Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too. I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users. I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question. -Daniel
The Cable TV List (http://cabletvlist.com/) doesn't get much traffic, but it does have some quality people on it that can answer most CATV questions. It is heavily weighted on the TV side, so most things are related to transport gear, IRDs, and distribution equipment. I am unaware of any DOCSIS specific mailing lists, but if anyone out there does know of one I would like to know about it as well. On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
-- *Ben Hatton* Network Engineer Haefele TV Inc. bhatton@htva.net www.htva.net
Don't believe they have a mailing list, but this is a good source for technical issues on the modem/cmts side. Very helpful forum. Pulled me out of the weeds a couple of times. www.docsis.org. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Hatton" <bhatton@htva.net> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 8:53:36 AM Subject: Re: Cable Operator List The Cable TV List (http://cabletvlist.com/) doesn't get much traffic, but it does have some quality people on it that can answer most CATV questions. It is heavily weighted on the TV side, so most things are related to transport gear, IRDs, and distribution equipment. I am unaware of any DOCSIS specific mailing lists, but if anyone out there does know of one I would like to know about it as well. On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
-- *Ben Hatton* Network Engineer Haefele TV Inc. bhatton@htva.net www.htva.net
On Tue, Feb 02, 2016 at 08:53:36AM -0500, Benjamin Hatton wrote:
The Cable TV List (http://cabletvlist.com/) doesn't get much traffic, but it does have some quality people on it that can answer most CATV questions. It is heavily weighted on the TV side, so most things are related to transport gear, IRDs, and distribution equipment. I am unaware of any DOCSIS specific mailing lists, but if anyone out there does know of one I would like to know about it as well.
In the past I was asked to create the cisco-ubr list to cover some of these types of things. https://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-ubr/ I can create a catv or similar list easily. good name suggestions welcome. - jared -- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from jared@puck.nether.net clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
On Tue, Feb 02, 2016 at 02:26:14PM +0000, Nick Hilliard wrote:
Jared Mauch wrote:
I can create a catv or similar list easily. good name suggestions welcome.
"There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things".
docsis-nsp?
Done. https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/docsis-nsp - Jared -- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from jared@puck.nether.net clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 14:26:14 +0000, Nick Hilliard said:
Jared Mauch wrote:
I can create a catv or similar list easily. good name suggestions welcome.
"There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things".
They're only hard because all *other* problems in CS are solved by adding a layer of redirection....
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are. We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires. So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution. Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with. So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000. On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
Colton, It really depends on what features you are after. I've demo'd one of the small 1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work. For us though it was a non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it. If all you are after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital, Vecima, Sumavision, as well as others. Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either only support, or are more often meant to support layer 2 operations where the routing happens upstream from the CMTS. Graham Johnston Network Planner Westman Communications Group 204.717.2829 johnstong@westmancom.com think green; don't print this email. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM To: Daniel Corbe Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: Cable Operator List Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are. We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires. So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution. Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with. So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000. On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
Graham, What is DSG? Yes, I am really looking for a CMTS to perform layer 2 just as our DSLAMs and GPON do today. All layer 3 will be upstream. I would want to handle DHCP upstream, but have the CMTS insert Option 82 if that is a feature. Not sure what specific CMTS stuff you need. On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Graham Johnston <johnstong@westmancom.com> wrote:
Colton,
It really depends on what features you are after. I've demo'd one of the small 1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work. For us though it was a non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it. If all you are after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital, Vecima, Sumavision, as well as others. Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either only support, or are more often meant to support layer 2 operations where the routing happens upstream from the CMTS.
Graham Johnston Network Planner Westman Communications Group 204.717.2829 johnstong@westmancom.com think green; don't print this email.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM To: Daniel Corbe Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are.
We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires.
So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with.
So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
Colton, You're only going to find very small, old, or not certified (usually still very small) CMTSs that only do layer 2. All of the major vendors are doing layer 3 because we've found out over time that not doing it is more problematic. Having said that, if you're looking for a more ONT/DSLAM type of install there is a new type of CMTSs that look at lot like traditional telco DLC/BLC deployments. https://intx15.ncta.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/17-Remote-PHY.pdf The remote PHY+MAC boxes are basically mini-CMTSs and they typically rely on something upstream handling layer 3. The remote PHY boxes are different as they don't even do a complete layer 2 and instead forward DOCSIS frames back to a centralized CMTS/CCAP. Scott Helms Chief Technology Officer ZCorum (678) 507-5000 -------------------------------- http://twitter.com/kscotthelms -------------------------------- On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Graham,
What is DSG? Yes, I am really looking for a CMTS to perform layer 2 just as our DSLAMs and GPON do today. All layer 3 will be upstream. I would want to handle DHCP upstream, but have the CMTS insert Option 82 if that is a feature. Not sure what specific CMTS stuff you need.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Graham Johnston <johnstong@westmancom.com> wrote:
Colton,
It really depends on what features you are after. I've demo'd one of the small 1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work. For us though it was a non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it. If all you are after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital, Vecima, Sumavision, as well as others. Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either only support, or are more often meant to support layer 2 operations where the routing happens upstream from the CMTS.
