM, borg@uu3.net wrote:
Hold on.. Math doesnt add-up here. Are you telling me that a gallon propane tank (3.8l) can last 24 hours for about 1000W power generation. Are you sure? I could belive for 6 hours... maybe 8.. not 24 hours. So either you are using up 200-300W.. or you have superior power generator. Can you share what are you using?
Sorry I noticed my error right after I hit send. I meant a 5 gallon tank, not 1. Inverter generators are definitely worth the extra cost though. Mike
---------- Original message ----------
From: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 09:56:06 -0800
We just run extension cords and don't have a transfer switch. It's pretty surprising what you can run on about a kw. A gallon propane tank lasts close to 24 for us.
Mike
On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:46 AM John Sage <jsage@finchhaven.com> wrote:
This article is an interest description of Texas electricity pricing for one provider and for the market in general: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-retailer-g...
That is far from the market in general. Most people use a fixed rate plan (can easily find one without rebate for <10c/kwh after taxes & fees). The customer would have to make an explicit decision to pick a variable/market rate plan (excluded by default on http://powertochoose.org/) with higher risk and cheaper electricity when the wholesale price is low. http://www.puc.texas.gov/consumer/facts/factsheets/elecfacts/Electricplans.p...
Changing Rate (Variable) Plans have rates per kWh that can vary according to a method determined solely by the provider and may be dependent on market changes and other exceptions beyond the provider's control Market Rate (Indexed) Plans have rates per kWh that can vary according to pre-defined publicly available indices or information and other exceptions beyond the provider's control
The highest the price can go to is $9/kWh (which has only ever happened 0.005% of the time.) Most of the time though, 96.9% to be exact, it is below the Texas Average of 6.8¢/kWh https://www.griddy.com/texas/learn-more#learn-pricing
The issue is that while there are lots of information out there detailing the risks of variable rate supply plans, the majority of consumers are not equipped to properly understand that risk; these are complex markets in the best of times. Many of these companies are also borderline predatory in how they market their services. It's the standard model you see in many industries; highlight the savings, fine print or hide the risk, and then when the consumer gets screwed , point and say 'well they should have understood what they signed up for!'. That's complete trash when it comes to life critical utilities. On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 7:25 PM Yang Yu <yang.yu.list@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:46 AM John Sage <jsage@finchhaven.com> wrote:
This article is an interest description of Texas electricity pricing for one provider and for the market in general:
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-retailer-g...
That is far from the market in general.
Most people use a fixed rate plan (can easily find one without rebate for <10c/kwh after taxes & fees). The customer would have to make an explicit decision to pick a variable/market rate plan (excluded by default on http://powertochoose.org/) with higher risk and cheaper electricity when the wholesale price is low.
http://www.puc.texas.gov/consumer/facts/factsheets/elecfacts/Electricplans.p...
Changing Rate (Variable) Plans have rates per kWh that can vary according to a method determined solely by the provider and may be dependent on market changes and other exceptions beyond the provider's control Market Rate (Indexed) Plans have rates per kWh that can vary according to pre-defined publicly available indices or information and other exceptions beyond the provider's control
The highest the price can go to is $9/kWh (which has only ever happened 0.005% of the time.) Most of the time though, 96.9% to be exact, it is below the Texas Average of 6.8¢/kWh https://www.griddy.com/texas/learn-more#learn-pricing
----- On Feb 17, 2021, at 8:07 AM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
Not sure where you’re finding those numbers but I believe they are not accurate. U.S. Energy Information Administration (part of the Department of Energy)
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a According to their table, CA residential prices are 22.26 cent/kwh. Right.
It's easy to get to low numbers if you don't take into account the number of subsidized customers, and all of the other fees that crooks at PG&E add to their pricing. Here is a more accurate picture, taken directly from my energy bill. I have solar, so I picked a month that had little "return" traffic. With apologies to those on the list who still use mutt/pine etc. But wait, there's more! This does not include the Silicon Valley Clean Energy Electric Generation Charges. So I am paying a grand total of $239.14 for 656.928 KwH of electricity. That makes 36.4 cents per KwH. It gets even better. For a month in the summer: Do you see that? My solar panels produced more power than I used, and I'm *still* paying PG&E. This (admittedly anecdotal) evidence clearly proves that the Dept of Energy's table is cherry-picked bollocks. My rate is 163% of their "average". Thanks, Sabri
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021, Sabri Berisha wrote:
This (admittedly anecdotal) evidence clearly proves that the Dept of Energy's table is cherry-picked bollocks. My rate is 163% of their "average".
As always, you are free to collect data and produce your own table covering electric prices for the entire nation, state and county. Same critiques apply to the cost of living index, unemployment index, etc, etc, etc. Statistics suck, until you attempt to produce your own.
On Feb 17, 2021, at 1:11 PM, Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net> wrote:
On Feb 17, 2021, at 7:41 PM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote: Statistics suck, until you attempt to produce your own.
I don’t even know what word you replace “suck” with, when you’re doing it yourself. What’s suck cubed?
-Bill
Well, on the other hand, 47 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot. -Andy
On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:34:35AM -0800, Sabri Berisha wrote:
With apologies to those on the list who still use mutt/pine etc.
1. "still"? Competent professionals with security awareness use text-only email clients as a matter of basic self-defense. I trust it's obvious why those of us who are responsible for systems/networks/data need to protect ourselves in order to protect the resources we run. 2. It's pretty easy to handle attachments gracefully while using mutt. By default it checks ~/.mailcap, and in that file one can specify external programs to handle various attachment types, e.g.: text/html; w3m -dump -T text/html %s | less application/pdf; /usr/bin/evince %s Of course this needs to be done carefully, since it subjects the user to attacks against those applications carried via attachments, but that's where judicious choices on the part of the user come in -- choices as in "which attachment types, which applications, and whether or not to exercise this capability on a per-message basis". ---rsk
Do you see that? My solar panels produced more power than I used, and I'm *still* paying PG&E.
PG&E owns and must maintain the infrastructure to deliver you power. They also had to install a different (and more expensive) type of meter on your home to accommodate you feeding your excess energy back to the grid. Shouldn't they be compensated for that?
This (admittedly anecdotal) evidence clearly proves that the Dept of Energy's table is cherry-picked bollocks. My rate is 163% of their "average".
Well since the value quoted is an average, it stands to reason that people will be both above and below the stated value. You happen to be living in an area that's on the expensive side. On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 7:00 PM Sabri Berisha <sabri@cluecentral.net> wrote:
----- On Feb 17, 2021, at 8:07 AM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
Not sure where you’re finding those numbers but I believe they are not accurate.
U.S. Energy Information Administration (part of the Department of Energy)
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a
According to their table, CA residential prices are 22.26 cent/kwh. Right.
It's easy to get to low numbers if you don't take into account the number of subsidized customers, and all of the other fees that crooks at PG&E add to their pricing. Here is a more accurate picture, taken directly from my energy bill. I have solar, so I picked a month that had little "return" traffic.
With apologies to those on the list who still use mutt/pine etc.
But wait, there's more! This does not include the Silicon Valley Clean Energy Electric Generation Charges.
So I am paying a grand total of $239.14 for 656.928 KwH of electricity.
That makes 36.4 cents per KwH.
It gets even better. For a month in the summer:
Do you see that? My solar panels produced more power than I used, and I'm *still* paying PG&E.
This (admittedly anecdotal) evidence clearly proves that the Dept of Energy's table is cherry-picked bollocks. My rate is 163% of their "average".
Thanks,
Sabri
On 2/17/21 7:15 AM, Sean Donelan wrote:
The price of electricity is a major component of the decision where data centers operators choose to build large data centers.
Total electric price to end consumer (residential). Although industrial electric prices are usually lower, its easier to compare residential prices across countries.
Europe (Residential): Lowest Bulgaria: EU 9.97 cents/kWh (USD 12.0 cents/kWh) Highest Germany: EU 30.88 cents/kWh (USD 37.33 cents/kWh)
Average: EU 20.5 cents/kWh (USD 25.2 cents/kWh)
USA (Residential): Lowest Idaho: USD 9.67 cents/kWh (EU 8.3 cents/kWh) Highest Hawaii: USD 28.84 cents/kWh (EU 24.07 cents/kWh)
Average: USD 13.25 cents/kWh (EU 10.79 cents/kWh)
Texas is slightly below the US average at Texas: USD 12.2 cents/kWh (EU 9.96 cents/kWh)
here in California it's like $.20 - $.30 with pg&e. i recently looked up Oregon and it was like $.03 which is why you probably see data centers being built by The Dalles and Prineville. Mike
Using residential pricing for a data center is a bit odd, isn't? Remember, European businesses can reclaim VAT and a European data center would access much lower tariffs than a European household. And residential pricing includes VAT. Germany is an outlier because about 50% of the 30 cents is taxes and surcharges. ________________________________ From: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 4:15 PM To: Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts The price of electricity is a major component of the decision where data centers operators choose to build large data centers. Total electric price to end consumer (residential). Although industrial electric prices are usually lower, its easier to compare residential prices across countries. Europe (Residential): Lowest Bulgaria: EU 9.97 cents/kWh (USD 12.0 cents/kWh) Highest Germany: EU 30.88 cents/kWh (USD 37.33 cents/kWh) Average: EU 20.5 cents/kWh (USD 25.2 cents/kWh) USA (Residential): Lowest Idaho: USD 9.67 cents/kWh (EU 8.3 cents/kWh) Highest Hawaii: USD 28.84 cents/kWh (EU 24.07 cents/kWh) Average: USD 13.25 cents/kWh (EU 10.79 cents/kWh) Texas is slightly below the US average at Texas: USD 12.2 cents/kWh (EU 9.96 cents/kWh)
The numbers below are not correct. Here in GA, we pay much lower rates than those listed, somewhere around 7 cents/kwh after taxes. https://www.georgiapower.com/residential/billing-and-rate-plans/pricing-and- rate-plans/residential-service.html From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces+milt=net2atlanta.com@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Rod Beck Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 12:43 PM To: Sean Donelan Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts Using residential pricing for a data center is a bit odd, isn't? Remember, European businesses can reclaim VAT and a European data center would access much lower tariffs than a European household. And residential pricing includes VAT. Germany is an outlier because about 50% of the 30 cents is taxes and surcharges. _____ From: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 4:15 PM To: Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts The price of electricity is a major component of the decision where data centers operators choose to build large data centers. Total electric price to end consumer (residential). Although industrial electric prices are usually lower, its easier to compare residential prices across countries. Europe (Residential): Lowest Bulgaria: EU 9.97 cents/kWh (USD 12.0 cents/kWh) Highest Germany: EU 30.88 cents/kWh (USD 37.33 cents/kWh) Average: EU 20.5 cents/kWh (USD 25.2 cents/kWh) USA (Residential): Lowest Idaho: USD 9.67 cents/kWh (EU 8.3 cents/kWh) Highest Hawaii: USD 28.84 cents/kWh (EU 24.07 cents/kWh) Average: USD 13.25 cents/kWh (EU 10.79 cents/kWh) Texas is slightly below the US average at Texas: USD 12.2 cents/kWh (EU 9.96 cents/kWh)
Using the sample bill on the GA power website you linked, I see a bottom line price of $76.17 for 606 kWh delivered to the customer. That is effectively 12.57 cents per kWh. Utilities (both investor owned and coops) have a multitude of ways of hiding the effective price in a variety of fixed and variable fees not included in the nominal 'energy' fee. These include mandatory fixed connection fees and also fuel cost recovery fees that are tied to consumption. On Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 12:01 Milt Aitken <milt@net2atlanta.com> wrote:
The numbers below are not correct.
