Show NOCs: OIG report: Should you charge extra for NOC tours?
Department of Commerce OIG review of FirstNet request to tour AT&T GNOC https://www.oversight.gov/sites/default/files/oig-reports/DOC/OIG-21-016-I.p... Continued FirstNet Authority Management Attention is Needed to Address Control Environment Weaknesses [...] FirstNet Authority disagreed that the request for a GNOC tour “constituted a request for ‘additional contract services outside the scope of the contract.’” In its response, FirstNet Authority stated, “GNOC tours are not governed or limited by the [NPSBN] contract as these kinds of tours are commonplace for AT&T to provide to outside parties.” However, we found that the contractor only offers a multi-media presentation regarding the GNOC at its Corporate Briefing Center. FirstNet Authority requested a visit and tour of the GNOC, which is neither included in the contract nor offered widely to the public. We reaffirm that the tour was not in the contract and could be viewed as exerting indirect pressure for the contractor to perform unreimbursed services outside the contract. [...]
NOC tours seem like a very 1990's thing, that and 'datacenter tours'. "Oh you like seeing people at computers and you can't get enough of that at your home workplace?" "Oh, you also like cages? me too!! sometimes we put 'racks' in them... or heavens to gertrude! 'computers'!!" almost all of this seems like ... really not worth the time for external people to bother with. which is maybe why: "Sure, you wanna visit? pay me" (Oh, now you dont' want to visit? ok, cool!) On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:09 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Department of Commerce OIG review of FirstNet request to tour AT&T GNOC
https://www.oversight.gov/sites/default/files/oig-reports/DOC/OIG-21-016-I.p... Continued FirstNet Authority Management Attention is Needed to Address Control Environment Weaknesses
[...] FirstNet Authority disagreed that the request for a GNOC tour “constituted a request for ‘additional contract services outside the scope of the contract.’” In its response, FirstNet Authority stated, “GNOC tours are not governed or limited by the [NPSBN] contract as these kinds of tours are commonplace for AT&T to provide to outside parties.” However, we found that the contractor only offers a multi-media presentation regarding the GNOC at its Corporate Briefing Center. FirstNet Authority requested a visit and tour of the GNOC, which is neither included in the contract nor offered widely to the public. We reaffirm that the tour was not in the contract and could be viewed as exerting indirect pressure for the contractor to perform unreimbursed services outside the contract. [...]
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Christopher Morrow wrote:
almost all of this seems like ... really not worth the time for external people to bother with. which is maybe why: "Sure, you wanna visit? pay me" (Oh, now you dont' want to visit? ok, cool!)
I'm imagining a bunch of MBA's at large carriers thinking, gee the NOC is treated as a cost center. How can we make the NOC a profit center? I know -- Let's sell NOC tour tickets! On the other hand, NASA (or SpaceX) I would still go on a tour of Mission Control during a launch (geek out)
On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:36 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Christopher Morrow wrote:
almost all of this seems like ... really not worth the time for external people to bother with. which is maybe why: "Sure, you wanna visit? pay me" (Oh, now you dont' want to visit? ok, cool!)
I'm imagining a bunch of MBA's at large carriers thinking, gee the NOC is treated as a cost center. How can we make the NOC a profit center?
I know -- Let's sell NOC tour tickets!
yes, and really this ends up limiting the number of tours probably as an outcome, so win/win.
On the other hand, NASA (or SpaceX) I would still go on a tour of Mission Control during a launch (geek out)
once you pay a billion to send up some metal into space I figure you paid for the tour :)
Don’t dismiss and underestimate the curiousity and amazement of those who have not seen such things in person. In the San Francisco Bay Area and Silicon Valley area tourists come from around the world to see signs and parking lots of places like Google, Twitter, etc. it is easy for me to scoff at them, but I try not to. It is not really different than most other tourist attractions. Some are amazed and curious to see the largest ball of twine and some think it is ridiculous. Brandon Svec
On Jan 7, 2021, at 10:38 AM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Christopher Morrow wrote:
almost all of this seems like ... really not worth the time for external people to bother with. which is maybe why: "Sure, you wanna visit? pay me" (Oh, now you dont' want to visit? ok, cool!)
I'm imagining a bunch of MBA's at large carriers thinking, gee the NOC is treated as a cost center. How can we make the NOC a profit center?
I know -- Let's sell NOC tour tickets!