Graham Johnston Network Planner Westman Communications Group 204.717.2829 johnstong@westmancom.com think green; don't print this email.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM To: Daniel Corbe Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are.
We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires.
So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with.
So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and
wrote: providing
content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
Hi Colton, For what it sounds like you’re really looking for, a remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) would probably be the good fit for your application. This is certainly not an endorsement, as we haven’t used any remote MAC-PHY devices today. There are a couple players pouring money into products that haven’t really been mentioned yet... 1) Huawei - which initially brought a mini CMTS to market (D3.0, 16x4.) Some C-DOCSIS stuff, so may be feature poor but it doesn’t sound like you really need the boatload of features that are in a classic full-size CMTS anyway. Not sure what’s going on with their D3.1 remote MAC-PHY general availability is either. 2) Gainspeed - D3.0/D3.1 product (not sure about where the generally availability of their product lines are) but if you happen to be a Juniper customer, they partner with Gainspeed so it can be easy to get engaged with them. Ed On 2/2/16, 11:03 AM, "NANOG on behalf of Scott Helms" <nanog-bounces@nanog.org on behalf of khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Colton,
You're only going to find very small, old, or not certified (usually still very small) CMTSs that only do layer 2. All of the major vendors are doing layer 3 because we've found out over time that not doing it is more problematic. Having said that, if you're looking for a more ONT/DSLAM type of install there is a new type of CMTSs that look at lot like traditional telco DLC/BLC deployments.
https://intx15.ncta.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/17-Remote-PHY.pdf
The remote PHY+MAC boxes are basically mini-CMTSs and they typically rely on something upstream handling layer 3. The remote PHY boxes are different as they don't even do a complete layer 2 and instead forward DOCSIS frames back to a centralized CMTS/CCAP.
Scott Helms Chief Technology Officer ZCorum (678) 507-5000 -------------------------------- http://twitter.com/kscotthelms --------------------------------
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Graham,
What is DSG? Yes, I am really looking for a CMTS to perform layer 2 just as our DSLAMs and GPON do today. All layer 3 will be upstream. I would want to handle DHCP upstream, but have the CMTS insert Option 82 if that is a feature. Not sure what specific CMTS stuff you need.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Graham Johnston <johnstong@westmancom.com> wrote:
Colton,
It really depends on what features you are after. I've demo'd one of the small 1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work. For us though it was a non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it. If all you are after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital, Vecima, Sumavision, as well as others. Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either only support, or are more often meant to support layer 2 operations where the routing happens upstream from the CMTS.
Graham Johnston Network Planner Westman Communications Group 204.717.2829 johnstong@westmancom.com think green; don't print this email.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM To: Daniel Corbe Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are.
We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires.
So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with.
So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and
wrote: providing
content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
56k's for everyone! Lets bring the #OldInternet back! On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Colton,
You're only going to find very small, old, or not certified (usually still very small) CMTSs that only do layer 2. All of the major vendors are doing layer 3 because we've found out over time that not doing it is more problematic. Having said that, if you're looking for a more ONT/DSLAM type of install there is a new type of CMTSs that look at lot like traditional telco DLC/BLC deployments.
https://intx15.ncta.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/17-Remote-PHY.pdf
The remote PHY+MAC boxes are basically mini-CMTSs and they typically rely on something upstream handling layer 3. The remote PHY boxes are different as they don't even do a complete layer 2 and instead forward DOCSIS frames back to a centralized CMTS/CCAP.
Scott Helms Chief Technology Officer ZCorum (678) 507-5000 -------------------------------- http://twitter.com/kscotthelms --------------------------------
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Graham,
What is DSG? Yes, I am really looking for a CMTS to perform layer 2 just as our DSLAMs and GPON do today. All layer 3 will be upstream. I would want to handle DHCP upstream, but have the CMTS insert Option 82 if that is a feature. Not sure what specific CMTS stuff you need.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Graham Johnston < johnstong@westmancom.com> wrote:
Colton,
It really depends on what features you are after. I've demo'd one of the small 1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work. For us though it was a non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it. If all you are after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital, Vecima, Sumavision, as well as others. Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either only support, or are more often meant to support layer 2 operations where the routing happens upstream from the CMTS.
Graham Johnston Network Planner Westman Communications Group 204.717.2829 johnstong@westmancom.com think green; don't print this email.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM To: Daniel Corbe Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are.
We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires.
So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with.