Here in GA, we pay much lower rates than those listed, somewhere around 7 cents/kwh after taxes.
https://www.georgiapower.com/residential/billing-and-rate-plans/pricing-and-...
*From:* NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces+milt=net2atlanta.com@nanog.org] *On Behalf Of *Rod Beck *Sent:* Wednesday, February 17, 2021 12:43 PM *To:* Sean Donelan *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org *Subject:* Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
Using residential pricing for a data center is a bit odd, isn't? Remember, European businesses can reclaim VAT and a European data center would access much lower tariffs than a European household. And residential pricing includes VAT. Germany is an outlier because about 50% of the 30 cents is taxes and surcharges.
------------------------------
*From:* Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 17, 2021 4:15 PM *To:* Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> *Subject:* Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
The price of electricity is a major component of the decision where data centers operators choose to build large data centers.
Total electric price to end consumer (residential). Although industrial electric prices are usually lower, its easier to compare residential prices across countries.
Europe (Residential): Lowest Bulgaria: EU 9.97 cents/kWh (USD 12.0 cents/kWh) Highest Germany: EU 30.88 cents/kWh (USD 37.33 cents/kWh)
Average: EU 20.5 cents/kWh (USD 25.2 cents/kWh)
USA (Residential): Lowest Idaho: USD 9.67 cents/kWh (EU 8.3 cents/kWh) Highest Hawaii: USD 28.84 cents/kWh (EU 24.07 cents/kWh)
Average: USD 13.25 cents/kWh (EU 10.79 cents/kWh)
Texas is slightly below the US average at Texas: USD 12.2 cents/kWh (EU 9.96 cents/kWh)
----- On Feb 17, 2021, at 11:21 AM, nanog <nanog@nanog.org> wrote: Hi,
Using the sample bill on the GA power website you linked, I see a bottom line price of $76.17 for 606 kWh delivered to the customer. That is effectively 12.57 cents per kWh.
Utilities (both investor owned and coops) have a multitude of ways of hiding the effective price in a variety of fixed and variable fees not included in the nominal 'energy' fee. These include mandatory fixed connection fees and also fuel cost recovery fees that are tied to consumption.
Exactly. In a message earlier today which is held and presumably lost due to moderation, I shared screenshots of an actual bill of mine here in California. Long story short, using that bill I show that I paid a grand total of $239.14 for 656.928 KwH of electricity. That makes 36.4 cents per KwH. In addition to that, I also shared another bill, where I paid $2.63 for the privilige of providing the net with 31.993 KwH of energy. That's right. My solar panels produced more power than I consumed and I still sponsored the crooks at PG&E. Utility companies are worse than airlines when it comes to hidden fees and surcharges. They know we have no choice. The only reason I want more solar panels is to give a bigger middle finger to PG&E. Nothing is a better motivator to go green than to see PG&E go bankrupt. It's a sad state of affairs when the disgust for the utility company's deceptive practices somehow outweighs the need to save the planet. Yet here we are. Thanks, Sabri
Unless you have storage, you are using the utility for services. It is no realistic to assume that they will do net metering forever, it simply does not allow them to fund the distribution network. I honestly think the current rates for solar in-feed at places like Hawaiian electric are more fair to all parties, you get power at retail rates and send it back at about half the retail rate. This encourages battery storage adoption and actually funds the distribution network. From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+john=vanoppen.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Sabri Berisha Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 11:43 AM To: Haudy Kazemi <kaze0010@umn.edu> Cc: nanog <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts ----- On Feb 17, 2021, at 11:21 AM, nanog <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote: Hi, Using the sample bill on the GA power website you linked, I see a bottom line price of $76.17 for 606 kWh delivered to the customer. That is effectively 12.57 cents per kWh. Utilities (both investor owned and coops) have a multitude of ways of hiding the effective price in a variety of fixed and variable fees not included in the nominal 'energy' fee. These include mandatory fixed connection fees and also fuel cost recovery fees that are tied to consumption. Exactly. In a message earlier today which is held and presumably lost due to moderation, I shared screenshots of an actual bill of mine here in California. Long story short, using that bill I show that I paid a grand total of $239.14 for 656.928 KwH of electricity. That makes 36.4 cents per KwH. In addition to that, I also shared another bill, where I paid $2.63 for the privilige of providing the net with 31.993 KwH of energy. That's right. My solar panels produced more power than I consumed and I still sponsored the crooks at PG&E. Utility companies are worse than airlines when it comes to hidden fees and surcharges. They know we have no choice. The only reason I want more solar panels is to give a bigger middle finger to PG&E. Nothing is a better motivator to go green than to see PG&E go bankrupt. It's a sad state of affairs when the disgust for the utility company's deceptive practices somehow outweighs the need to save the planet. Yet here we are. Thanks, Sabri
Well, my house isn’t on GPC, but I wish it was. Mine is on a coop. My office is on the same coop and I’m billed at a higher rate for business. The bill arrived today. $391.26 got me 3459kwh. That is 11.3cents/kwh net for business power from Cobb EMC, who charges a good bit more than GPC (they buy a lot of their power from GPC). N the past, I’ve had GPC bills from customers’ homes that net to about 7.5 cents/kwh. From: Sabri Berisha [mailto:sabri@cluecentral.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 2:43 PM To: Haudy Kazemi Cc: Milt Aitken; nanog Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts ----- On Feb 17, 2021, at 11:21 AM, nanog <nanog@nanog.org> wrote: Hi, Using the sample bill on the GA power website you linked, I see a bottom line price of $76.17 for 606 kWh delivered to the customer. That is effectively 12.57 cents per kWh. Utilities (both investor owned and coops) have a multitude of ways of hiding the effective price in a variety of fixed and variable fees not included in the nominal 'energy' fee. These include mandatory fixed connection fees and also fuel cost recovery fees that are tied to consumption. Exactly. In a message earlier today which is held and presumably lost due to moderation, I shared screenshots of an actual bill of mine here in California. Long story short, using that bill I show that I paid a grand total of $239.14 for 656.928 KwH of electricity. That makes 36.4 cents per KwH. In addition to that, I also shared another bill, where I paid $2.63 for the privilige of providing the net with 31.993 KwH of energy. That's right. My solar panels produced more power than I consumed and I still sponsored the crooks at PG&E. Utility companies are worse than airlines when it comes to hidden fees and surcharges. They know we have no choice. The only reason I want more solar panels is to give a bigger middle finger to PG&E. Nothing is a better motivator to go green than to see PG&E go bankrupt. It's a sad state of affairs when the disgust for the utility company's deceptive practices somehow outweighs the need to save the planet. Yet here we are. Thanks, Sabri
On 18/02/2021 7:54 am, Milt Aitken wrote:
The bill arrived today. $391.26 got me 3459kwh. That is 11.3cents/kwh net for business power from Cobb EMC, who charges a good bit more than GPC (they buy a lot of their power from GPC). N the past, I’ve had GPC bills from customers’ homes that net to about 7.5 cents/kwh.
Try paying for electricity in South Australia.. its around $0.34/kwh (plus %10 tax). We have a regime where essentially those without solar are paying for those with. South Australia too had a complete power grid failure in 2016. Regardless of the ample coal supply the state has, we had Power stations knocked down for green sources, like wind and solar. During the storm, we had a cascading transmission network failure with 23 pylons taken out which effected our supply from other Australian states.. And the lights went dark, statewide. Its 38°C here today (100°F). Thaw out Texas.