On the other hand, NASA (or SpaceX) I would still go on a tour of Mission Control during a launch (geek out)
The NOC tours at AT&T and Verizon are no joke. A datacenter NOC tour or a smaller carrier NOC tour, ehh Robert DeVita CEO & Founder 469-581-2160 469-441-8864 radevita@mejeticks.com www.mejeticks.com 3100 Carlisle St, 16-113, Dallas TX 75204 -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+radevita=mejeticks.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Brandon Svec Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:47 PM To: nanog list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Show NOCs: OIG report: Should you charge extra for NOC tours? Don’t dismiss and underestimate the curiousity and amazement of those who have not seen such things in person. In the San Francisco Bay Area and Silicon Valley area tourists come from around the world to see signs and parking lots of places like Google, Twitter, etc. it is easy for me to scoff at them, but I try not to. It is not really different than most other tourist attractions. Some are amazed and curious to see the largest ball of twine and some think it is ridiculous. Brandon Svec
On Jan 7, 2021, at 10:38 AM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Christopher Morrow wrote:
almost all of this seems like ... really not worth the time for external people to bother with. which is maybe why: "Sure, you wanna visit? pay me" (Oh, now you dont' want to visit? ok, cool!)
I'm imagining a bunch of MBA's at large carriers thinking, gee the NOC is treated as a cost center. How can we make the NOC a profit center?
I know -- Let's sell NOC tour tickets!
On the other hand, NASA (or SpaceX) I would still go on a tour of Mission Control during a launch (geek out)
On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:49 PM Brandon Svec <bsvec@teamonesolutions.com> wrote:
Don’t dismiss and underestimate the curiousity and amazement of those who have not seen such things in person.
Indeed. Not too long ago I was at the headquarters of an organization which runs some "critical infrastructure". In the lobby there are 5 or 6 racks behind glass, all lit up with pretty blue lights. The racks have a bunch of Dell servers, some multi-U copper switches, a couple of older routers, etc. The switch lights all go blinky blinky, and the cables are all suspiciously nicely dressed -- and in the very bottom of the last rack is an Ixia... Chatted with a friend who works there, and yup, the devices don't do anything at all, and the Ixia exists purely to make das blinkenlights blinken. The waste of power was quite sad, and we spent some time discussing how much work it would be to rip the insides out of all of the gear and replace it with some arduino controlled LED blinkers... and then we got sidetracked and had lunch instead... IIRC it was Foundry that had a few linecards that just had blinky LEDs for use at tradeshow? -- 'tis much lighter and cheaper to ship a chassis filled with LEDs than actual hardware... W
In the San Francisco Bay Area and Silicon Valley area tourists come from around the world to see signs and parking lots of places like Google, Twitter, etc. it is easy for me to scoff at them, but I try not to.
It is not really different than most other tourist attractions. Some are amazed and curious to see the largest ball of twine and some think it is ridiculous.
Brandon Svec
On Jan 7, 2021, at 10:38 AM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Christopher Morrow wrote:
almost all of this seems like ... really not worth the time for external people to bother with. which is maybe why: "Sure, you wanna visit? pay me" (Oh, now you dont' want to visit? ok, cool!)
I'm imagining a bunch of MBA's at large carriers thinking, gee the NOC is treated as a cost center. How can we make the NOC a profit center?
I know -- Let's sell NOC tour tickets!
On the other hand, NASA (or SpaceX) I would still go on a tour of Mission Control during a launch (geek out)
-- The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get confused by the complexities of his own making. -- E. W. Dijkstra
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Svec" <bsvec@teamonesolutions.com>
It is not really different than most other tourist attractions. Some are amazed and curious to see the largest ball of twine
Those would be people who *don't* do this for a living, mostly...
and some think it is ridiculous.
Those would be people who *do* this for a living, mostly. Cheers, -- jr 'Though I'll always take a tour' a -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 23:35:06 +0000, "Jay R. Ashworth" said:
From: "Brandon Svec" <bsvec@teamonesolutions.com> It is not really different than most other tourist attractions. Some are amazed and curious to see the largest ball of twine Those would be people who *don't* do this for a living, mostly... and some think it is ridiculous. Those would be people who *do* this for a living, mostly.
I could go "meh" about a NOC tour itself. On the other hand, I can think of a number of providers where buying the right person a beer would be significantly enlightening. :)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Valdis Klētnieks" <valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu>
On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 23:35:06 +0000, "Jay R. Ashworth" said:
From: "Brandon Svec" <bsvec@teamonesolutions.com> It is not really different than most other tourist attractions. Some are amazed and curious to see the largest ball of twine Those would be people who *don't* do this for a living, mostly... and some think it is ridiculous. Those would be people who *do* this for a living, mostly.
I could go "meh" about a NOC tour itself. On the other hand, I can think of a number of providers where buying the right person a beer would be significantly enlightening. :)
About 10 years ago now, I had a client whose project enabled/required me to go tour the big 6 or 7 colo providers in Tampa; we ended up in Park Tower at eSolutions, now owned by WOW. (Very nicely run, though I don't know if Arrin is still running it; they operated the carrier hotel in Tampa as well, so...) As you imply, while the tours were nice, the more important thing was that they were *given by exactly the guy you wanted to know better*. And by the end of the tour, if you'd asked good questions, you'd established both his bonafides... and your own. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
I’m lucky enough to give hundreds of people their literal first look at “the internet” - and I can tell you, in many cases, it blows their minds. Honestly watching people’s eyes light up when they see all this, or hold a bare glass optical fiber in their hand, has got to be one of the very best parts of this whole gig. Lest we grow too accustomed to the technology that profoundly changed my life around age 8 or so. Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC CEO ben@6by7.net "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the world.” FCC License KJ6FJJ Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.