So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and
wrote: providing
content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
-- // jamie rishaw // "*My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."* - the 14th Dalai Lama; བསྟན་འཛིན་རྒྱ་མཚོ་
DSG=Docsis Set-Top Gateway. It is a more modern implementation of the command and control communications path that tradition video set-top boxes used. Graham Johnston Network Planner Westman Communications Group 204.717.2829 johnstong@westmancom.com<mailto:johnstong@westmancom.com> P think green; don't print this email. From: Colton Conor [mailto:colton.conor@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 9:44 AM To: Graham Johnston Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: Cable Operator List Graham, What is DSG? Yes, I am really looking for a CMTS to perform layer 2 just as our DSLAMs and GPON do today. All layer 3 will be upstream. I would want to handle DHCP upstream, but have the CMTS insert Option 82 if that is a feature. Not sure what specific CMTS stuff you need. On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Graham Johnston <johnstong@westmancom.com<mailto:johnstong@westmancom.com>> wrote: Colton, It really depends on what features you are after. I've demo'd one of the small 1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work. For us though it was a non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it. If all you are after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital, Vecima, Sumavision, as well as others. Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either only support, or are more often meant to support layer 2 operations where the routing happens upstream from the CMTS. Graham Johnston Network Planner Westman Communications Group 204.717.2829<tel:204.717.2829> johnstong@westmancom.com<mailto:johnstong@westmancom.com> • think green; don't print this email. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org>] On Behalf Of Colton Conor Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM To: Daniel Corbe Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: Cable Operator List Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are. We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires. So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution. Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with. So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000. On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com<mailto:dcorbe@hammerfiber.com>> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com<mailto:colton.conor@gmail.com>> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
Hey Colton, We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and colocating them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then connecting them by metro ethernet. We’ve had great successes so far with this model. There’s lots of CMTS vendors. There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the lack of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software releases. If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to relicense your downstream and upstream channels at some additional arbitrary fixed cost. I’m personally fond of these things: http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the box supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are less than 4 grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to just spam everywhere. Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too: http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/eur... As does Harmonics: http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is price and firmware features. Then there’s Cisco. The UBR is a popular platform. And pretty soon there’s going to be a glut of UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR platform. Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the BSR: http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/
On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are.
We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires.
So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with.
So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
Daniel, Thanks for the wealth of information. What kind of speeds are you offering? How many customers are you putting on one of these boxes? What modems are you using? I would honestly perfer something that was hardened for outdoor use. Think garden style apartments. What is the best for something like that? Comparing DOCIS 3 to VDSL2, the modems and CMTS appear to be more cost effective per customer. G.FAST I have not seen pricing on, but I expect it to be more than VDSL2. Any reasons not to use EURO DOCSIS in the USA? Looks like it offers more speeds by using fatter channels. We don't plan on offering TV, but even if we did couldn't we just start the channels at a higher range, and still use EURO DOCSIS? On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
Hey Colton,
We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and colocating them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then connecting them by metro ethernet. We’ve had great successes so far with this model.
There’s lots of CMTS vendors.
There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the lack of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software releases. If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to relicense your downstream and upstream channels at some additional arbitrary fixed cost.
I’m personally fond of these things:
http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a
You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the box supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are less than 4 grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to just spam everywhere.
Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too:
http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/eur...
As does Harmonics:
http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo
All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is price and firmware features.
Then there’s Cisco.
The UBR is a popular platform. And pretty soon there’s going to be a glut of UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR platform.
Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the BSR:
http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/
On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are.
We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires.
So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with.
So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
The biggest reason to not do EuroDOCSIS is logistics and dealing with various TAC organizations versus a pretty small increase in per channel performance (but not per hertz). I'd pretty strongly recommend against it, just because you're going to run into issues ranging from buying modems, to dealing with node vendors, to finding people who can do basic stuff like plant balancing. You wouldn't think it would matter, but it throws people off to see that extra channel bandwidth. My 2 cents, buy CMTS/CCAP gear that's upgradeable to D3.1, ie CBR8, E6000, or the big Casa unit, for the time being shoot for 24 channel downstream bonding groups (24 * ~37mbps - overhead) which yields about 740 mbps usable. That's plenty for most nodes, especially since you're not offering video you can have many bonding groups since channel space isn't a problem. Scott Helms Chief Technology Officer ZCorum (678) 507-5000 -------------------------------- http://twitter.com/kscotthelms -------------------------------- On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Daniel,
Thanks for the wealth of information. What kind of speeds are you offering? How many customers are you putting on one of these boxes? What modems are you using?
I would honestly perfer something that was hardened for outdoor use. Think garden style apartments. What is the best for something like that?
Comparing DOCIS 3 to VDSL2, the modems and CMTS appear to be more cost effective per customer. G.FAST I have not seen pricing on, but I expect it to be more than VDSL2.
Any reasons not to use EURO DOCSIS in the USA? Looks like it offers more speeds by using fatter channels. We don't plan on offering TV, but even if we did couldn't we just start the channels at a higher range, and still use EURO DOCSIS?
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
Hey Colton,
We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and colocating them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then connecting them by metro ethernet. We’ve had great successes so far with this model.
There’s lots of CMTS vendors.
There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the lack of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software releases. If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to relicense your downstream and upstream channels at some additional arbitrary fixed cost.
I’m personally fond of these things:
http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a
You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the box supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are less than 4 grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to just spam everywhere.
Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too:
http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/eur...
As does Harmonics:
http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo
All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is price and firmware features.
Then there’s Cisco.
The UBR is a popular platform. And pretty soon there’s going to be a
of UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR
glut platform.
Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the BSR:
http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/
On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
wrote:
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to
know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are.
We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone
wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires.
So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the
specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis
based system to feed an entire town with.