As I mentioned I used residential pricing because its easier to find. Getting industrial pricing is more difficult because its often viewed as proprietary secret information with particular customers. Its more difficult to get industrial pricing across all countries (and states in the USA). Then people would say that industrial pricing isn't comparable because it includes discounts, such as load shedding during peak usage. So I used residential pricing. But I would love if you could produce a report on industrial electric pricing around the world, for free of course. Germany is recouping the cost of undergrounding HV transmission lines (and other political choices) through those surcharges, i.e. there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. The problems with the Texas eletric grid is really a market arbitrage failure. The decision makers like to blame it on "unforseeable events." Just ask the Harvard professor which created it. Storm damage doesn't stop at state borders. On Wed, 17 Feb 2021, Rod Beck wrote:
Using residential pricing for a data center is a bit odd, isn't? Remember, European businesses can reclaim VAT and a European data center would access much lower tariffs than a European household. And residential pricing includes VAT. Germany is an outlier because about 50% of the 30 cents is taxes and surcharges.
On 2021-02-17, at 19:36, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
undergrounding HV transmission lines
That’s not how it works. In Germany, the majority of rural area HV transmission is above ground, for reasons that have been mentioned here. If we have significant power outages (once-in-a-decade events), they are usually unforeseen damage to those (e.g., extreme icing rain in the 2005 event [1]). But the distribution network is underground, no poles in residential areas (same for phone/internet). Yes, our pricing structure is different from the US, but that ist mostly unrelated. We do like reliable power (and phone systems) over here, by the way. (As Lenin said, communism is electrification plus soviet rule. We got rid of soviet rule :-) Regulation that gets results is good.) The nominal price of power you can’t get is pretty irrelevant, anyway :-) Grüße, Carsten [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnsterl%C3%A4nder_Schneechaos#Stromausfa...
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021, Carsten Bormann wrote:
That’s not how it works.
https://www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Artikel/Energy/electricity-grids-of-the-fut... Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy English translation [...] The Federal Government has put the policies in place for expanding the grid more quickly and gaining public acceptance for it. Following the agreement within the governing coalition in July 2015, the cabinet gave the go-ahead in October 2015 for an increased use of underground DC cables (in German). On 3 December 2015, the Bundestag adopted the draft legislation, as amended by the coalition party groups, and the bill passed the Bundesrat on 18 December 2015. The new rules entered into force at the turn of the year 2015/2016. In future, priority will be given to building the new electricity highways (the HVDC transmission lines) as underground rather than overhead powerlines. This applies in particular to the large transmission lines running from north to south such as 'SuedLink' or 'SuedOstLink'. In general, overhead DC powerlines are to be prohibited in places where people live. They will only be used in exceptional cases, for example in areas where nature conservation interests are identified or where existing powerlines can be used without major impact to the environment. Overhead powerlines may also be used if local authorities specifically request these powerlines in order to meet local needs. [...]
Hi Sean,
On 17. Feb 2021, at 21:58, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021, Carsten Bormann wrote:
That’s not how it works.
https://www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Artikel/Energy/electricity-grids-of-the-fut...
Yes. This is fully consistent with what I said. This is about the future, I was talking about reality.
The Federal Government has put the policies in place for expanding the grid more quickly and gaining public acceptance for it. Following the agreement within the governing coalition in July 2015, the cabinet gave the go-ahead in October 2015 for an increased use of underground DC cables (in German). On 3 December 2015, the Bundestag adopted the draft legislation, as amended by the coalition party groups, and the bill passed the Bundesrat on 18 December 2015. The new rules entered into force at the turn of the year 2015/2016.
OK, so 5 years ago the policy for “increased use” of buried cable went into force. Guess how many cable routes have been completed since… [1] (You’ll like the map on page 9, AFAICT 6 of the 43 projects sparsely touching that page use buried cable at least in part.)
In future, priority will be given to building the new electricity highways (the HVDC transmission lines) as underground rather than overhead powerlines. This applies in particular to the large transmission lines running from north to south such as 'SuedLink' or 'SuedOstLink'.
This is what this legislation is about. Lots of “renewable energy” is generated in Northern Germany. The biggest consumer pigs are in Southern Germany. So we’d need North-South power transmission, but creating working long lines is a matter of decades.
In general, overhead DC powerlines are to be prohibited in places where people live. They will only be used in exceptional cases, for example in areas where nature conservation interests are identified or where existing powerlines can be used without major impact to the environment. Overhead powerlines may also be used if local authorities specifically request these powerlines in order to meet local needs.
Here you can see that these are mostly political statements: The people who want green energy are also often the ones that oppose building the infrastructure for it. Burying the cables will put them out of sight. I actually tend to believe that buried HVDC is the future of long-distance power transmission. We might be able to pull off that this transitions from a niche technology to the mainstream, like we did with photovoltaics (at the cost of 200 G€). Let’s see... Grüße, Carsten [1]: https://data.netzausbau.de/Vorhaben/Monitoring/Monitoring_2020-Q3_print.pdf
On 2/17/21 2:37 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
I actually tend to believe that buried HVDC is the future of long-distance power transmission. We might be able to pull off that this transitions from a niche technology to the mainstream, like we did with photovoltaics (at the cost of 200 G€). Let’s see...
I wonder what a world with 5V DC distributed within the house would look like. All of those power adapters are both ugly and a PITA. Of course that wouldn't have to come in from the grid, but still. I found a powerstrip which has a couple of USB slots in it and it's very nice. It also allows the AC plugs to be rotated which is nice for the remaining adapters. Mike
True, Sean, but Texas has its own ISO. The counterpart wouldn’t be “Delaware has rolling blackouts”, but “The Eastern ISO has following blackouts”. Sent from my iPad
On Feb 15, 2021, at 8:49 PM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Cory Sell via NANOG wrote: adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way.
Strange the massive shortages and failures are only in one state.
The extreme cold weather extends northwards across many states, which aren't reporting rolling blackouts.
The problems with renewables is that you can't switch on or off and there is no good storage solution. However, the issue in Texas is probably exposed power cables. In Europe they are buried and we have far milder weather than the States. Anyone wants to provide some details on where the system has faltered? It is transmission? Or generation? Or just everything in general? 😃 ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Cory Sell via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 5:34 AM To: Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com>; Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts Ercot has already released actual documentation of the outputs. Wind is NOT the biggest loss here. Even if wind was operating at 100% capacity, we’d be in the same boat due to gas and fossil fuel-related generation being decimated. Estimated 4GW lost for wind doesn’t make up for the 30GW+ estimated being lost from fossil fuels. I only interject because people are already pointing their fingers at renewables being the cause here and trying to pawn off the blame to wind/solar to further their agendas to reduce renewable energy R&D and adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way. Sent from ProtonMail Mobile On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:17 PM, Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com<mailto:rjacobs@pslightwave.com>> wrote: How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here.. Robert Jacobs | Data Center Manager [http://www.pslightwave.com/emailsig/plwlogo.jpg]<http://www.pslightwave.com/> Direct: 832-615-7742<tel:832-615-7742> Mobile: 281-830-2092<tel:281-830-2092> Main: 832‑615‑8000 Fax: 713-510-1650 5959 Corporate Dr. Suite 3300; Houston, TX 77036 [Facebook]<https://www.facebook.com/pslightwave/> [LinkedIn]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/pslightwave> [Twitter]<https://twitter.com/PSLightwave> [http://www.pslightwave.com/emailsig/2020TopWorkplace.png]<http://www.pslightwave.com/> [http://www.pslightwave.com/emailsig/plw-wbenc.jpg] A Certified Woman‑Owned Business 24x7x365 Customer Support: 832-615-8000 | support@pslightwave.com This electronic message contains information from PS Lightwave which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify me by telephone or e-mail immediately. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rjacobs=pslightwave.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 10:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On 2/16/21 04:14, Sean Donelan wrote:
Poweroutage.us posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power outages elsewhere in the country.
https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402
Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural hazards."
I suppose having some kind of home backup solution wouldn't be too bad right now, even though you may still not get access to services. But at least, you can brew some coffee, and charge your pulse oximetre. Mark.
Texas doesn't generally experience this type of extreme cold. The power grids are being overload due to people using their electric heat or electric portable heaters. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bclark=peregrinenetworks.net@nanog.org> on behalf of Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 7:09 AM To: Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com>; Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>; Cory Sell <corysell@protonmail.com> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts The problems with renewables is that you can't switch on or off and there is no good storage solution. However, the issue in Texas is probably exposed power cables. In Europe they are buried and we have far milder weather than the States. Anyone wants to provide some details on where the system has faltered? It is transmission? Or generation? Or just everything in general? 😃 ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Cory Sell via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 5:34 AM To: Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com>; Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts Ercot has already released actual documentation of the outputs. Wind is NOT the biggest loss here. Even if wind was operating at 100% capacity, we’d be in the same boat due to gas and fossil fuel-related generation being decimated. Estimated 4GW lost for wind doesn’t make up for the 30GW+ estimated being lost from fossil fuels. I only interject because people are already pointing their fingers at renewables being the cause here and trying to pawn off the blame to wind/solar to further their agendas to reduce renewable energy R&D and adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way. Sent from ProtonMail Mobile On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:17 PM, Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com<mailto:rjacobs@pslightwave.com>> wrote: How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here.. Robert Jacobs | Data Center Manager [http://www.pslightwave.com/emailsig/plwlogo.jpg]<http://www.pslightwave.com/> Direct: 832-615-7742<tel:832-615-7742> Mobile: 281-830-2092<tel:281-830-2092> Main: 832‑615‑8000 Fax: 713-510-1650 5959 Corporate Dr. Suite 3300; Houston, TX 77036 [Facebook]<https://www.facebook.com/pslightwave/> [LinkedIn]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/pslightwave> [Twitter]<https://twitter.com/PSLightwave> [http://www.pslightwave.com/emailsig/2020TopWorkplace.png]<http://www.pslightwave.com/> [http://www.pslightwave.com/emailsig/plw-wbenc.jpg] A Certified Woman‑Owned Business 24x7x365 Customer Support: 832-615-8000 | support@pslightwave.com This electronic message contains information from PS Lightwave which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify me by telephone or e-mail immediately. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rjacobs=pslightwave.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 10:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On 2/16/21 04:14, Sean Donelan wrote:
Poweroutage.us posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power outages elsewhere in the country.
https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402
Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural hazards."