On Jan 7, 2021, at 10:34 AM, Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
NOC tours seem like a very 1990's thing, that and 'datacenter tours'.
"Oh you like seeing people at computers and you can't get enough of that at your home workplace?" "Oh, you also like cages? me too!! sometimes we put 'racks' in them... or heavens to gertrude! 'computers'!!"
almost all of this seems like ... really not worth the time for external people to bother with. which is maybe why: "Sure, you wanna visit? pay me" (Oh, now you dont' want to visit? ok, cool!)
On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:09 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Department of Commerce OIG review of FirstNet request to tour AT&T GNOC
https://www.oversight.gov/sites/default/files/oig-reports/DOC/OIG-21-016-I.p... Continued FirstNet Authority Management Attention is Needed to Address Control Environment Weaknesses
[...] FirstNet Authority disagreed that the request for a GNOC tour “constituted a request for ‘additional contract services outside the scope of the contract.’” In its response, FirstNet Authority stated, “GNOC tours are not governed or limited by the [NPSBN] contract as these kinds of tours are commonplace for AT&T to provide to outside parties.” However, we found that the contractor only offers a multi-media presentation regarding the GNOC at its Corporate Briefing Center. FirstNet Authority requested a visit and tour of the GNOC, which is neither included in the contract nor offered widely to the public. We reaffirm that the tour was not in the contract and could be viewed as exerting indirect pressure for the contractor to perform unreimbursed services outside the contract. [...]
I'd venture to say that anyone touring the facility of an industry they're not familiar with, but intrigued by, would be fascinating to them (e.g. SpaceX mission control as previously mentioned). Likewise, touring facilities of your same industry could be boring. I'm sure many of us have sunk HOURS into episodes of *How It's Made *which is really nothing more than a virtual factory tour; but I'm sure the workers there would feel the same way about touring other factories as we do about touring NOCs/DCs. For businessy types who trade in data centers/NOC, but don't interact frequently, I'm sure tours can be both fascinating and informative. -Matt On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:57 PM Ben Cannon <ben@6by7.net> wrote:
I’m lucky enough to give hundreds of people their literal first look at “the internet” - and I can tell you, in many cases, it blows their minds.
Honestly watching people’s eyes light up when they see all this, or hold a bare glass optical fiber in their hand, has got to be one of the very best parts of this whole gig.
Lest we grow too accustomed to the technology that profoundly changed my life around age 8 or so.
Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC CEO ben@6by7.net "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the world.”
FCC License KJ6FJJ
Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.
On Jan 7, 2021, at 10:34 AM, Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
NOC tours seem like a very 1990's thing, that and 'datacenter tours'.
"Oh you like seeing people at computers and you can't get enough of that at your home workplace?" "Oh, you also like cages? me too!! sometimes we put 'racks' in them... or heavens to gertrude! 'computers'!!"
almost all of this seems like ... really not worth the time for external people to bother with. which is maybe why: "Sure, you wanna visit? pay me" (Oh, now you dont' want to visit? ok, cool!)
On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:09 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Department of Commerce OIG review of FirstNet request to tour AT&T GNOC
https://www.oversight.gov/sites/default/files/oig-reports/DOC/OIG-21-016-I.p...
Continued FirstNet Authority Management Attention is Needed to Address
Control Environment Weaknesses
[...]
FirstNet Authority disagreed that the request for a GNOC tour “constituted
a request for ‘additional contract services outside the scope of the
contract.’” In its response, FirstNet Authority stated, “GNOC tours are
not governed or limited by the [NPSBN] contract as these kinds of tours
are commonplace for AT&T to provide to outside parties.” However, we
found that the contractor only offers a multi-media presentation regarding
the GNOC at its Corporate Briefing Center. FirstNet Authority requested a
visit and tour of the GNOC, which is neither included in the contract nor
offered widely to the public. We reaffirm that the tour was not in the
contract and could be viewed as exerting indirect pressure for the
contractor to perform unreimbursed services outside the contract.
[...]
-- Matt Erculiani ERCUL-ARIN
participants (11)
-
Ben Cannon -
Bill Woodcock -
Brandon Svec -
Christopher Morrow -
Jay R. Ashworth -
Matt Erculiani -
Robert DeVita -
Sean Donelan -
Seth Mattinen -
Valdis Klētnieks -
Warren Kumari