So far I have found the
http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com>
wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com>
wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
Scott Helms wrote:
My 2 cents, buy CMTS/CCAP gear that's upgradeable to D3.1, ie CBR8, E6000, or the big Casa unit, for the time being shoot for 24 channel downstream bonding groups (24 * ~37mbps - overhead) which yields about 740 mbps usable.
the good thing about eurodocsis is that it gives you a full 1gig usable if you're bonding over 24 channels. There's a natural residential performance plateau at 1G because 10G NICs haven't really made it to the consumer level yet, which means that if you want to hand off > 1gbit, things become more expensive and/or more complicated. Nick
Nick, That very small upside for an extreme downside. Trying to hire someone to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA. I have customers in Europe who decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local "flavor". Scott Helms Chief Technology Officer ZCorum (678) 507-5000 -------------------------------- http://twitter.com/kscotthelms -------------------------------- On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:
Scott Helms wrote:
My 2 cents, buy CMTS/CCAP gear that's upgradeable to D3.1, ie CBR8, E6000, or the big Casa unit, for the time being shoot for 24 channel downstream bonding groups (24 * ~37mbps - overhead) which yields about 740 mbps usable.
the good thing about eurodocsis is that it gives you a full 1gig usable if you're bonding over 24 channels. There's a natural residential performance plateau at 1G because 10G NICs haven't really made it to the consumer level yet, which means that if you want to hand off > 1gbit, things become more expensive and/or more complicated.
Nick
Scott Helms wrote:
That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
... if your plant is in the US.
I have customers in Europe who decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local "flavor".
as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe. 3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises. Nick
Nick, Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree wholeheartedly. I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG. That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is getting us to unified channelization. Scott Helms wrote:
That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
... if your plant is in the US.
I have customers in Europe who decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local "flavor".
as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe. 3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises. Nick
Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the channel width. So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do. Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side. Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16 units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that most all of the garden style properties have both the phone and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the heat exposure makes sense. A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these? On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Nick,
Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree wholeheartedly. I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is getting us to unified channelization. Scott Helms wrote:
That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
... if your plant is in the US.
I have customers in Europe who decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local "flavor".
as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
Nick
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the channel width.
I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier. The problem is that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from being heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and earlier modems have fixed filters. What that means is that a EuroDOCSIS modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the reverse is NOT true. In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because you'll see much more upstream leakage.
So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do. Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY. That's the only way you're going to get a good price point and decent performance unless you want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea right now. A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty cheap, but it's centralized CMTS that would cover ~3k subs.
Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16 units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that most all of the garden style properties have both the phone and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the heat exposure makes sense.
A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
In no particular order, Arris is or will be, Teleste (Euro vendor trying to break into the US), Sumavision, Altera, and ton more I can't remember. Come to one of the SCTE shows (it's in Philadelphia this year) if you want to be deluged with them :)
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Nick,
Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree wholeheartedly. I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is getting us to unified channelization. Scott Helms wrote:
That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
... if your plant is in the US.
I have customers in Europe who decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local "flavor".
as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
Nick
Is a remote MAC+PHY the same thing as a Distributed Converged Cable Access Platform (D-CCAP) solution like Huawei is pushing? Is DOCSIS 3.1 even out, or am I looking for something that does not exist yet? Are these remote MAC+PHY devices in the under 10K price range that these smaller all in one CMTS platforms are? On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the channel width.
I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier. The problem is that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from being heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and earlier modems have fixed filters. What that means is that a EuroDOCSIS modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the reverse is NOT true. In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because you'll see much more upstream leakage.
So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do. Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY. That's the only way you're going to get a good price point and decent performance unless you want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea right now. A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty cheap, but it's centralized CMTS that would cover ~3k subs.
Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16 units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that most all of the garden style properties have both the phone and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the heat exposure makes sense.
A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
In no particular order, Arris is or will be, Teleste (Euro vendor trying to break into the US), Sumavision, Altera, and ton more I can't remember. Come to one of the SCTE shows (it's in Philadelphia this year) if you want to be deluged with them :)
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Nick,
Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree wholeheartedly. I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is getting us to unified channelization. Scott Helms wrote:
That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
... if your plant is in the US.
I have customers in Europe who decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local "flavor".
as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
Nick
Colton, D3.1 gear is just coming online right now. If you're going to go with the smaller PHY+MAC approach I'd just make sure the company has plans to update their boxes to 3.1 in a decent (your judgement) amount of time. Don't expect any 3.0 box to be software upgradeable to 3.1, the hardware is quite different. The PHY+MAC boxes are _generally_ < $10k and some are talking about ~6k. All the vendors we've listed so far have plans for 3.1, but I don't have a timeline for any of them. Right now the market is still trying to decide how modular CMTS will be rolled out, remote PHY, remote MAC+PHY, or a combination. For example, Cisco is (for the moment) betting that remote PHY economics will be compelling for the larger operators, while Arris is doing both approaches. Scott Helms Chief Technology Officer ZCorum (678) 507-5000 -------------------------------- http://twitter.com/kscotthelms -------------------------------- On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Is a remote MAC+PHY the same thing as a Distributed Converged Cable Access Platform (D-CCAP) solution like Huawei is pushing? Is DOCSIS 3.1 even out, or am I looking for something that does not exist yet?
Are these remote MAC+PHY devices in the under 10K price range that these smaller all in one CMTS platforms are?