I suppose having some kind of home backup solution wouldn't be too bad right now, even though you may still not get access to services. But at least, you can brew some coffee, and charge your pulse oximetre. Mark.
On 2/16/21 14:23, Bret Clark wrote:
Texas doesn't generally experience this type of extreme cold. The power grids are being overload due to people using their electric heat or electric portable heaters.
Any shared resource will have its limits exposed when patterns spiral, unusually. Mark.
On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:23:22PM +0000, Bret Clark wrote:
Texas doesn't generally experience this type of extreme cold.
That was then; this is now. As scientist Jeff Masters put it most of a decade ago: The atmosphere I grew up with no longer exists. My new motto with regards to the weather is, "expect the unprecedented." In the years since he's said that we've seen a number of unprecedented events: Sandy, Harvey, California wildfires, last year's midwest derecho, and so on. This event in Texas is just another one; there will be more; they'll get worse. We should probably get ready for that. ---rsk
Exactly. The weather is not a stationary time series. The moments of the probability distribution are not time invariant. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 6:18 PM To: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:23:22PM +0000, Bret Clark wrote:
Texas doesn't generally experience this type of extreme cold.
That was then; this is now. As scientist Jeff Masters put it most of a decade ago: The atmosphere I grew up with no longer exists. My new motto with regards to the weather is, "expect the unprecedented." In the years since he's said that we've seen a number of unprecedented events: Sandy, Harvey, California wildfires, last year's midwest derecho, and so on. This event in Texas is just another one; there will be more; they'll get worse. We should probably get ready for that. ---rsk
Sorry Global Warmists, But Extreme Weather Events Are Becoming Less Extreme Just about every type of extreme weather event is becoming less frequent and less severe in recent years as our planet continues its modest warming in the wake of the Little Ice Age. While global warming activists attempt to spin a narrative of ever-worsening weather, the objective facts tell a completely different story. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2013/05/08/sorry-global-warmists-bu... The above article is from 2013 article provides hard data that extreme weather events are becoming less, not more, frequent and severe. That trend continues today. So the premise that weather events are getting “increasingly unprecedented" is demonstrably false. What is true is that cost of extreme weather events has gone up, but that’s a function of population density, not of weather itself, nor of climate change. The data that climate alarmists most often cite to bolster the false narrative of increasing severe weather is the “Billion-Dollar Weather and Climate Disaster Events” chart: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/billions/events The worst event ever, at $170B, was the merely Cat3 hurricane Katrina. It caused $170B in damage because it hit the highly dense New Orleans urban center. Yet the massively more severe Cat5 hurricane Michael, which hit a much less population-dense Mexico Beach, FL, caused only $25B in damage. Weather intensity doesn’t correlate with damage costs. Population does. Knowing accurately the true trend of severe weather is important to NANOG operational planning, because it bears directly on the cost/benefit analysis of infrastructure hardening. Physical integrity is always a function of cost vs benefit, and we as network operators can’t afford to spend “unprecedented" sums for diminishing benefits. We must use facts, not alarmism, to decide on what we should "probably get ready for”. -mel On Feb 22, 2021, at 9:18 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote: On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:23:22PM +0000, Bret Clark wrote: Texas doesn't generally experience this type of extreme cold. That was then; this is now. As scientist Jeff Masters put it most of a decade ago: The atmosphere I grew up with no longer exists. My new motto with regards to the weather is, "expect the unprecedented." In the years since he's said that we've seen a number of unprecedented events: Sandy, Harvey, California wildfires, last year's midwest derecho, and so on. This event in Texas is just another one; there will be more; they'll get worse. We should probably get ready for that. ---rsk
On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 at 19:57, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists, But Extreme Weather Events Are Becoming Less Extreme Just about every type of extreme weather event is becoming less frequent and less severe in recent years as our planet continues its modest warming in the wake of the Little Ice Age. While global warming activists attempt to spin a narrative of ever-worsening weather, the objective facts tell a completely different story.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2013/05/08/sorry-global-warmists-bu...
https://grist.org/series/skeptics/ https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/ -- ++ytti, not a climate scientist so chooses to believe them
Saku, I see that not one of your references addresses the facts pointed out by Forbes. Rather than a shotgun response, can you counter the evidence cited that disproves the claim that climate events are getting more frequent and severe? it’s a fair topic for NANOG. The idea that countervailing evidence cannot be tolerated is the domain of religion, not science. Science accepts, and in fact encourages, such evidence. -mel
On Feb 22, 2021, at 10:01 AM, Saku Ytti <saku@ytti.fi> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 at 19:57, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists, But Extreme Weather Events Are Becoming Less Extreme Just about every type of extreme weather event is becoming less frequent and less severe in recent years as our planet continues its modest warming in the wake of the Little Ice Age. While global warming activists attempt to spin a narrative of ever-worsening weather, the objective facts tell a completely different story.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2013/05/08/sorry-global-warmists-bu...
https://grist.org/series/skeptics/ https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/
-- ++ytti, not a climate scientist so chooses to believe them
Mel, just please remove yourself from this conversation if you don't accept the basic premise. Go and find those missing votes in Georgia. Best, -R. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Brandon Svec via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 7:16 PM To: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On Feb 22, 2021, at 9:56 AM, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists,
Stopped taking you seriously or reading further right there. Well, that and linking to Forbes for something related to science. Best.
Rod, I brought up a single objection to a single claim. You choose to dismiss me because I “don’t accept the basic premise.” Why don’t you respond to the specific facts I cited? Why resort to personal attacks? Name calling is the last resort of the man with no argument. -mel On Feb 22, 2021, at 10:19 AM, Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com<mailto:rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com>> wrote: Mel, just please remove yourself from this conversation if you don't accept the basic premise. Go and find those missing votes in Georgia. Best, -R. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org>> on behalf of Brandon Svec via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 7:16 PM To: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On Feb 22, 2021, at 9:56 AM, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org<mailto:mel@beckman.org>> wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists,
Stopped taking you seriously or reading further right there. Well, that and linking to Forbes for something related to science. Best.
What offended you? The term “Global Warmist”? It’s an accurate description of people who hold that climate change is causing more frequent and severe weather, due to heating of the atmosphere. And your argument about “Forbes for something related to science” fails on the classic logical fallacy “appeal to authority”. Just because Forbes states easily verifiable public facts doesn’t make them untrustworthy. Scientific knowledge is best established by evidence and experiment rather than argued through authority by “consensus”. Science is not a consensus enterprise. -mel
On Feb 22, 2021, at 10:16 AM, Brandon Svec via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
On Feb 22, 2021, at 9:56 AM, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists,
Stopped taking you seriously or reading further right there. Well, that and linking to Forbes for something related to science.
Best.
OK, I looked closer. I see it is a self titled opinion piece so there is that. Next, I see all the links in the article go to questionable sites (not .edu or scientific organizations, etc.) except one cherry picked NOAA stat for a single event type for a single year. Last, the writer is the president of a right wing anti science lobbying group called "Spark of Freedom" funded by Exxon Mobil. Look, I and most everyone on this list are not qualified, experienced climate scientists. However, I think when you are not an expert you should respect and believe what experts say as a group. Picking outliers and sharing opinions of obviously unqualified and biased people is reprehensible and dishonest as far as I am concerned. If you truly believe the scientific consensus around climate change is wrong you are going to have to do a lot more than share links. You will have to do science and prove it. Best. On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:27 AM Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
What offended you? The term “Global Warmist”? It’s an accurate description of people who hold that climate change is causing more frequent and severe weather, due to heating of the atmosphere.
And your argument about “Forbes for something related to science” fails on the classic logical fallacy “appeal to authority”. Just because Forbes states easily verifiable public facts doesn’t make them untrustworthy. Scientific knowledge is best established by evidence and experiment rather than argued through authority by “consensus”. Science is not a consensus enterprise.
-mel
On Feb 22, 2021, at 10:16 AM, Brandon Svec via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
On Feb 22, 2021, at 9:56 AM, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists,
Stopped taking you seriously or reading further right there. Well, that and linking to Forbes for something related to science.
Best.
Brandon, Actually, no, I don’t have to do science to object to claims made by scientists. Even when there is a consensus. I can simply cite data, and it is the duty of the person making the claim to defend their theory. If you’re going to defend it for them, then you need to cite countering data, not an “argument from authority”. It should be a simple matter to find data supporting the claim that weather is getting more severe, rather than just more costly, which is the usual conflation by climate warmists. -mel On Feb 22, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Brandon Svec <bsvec@teamonesolutions.com<mailto:bsvec@teamonesolutions.com>> wrote: OK, I looked closer. I see it is a self titled opinion piece so there is that. Next, I see all the links in the article go to questionable sites (not .edu or scientific organizations, etc.) except one cherry picked NOAA stat for a single event type for a single year. Last, the writer is the president of a right wing anti science lobbying group called "Spark of Freedom" funded by Exxon Mobil. Look, I and most everyone on this list are not qualified, experienced climate scientists. However, I think when you are not an expert you should respect and believe what experts say as a group. Picking outliers and sharing opinions of obviously unqualified and biased people is reprehensible and dishonest as far as I am concerned. If you truly believe the scientific consensus around climate change is wrong you are going to have to do a lot more than share links. You will have to do science and prove it. Best. On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:27 AM Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org<mailto:mel@beckman.org>> wrote: What offended you? The term “Global Warmist”? It’s an accurate description of people who hold that climate change is causing more frequent and severe weather, due to heating of the atmosphere. And your argument about “Forbes for something related to science” fails on the classic logical fallacy “appeal to authority”. Just because Forbes states easily verifiable public facts doesn’t make them untrustworthy. Scientific knowledge is best established by evidence and experiment rather than argued through authority by “consensus”. Science is not a consensus enterprise. -mel
On Feb 22, 2021, at 10:16 AM, Brandon Svec via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
On Feb 22, 2021, at 9:56 AM, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org<mailto:mel@beckman.org>> wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists,
Stopped taking you seriously or reading further right there. Well, that and linking to Forbes for something related to science.
Best.
On 2/22/21 11:26, Mel Beckman wrote:
What offended you? The term “Global Warmist”? It’s an accurate description of people who hold that climate change is causing more frequent and severe weather, due to heating of the atmosphere.
And your argument about “Forbes for something related to science” fails on the classic logical fallacy “appeal to authority”. Just because Forbes states easily verifiable public facts doesn’t make them untrustworthy. Scientific knowledge is best established by evidence and experiment rather than argued through authority by “consensus”. Science is not a consensus enterprise.
I'm not offended in any way, but I did note that the cited link is an opinion piece that is more than seven years old. Forbes states both of these facts before the article even begins. It claims that NOAA data shows hurricanes declining. Here's the NOAA graph. Judge for yourself. https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/tornadoes/202013 The opinion piece also claims that hurricanes are declining in number. These numbers are also inaccurate (and at least seven years out of date). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_hurricane_season http://www.stormfax.com/huryear.htm In any case, it wasn't Forbes stating easily verifiable public facts. It was Forbes publishing the opinion of the president of a petroleum industry lobbying group who is now listed as a "former contributor". Did I mention that the cited data is over seven years out of date? Following the links shows that some of the quoted sources were from 2005. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 05:48:06PM +0000, Mel Beckman wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists,
Right. Sure. Also, the earth is 6,000 years old (and flat), the moon landings were faked, creationism is real, dinosaurs and humans co-existed, vaccines cause autism, Elvis is alive, and...how does that line go? Oh, right: artificial sweeteners are safe, WMDs were in Iraq, and Anna Nicole married for love. [shout-out to Levon Helm] This trash doesn't deserve rebuttal: it deserves ridicule. ---rsk
On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 at 20:28, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
right: artificial sweeteners are safe, WMDs were in Iraq, and Anna Nicole
Hope you meant to write 'unsafe', as the conspiracy theory is that aspartame is unsafe, the science says it is safe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame_controversy -- ++ytti
On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 08:44:32PM +0200, Saku Ytti wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 at 20:28, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
right: artificial sweeteners are safe, WMDs were in Iraq, and Anna Nicole
Hope you meant to write 'unsafe', as the conspiracy theory is that aspartame is unsafe, the science says it is safe.
Those last three points are a quote from a movie -- which is why I included the shout-out to Levon Helm (warning, spoilers, the quote's at about 2:00): Shooter: Levon Helm as Mr Rate - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVw8FPIvOZc I included them as a joke because anyone who disputes AGW at this point *is* a joke and should be laughed out of the room. Less snarktastically, a very good starting point for people who want to understand the science of global warming is this document: Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/WG1AR5_all_final.pdf It's exhaustive in its coverage (which is why it's 1500+ pages) and reading it will require basic literacy in math/stat and physical science. But it's part of the required homework for anyone trying to understand this topic. The 2021 version is now in preparation and if things go well, it should be out mid-to-late summer. Another highly useful document is: Fourth National Climate Assessment https://nca2018.globalchange.gov/downloads/NCA4_2018_FullReport.pdf which also clocks in at 1500+ pages. This document has both a broader focus (for example, it discusses impacts and mitigation) and a narrower focus (it's US-centric). It's also written for a more general audience and requires less math/science background for comprehension, so I recommend that anybody who struggles to get through the one above try this instead. Also: this one is arguably more useful for NANOG/operational/planning purposes. I think it'd be a good read for anyone who's trying to figure out what's going to happen to their physical assets/locations, or for anyone who's trying to plan where to put things and how to build them. Additional resources: Climate Change and Infrastructure, Urban Systems, and Vulnerability Technical Report for the US DoE Thomas Wilbanks and Steven J. Fernandez (This one is also useful for NANOG denizens. Chapter 5 on risk mitigation strategies is particularly interesting.) The Encyclopedia of Global Warming and Climate Change, 2ed S. George Philander, editor (A general reference. Having this handy while reading the IPCC report I mentioned above can be helpful.) Atmospheric Thermodynamics - Elementary Physics and Chemistry Gerald R. North and Tatiana L. Erukhimova (You'll need integral and differential calculus for this one, and a previous course in introductory thermodynamics will help. This is not about climate -- or weather -- per se, but it provides some of the fundamental science necessary to understand both.) Attribution of Extreme Weather Events in the Context of Climate Change Committee of Extreme Weather Events and Climate Change Attribution (Attribution science is relatively new but is making rapid progress. The ability to look back and demonstrate causal relationships is going to be invaluable as we look forward.) ----rsk
Rich, Calling my opposing argument “trash”, and then falsely linking it to unrelated theories on vaccines, evolution, moon landings, and dietary supplements, is intellectually dishonest and professionally rude. Why don’t you respond to the facts raised in the article? Does your religion not permit that? Either weather events are getting worse, or they aren’t. I provided solid evidence that they are diminishing. The truth of this issue is important to NANOG, because we build the infrastructure that runs the Internet, and we can’t afford to waste finite resources on alarmist claims. -mel
On Feb 22, 2021, at 10:23 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 05:48:06PM +0000, Mel Beckman wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists,
Right. Sure. Also, the earth is 6,000 years old (and flat), the moon landings were faked, creationism is real, dinosaurs and humans co-existed, vaccines cause autism, Elvis is alive, and...how does that line go? Oh, right: artificial sweeteners are safe, WMDs were in Iraq, and Anna Nicole married for love. [shout-out to Levon Helm]
This trash doesn't deserve rebuttal: it deserves ridicule.
---rsk
On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:37 AM Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Either weather events are getting worse, or they aren’t.
No, nothing is so black and white. Certainly not science.
I provided solid evidence that they are diminishing.
No, you didn't. You shared an opinion piece written by the president of a science denying lobbying group funded by Exxon Mobil
The truth of this issue is important to NANOG, because we build the infrastructure that runs the Internet, and we can’t afford to waste finite resources on alarmist claims.
That I can partially agree with. I would say even if science is 100% wrong about climate change and what is causing it, it is still a good investment to prepare for the unexpected and unprecedented when it comes to building and supporting resilient systems. Best
On Feb 22, 2021, at 10:23 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 05:48:06PM +0000, Mel Beckman wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists,
Right. Sure. Also, the earth is 6,000 years old (and flat), the moon landings were faked, creationism is real, dinosaurs and humans co-existed, vaccines cause autism, Elvis is alive, and...how does that line go? Oh, right: artificial sweeteners are safe, WMDs were in Iraq, and Anna Nicole married for love. [shout-out to Levon Helm]
This trash doesn't deserve rebuttal: it deserves ridicule.
---rsk
I can argue about this all day on Facebook or Twitter (and sometimes do, whether trolling or serious depends on the day). Let's reign it back in to network operations concerns. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Svec via NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> To: "Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org> Cc: "Rich Kulawiec" <rsk@gsp.org>, nanog@nanog.org Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 1:43:22 PM Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:37 AM Mel Beckman < mel@beckman.org > wrote: Either weather events are getting worse, or they aren’t. No, nothing is so black and white. Certainly not science. <blockquote> I provided solid evidence that they are diminishing. </blockquote> No, you didn't. You shared an opinion piece written by the president of a science denying lobbying group funded by Exxon Mobil <blockquote> The truth of this issue is important to NANOG, because we build the infrastructure that runs the Internet, and we can’t afford to waste finite resources on alarmist claims. </blockquote> That I can partially agree with. I would say even if science is 100% wrong about climate change and what is causing it, it is still a good investment to prepare for the unexpected and unprecedented when it comes to building and supporting resilient systems. Best <blockquote>
On Feb 22, 2021, at 10:23 AM, Rich Kulawiec < rsk@gsp.org > wrote:
On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 05:48:06PM +0000, Mel Beckman wrote:
Sorry Global Warmists,
Right. Sure. Also, the earth is 6,000 years old (and flat), the moon landings were faked, creationism is real, dinosaurs and humans co-existed, vaccines cause autism, Elvis is alive, and...how does that line go? Oh, right: artificial sweeteners are safe, WMDs were in Iraq, and Anna Nicole married for love. [shout-out to Levon Helm]
This trash doesn't deserve rebuttal: it deserves ridicule.
---rsk
</blockquote>
You guys build how you want. At 6x7 we are building to prepare for possible climactic shifts. The origin need not be anthropogenic, but that doesn’t look good. “Doing nothing” isn’t really an option, and “doing what republicans want because they say so and they’re my dad” isn’t a good argument. Nor is it a personality. Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC CEO ben@6by7.net "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the world.” FCC License KJ6FJJ Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.
On Feb 22, 2021, at 11:35 AM, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Rich,
Calling my opposing argument “trash”, and then falsely linking it to unrelated theories on vaccines, evolution, moon landings, and dietary supplements, is intellectually dishonest and professionally rude. Why don’t you respond to the facts raised in the article? Does your religion not permit that?
Either weather events are getting worse, or they aren’t. I provided solid evidence that they are diminishing. The truth of this issue is important to NANOG, because we build the infrastructure that runs the Internet, and we can’t afford to waste finite resources on alarmist claims.