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the channel width.
I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier. The problem is that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from being heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and earlier modems have fixed filters. What that means is that a EuroDOCSIS modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the reverse is NOT true. In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because you'll see much more upstream leakage.
So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do. Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY. That's the only way you're going to get a good price point and decent performance unless you want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea right now. A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty cheap, but it's centralized CMTS that would cover ~3k subs.
Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16 units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that most all of the garden style properties have both the phone and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the heat exposure makes sense.
A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
In no particular order, Arris is or will be, Teleste (Euro vendor trying to break into the US), Sumavision, Altera, and ton more I can't remember. Come to one of the SCTE shows (it's in Philadelphia this year) if you want to be deluged with them :)
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Nick,
Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree wholeheartedly. I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is getting us to unified channelization. Scott Helms wrote:
That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
... if your plant is in the US.
I have customers in Europe who decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local "flavor".
as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
Nick
Scott, Have any idea which exact vendors and model numbers are within this price range? So far I have just found mini CMTS systems like the Pico and Harmonic's. Both of these are a 16x4 configuration, but no mention of remote MAC+PHY nor DOSIS 3.1. Then their is Huawei's solution, but still I think that's more based on C-DOCSIS. Searching the vendors websites you recommended show no results for remote MAC+PHY in a small format. On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Colton,
D3.1 gear is just coming online right now. If you're going to go with the smaller PHY+MAC approach I'd just make sure the company has plans to update their boxes to 3.1 in a decent (your judgement) amount of time. Don't expect any 3.0 box to be software upgradeable to 3.1, the hardware is quite different. The PHY+MAC boxes are _generally_ < $10k and some are talking about ~6k.
All the vendors we've listed so far have plans for 3.1, but I don't have a timeline for any of them. Right now the market is still trying to decide how modular CMTS will be rolled out, remote PHY, remote MAC+PHY, or a combination. For example, Cisco is (for the moment) betting that remote PHY economics will be compelling for the larger operators, while Arris is doing both approaches.
Scott Helms Chief Technology Officer ZCorum (678) 507-5000 -------------------------------- http://twitter.com/kscotthelms --------------------------------
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Is a remote MAC+PHY the same thing as a Distributed Converged Cable Access Platform (D-CCAP) solution like Huawei is pushing? Is DOCSIS 3.1 even out, or am I looking for something that does not exist yet?
Are these remote MAC+PHY devices in the under 10K price range that these smaller all in one CMTS platforms are?
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the channel width.
I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier. The problem is that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from being heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and earlier modems have fixed filters. What that means is that a EuroDOCSIS modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the reverse is NOT true. In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because you'll see much more upstream leakage.
So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do. Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY. That's the only way you're going to get a good price point and decent performance unless you want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea right now. A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty cheap, but it's centralized CMTS that would cover ~3k subs.
Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16 units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that most all of the garden style properties have both the phone and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the heat exposure makes sense.
A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
In no particular order, Arris is or will be, Teleste (Euro vendor trying to break into the US), Sumavision, Altera, and ton more I can't remember. Come to one of the SCTE shows (it's in Philadelphia this year) if you want to be deluged with them :)
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Nick,
Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree wholeheartedly. I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is getting us to unified channelization. Scott Helms wrote:
That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
... if your plant is in the US.
I have customers in Europe who decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local "flavor".
as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
Nick
Colton, Huawai has one, but I can't find the product page on their site off hand. Here's one from Sumavision: http://en.sumavision.com/product.asp?pageID=28&ID=712 Harmonic's small form factor CMTS is remote PHY+MAC (at least the strand mounted version is) but keep in mind that they've been primarily selling those boxes (especially the indoor version) to MDU operators that don't really have out side plant so they don't market it that way. Casa is working with Teleste on remote PHY (I don't think it's got full layer 2 in it). Gainspeed also has a solution: http://www.gainspeed.com/our-solution/gainspeeds-virtual-ccap-architecture/ Also, keep in mind that no one is going to be yelling about D3.1 until they have the capability and none of the CCAPs do today. As painful as it is you're probably going to have to talk to some sales folks to get the most up to date info. Scott Helms Chief Technology Officer ZCorum (678) 507-5000 -------------------------------- http://twitter.com/kscotthelms -------------------------------- On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Scott,
Have any idea which exact vendors and model numbers are within this price range? So far I have just found mini CMTS systems like the Pico and Harmonic's. Both of these are a 16x4 configuration, but no mention of remote MAC+PHY nor DOSIS 3.1. Then their is Huawei's solution, but still I think that's more based on C-DOCSIS. Searching the vendors websites you recommended show no results for remote MAC+PHY in a small format.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Colton,
D3.1 gear is just coming online right now. If you're going to go with the smaller PHY+MAC approach I'd just make sure the company has plans to update their boxes to 3.1 in a decent (your judgement) amount of time. Don't expect any 3.0 box to be software upgradeable to 3.1, the hardware is quite different. The PHY+MAC boxes are _generally_ < $10k and some are talking about ~6k.
All the vendors we've listed so far have plans for 3.1, but I don't have a timeline for any of them. Right now the market is still trying to decide how modular CMTS will be rolled out, remote PHY, remote MAC+PHY, or a combination. For example, Cisco is (for the moment) betting that remote PHY economics will be compelling for the larger operators, while Arris is doing both approaches.
Scott Helms Chief Technology Officer ZCorum (678) 507-5000 -------------------------------- http://twitter.com/kscotthelms --------------------------------
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Is a remote MAC+PHY the same thing as a Distributed Converged Cable Access Platform (D-CCAP) solution like Huawei is pushing? Is DOCSIS 3.1 even out, or am I looking for something that does not exist yet?
Are these remote MAC+PHY devices in the under 10K price range that these smaller all in one CMTS platforms are?
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the channel width.
I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier. The problem is that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from being heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and earlier modems have fixed filters. What that means is that a EuroDOCSIS modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the reverse is NOT true. In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because you'll see much more upstream leakage.
So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do. Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY. That's the only way you're going to get a good price point and decent performance unless you want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea right now. A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty cheap, but it's centralized CMTS that would cover ~3k subs.
Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16 units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that most all of the garden style properties have both the phone and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the heat exposure makes sense.
A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
In no particular order, Arris is or will be, Teleste (Euro vendor trying to break into the US), Sumavision, Altera, and ton more I can't remember. Come to one of the SCTE shows (it's in Philadelphia this year) if you want to be deluged with them :)
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Nick,
Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree wholeheartedly. I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is getting us to unified channelization. Scott Helms wrote: > That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone > to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying > amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
... if your plant is in the US.
> I have customers in Europe who > decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the > local "flavor".
as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
Nick
Scott, I was able to find the Huawie solution: http://www.huawei.com/ucmf/groups/public/documents/webasset/hw_415387.pdf Looks like its 32x4 capable today, and software upgradeable to DOCSIS 3.1 which is nice. Appears to also have a 10G uplink port on it. Seems like the best solution tech spec wise I have seen so far. And probably cheap too! The Sumavision one you linked to seems to be a 16X4 version, but future improved to 32 channels DS and 10 channels US. Future improved to DOCSIS 3.1 Not sure if that means the hardware is already capable and just a software upgrade or what. I assume the Harmonic box you are mentioning is the is the NSG Exo: http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo According to specs its only a 16x4 unit today. I don't think you can upgrade to greater than 16x4 since there is only a gig-e uplink. I see no mention of DOCSIS 3.1. The stand (outdoor version) seems to be the same as the indoor. The indoor version of the NSG EXO spec wise looks identical to the PICO Digital miniCMTS200a. According to Daniel Corbe these two units use the same chipset (along with the Blonder Tongue CMTS: http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/eur...) Based on pricing I have seen so far, the Pico is the cheapest. Harmonic is a little more, and Blonder Tongue is a bit more than Harmonic. Out of these three I would assume Harmonic is the most reputable? I have not heard anything back from gainspeed. Based on the info on their website, I am not positive they have an actual product released yet. Not mentioned so far are Arris and Cisco. Any idea if either of these vendors has a small and low cost model?
Colton, Arris has plans to release a remote PHY+MAC box but I don't think they have released anything but their plans. John Chapman said last year at SCTE that Cisco was going down the remote PHY only path because they think that will be the most cost effective way for large MSOs to deploy MHAv2. Scott Helms Chief Technology Officer ZCorum (678) 507-5000 -------------------------------- http://twitter.com/kscotthelms -------------------------------- On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 7:48 PM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Scott,
I was able to find the Huawie solution: http://www.huawei.com/ucmf/groups/public/documents/webasset/hw_415387.pdf Looks like its 32x4 capable today, and software upgradeable to DOCSIS 3.1 which is nice. Appears to also have a 10G uplink port on it. Seems like the best solution tech spec wise I have seen so far. And probably cheap too!
The Sumavision one you linked to seems to be a 16X4 version, but future improved to 32 channels DS and 10 channels US. Future improved to DOCSIS 3.1 Not sure if that means the hardware is already capable and just a software upgrade or what.
I assume the Harmonic box you are mentioning is the is the NSG Exo: http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo According to specs its only a 16x4 unit today. I don't think you can upgrade to greater than 16x4 since there is only a gig-e uplink. I see no mention of DOCSIS 3.1. The stand (outdoor version) seems to be the same as the indoor.
The indoor version of the NSG EXO spec wise looks identical to the PICO Digital miniCMTS200a. According to Daniel Corbe these two units use the same chipset (along with the Blonder Tongue CMTS: http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/eur...) Based on pricing I have seen so far, the Pico is the cheapest. Harmonic is a little more, and Blonder Tongue is a bit more than Harmonic. Out of these three I would assume Harmonic is the most reputable?
I have not heard anything back from gainspeed. Based on the info on their website, I am not positive they have an actual product released yet.
Not mentioned so far are Arris and Cisco. Any idea if either of these vendors has a small and low cost model?