-mel
On Feb 22, 2021, at 10:23 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 05:48:06PM +0000, Mel Beckman wrote: Sorry Global Warmists,
Right. Sure. Also, the earth is 6,000 years old (and flat), the moon landings were faked, creationism is real, dinosaurs and humans co-existed, vaccines cause autism, Elvis is alive, and...how does that line go? Oh, right: artificial sweeteners are safe, WMDs were in Iraq, and Anna Nicole married for love. [shout-out to Levon Helm]
This trash doesn't deserve rebuttal: it deserves ridicule.
---rsk
When I lived in Oklahoma, the mantra of the locals was "if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes." As a member of a Boy Scout troop in the northern part of the Sooner State, we were told, repeatedly, to expect anything from broiling to deep freeze on our campouts. One such outing was on fallow farmland. Because the campsite was in the middle of nowhere, we were a small group, and came in three cars. We pitched four tents. During the night, a gullywasher came through and dropped several inches of water in one hour. Three of the tents were inundated with water, and the campers ended up sleeping in the cars. My tent was dry inside, because my tent-mate and I had seen the storm clouds, dug a trench around the tent, and loosened the ropes. It helped that we had pitched the tent on a slight mound. Some disasters are unavoidable, like tornados. Others allow for mitigation by the thoughtful. On 2/22/21 9:18 AM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:23:22PM +0000, Bret Clark wrote:
Texas doesn't generally experience this type of extreme cold.
That was then; this is now.
As scientist Jeff Masters put it most of a decade ago:
The atmosphere I grew up with no longer exists. My new motto with regards to the weather is, "expect the unprecedented."
In the years since he's said that we've seen a number of unprecedented events: Sandy, Harvey, California wildfires, last year's midwest derecho, and so on. This event in Texas is just another one; there will be more; they'll get worse.
We should probably get ready for that.
---rsk
On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 6:11 AM Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> wrote:
Anyone wants to provide some details on where the system has faltered? It is transmission? Or generation? Or just everything in general? 😃
You can find ERCOT Operations Messageshttp:// www.ercot.com/services/comm/mkt_notices/opsmessages
From what I understand generation/transmission/distribution are all affected to different degrees.
On Fuel Mix Report: 2021, wind was 25% by GWh for 2021 January, current it is ~9% http://www.ercot.com/gridinfo/generation http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/html/real_time_system_conditions.html (DC Tie is non-synchronize connection to other grids)
Market Participants that own or operate facilities that are part of the Bulk Electric System, as defined in federal law, are subject to oversight by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC), the North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC), and Texas Reliability Entity, Inc. (Texas RE). http://www.ercot.com/mktrules/compliance
ERCOT is subject to (federal) NERC Reliability Standards, but not interstate transmission regulations. Only generation and retail electric providers are deregulated. Transmission and distribution are not. Municipally owned utilities and electric coop in ERCOT region are exempt from unbundling (from vertically integrated monopoly).
On 16. Feb 2021, at 16:40, Yang Yu <yang.yu.list@gmail.com> wrote:
You can find ERCOT Operations Messageshttp://www.ercot.com/services/comm/mkt_notices/opsmessages
No, I can’t. (OK, with a handy VPN, I do get access. ) Grüße, Carsten Access Denied Error 16 www.ercot.com 2021-02-16 22:12:17 UTC If you believe you have a valid business reason for accessing ERCOT resources, please contact the ERCOT HelpDesk at 512-248-6800 or 1-866-870-8124 (USA) or HelpDesk@ercot.com. Please provide the HelpDesk with the information supplied below. Your IP: 80.137.168.40 Error code: 16
This request was blocked by the security rules
What happened? This request was blocked by the security rules Your IP: 80.137.168.40 Proxy IP: 185.11.125.144 (ID 10535-100) Incident ID: 535000310029634434-105306125617268682
On 2/16/21 14:09, Rod Beck wrote:
The problems with renewables is that you can't switch on or off and there is no good storage solution.
While solar + batteries would be good backup options, they would do little to support electric-driven heating, as solar irradiation during winter is too low already, and zapping your batteries on resistive loads will surely kill them young. Li-Ion storage is by no means perfect, but it's the most perfect we have, today. Mark.
I just assumed most people in Texas have heat pumps- AC in the summer and minimal heating in the winter when needed. When the entire state gets a deep freeze, everybody is running those heat pumps non-stop, and the generation capacity simply wasn’t there. i.e. coal or natural gas plants have some turbines offline, etc.,. in the winter because historically power use is much much less. The odd thing is its been days now, those plants should be able to ramp back up to capacity - but clearly they haven’t. Blaming this on wind turbines is BS. In fact, if it weren’t for so many people in Texas with grid-tie solar systems, the situation would be even worse. And of course, the real issue is Texas’ closed grid - any other state could pull in more power from neighbors. -John
On Feb 15, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Cory Sell via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Ercot has already released actual documentation of the outputs. Wind is NOT the biggest loss here. Even if wind was operating at 100% capacity, we’d be in the same boat due to gas and fossil fuel-related generation being decimated. Estimated 4GW lost for wind doesn’t make up for the 30GW+ estimated being lost from fossil fuels.
I only interject because people are already pointing their fingers at renewables being the cause here and trying to pawn off the blame to wind/solar to further their agendas to reduce renewable energy R&D and adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way.
Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:17 PM, Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com <mailto:rjacobs@pslightwave.com>> wrote:
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here..
Robert Jacobs | Data Center Manager <http://www.pslightwave.com/> Direct: 832-615-7742 <tel:832-615-7742> Mobile: 281-830-2092 <tel:281-830-2092> Main: 832‑615‑8000 Fax: 713-510-1650 <> 5959 Corporate Dr. Suite 3300; Houston, TX 77036 <https://www.facebook.com/pslightwave/> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/pslightwave> <https://twitter.com/PSLightwave> <http://www.pslightwave.com/> A Certified Woman‑Owned Business 24x7x365 Customer Support: 832-615-8000 | support@pslightwave.com
This electronic message contains information from PS Lightwave which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify me by telephone or e-mail immediately. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rjacobs=pslightwave.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 10:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On 2/16/21 04:14, Sean Donelan wrote:
Poweroutage.us posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power outages elsewhere in the country.
https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402
Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural hazards."
I suppose having some kind of home backup solution wouldn't be too bad right now, even though you may still not get access to services. But at least, you can brew some coffee, and charge your pulse oximetre.
Mark.
Mismanagement and poor planning are primarily to blame. One can't just blame the weather. We know weather will be bad and have extreme variations. I am sure Texas politicians are considering what they could have done better right now.. https://twitter.com/blkahn/status/1361682089310052354 *Brandon * On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 8:53 AM John Von Essen <john@essenz.com> wrote:
I just assumed most people in Texas have heat pumps- AC in the summer and minimal heating in the winter when needed. When the entire state gets a deep freeze, everybody is running those heat pumps non-stop, and the generation capacity simply wasn’t there. i.e. coal or natural gas plants have some turbines offline, etc.,. in the winter because historically power use is much much less. The odd thing is its been days now, those plants should be able to ramp back up to capacity - but clearly they haven’t. Blaming this on wind turbines is BS. In fact, if it weren’t for so many people in Texas with grid-tie solar systems, the situation would be even worse.
And of course, the real issue is Texas’ closed grid - any other state could pull in more power from neighbors.
-John
On Feb 15, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Cory Sell via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Ercot has already released actual documentation of the outputs. Wind is NOT the biggest loss here. Even if wind was operating at 100% capacity, we’d be in the same boat due to gas and fossil fuel-related generation being decimated. Estimated 4GW lost for wind doesn’t make up for the 30GW+ estimated being lost from fossil fuels.
I only interject because people are already pointing their fingers at renewables being the cause here and trying to pawn off the blame to wind/solar to further their agendas to reduce renewable energy R&D and adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way.
Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:17 PM, Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com> wrote:
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here..
Robert Jacobs | Data Center Manager <http://www.pslightwave.com/> Direct: *832-615-7742* <832-615-7742> Mobile: *281-830-2092* <281-830-2092> Main: 832‑615‑8000 Fax: *713-510-1650* 5959 Corporate Dr. Suite 3300; Houston, TX 77036 [image: Facebook] <https://www.facebook.com/pslightwave/> [image: LinkedIn] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/pslightwave> [image: Twitter] <https://twitter.com/PSLightwave> <http://www.pslightwave.com/> A Certified Woman‑Owned Business 24x7x365 Customer Support: 832-615-8000 | support@pslightwave.com
This electronic message contains information from PS Lightwave which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify me by telephone or e-mail immediately. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rjacobs=pslightwave.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 10:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On 2/16/21 04:14, Sean Donelan wrote:
Poweroutage.us posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power outages elsewhere in the country.
https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402
Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural hazards."
I suppose having some kind of home backup solution wouldn't be too bad right now, even though you may still not get access to services. But at least, you can brew some coffee, and charge your pulse oximetre.
Mark.
Last time I looked - admittedly a while - Texas made it VERY difficult for municipalities to set up broadband utilities, even in areas where no commercial player was interested. Maybe that's catching up to them. Miles Fidelman Brandon Svec wrote:
Mismanagement and poor planning are primarily to blame. One can't just blame the weather. We know weather will be bad and have extreme variations. I am sure Texas politicians are considering what they could have done better right now.. https://twitter.com/blkahn/status/1361682089310052354 *Brandon *
On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 8:53 AM John Von Essen <john@essenz.com <mailto:john@essenz.com>> wrote:
I just assumed most people in Texas have heat pumps- AC in the summer and minimal heating in the winter when needed. When the entire state gets a deep freeze, everybody is running those heat pumps non-stop, and the generation capacity simply wasn’t there. i.e. coal or natural gas plants have some turbines offline, etc.,. in the winter because historically power use is much much less. The odd thing is its been days now, those plants should be able to ramp back up to capacity - but clearly they haven’t. Blaming this on wind turbines is BS. In fact, if it weren’t for so many people in Texas with grid-tie solar systems, the situation would be even worse.
And of course, the real issue is Texas’ closed grid - any other state could pull in more power from neighbors.
-John
On Feb 15, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Cory Sell via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
Ercot has already released actual documentation of the outputs. Wind is NOT the biggest loss here. Even if wind was operating at 100% capacity, we’d be in the same boat due to gas and fossil fuel-related generation being decimated. Estimated 4GW lost for wind doesn’t make up for the 30GW+ estimated being lost from fossil fuels.
I only interject because people are already pointing their fingers at renewables being the cause here and trying to pawn off the blame to wind/solar to further their agendas to reduce renewable energy R&D and adoption. Sure, wind isn’t perfect, but looks like solution relied on failed in a massive way.
Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:17 PM, Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com <mailto:rjacobs@pslightwave.com>> wrote:
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here..
Robert Jacobs
| Data Center Manager
<http://www.pslightwave.com/> Direct: *832-615-7742* <tel:832-615-7742> Mobile: *281-830-2092* <tel:281-830-2092> Main: 832‑615‑8000 Fax: *713-510-1650*
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-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rjacobs=pslightwave.com@nanog.org <mailto:nanog-bounces+rjacobs=pslightwave.com@nanog.org>> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 10:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On 2/16/21 04:14, Sean Donelan wrote: > > Poweroutage.us <http://Poweroutage.us> posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional > borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power > outages elsewhere in the country. > > https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402 > > > Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural > hazards."
I suppose having some kind of home backup solution wouldn't be too bad right now, even though you may still not get access to services. But at least, you can brew some coffee, and charge your pulse oximetre.
Mark.
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
On 2/16/21 8:50 AM, John Von Essen wrote:
I just assumed most people in Texas have heat pumps- AC in the summer and minimal heating in the winter when needed. When the entire state gets a deep freeze, everybody is running those heat pumps non-stop, and the generation capacity simply wasn’t there. i.e. coal or natural gas plants have some turbines offline, etc.,. in the winter because historically power use is much much less. The odd thing is its been days now, those plants should be able to ramp back up to capacity - but clearly they haven’t. Blaming this on wind turbines is BS. In fact, if it weren’t for so many people in Texas with grid-tie solar systems, the situation would be even worse.
You'd think that mid-summer Texas chews a lot more peak capacity than the middle of winter. Plus I would think a lot of Texas uses natural gas for heat rather than electricity further mitigating its effect on the grid. Mike
On Feb 16, 2021, at 11:51 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
You'd think that mid-summer Texas chews a lot more peak capacity than the middle of winter. Plus I would think a lot of Texas uses natural gas for heat rather than electricity further mitigating its effect on the grid.
Mike
The eia.gov site shows it to be about a 50/50 split between natural gas and electric heating. Propane fills in a few more percent. Yes, the grid does get quite strained in the summer from AC use. —Chris, from Austin
On 2/16/21 09:49, Michael Thomas wrote:
On 2/16/21 8:50 AM, John Von Essen wrote:
I just assumed most people in Texas have heat pumps- AC in the summer and minimal heating in the winter when needed. When the entire state gets a deep freeze, everybody is running those heat pumps non-stop, and the generation capacity simply wasn’t there. i.e. coal or natural gas plants have some turbines offline, etc.,. in the winter because historically power use is much much less. The odd thing is its been days now, those plants should be able to ramp back up to capacity - but clearly they haven’t. Blaming this on wind turbines is BS. In fact, if it weren’t for so many people in Texas with grid-tie solar systems, the situation would be even worse.
You'd think that mid-summer Texas chews a lot more peak capacity than the middle of winter. Plus I would think a lot of Texas uses natural gas for heat rather than electricity further mitigating its effect on the grid.
The difference is that in extreme cold heat pump systems are likely switching on emergency heat (i.e. plain old resistance heaters) when the compressor alone can no longer keep up with call for heat demand, which requires significantly more power. That's never happening in the summer, which is only ever running the compressor.
100%. Our system has been on stage 2 aux heat (electric) ever since we dropped below 24 or so. Usually we might see it for a few hours on the coldest nights. I'd say most people are probably pulling full summer load +20%. On Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 5:10 PM Seth Mattinen <sethm@rollernet.us> wrote:
On 2/16/21 09:49, Michael Thomas wrote:
On 2/16/21 8:50 AM, John Von Essen wrote:
I just assumed most people in Texas have heat pumps- AC in the summer and minimal heating in the winter when needed. When the entire state gets a deep freeze, everybody is running those heat pumps non-stop, and the generation capacity simply wasn’t there. i.e. coal or natural gas plants have some turbines offline, etc.,. in the winter because historically power use is much much less. The odd thing is its been days now, those plants should be able to ramp back up to capacity - but clearly they haven’t. Blaming this on wind turbines is BS. In fact, if it weren’t for so many people in Texas with grid-tie solar systems, the situation would be even worse.
You'd think that mid-summer Texas chews a lot more peak capacity than the middle of winter. Plus I would think a lot of Texas uses natural gas for heat rather than electricity further mitigating its effect on the
grid.
The difference is that in extreme cold heat pump systems are likely switching on emergency heat (i.e. plain old resistance heaters) when the compressor alone can no longer keep up with call for heat demand, which requires significantly more power. That's never happening in the summer, which is only ever running the compressor.
On Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 17:12 Seth Mattinen <sethm@rollernet.us> wrote:
On 2/16/21 09:49, Michael Thomas wrote:
On 2/16/21 8:50 AM, John Von Essen wrote:
I just assumed most people in Texas have heat pumps- AC in the summer and minimal heating in the winter when needed. When the entire state gets a deep freeze, everybody is running those heat pumps non-stop, and the generation capacity simply wasn’t there. i.e. coal or natural gas plants have some turbines offline, etc.,. in the winter because historically power use is much much less. The odd thing is its been days now, those plants should be able to ramp back up to capacity - but clearly they haven’t. Blaming this on wind turbines is BS. In fact, if it weren’t for so many people in Texas with grid-tie solar systems, the situation would be even worse.
You'd think that mid-summer Texas chews a lot more peak capacity than the middle of winter. Plus I would think a lot of Texas uses natural gas for heat rather than electricity further mitigating its effect on the
grid.
The difference is that in extreme cold heat pump systems are likely switching on emergency heat (i.e. plain old resistance heaters) when the compressor alone can no longer keep up with call for heat demand, which requires significantly more power. That's never happening in the summer, which is only ever running the compressor.
Modern air source heat pumps, including air to water units, do not need to fallback to resistance until somewhere in the -4 to -22 degrees F range, depending on ASHP model. That is colder than the lowest lows reported so far in TX during the current polar vortex. Older units from say 30 years ago had significantly higher cutover points. I'm guessing the installed equipment base in TX probably includes a lot of older units. The difference is while old air source heat pumps were enough to provide all the HVAC needs in moderate temps, modern units can also provide all the heating needs in cold climates like found in Minnesota and Wisconsin, all while maintaining a COP > 1.0, i.e. better than resistance. Building energy performance also matters. Leaky buildings can expect high energy requirements as the desired interior temperature diverges from the exterior temperature. Well built homes can be heated on nothing more than the output of a regular toaster. I read that part of the TX issue was a natural gas supply shortfall, where natgas was prioritized to heating applications, leaving electric power generation short. MicroCHP and/or district heating tied into available heat sources (maybe also to datacenter cooling?) would be of great benefit in keeping the lights on and places warm. The attempts to place blame on renewables are disingenuous distractions away from infrastructural design weaknesses that are being exposed by stressed systems. There are examples of renewables working fine, in colder regions, with high (up to 100%) fractions of energy coming from renewable sources. These systems tend to maximize the use of every available BTU or kWh, and they don't try to solve everything by just throwing more BTUs and kWh at the problem. For starters, there is a relatively simple geothermal system, designed by a man in Nebraska, that allows him to grow citrus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_3_gsgsnk https://greenhouseinthesnow.com
On 2/16/21 18:50, John Von Essen wrote:
I just assumed most people in Texas have heat pumps- AC in the summer and minimal heating in the winter when needed. When the entire state gets a deep freeze, everybody is running those heat pumps non-stop, and the generation capacity simply wasn’t there. i.e. coal or natural gas plants have some turbines offline, etc.,. in the winter because historically power use is much much less. The odd thing is its been days now, those plants should be able to ramp back up to capacity - but clearly they haven’t. Blaming this on wind turbines is BS. In fact, if it weren’t for so many people in Texas with grid-tie solar systems, the situation would be even worse.
I'm not sure that grid-tied solar systems actually provide any massive reprieve on utility generation, because the hours that installations can produce energy is when demand is at its lowest (fair point, working from home this past year has probably skewed that, but...). Demand tends to ramp up in the evenings, which is when solar cannot work anymore. And considering that there are more grid-tied solar solutions out there with no storage, the grid has to handle that ramp up for the evening loads, likely more quickly than they would have if there was no distributed solar generation. I'm also not sure about the state restrictions on the % of customers that can connect their solar systems to the grid, but I'd imagine it's somewhere between 10% - 20%, last time I did a spot-check on various U.S. states. Mark.
On 2/16/21 06:17, Robert Jacobs wrote:
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here..
Did I see somewhere that gas lines also got frozen, or was that just the windmills? I feel for you and the rest of Texas. Cold weather has never been my thing. Mark.
I agree. Germany spent well over 200 billion Euros on wind and solar subsidies and over 85% of the country's energy consumption is still non-renewable. Wind power is randomly generated. I really don't to depend it for either personal or business needs. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 5:17 AM To: Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here.. Robert Jacobs | Data Center Manager [http://www.pslightwave.com/emailsig/plwlogo.jpg]<http://www.pslightwave.com/> Direct: 832-615-7742<tel:832-615-7742> Mobile: 281-830-2092<tel:281-830-2092> Main: 832‑615‑8000 Fax: 713-510-1650 5959 Corporate Dr. Suite 3300; Houston, TX 77036 [Facebook]<https://www.facebook.com/pslightwave/> [LinkedIn]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/pslightwave> [Twitter]<https://twitter.com/PSLightwave> [http://www.pslightwave.com/emailsig/2020TopWorkplace.png]<http://www.pslightwave.com/> [http://www.pslightwave.com/emailsig/plw-wbenc.jpg] A Certified Woman‑Owned Business 24x7x365 Customer Support: 832-615-8000 | support@pslightwave.com This electronic message contains information from PS Lightwave which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify me by telephone or e-mail immediately. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rjacobs=pslightwave.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 10:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On 2/16/21 04:14, Sean Donelan wrote:
Poweroutage.us posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power outages elsewhere in the country.
https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402
Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural hazards."
I suppose having some kind of home backup solution wouldn't be too bad right now, even though you may still not get access to services. But at least, you can brew some coffee, and charge your pulse oximetre. Mark.
On 2/16/21 14:14, Rod Beck wrote:
I agree. Germany spent well over 200 billion Euros on wind and solar subsidies and over 85% of the country's energy consumption is still non-renewable. Wind power is randomly generated. I really don't to depend it for either personal or business needs.
The land mass required for grid-scale wind (and solar, albeit less) generation is quite significant to make a dent against traditional energy sources. Mark.
Maybe Texas can learn from its Northern neighbors. [image: image.png] On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:19 PM Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com> wrote:
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here..
Robert Jacobs | Data Center Manager <http://www.pslightwave.com/> Direct: *832-615-7742* <832-615-7742> Mobile: *281-830-2092* <281-830-2092> Main: 832‑615‑8000 Fax: *713-510-1650* 5959 Corporate Dr. Suite 3300; Houston, TX 77036 [image: Facebook] <https://www.facebook.com/pslightwave/> [image: LinkedIn] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/pslightwave> [image: Twitter] <https://twitter.com/PSLightwave> <http://www.pslightwave.com/> A Certified Woman‑Owned Business 24x7x365 Customer Support: 832-615-8000 | support@pslightwave.com
This electronic message contains information from PS Lightwave which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify me by telephone or e-mail immediately. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rjacobs=pslightwave.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 10:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On 2/16/21 04:14, Sean Donelan wrote:
Poweroutage.us posted a terrific map, showing the jurisdictional borders of the Texas power outages versus the storm related power outages elsewhere in the country.
https://twitter.com/PowerOutage_us/status/1361493394070118402
Sometimes infrastructure planning failures are not due to "natural hazards."
I suppose having some kind of home backup solution wouldn't be too bad right now, even though you may still not get access to services. But at least, you can brew some coffee, and charge your pulse oximetre.
Mark.
On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 04:17:15AM +0000, Robert Jacobs wrote:
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here..
First, wind-generation-is-responsible-for-this is a canard that's already been debunked elsewhere in this thread. Second, wind generation works just fine all winter in places like Quebec and the Alps because they design, build, and operate it to. Various de-icing solutions have been available for years, and market competition is continuously making them better and cheaper. Third, trying to slap a fossil fuel band-aid on a problem whose root cause is...wait for it...fossil fuels...while certainly a tempting option, is not a viable long-term solution. ---rsk
On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 8:18 PM Robert Jacobs <rjacobs@pslightwave.com> wrote:
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here..
CNN reports that some natural gas and oil plants as well as one nuclear plant have gone offline because the water source they depend on froze. "Natural gas and coal-fired power plants need water to stay online. Yet those water facilities froze in the cold temperatures" https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/16/business/texas-power-energy-nightmare/index.h... Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us <https://bill.herrin.us/> https://bill.herrin.us/
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Robert Jacobs wrote:
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here..
From the WashPost: "The Texas grid got crushed because its operators didn’t see the need to
Turns out that you Texans already get a majority of your power from Natural Gas. So there's already a significant amount of power from natural gas already. Things I learned about the most-of-Texas Grid today: - Natural Gas plants provide MORE THAN HALF of their total electricity generation in 2019 (WOW!) - Texas has their own grid to avoid Federal regulation. - Texas does have some links to other grids but they don't trigger federal regulation for some reason. - Texas is the largest energy-producing and energy-consuming state in the nation. The industrial sector, including its refineries and petrochemical plants, accounts for half of the energy consumed in the state. - 5 Gigawatts of coal-fired capacity has retired since 2016, and supplies 20% of power currently. - Wind power provided about 17% of their usage - There are two nuclear plants in Texas, only providing 10% of power. - One of those nuclear plants are offline due to weather-related issues. prepare for cold weather" https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/02/16/ercot-texas-electric-grid... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-retailer-g... The power market in Texas has utterly failed. Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC CEO ben@6by7.net "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the world.” FCC License KJ6FJJ Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.
On Feb 16, 2021, at 9:15 PM, Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021, Robert Jacobs wrote:
How about letting us Texans have more natural gas power plants or even let the gas be delivered to the plants we have so they can provide more power in an emergency. Did not help that 20% of our power is now wind which of course in an ice storm like we are having is shut off... Lots of issues and plenty of politics involved here..
Turns out that you Texans already get a majority of your power from Natural Gas.
So there's already a significant amount of power from natural gas already.
Things I learned about the most-of-Texas Grid today:
- Natural Gas plants provide MORE THAN HALF of their total electricity generation in 2019 (WOW!) - Texas has their own grid to avoid Federal regulation. - Texas does have some links to other grids but they don't trigger federal regulation for some reason. - Texas is the largest energy-producing and energy-consuming state in the nation. The industrial sector, including its refineries and petrochemical plants, accounts for half of the energy consumed in the state. - 5 Gigawatts of coal-fired capacity has retired since 2016, and supplies 20% of power currently. - Wind power provided about 17% of their usage - There are two nuclear plants in Texas, only providing 10% of power. - One of those nuclear plants are offline due to weather-related issues.
From the WashPost: "The Texas grid got crushed because its operators didn’t see the need to prepare for cold weather" https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/02/16/ercot-texas-electric-grid...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 2/17/21 16:09, Ben Cannon wrote:
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-retailer-g... <https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-retailer-griddys-unusual-plea-to-texas-customers-leave-now-before-you-get-a-big-bill/>
The power market in Texas has utterly failed.
Griddy aren't greedy. Pity about the grid. Mark.
CYA measure more than anything else, so Griddy can say they warned their customers that prices would be high when faced with chargebacks or bad press. Based on past experience, they are just passing through actual electric costs and profiting off of a ~$10 membership fee. After the absurd energy rates they had to pass through in 2019 (somewhere around $80/kWh), I'm amazed anyone still uses them. V/r Tim -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tim=mid.net@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2021 10:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts On 2/17/21 16:09, Ben Cannon wrote:
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-reta iler-griddys-unusual-plea-to-texas-customers-leave-now-before-you-get- a-big-bill/ <https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-ret ailer-griddys-unusual-plea-to-texas-customers-leave-now-before-you-get -a-big-bill/>
The power market in Texas has utterly failed.
Griddy aren't greedy. Pity about the grid. Mark.
Griddy's model makes sense for customers who have the ability to automatically shed load and switch remaining critical load to backup generation when wholesale prices spike above the cost of using the backup generation. Might also make sense if the minimum load after load shedding is small enough that $9/kWh is not going to break the budget. A 10 watt, 1000 lumen LED can run for 100 hours on 1 kWh. Customers without such load shedding and/or backup are taking the risk of possibly seeing $9/kWh (current TX cap?), assuming power is available at all. Do their customers understand the risk? It also appears Griddy is planning to roll out a 'price protection option' for customers. I guess that option probably will look similar to variable rate plans offered by other retail providers. On Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 12:19 Tim Burke <tim@mid.net> wrote:
CYA measure more than anything else, so Griddy can say they warned their customers that prices would be high when faced with chargebacks or bad press.
Based on past experience, they are just passing through actual electric costs and profiting off of a ~$10 membership fee. After the absurd energy rates they had to pass through in 2019 (somewhere around $80/kWh), I'm amazed anyone still uses them.
V/r Tim
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tim=mid.net@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2021 10:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Texas internet connectivity declining due to blackouts
On 2/17/21 16:09, Ben Cannon wrote:
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-reta iler-griddys-unusual-plea-to-texas-customers-leave-now-before-you-get- a-big-bill/ <https://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/2021/02/16/electricity-ret ailer-griddys-unusual-plea-to-texas-customers-leave-now-before-you-get -a-big-bill/>
The power market in Texas has utterly failed.
Griddy aren't greedy. Pity about the grid.
Mark.
Electric prices on the Texas spot market are $9,000/MWh. Normally they are less than $15/MWh. During the summer months, Texas spot market prices have gone to zero because it has excess summertime wind turbine capacity. I suspect those are computer generated artificial prices, because there is no excess capacity for sale. Sorta like the fake Amazon maketplace prices on out-of-stock products. Netblocks is now reporting Internet outages (about 70% availability) have expanded across northern Mexico due to Natural Gas shortages for power plants in Mexico because of the demand in Texas.
Can you let us know how you access the information you are seeing for Texas? I went to the website and can't find anything that allows me to actually view some data other than a twitter feed. On 2/15/2021 5:53 PM, Sean Donelan wrote:
Not as bad as Myanmar (14%), Internet connectivity in Texas has been declining today. According to NetBlocks, which normally monitors government imposed outages, reports network connectivity at 68% in Texas.
Texas operates a separate electric grid, with limited interconnections to the rest of North America. For political reasons....
For those with long memories, ENRON a Texas based corporation, once upon a time drove rolling blackouts across California in order to make billions.
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