I'm in the middle of pulling some Cisco 7246VXR-UBR's (antiques) and replacing them with the Huawei D-CMTS devices. From what I understand of your needs, the Huawei devices will do what you are looking for. We are running 8x4, but can upgrade the licenses to 24x4 if we need the bandwidth, although at that point you will be more limited by the gig uplink. I'm designing them to not serve more than 250 customers per cmts and they are running a single vlan on the cable side back to an ISC DHCP server with very simple config files served via tftp. This allows me to group the CMTS's for reasonably efficient use of IP. Have not done IP6 on these yet, but will fairly soon. They are actually designed to run as a ONT from the Huawei OLT (GPON), but will also accept a standard SFP and run off ethernet (that's how I'm doing it). Compared to the other small CMTS's I looked at these are hard to beat. they are Hardened and can be mounted anywhere. The config to do what I'm using them for is really simple (I'm a big believer in KISS). Have had some in service for a few months now with no issues. I've used some 24 port VDSL switches in the past for MDU's and may actually pull some of those and use these where there is RG6 house wiring as they support a LOT more management than any of the smaller DSLAMS I've looked at. In this configuration I can easily support 100mbit service on DOCSIS 3, and my unlimited modems will speedtest all the way to 280mbs. FWIW /rh On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the channel width.
So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do. Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16 units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that most all of the garden style properties have both the phone and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the heat exposure makes sense.
A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Nick,
Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree wholeheartedly. I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is getting us to unified channelization. Scott Helms wrote:
That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
... if your plant is in the US.
I have customers in Europe who decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local "flavor".
as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
Nick
Richard, Thanks for the information on these. Do you mind me asking what is a ballpark for these devices? From what I have read/heard, the Huawei D-CMTS was a 16x4 unit software upgradeable to 32x4 I thought. Is the one you have software upgradeable to 32x4? Are these DOCSIS 3.1 capable. Better yet, what does DOCSIS 3.1 or pre- DOCSIS 3.1 mean? On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Richard Holbo <holbor@sonss.net> wrote:
I'm in the middle of pulling some Cisco 7246VXR-UBR's (antiques) and replacing them with the Huawei D-CMTS devices. From what I understand of your needs, the Huawei devices will do what you are looking for. We are running 8x4, but can upgrade the licenses to 24x4 if we need the bandwidth, although at that point you will be more limited by the gig uplink. I'm designing them to not serve more than 250 customers per cmts and they are running a single vlan on the cable side back to an ISC DHCP server with very simple config files served via tftp. This allows me to group the CMTS's for reasonably efficient use of IP. Have not done IP6 on these yet, but will fairly soon. They are actually designed to run as a ONT from the Huawei OLT (GPON), but will also accept a standard SFP and run off ethernet (that's how I'm doing it). Compared to the other small CMTS's I looked at these are hard to beat. they are Hardened and can be mounted anywhere. The config to do what I'm using them for is really simple (I'm a big believer in KISS). Have had some in service for a few months now with no issues.
I've used some 24 port VDSL switches in the past for MDU's and may actually pull some of those and use these where there is RG6 house wiring as they support a LOT more management than any of the smaller DSLAMS I've looked at.
In this configuration I can easily support 100mbit service on DOCSIS 3, and my unlimited modems will speedtest all the way to 280mbs.
FWIW
/rh
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the channel width.
So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do. Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16 units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that most all of the garden style properties have both the phone and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the heat exposure makes sense.
A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com> wrote:
Nick,
Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree wholeheartedly. I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is getting us to unified channelization. Scott Helms wrote:
That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
... if your plant is in the US.
I have customers in Europe who decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local "flavor".
as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
Nick
In-line below. -Daniel
On Feb 2, 2016, at 10:47 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Daniel,
Thanks for the wealth of information. What kind of speeds are you offering? How many customers are you putting on one of these boxes? What modems are you using?
We’re using Arris modems because we have the least amount of signal-related issues with them. We’ve had to drop to 64qam because portions of our network runs over the air and we run into SNR issues at 256qam on the downstream. This is important because it basically halves our available bandwidth. I quoted some figures below based strictly on channel width but the reality of our situation is we see about half those numbers. We don’t cap our users. Every modem on the network can bond all 16 channels if it’s capable and it wants to. We’ve got one plan. Which means they can burst as high as they want within reason. Every month we’re in contact with the top talkers in each sector and we ask them to curb their bandwidth usage. With this model we get about 50 to 75 users to every 16 channel CMTS we deploy. In a 200 unit apartment building, we’d deploy 4 to 6 boxes. On a 2000 user airbox station, we’d deploy about 20 of them. There’s also one more consideration. Our TV service is IPTV. Since we’re not pumping DVB-C or DVB-S signal down the cable, we’ve got nearly a full Ghz of spectrum with which to use for DOCSIS channels. This gives us a lot of flexibility to just add additional CMTS when we begin to run into capacity issues.
I would honestly perfer something that was hardened for outdoor use. Think garden style apartments. What is the best for something like that?
I’m sure someone somewhere makes an environmentally hardened CMTS but I’m not currently aware of any at the moment. Most of my equipment sits in wiring closets.
Any reasons not to use EURO DOCSIS in the USA? Looks like it offers more speeds by using fatter channels. We don't plan on offering TV, but even if we did couldn't we just start the channels at a higher range, and still use EURO DOCSIS?
EuroDOCSIS would be a better option if you’re looking to maximize bits per hertz and have enough spectrum to play with. You get 8Mhz channels for 6Mhz channels which means at 16 channels you’ll get 800Mbit/sec to a modem instead of 640Mbit.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote: Hey Colton,
We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and colocating them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then connecting them by metro ethernet. We’ve had great successes so far with this model.
There’s lots of CMTS vendors.
There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the lack of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software releases. If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to relicense your downstream and upstream channels at some additional arbitrary fixed cost.
I’m personally fond of these things:
http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a
You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the box supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are less than 4 grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to just spam everywhere.
Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too:
http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/eur...
As does Harmonics:
http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo
All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is price and firmware features.
Then there’s Cisco.
The UBR is a popular platform. And pretty soon there’s going to be a glut of UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR platform.
Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the BSR:
http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/
On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are.
We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires.
So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with.
So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
Hi, On 2 February 2016 at 15:47, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote: <SNIP>
I would honestly perfer something that was hardened for outdoor use. Think garden style apartments. What is the best for something like that?
It depends where you are going to be deploying these things, northern New York state? Arizona? There's a reason curbside cabinets exist.
Comparing DOCIS 3 to VDSL2, the modems and CMTS appear to be more cost effective per customer. G.FAST I have not seen pricing on, but I expect it to be more than VDSL2.
Any reasons not to use EURO DOCSIS in the USA? Looks like it offers more speeds by using fatter channels. We don't plan on offering TV, but even if we did couldn't we just start the channels at a higher range, and still use EURO DOCSIS?
In the UK, half the country is using EURODOCSIS, half DOCSIS (historical reasons - the original companies had different ideas. I know that Liberty Global - who bought them all - can't wait for the new 3.1 standard where there will be no difference). One problem with using the 'wrong' one is simply around signal leakage. What happens when some fool leaves an unterminated bit of coax lying around? What frequencies is this new areal broadcasting on? Remember, even if the customer is the one who unterminates the cable it's still your problem to detect and fix. You will need to get EURODOCSIS equipment (including CPE) that: -Works on 110v (the EU uses 230v) -Has an FCC sticker rather than a CE sticker -Isn't going to break any FCC rules if used in EURODOCSIS mode -Has support available in North America The key differences are summarised at https://www.excentis.com/blog/differences-between-us-docsis-and-eurodocsis-a.... There a a lot more to it than the channel width! On a separate note, remember that G.FAST is extremely sensitive to dodgy wiring and line length. If the local loop length length gets near 500 yards you will be lucky to hit 150Mbps down. Over 500 yards and you will be lucky to hold sync outside of a lab. Alex
If you need density along the Arris line, skip the C4 and go straight to the E6000. Frank -----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Corbe Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:18 AM To: Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Cable Operator List Hey Colton, We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and colocating them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then connecting them by metro ethernet. We’ve had great successes so far with this model. There’s lots of CMTS vendors. There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the lack of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software releases. If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to relicense your downstream and upstream channels at some additional arbitrary fixed cost. I’m personally fond of these things: http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the box supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are less than 4 grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to just spam everywhere. Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too: http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/eur... As does Harmonics: http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is price and firmware features. Then there’s Cisco. The UBR is a popular platform. And pretty soon there’s going to be a glut of UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR platform. Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the BSR: http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/
On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are.
We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires.
So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with.
So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
Frank, Thanks for the advice, but I am looking for a low density, low cost solution. I have found some G.HN briges that are made from MDU enviroments, and seem cheaper than a small CMTS system. Anyone have expierence with G.HN? On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:07 PM, <frnkblk@iname.com> wrote:
If you need density along the Arris line, skip the C4 and go straight to the E6000.
Frank
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Corbe Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:18 AM To: Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
Hey Colton,
We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and colocating them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then connecting them by metro ethernet. We’ve had great successes so far with this model.
There’s lots of CMTS vendors.
There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the lack of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software releases. If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to relicense your downstream and upstream channels at some additional arbitrary fixed cost.
I’m personally fond of these things:
http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a
You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the box supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are less than 4 grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to just spam everywhere.
Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too:
http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/eur...
As does Harmonics:
http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo
All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is price and firmware features.
Then there’s Cisco.
The UBR is a popular platform. And pretty soon there’s going to be a glut of UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR platform.
Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the BSR:
http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/
On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are.
We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the phone wires.
So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based system to feed an entire town with.
So far I have found the http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to retail for under $5000.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dcorbe@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
I'm curious about this too.
I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my users.
I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
-Daniel
Those that are SCTE members have access to the SCTE mailing list. Like the comments about the CableTV list, it is often focused on plant/transport/RF more than Docsis but there are good DOCSIS knowledgeable people on the list too that answer questions. Graham Johnston Network Planner Westman Communications Group 204.717.2829 johnstong@westmancom.com think green; don't print this email. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 7:42 AM To: NANOG Subject: Cable Operator List Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type operators?
participants (14)
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Alex Brooks -
Art Plato -
Benjamin Hatton -
Colton Conor -
Daniel Corbe -
Edwin Mallette -
frnkblk＠iname.com -
Graham Johnston -
jamie rishaw -
Jared Mauch -
Nick Hilliard -
Richard Holbo -
Scott Helms -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu