NANOGers home data centers - What's in your closet?
From top down: Current primary internet connection, soon to be out of band internet connection (Wimax from Clearwire) Ubiquity Networks Nanostation2 based AP (MeshPotato via the VillageTelco
Hey all, I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm I've got the following: Production rack (4 post AV rack) project) << serving up 3 SSID (bridge to main vlan, guest, honeypot) Linksys WRT54G T-mobile version << not doing anything at the moment 3 dell optiplex 745s PFSense router (WAN to clearwire, LAN to Cisco 3550) AlientVault server (amazing software package) Proxmox server (another great software package) I have also considered turning all 3 machines into Proxmox boxes and run everything in a virtual machine. I like the Dell Optiplex machines, they sip power. APC UPS (considering a rack mount UPS and will probably buy one this weekend from the local Goodwill computer works store) PS3 << gotta get my parallel hacking on Avocent Cyclades PDU (unused currently as my apartment wiring won't support it) Cisco 3550 Distribution Switch Cisco 2950 Access Switch Dell PowerEge 1800 Dell PowerEdge 2800 I've got a network lab rack (skeletek) as well. This hosts a 6509 and other fun things (cisco routers/switches). Pretty sure I can do any CCNA/CCNP/CCIE(R&S) lab scenario). So what's in NANOGers home networks/compute centers? :)
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:28:57 CDT, Charles N Wyble said:
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
He doesn't get out much, does he? :)
So what's in NANOGers home networks/compute centers? :)
Surprisingly minimalistic - a Linksys cablemodem and a Belkin Play wireless router, both from Best Buy, a Dell Latitude laptop from work, and a PS/3. I'll upgrade if and when Comcast deploys IPv6 or other stuff worth upgrading in my area. ;) (I used to have more gear, but it came down to floor space for compute gear I didn't use versus guitar gear I *do* use.. ;)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I still get out plenty, thanks! :) It's been years in the making, and more than served its purpose! But convenient to have... And heats the home nicely in the wintertime! And someone said it was all about the toys! Scott On 8/12/11 8:29 PM, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:28:57 CDT, Charles N Wyble said:
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
He doesn't get out much, does he? :)
So what's in NANOGers home networks/compute centers? :)
Surprisingly minimalistic - a Linksys cablemodem and a Belkin Play wireless router, both from Best Buy, a Dell Latitude laptop from work, and a PS/3. I'll upgrade if and when Comcast deploys IPv6 or other stuff worth upgrading in my area. ;)
(I used to have more gear, but it came down to floor space for compute gear I didn't use versus guitar gear I *do* use.. ;)
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On 8/12/2011 8:29 PM, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
So what's in NANOGers home networks/compute centers? :) Surprisingly minimalistic - a Linksys cablemodem and a Belkin Play wireless router, both from Best Buy, a Dell Latitude laptop from work, and a PS/3.
(I used to have more gear, but it came down to floor space for compute gear I didn't use versus guitar gear I *do* use.. ;)
I'm on a similar page with Valdis, cable modem and a couple wireless routers (11n with USB drive for media, b/g downstairs for kids Xbox). The serious toys are at the office :) And no guitar gear, but keyboards and home theater gear have priority. Used to run a Nepenthes honeypot but have retired it as very little malware is network-driven these days and the returns were minimal. Also have a small museum in the back room, with an IBM 2311 disk drive carcass (glass door intact), a 360/65 front panel, and an HP9000 D-class (still boots when I can afford the power/noise/nostalgia). Jeff
Adtran Netvanta 2054 FW Sperry Univac (1979, ~8U rackmount) http://oldcomputers.net/AIM-65.html http://oldcomputers.net/kayproii.html http://www.wap.org/a3/default.html On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Jeff Kell <jeff-kell@utc.edu> wrote:
On 8/12/2011 8:29 PM, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
So what's in NANOGers home networks/compute centers? :)
Surprisingly minimalistic - a Linksys cablemodem and a Belkin Play wireless router, both from Best Buy, a Dell Latitude laptop from work, and a PS/3.
(I used to have more gear, but it came down to floor space for compute gear I didn't use versus guitar gear I *do* use.. ;)
I'm on a similar page with Valdis, cable modem and a couple wireless routers (11n with USB drive for media, b/g downstairs for kids Xbox). The serious toys are at the office :) And no guitar gear, but keyboards and home theater gear have priority. Used to run a Nepenthes honeypot but have retired it as very little malware is network-driven these days and the returns were minimal.
Also have a small museum in the back room, with an IBM 2311 disk drive carcass (glass door intact), a 360/65 front panel, and an HP9000 D-class (still boots when I can afford the power/noise/nostalgia).
Jeff
I'm with this too, my house is much less complicated than it used to be. I have dual WAN (Comcast Business Class and cheap DLS as a failover), fed into my Cisco 3750 "core" switch. I have a Sonicwall NSA2400 as my primary Gateway from LAN, with a Secondary Gateway of my Cisco UC520 (mostly for testing the 64 bit VPN client when it came out, and I haven't changed anything back). I have a third firewall for working on projects from home which is just a virtual IPCop Machine which I use to segregate devices with conflicting subnets during projects for work. I have VMware ESX running on a few servers I just pulled back from a colo (Asus 1u half depth single E5510 Xeons with 32gb of ram each) running iscsi off my open filer iscsi storage device with 16x 2tb drives and my old openfiler with 8x 1.5tb and 8x 1tb. Layer 3 routing done at my 3750, with a cisco 1142 AP serving voice, data and guest wireless. Internal IPv4 3x /25, 2x /26, 2x /27 and 2x /28 non routed for the iscsi. Externally only a /28 and a /29. Internal IPv6 5x /64 because I haven't had any time to set up IPv6 for my Guest wireless, voice or iSCSI. External IPv6 awaiting Comcast to get my IPv6 trial going, and Centurytel to offer IPv6 in my area. Voice service provided by Broadvoice (SIP) feeding into the UC520 for the alarm system. Of course the obligatory video games (xbox 360, wii and my girlfriends PS3 when she brings it over) all live in the guest VLAN, which sadly get used more for Netflix anymore than actual video games... Media center on the TV is a home brew mini ITX pc with a mid range core2duo in it. For power, I love the APC stuff. I have a Rack Mount 3000va and 2 shoebox 1500va boxes as backup. All fed back to the panel an 2 separate circuits. At one point I did have 4 full racks in the guest room and a partial DS3 (about 10 years back), with a dedicated AC unit and about 30KVA of UPS. Too much, too expensive. Colo somewhere close and cheaper circuits is the way I went and I've cut my power bill from over a grand a month to under $100 in the winter. Lets not talk summer.... I need new windows :) -----Original Message----- From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu [mailto:Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 6:30 PM To: Charles N Wyble Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: NANOGers home data centers - What's in your closet? On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:28:57 CDT, Charles N Wyble said:
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
He doesn't get out much, does he? :)
So what's in NANOGers home networks/compute centers? :)
Surprisingly minimalistic - a Linksys cablemodem and a Belkin Play wireless router, both from Best Buy, a Dell Latitude laptop from work, and a PS/3. I'll upgrade if and when Comcast deploys IPv6 or other stuff worth upgrading in my area. ;) (I used to have more gear, but it came down to floor space for compute gear I didn't use versus guitar gear I *do* use.. ;)
I cheat... I use the lab we have in house within the company I work for. After all MXs/Ts/Nexus7k/etc. puts a heavy toll on the home power bill.. :-) On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com>wrote:
Hey all,
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
I've got the following:
Production rack (4 post AV rack)
From top down: Current primary internet connection, soon to be out of band internet connection (Wimax from Clearwire) Ubiquity Networks Nanostation2 based AP (MeshPotato via the VillageTelco project) << serving up 3 SSID (bridge to main vlan, guest, honeypot) Linksys WRT54G T-mobile version << not doing anything at the moment
3 dell optiplex 745s
PFSense router (WAN to clearwire, LAN to Cisco 3550) AlientVault server (amazing software package) Proxmox server (another great software package)
I have also considered turning all 3 machines into Proxmox boxes and run everything in a virtual machine. I like the Dell Optiplex machines, they sip power.
APC UPS (considering a rack mount UPS and will probably buy one this weekend from the local Goodwill computer works store) PS3 << gotta get my parallel hacking on Avocent Cyclades PDU (unused currently as my apartment wiring won't support it) Cisco 3550 Distribution Switch Cisco 2950 Access Switch Dell PowerEge 1800 Dell PowerEdge 2800
I've got a network lab rack (skeletek) as well. This hosts a 6509 and other fun things (cisco routers/switches). Pretty sure I can do any CCNA/CCNP/CCIE(R&S) lab scenario).
So what's in NANOGers home networks/compute centers? :)
-- -Mike Mainer
In a message written on Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 06:28:57PM -0500, Charles N Wyble wrote:
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
I have installed a 2 post rack in a previous house, and wired several houses now with Cat 5E to every room. That said, I gave up on large amounts of equipment at home a long time ago. Be it the power bill, AC needs, or just plain noise from data center equipment they are all good reasons to not have gear at home. A quality home router is important, I've rolled my own with FreeBSD running on a PC-Engines box, 5W, no fan, sitting on a 1000VA UPS, it lasts for like 3+ hours when the power fails. I've also had luck with some Netgear boxes. Simiarly a good WiFi box, these days MIMO on both 2.4 and 5Ghz. Airport Exterme or Netgear again are good choices. Don't want to roll your own? Consider OpenWRT, or CeroWRT on the right hardware. Beyond that, a nice home file server, rsynced to something in a real data center each night. This a combo of backup plus high speed access no matter which side of the home connection you are on. I currently use a PC I built myself, which is good, but I would like something that uses less power. I'm looking hard at a Mac Mini "server", with an external RAID (perhaps 2x3TB drives, RAID 1) as I think it will draw even less power, but I'm not sure yet. You might notice a trend with me, low power, which means low heat output and long runtime on UPS, fanless so no noise, small footprint. Gotta have GigE to every room wired for desktops, printers, cameras, TV's, playstations, etc. Netgear 5 port switches are awesome, lifetime warranty, small, cheap. The holy grail I'm searching for now? A GigE switch with POE, unmanaged is ok, and probably preferred from a price perspective; but with NO FAN. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
The holy grail I'm searching for now? A GigE switch with POE, unmanaged is ok, and probably preferred from a price perspective; but with NO FAN.
I can't help with the POE part. I have a 16-port D-Link DGS-1016D -- GigE, no fan, unmanaged. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
In a message written on Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 09:11:56PM -0400, Steven Bellovin wrote:
The holy grail I'm searching for now? A GigE switch with POE, unmanaged is ok, and probably preferred from a price perspective; but with NO FAN.
I can't help with the POE part. I have a 16-port D-Link DGS-1016D -- GigE, no fan, unmanaged.
Yeah, found a few of those. My reason is simple. There are people who make a 4-5 port switch that is POE-powered, that is it gets it's power on the POE uplink and then provides 3-4 switched ports with no power. So if I have a POE central switch, in addition for working for the direct to Phone and Camera POE device ports it would allow me to have desktop hubs where I need a breakout without any power cable, plus they would then all be on the central UPS! I realize this is a bit of a tall order, as the switch must be designed to deliver full wattage on all ports even though that might not happen. I would accept a switch with fans that rather than just changing speed kept them off until a temperature threshold was reached. Heck, even finding 16 port _unmanaged_ _affordable_ POE is very hard, a couple of 100M options, I don't think I know of any GigE options, and Managed seems to add $1k to the price, which is steep for home. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Bellovin" <smb@cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: NANOGers home data centers - What's in your closet?
The holy grail I'm searching for now? A GigE switch with POE, unmanaged is ok, and probably preferred from a price perspective; but with NO FAN.
I can't help with the POE part. I have a 16-port D-Link DGS-1016D -- GigE, no fan, unmanaged.
My intuition, Leo, is that you won't *get* a PoE switch[1] without a fan; those things can be responsible for pushing *a lot* of power, fully loaded, and there's no real reason for them to be designed without one. Cheers, -- jra [1]GigE, with that many ports. -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
On Aug 12, 2011 6:08 PM, "Leo Bicknell" <bicknell@ufp.org> wrote:
In a message written on Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 06:28:57PM -0500, Charles N
Wyble wrote:
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
I have installed a 2 post rack in a previous house, and wired several houses now with Cat 5E to every room. That said, I gave up on large amounts of equipment at home a long time ago. Be it the power bill, AC needs, or just plain noise from data center equipment they are all good reasons to not have gear at home.
A quality home router is important, I've rolled my own with FreeBSD running on a PC-Engines box, 5W, no fan, sitting on a 1000VA UPS, it lasts for like 3+ hours when the power fails. I've also had luck with some Netgear boxes. Simiarly a good WiFi box, these days MIMO on both 2.4 and 5Ghz. Airport Exterme or Netgear again are good choices. Don't want to roll your own? Consider OpenWRT, or CeroWRT on the right hardware.
Beyond that, a nice home file server, rsynced to something in a real data center each night. This a combo of backup plus high speed access no matter which side of the home connection you are on. I currently use a PC I built myself, which is good, but I would like something that uses less power. I'm looking hard at a Mac Mini "server", with an external RAID (perhaps 2x3TB drives, RAID 1) as I think it will draw even less power, but I'm not sure yet.
You might notice a trend with me, low power, which means low heat output and long runtime on UPS, fanless so no noise, small footprint. Gotta have GigE to every room wired for desktops, printers, cameras, TV's, playstations, etc. Netgear 5 port switches are awesome, lifetime warranty, small, cheap.
The holy grail I'm searching for now? A GigE switch with POE, unmanaged is ok, and probably preferred from a price perspective; but with NO FAN.
I have a spare Poe dummy switch you are welcome to. Oh and it doesn't have a fan,
-- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
I have a bunch of these, very useful and not super expensive. http://www.amazon.com/800poe-edgeconnect-managed-ethernet-switch/dp/B002YBC4... On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 6:28 PM, Chaim Rieger <chaim.rieger@gmail.com> wrote:
On Aug 12, 2011 6:08 PM, "Leo Bicknell" <bicknell@ufp.org> wrote:
In a message written on Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 06:28:57PM -0500, Charles N
Wyble wrote:
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
I have installed a 2 post rack in a previous house, and wired several houses now with Cat 5E to every room. That said, I gave up on large amounts of equipment at home a long time ago. Be it the power bill, AC needs, or just plain noise from data center equipment they are all good reasons to not have gear at home.
A quality home router is important, I've rolled my own with FreeBSD running on a PC-Engines box, 5W, no fan, sitting on a 1000VA UPS, it lasts for like 3+ hours when the power fails. I've also had luck with some Netgear boxes. Simiarly a good WiFi box, these days MIMO on both 2.4 and 5Ghz. Airport Exterme or Netgear again are good choices. Don't want to roll your own? Consider OpenWRT, or CeroWRT on the right hardware.
Beyond that, a nice home file server, rsynced to something in a real data center each night. This a combo of backup plus high speed access no matter which side of the home connection you are on. I currently use a PC I built myself, which is good, but I would like something that uses less power. I'm looking hard at a Mac Mini "server", with an external RAID (perhaps 2x3TB drives, RAID 1) as I think it will draw even less power, but I'm not sure yet.
You might notice a trend with me, low power, which means low heat output and long runtime on UPS, fanless so no noise, small footprint. Gotta have GigE to every room wired for desktops, printers, cameras, TV's, playstations, etc. Netgear 5 port switches are awesome, lifetime warranty, small, cheap.
The holy grail I'm searching for now? A GigE switch with POE, unmanaged is ok, and probably preferred from a price perspective; but with NO FAN.
I have a spare Poe dummy switch you are welcome to. Oh and it doesn't have a fan,
-- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
In a message written on Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 06:34:03PM -0700, Thomas Crowe wrote:
I have a bunch of these, very useful and not super expensive.
http://www.amazon.com/800poe-edgeconnect-managed-ethernet-switch/dp/B002YBC4...
Yeah, 10/100 though, right? The best option I know of is a TREDnet TPE-S80: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003O8J1AU The fan is LOUD, but it's cheap, unmanaged, and supports full POE on all 8 ports (unlike many in its class that only do it on 4 ports). I won't use it for my central switch though, as I want GigE in the house (wired) for when I do need to move lots of data (backups). -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
Yes the 8 ports are 10/00, the uplink and downlink are both gige though. You can use all 8 ports with full PoE, I've plugged in 8 polycom 331's and it works just fine. On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Leo Bicknell <bicknell@ufp.org> wrote:
In a message written on Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 06:34:03PM -0700, Thomas Crowe wrote:
I have a bunch of these, very useful and not super expensive.
http://www.amazon.com/800poe-edgeconnect-managed-ethernet-switch/dp/B002YBC4...
Yeah, 10/100 though, right?
The best option I know of is a TREDnet TPE-S80:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003O8J1AU
The fan is LOUD, but it's cheap, unmanaged, and supports full POE on all 8 ports (unlike many in its class that only do it on 4 ports).
I won't use it for my central switch though, as I want GigE in the house (wired) for when I do need to move lots of data (backups).
-- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
On 13/08/2011, at 11:08 AM, Leo Bicknell <bicknell@ufp.org> wrote:
Beyond that, a nice home file server, rsynced to something in a real data center each night. This a combo of backup plus high speed access no matter which side of the home connection you are on. I currently use a PC I built myself, which is good, but I would like something that uses less power. I'm looking hard at a Mac Mini "server", with an external RAID (perhaps 2x3TB drives, RAID 1) as I think it will draw even less power, but I'm not sure yet.
You might notice a trend with me, low power, which means low heat output and long runtime on UPS, fanless so no noise, small footprint. Gotta have GigE to every room wired for desktops, printers, cameras, TV's, playstations, etc. Netgear 5 port switches are awesome, lifetime warranty, small, cheap.
The holy grail I'm searching for now? A GigE switch with POE, unmanaged is ok, and probably preferred from a price perspective; but with NO FAN.
We moved overseas and power/space/cooling is harder to provide so out with all of the rack-mount gear, in with the efficient and small stuff. I had a 42U rack at home full of various kit that I'd collected. Much of the rack mount went to work where I've squirreled it in to a closet and use it to archive my mail -- much cleaner solution than the crap (Exchange with mandatory automated archiving) that IT provides. @home: X-Serves running OS X Server became Mac Mini's without much fuss. Rackmount Cisco 35xx's became 3560's (fan less) and I added a small Netgear GigE switch. Moved away from the Nokia IP380 running pFsense and back to a Soekris. By far my favorite addition was a used QNAP from Ebay. 6 Bays - holds 4 x 2TB drives currently and has my movies, music, laptop backups, family pictures, and so forth... QNAP client for the iPad has saved many a fight over the TV. Still working on the Asterisk server to power the VoIP phones -- moving from a 4U rack mount intel to a dedicated G4 mac mini. Also bought a Intel Solo Mac Mini for cheap and upgraded the processor to a 2.33Ghz Intel Duo -- fun project and dedicated the box to PLEX in the media center. jy
In a message written on Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 06:08:28PM -0700, Leo Bicknell wrote:
The holy grail I'm searching for now? A GigE switch with POE, unmanaged is ok, and probably preferred from a price perspective; but with NO FAN.
Based on a private message and some poking around it appears Netgear has delivered 95% of what I want. The GS110TP is a 8 port 10/100/1000 w/POE + 2 port SFP switch, no fan: http://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart-switches/GS110TP.asp... Note that it only has a 48w power budget, so it can't do full power on each port. The GS108T-200 is the companion switch, 8 ports 10/100/1000 and it can be powered by POE on the uplink port: http://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart-switches/GS108T-200.... It uses 6W, so 8 ports * 6W is 48W, hey, you can put one of these on every port on the GS110TP! I have a feeling that's exactly what Netgear was thinking! So, there you go, a way to star 8 8-port switches off a central switch with the remote switches needing no power. This allows UPS'ing the central switch only, while knowing they will all stay up. The GS110TP seems to go for about $260, while the GS108T-200's are about $100 each. I wish the GS110TP had a bit more power budget, as I'd like to run a couple of ports to 15W devices while using a few others for the switches downstream. But kudos for Netgear for keeping up their great line. These are also managed switches, you get VLAN's, SNMP, QoS, basically more goodies than most folks need at home. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
I hope someone will explain the operational relevance of this ... Sun V100 FreeBSD firewall/border gateway Sun V100 Plan 9 kernel porting test bed Sun V100 OpenBSD build/test/port box Intel 8-core Solaris fileserver and zones host AMDx4 Random OS workstation crash box Epia-EK Plan 9 terminal MacBook x Snow Leopard build/test host Intel-mumble-ITX Win2K8.2 development host Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 File server Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 CPU/Auth server Sun V100 Oracle (blech) new-Solaris test/porting box Sun V100 crashbox for *BSD firewall failover tests Sun V100 *BSD ham radio stuff, plus Plan9 terminal kernal testing. <sound-of-pants-zipping-up>
I hope someone will explain the operational relevance of this ...
I don't know, but 50 people had snarfed the picture I posted within 30 minutes, a few hundred have by now, and it's the weekend. Fun. ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net "We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN) With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.
On 08/14/2011 05:45 PM, Joe Greco wrote:
I don't know, but 50 people had snarfed the picture I posted within 30 minutes, a few hundred have by now, and it's the weekend.
Yes. Exactly. I'll start my more operational focused threads on Monday. Plus Randy started a personal backups thread. I need to respond to that soon. That's pretty operational. I've always wondered if the next cisco/juniper 0 day will be delivered via a set of exploits delivered via a link posted to NANOG. :) Maybe I'll do a talk at DEFCON next year about that.
Fun.
Precisely! -- Charles N Wyble charles@knownelement.com @charlesnw on twitter http://blog.knownelement.com Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
I've always wondered if the next cisco/juniper 0 day will be delivered via a set of exploits delivered via a link posted to NANOG. :) Maybe I'll do a talk at DEFCON next year about that.
more likely a 'shortened' url. how anyone can click those is beyond me. randy
In a message written on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:12:21AM -0400, Randy Bush wrote:
more likely a 'shortened' url. how anyone can click those is beyond me.
http://longurl.org/ -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
On Aug 15, 2011, at 10:12 21AM, Randy Bush wrote:
I've always wondered if the next cisco/juniper 0 day will be delivered via a set of exploits delivered via a link posted to NANOG. :) Maybe I'll do a talk at DEFCON next year about that.
more likely a 'shortened' url. how anyone can click those is beyond me.
I'm curious what your objection is. Mine is privacy -- the owner of the shortening site gets to see every place you visit using one of those. I don't think there's a significant incremental security risk, because the URL you click on doesn't tell you what you'll receive in any event. Case in point: https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/SMBlog-in-PDF.pdf does *not* yield a PDF. (As far as I know, it's a completely safe URL to click on, but I can't guarantee that someone else didn't hack my site. I, at least, haven't put any nasties there.) Yes, when you avoid shortened URLs you get some assurance of the owner of the content. Given the rate of hacking -- is anyone really safe from a determined amateur attack, let alone state-sponsored nastiness? -- and given the amount of third-party content served up by virtually all ad-containing site, you really have no idea what you're going to receive when you click on any link. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
more likely a 'shortened' url. how anyone can click those is beyond me. I'm curious what your objection is.
i have no assurance that a shortened url does not lead to a malicious site. also your privacy issue, but that is secondary.
you really have no idea what you're going to receive when you click on any link.
life is nasty. but one still avoids bad neighborhoods. randy
On 8/15/2011 8:37 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
i have no assurance that a shortened url does not lead to a malicious site.
From a practical standpoint, a long URL provides no greater assurance.
you really have no idea what you're going to receive when you click on any link.
life is nasty. but one still avoids bad neighborhoods.
Which incorrectly presumes that the average user can distinguish among Internet neighborhoods. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 11:37:37AM -0400, Randy Bush wrote:
more likely a 'shortened' url. how anyone can click those is beyond me. I'm curious what your objection is.
i have no assurance that a shortened url does not lead to a malicious site. also your privacy issue, but that is secondary.
Given the rate of publicised defacements of all manner of sites (and that injecting malware into a page is the exact same thing as a clear defacement, from an execution point of view), a long URL gives you no greater assurance of protection from malice. - Matt (Fellow hater of URL-shortening services) -- "I'm sorry they changed it back. The freedom-fries thing was a proclamation to the world that we are indeed ruled by fools and madmen, but it had the virtue of not requiring mass numbers of people to be killed in order to make the point." -- Brad Ferguson
On 8/15/2011 6:00 PM, Matthew Palmer wrote:
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 11:37:37AM -0400, Randy Bush wrote:
more likely a 'shortened' url. how anyone can click those is beyond me. I'm curious what your objection is. i have no assurance that a shortened url does not lead to a malicious site. also your privacy issue, but that is secondary. Given the rate of publicised defacements of all manner of sites (and that injecting malware into a page is the exact same thing as a clear defacement, from an execution point of view), a long URL gives you no greater assurance of protection from malice.
True. A long URL does not guarantee protection from malice. However, you would likely *not* visit a link to obviousmalwaresite.example.com. In fact, I would guess that even a reasonable percentage of the clueless would not click a link to obviousmalwaresite.example.com. Camouflaging obviousmalwaresite.example.com behind a URL shortener and/or several layers of redirection (which is all that a URL shortener is in the end) will increase the number of clicks. This is obviously why spammers/scammers use them. Your spam filtering may block emails with links to obviousmalwaresite.example.com, but does it also expand short URLs and then block on the final destination? Or do you simply block all emails with short URLs in them? Expanding a short URL merely raises the bar slightly by getting you to the long URL... which gets us back to - whether or not you would click on obviousmalwaresite.example.com. A tool like longurl.org will give you the full redirection chain and things like Titles and Meta data for the final destination. If you like, you can go directly to the destination bypassing potential redirection-redirection (i.e. redirecting a portion of visitors differently than others). For example: http://t.co/7wP9W2j == Good || Bad -> http://longurl.org/expand?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2F7wP9W2j FYI: I lock the doors of my car despite the fact that a fair amount of the 'security' of the external surface of the car is provided by panels of glass. -DMM -- maintainer of longurl.org in my spare time (instead of building a data center in my house :-) use the web site, use the API, or download the code and run your own server (the code is opensource)
On Aug 15, 2011, at 8:02 PM, David Miller wrote:
On 8/15/2011 6:00 PM, Matthew Palmer wrote:
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 11:37:37AM -0400, Randy Bush wrote:
more likely a 'shortened' url. how anyone can click those is beyond me. I'm curious what your objection is. i have no assurance that a shortened url does not lead to a malicious site. also your privacy issue, but that is secondary. Given the rate of publicised defacements of all manner of sites (and that injecting malware into a page is the exact same thing as a clear defacement, from an execution point of view), a long URL gives you no greater assurance of protection from malice.
True. A long URL does not guarantee protection from malice.
However, you would likely *not* visit a link to obviousmalwaresite.example.com. In fact, I would guess that even a reasonable percentage of the clueless would not click a link to obviousmalwaresite.example.com.
Camouflaging obviousmalwaresite.example.com behind a URL shortener and/or several layers of redirection (which is all that a URL shortener is in the end) will increase the number of clicks. This is obviously why spammers/scammers use them.
Your spam filtering may block emails with links to obviousmalwaresite.example.com, but does it also expand short URLs and then block on the final destination? Or do you simply block all emails with short URLs in them?
Expanding a short URL merely raises the bar slightly by getting you to the long URL... which gets us back to - whether or not you would click on obviousmalwaresite.example.com. A tool like longurl.org will give you the full redirection chain and things like Titles and Meta data for the final destination. If you like, you can go directly to the destination bypassing potential redirection-redirection (i.e. redirecting a portion of visitors differently than others).
For example: http://t.co/7wP9W2j == Good || Bad -> http://longurl.org/expand?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2F7wP9W2j
FYI: I lock the doors of my car despite the fact that a fair amount of the 'security' of the external surface of the car is provided by panels of glass.
-DMM -- maintainer of longurl.org in my spare time (instead of building a data center in my house :-) use the web site, use the API, or download the code and run your own server (the code is opensource)
There are browser extensions which resolve and display the actual address of shortened URLs. http://www.google.com/search?&q=browser+extension+display+shortened+urls And for fun there's always http://shadyurl.com to make shortened obscured URLs that are extra scary.
On 08/15/2011 10:31 AM, Steven Bellovin wrote:
On Aug 15, 2011, at 10:12 21AM, Randy Bush wrote:
I've always wondered if the next cisco/juniper 0 day will be delivered via a set of exploits delivered via a link posted to NANOG. :) Maybe I'll do a talk at DEFCON next year about that. more likely a 'shortened' url. how anyone can click those is beyond me.
I'm curious what your objection is.
Mine is privacy -- the owner of the shortening site gets to see every place you visit using one of those.
That's why I have my own url shortening service using yourls. (http://yourls.org/)
I don't think there's a significant incremental security risk, because the URL you click on doesn't tell you what you'll receive in any event. Exactly.
Case in point: https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/SMBlog-in-PDF.pdf does *not* yield a PDF. (As far as I know, it's a completely safe URL to click on, but I can't guarantee that someone else didn't hack my site. I, at least, haven't put any nasties there.)
Or so you claim! :) And a PDF file is a particularly potent infection vector. It would be interesting to put up a PDF (say OSPFvsISIS.pdf or WhyAnyoneWhoIsn'tNamedOwenHasRottenv6Ideas.pdf) with an exploit. This exploit could be a toe hold, which grabs other malware, opens reverse remote shell etc. If one is targeting very long term exploitation at mass scale, sitting in the network control plane for a long period of time is a large factor. And if one entices operators to download malware , the first step of most attacks (elevating privileges) is often much easier (certainly faster, as operators doing something privileged is a regular occurrence).
Given the rate of hacking -- is anyone really safe from a determined amateur attack, Maybe.
let alone state-sponsored nastiness? -- and given the amount of third-party content served up by virtually all ad-containing site, you really have no idea what you're going to receive when you click on any link.
Yep. I see hacked ad content every single day.
On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:12:21 EDT, Randy Bush said:
I've always wondered if the next cisco/juniper 0 day will be delivered via a set of exploits delivered via a link posted to NANOG. :) Maybe I'll do a talk at DEFCON next year about that.
more likely a 'shortened' url. how anyone can click those is beyond me.
http://tinyurl.com/preview.php - at least these guys understand some of the issues involved. At the cost of setting a preference cookie, clicking on one of their shortened URLs will take you to a page that says where it's going to take you. Of course, after that, you *still* have to ask yourself how safe it is to click on that computerworld.com link. ;) (For the record, computerworld.com links usually seem to be safe for your computer - like most trade journals, most of their danger is how many IQ points you lose reading the article :)
On 08/14/2011 03:49 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) wrote:
I hope someone will explain the operational relevance of this ...
Small home compute centers/networks need care and feeding as well. I've learned a lot from this thread. Things like common designs/layouts, cooling, POE switches etc. Can someone explain the operational relevance of the never ending v6 threads that are the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS over and over and over again? :)
Sun V100 FreeBSD firewall/border gateway Sun V100 Plan 9 kernel porting test bed Sun V100 OpenBSD build/test/port box Intel 8-core Solaris fileserver and zones host AMDx4 Random OS workstation crash box Epia-EK Plan 9 terminal MacBook x Snow Leopard build/test host Intel-mumble-ITX Win2K8.2 development host Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 File server Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 CPU/Auth server Sun V100 Oracle (blech) new-Solaris test/porting box Sun V100 crashbox for *BSD firewall failover tests Sun V100 *BSD ham radio stuff, plus Plan9 terminal kernal testing.
Sun is good stuff. I like "crash box". Is that like a scratch system?
<sound-of-pants-zipping-up>
Hah -- Charles N Wyble charles@knownelement.com @charlesnw on twitter http://blog.knownelement.com Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/14/2011 8:36 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Can someone explain the operational relevance of the never ending v6 threads that are the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS over and over and over again? :)
Yes, they prove that IPv6 is not a viable technology as it currently stands and we should be working on the next big thing, of course! IPv42, here I come! On a serious note, though, really, what DOES it say about the real-world maturity / actual chances of adoption for IPv6 that Charles' statement above is, in fact, true? Not trying to be anti-IPv6 or start a flamewar (well, okay, I am trying to start a flamewar, that's what Sunday nights are for :)), it's honestly something that puzzles me. It just doesn't feel right... Regards, Tim - -- Tim Wilde, Senior Software Engineer, Team Cymru, Inc. twilde@cymru.com | +1-630-230-5433 | http://www.team-cymru.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEARECAAYFAk5Ia8AACgkQluRbRini9thKyACfZ6H6m0GQRLm6SWCOGZ663j/G 5+kAn0JM74VwRkCeaBhaTRYEY3Hz7oK1 =h5jP -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 8/14/2011 2:43 PM, Tim Wilde wrote:
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On 8/14/2011 8:36 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Can someone explain the operational relevance of the never ending v6 threads that are the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS over and over and over again? :) Yes, they prove that IPv6 is not a viable technology as it currently stands and we should be working on the next big thing, of course! IPv42, here I come!
On a serious note, though, really, what DOES it say about the real-world maturity / actual chances of adoption for IPv6 that Charles' statement above is, in fact, true? Not trying to be anti-IPv6 or start a flamewar (well, okay, I am trying to start a flamewar, that's what Sunday nights are for :)), it's honestly something that puzzles me. It just doesn't feel right...
It doesn't say all that much, just that nothing ever changes in the world. Protocols have never been perfect, and probably never will be. Engineers and Ops have always struggled to make something that suits both worlds. Paul
On Aug 14, 2011, at 5:43 PM, Tim Wilde wrote:
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On 8/14/2011 8:36 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Can someone explain the operational relevance of the never ending v6 threads that are the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS over and over and over again? :)
Yes, they prove that IPv6 is not a viable technology as it currently stands and we should be working on the next big thing, of course! IPv42, here I come!
On a serious note, though, really, what DOES it say about the real-world maturity / actual chances of adoption for IPv6 that Charles' statement above is, in fact, true? Not trying to be anti-IPv6 or start a flamewar (well, okay, I am trying to start a flamewar, that's what Sunday nights are for :)), it's honestly something that puzzles me. It just doesn't feel right…
What does it say that the same thing happens in IPv4? I really don't see a significant difference in that regard. Yes, IPv6 is currently a little less fully baked than IPv4. IPv4 is 20 years older than IPv6, so I say that's to be somewhat expected. Owen
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/15/2011 2:24 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
What does it say that the same thing happens in IPv4?
I really don't see a significant difference in that regard.
I will admit to not having run the numbers and trying to compare IPv4 protocol-specific discussion threads vs. IPv6, but it certainly "feels" like there are more. My feeling is also that the IPv6 discussions are much more fundamental, in that they're discussing basic deployment strategies, etc. But it could all be selection bias because it's prominent in the collective mindset, I'll grant you that.
Yes, IPv6 is currently a little less fully baked than IPv4. IPv4 is 20 years older than IPv6, so I say that's to be somewhat expected.
Point taken. Anyone have time to try to do a long-term comparative study of discussions on deployment strategies and things like NAT, DHCP, etc, for IPv4 vs. IPv6, factoring in the differing levels of overall Internet adoption at the time of IPv4 adoption vs. IPv6, etc? If so, I have a few other tasks I'd love to have you do... :) As others have said, I guess what it really shows is that nothing ever really changes, and no one (protocol designers, IETF folks, operators, router vendors, etc) is perfect, despite our best efforts to be. :) Regards, Tim - -- Tim Wilde, Senior Software Engineer, Team Cymru, Inc. twilde@cymru.com | +1-630-230-5433 | http://www.team-cymru.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEARECAAYFAk5JjEYACgkQluRbRini9thaIwCggaprPoquYDvQ3b4Pp53qfe43 KlAAoIWjjr5ItnWdMcIOW7Fc9rvbPRfw =M9lE -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Aug 15, 2011, at 2:14 PM, Tim Wilde wrote:
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On 8/15/2011 2:24 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
What does it say that the same thing happens in IPv4?
I really don't see a significant difference in that regard.
I will admit to not having run the numbers and trying to compare IPv4 protocol-specific discussion threads vs. IPv6, but it certainly "feels" like there are more. My feeling is also that the IPv6 discussions are much more fundamental, in that they're discussing basic deployment strategies, etc. But it could all be selection bias because it's prominent in the collective mindset, I'll grant you that.
I was talking about quality, you're talking quantity. Sure, there are more IPv6 protocol discussions, it's a newer protocol, there are more people left that haven't had all of the same old discussions, haven't gained some experience and come back to the same old discussions with new perspectives, etc. However, the quality of the IPv4 same old discussions vs. the IPv6 same old discussions is roughly the same. It's all about problems or perceived problems that we knew about from very early in the protocol's design life and somehow the protocol works well enough for lots of people to use it in spite of these (seeming from the discussions) overwhelming flaws. As an example, look at how often the NAT != Security / Yes it does. argument still comes up in spite of the fact that it's been pretty clearly established that NAT is actually neutral at best and usually detrimental to security, while it does offer some small privacy advantages. Lately, I'll admit, that argument comes up most often as part of a "but what do we do in IPv6 without NAT? All my windows boxen will be exposed naked to the world?" discussion, but, I'd say that's still an IPv4 discussion, not an IPv6 discussion. Without the damage done to IPv4 by NAT, we wouldn't have people who grew up not understanding how networks are supposed to work and unaware that stateful firewalls can work just as well without NAT as with.
Yes, IPv6 is currently a little less fully baked than IPv4. IPv4 is 20 years older than IPv6, so I say that's to be somewhat expected.
Point taken. Anyone have time to try to do a long-term comparative study of discussions on deployment strategies and things like NAT, DHCP, etc, for IPv4 vs. IPv6, factoring in the differing levels of overall Internet adoption at the time of IPv4 adoption vs. IPv6, etc? If so, I have a few other tasks I'd love to have you do... :)
I don't think that's a relevant question. At the time of IPv4 adoption, the internet didn't have WWW or HTTP or much in the way of end users. IPv4 was adopted when SMTP and FTP were the primary applications with the occasional telnet. I think at that time, there was almost as much ping and trace route traffic as anything else (ok, not literally, but you get the idea). However, given that 30 years later, the quality of the IPv4 same old discussions is on par with the quality of the IPv6 same old discussions and IPv6 only wins on quantity at the moment because it's new, I'm not sure anyone really needs a study to confirm that. However, if there's a researcher out there with too much time on their hands, go for it.
As others have said, I guess what it really shows is that nothing ever really changes, and no one (protocol designers, IETF folks, operators, router vendors, etc) is perfect, despite our best efforts to be. :)
Yep. Owen
On Aug 15, 2011 2:15 PM, "Tim Wilde" <twilde@cymru.com> wrote:
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On 8/15/2011 2:24 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
What does it say that the same thing happens in IPv4?
I really don't see a significant difference in that regard.
I will admit to not having run the numbers and trying to compare IPv4 protocol-specific discussion threads vs. IPv6, but it certainly "feels" like there are more. My feeling is also that the IPv6 discussions are much more fundamental, in that they're discussing basic deployment strategies, etc. But it could all be selection bias because it's prominent in the collective mindset, I'll grant you that.
Yes, selection bias. There are some people who like to talk about basic things, state their opinions as facts, and email a lot. I keep trying to come up with a religion analogy, but none are just quite right. Did Copernicus hang around at the Vatican to talk about Heliocentrism ? Cb
Yes, IPv6 is currently a little less fully baked than IPv4. IPv4 is 20 years older than IPv6, so I say that's to be somewhat expected.
Point taken. Anyone have time to try to do a long-term comparative study of discussions on deployment strategies and things like NAT, DHCP, etc, for IPv4 vs. IPv6, factoring in the differing levels of overall Internet adoption at the time of IPv4 adoption vs. IPv6, etc? If so, I have a few other tasks I'd love to have you do... :)
As others have said, I guess what it really shows is that nothing ever really changes, and no one (protocol designers, IETF folks, operators, router vendors, etc) is perfect, despite our best efforts to be. :)
Regards, Tim
- -- Tim Wilde, Senior Software Engineer, Team Cymru, Inc. twilde@cymru.com | +1-630-230-5433 | http://www.team-cymru.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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On 08/14/2011 07:43 PM, Tim Wilde wrote:
On 8/14/2011 8:36 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Yes, they prove that IPv6 is not a viable technology as it currently stands and we should be working on the next big thing, of course! IPv42, here I come!
:) It certainly is being debated back and forth quite a bit. With apparent 0 forward progress being made. It's important that we keep our audience in mind. Yes much v6 is being deployed (Owen and his band of merry men being the notable leaders) and various pockets of link layer availability from the big providers. It's time to just do it already. Mark it experimental. Tell people ZOMG you may have to r3numb3r. Why hasn't anyone capitalized on this opportunity yet and rolled out decent CPE with a fat margin. I mean seriously, why not? Just wrap it in some buzzwords (security, gaming, whatever). The vendors already do that at bestbuy.
On a serious note, though, really, what DOES it say about the real-world maturity / actual chances of adoption for IPv6 that Charles' statement above is, in fact, true?
Well stated. Hopefully folks will chime in with an answer.
or start a flamewar (well, okay, I am trying to start a flamewar, that's what Sunday nights are for :)), it's honestly something that puzzles me. It just doesn't feel right...
Yeah. Same here. It's why I dropped off NANOG. I got tired of the constant bickering. Everyone just needs to do what seems right for their network. What I'm curious about, is how many people actually deployed networks following their preferred method? I mean he.net is clear about what it believes is right and has stuck to it for several years now. Know how long it took me to have v6 working on my network? 10 minutes. Just pfsense and an he.net tunnel. radvd and done. Instant v6 LAN wide. v6.facebook/netflix/google all works. My linux boxes hit v6 mirrors automatically. Sourceforge download via v6. Easy. Boring. Current working theory: If you have other (sane,expected,normal) mitigation techniques in place on your network, dealing with any (perceived?) v6 security issues should be easy I think. I haven't labbed this all up yet. But I will. Soon. Q3 is all about security for me. Expect to see some posts about operationally focused security research in Q3. Because I want to prove/disprove all the things I see flying around. I've got the gear, I've got the time. It's time for the rubber to hit the road. I seem to recall a thread asking v6 status and a bunch of people responding with AS numbers and prefixes. Hopefully that list keeps growing. That's on the provider side of course. Is anyone here not deploying a v6 network, so that someone else doesn't do it for you (which again, it's my feeling that a well engineered "enterprise" LAN wouldn't be susceptible to a lot of the attacks). My memory is a bit fuzzy about all the details. I'll solicit requests for tests in a while, once my current projects are wrapped up. What about all the other folks out there? Who pushed whatever blasted prefix size, or moaned about neighbor table overflows, or about NAT vs FW or whatever other inane nonsense. I WANT MY LINK LAYER NATIVE V6! AND I WANT IT NOW!
Regards, Tim
-- Charles N Wyble charles@knownelement.com @charlesnw on twitter http://blog.knownelement.com Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 08/14/2011 17:43, Tim Wilde wrote:
On a serious note, though, really, what DOES it say about the real-world maturity / actual chances of adoption for IPv6 that Charles' statement above is, in fact, true?
Someone else has already pointed out the relationship of IPv6 now to IPv4 20 years ago, but at the risk of flogging the horse what I get from this is that what we're suffering from is a lack of operational experience, combined with the fact that a significant percentage of the early adopters have at least one toe in the "zealot" pool. :) It's also worth pointing out that even today in IPv4 TI(still)MTOWTDI. Witness the recent IS-IS vs. OSPF thread; or any of the other recurring IPv4-only topics. If you think about it, this is a feature. If there was only one right answer the world-wide market for network engineers would be a lot smaller than it is now. Doug - -- Nothin' ever doesn't change, but nothin' changes much. -- OK Go Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS. Yours for the right price. :) http://SupersetSolutions.com/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJOStUcAAoJEFzGhvEaGryExSoH/2kPPpcR7zTi+HsyYsZ5xbIP 8G3g5/rfi8WAbhNjEzOY+vr+5vQwC02KNxgNdpmemrXEahgq9Na8I8rxT7+GjjUw atZx7Fx6k3uvmdubWOCRn0G0CQ36eq7QHEt4jS2SkzDzC0TF7aWiw8MNxd6FbLv3 Bb7zs/eKut9uO32W+TpWMv2AbN46G6Xjt3lWzWwTzWSuM3MK8FaMR52ZyssLJxnG LfyLGDRUgER2Q7uNvxIeqaGsX87qtpM2SZb7c0kVfxqUnM7vSLcvSHOpuI2R39AJ BkBS+ViDbg30tdhNtC03Brmk6uHBEhLf+aH+1+4b2i3GfS1iG0nNHJP2Lf4Ud5M= =9PGM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
I hope someone will explain the operational relevance of this ...
Sun V100 FreeBSD firewall/border gateway Sun V100 Plan 9 kernel porting test bed Sun V100 OpenBSD build/test/port box Intel 8-core Solaris fileserver and zones host AMDx4 Random OS workstation crash box Epia-EK Plan 9 terminal MacBook x Snow Leopard build/test host Intel-mumble-ITX Win2K8.2 development host Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 File server Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 CPU/Auth server Sun V100 Oracle (blech) new-Solaris test/porting box Sun V100 crashbox for *BSD firewall failover tests Sun V100 *BSD ham radio stuff, plus Plan9 terminal kernal testing.
OK, you've piqued my interest. What use have you found for Plan 9? -B
-----Original Message----- From: Bryan Irvine [mailto:sparctacus@gmail.com] Sent: 15 August 2011 17:42 To: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: How long is your rack?
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
I hope someone will explain the operational relevance of this ...
Sun V100 FreeBSD firewall/border gateway Sun V100 Plan 9 kernel porting test bed Sun V100 OpenBSD build/test/port box Intel 8-core Solaris fileserver and zones host AMDx4 Random OS workstation crash box Epia-EK Plan 9 terminal MacBook x Snow Leopard build/test host Intel-mumble-ITX Win2K8.2 development host Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 File server Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 CPU/Auth server Sun V100 Oracle (blech) new-Solaris test/porting box Sun V100 crashbox for *BSD firewall failover tests Sun V100 *BSD ham radio stuff, plus Plan9 terminal kernal testing.
OK, you've piqued my interest. What use have you found for Plan 9?
How do you guys find time for all this? I used to have a couple of racks of boxes in the basement, then I got married, had three kids and started a Theology PhD program.. Now anything I do at home is purely practical. I took on some ideas for backup though, so I am sorting out a backblaze account and using Randy's fantastic sync thing that he mentioned. I really do not want 18 months of research to vanish. -- Leigh Porter ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________
-----Original Message----- From: Randy Bush [mailto:randy@psg.com] Sent: 16 August 2011 08:37 To: Leigh Porter Cc: North American Network Operators' Group Subject: Re: How long is your rack?
I really do not want 18 months of research to vanish.
a fool and his data are soon parted -- monty williams, a co-worker about 1990
Quite. I do have on-site backups BTW.. But hey, we had riots just down the road from me last week and a few places were burnt out. -- Leigh ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________
On Aug 16, 2011, at 3:03 AM, Leigh Porter wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Bryan Irvine [mailto:sparctacus@gmail.com] Sent: 15 August 2011 17:42 To: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: How long is your rack?
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
I hope someone will explain the operational relevance of this ...
Sun V100 FreeBSD firewall/border gateway Sun V100 Plan 9 kernel porting test bed Sun V100 OpenBSD build/test/port box Intel 8-core Solaris fileserver and zones host AMDx4 Random OS workstation crash box Epia-EK Plan 9 terminal MacBook x Snow Leopard build/test host Intel-mumble-ITX Win2K8.2 development host Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 File server Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 CPU/Auth server Sun V100 Oracle (blech) new-Solaris test/porting box Sun V100 crashbox for *BSD firewall failover tests Sun V100 *BSD ham radio stuff, plus Plan9 terminal kernal testing.
OK, you've piqued my interest. What use have you found for Plan 9?
How do you guys find time for all this? I used to have a couple of racks of boxes in the basement, then I got married, had three kids and started a Theology PhD program.. Now anything I do at home is purely practical.
I took on some ideas for backup though, so I am sorting out a backblaze account and using Randy's fantastic sync thing that he mentioned. I really do not want 18 months of research to vanish.
-- Leigh Porter
One thing about Backblaze is they don't have redundant sites. They have only one facility so if a giant meteor takes it out your data is gone. Amazon's S3 is the way to go for data that matters. Greg
-----Original Message----- From: Greg Ihnen [mailto:os10rules@gmail.com] Sent: 16 August 2011 11:57 To: Leigh Porter Cc: Bryan Irvine; Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX); nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: How long is your rack?
On Aug 16, 2011, at 3:03 AM, Leigh Porter wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Bryan Irvine [mailto:sparctacus@gmail.com] Sent: 15 August 2011 17:42 To: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: How long is your rack?
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
I hope someone will explain the operational relevance of this ...
Sun V100 FreeBSD firewall/border gateway Sun V100 Plan 9 kernel porting test bed Sun V100 OpenBSD build/test/port box Intel 8-core Solaris fileserver and zones host AMDx4 Random OS workstation crash box Epia-EK Plan 9 terminal MacBook x Snow Leopard build/test host Intel-mumble-ITX Win2K8.2 development host Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 File server Supermicro XLS7A Plan 9 CPU/Auth server Sun V100 Oracle (blech) new-Solaris test/porting box Sun V100 crashbox for *BSD firewall failover tests Sun V100 *BSD ham radio stuff, plus Plan9 terminal kernal testing.
OK, you've piqued my interest. What use have you found for Plan 9?
How do you guys find time for all this? I used to have a couple of
racks of boxes in the basement, then I got married, had three kids and started a Theology PhD program.. Now anything I do at home is purely practical.
I took on some ideas for backup though, so I am sorting out a
backblaze account and using Randy's fantastic sync thing that he mentioned. I really do not want 18 months of research to vanish.
-- Leigh Porter
One thing about Backblaze is they don't have redundant sites. They have only one facility so if a giant meteor takes it out your data is gone. Amazon's S3 is the way to go for data that matters.
Greg
I actually used S3 for a while and it was pretty good. I just need a single off-site backup dump. What do people use to automatically sync windows/mac/Linux desktops to something? I am using sugarsync at the moment, I would rather do something myself to sync say whenever I connect to my home network to a home server. -- Leigh ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________
On 08/16/2011 02:33 AM, Leigh Porter wrote:
How do you guys find time for all this?
I live in a smallish apartment that doesn't require much cleaning and have a room mate who handles all the errands/logistics in exchange for free rent and access to my awesome lab. Been doing this for a few years now. Works very well and beats having kids. LOL.
then I got married,
I did a ton more stuff, acquired more gear when I got married. Before I was married I travelled non stop and had nothing more then my laptop and a box at my parents house as my "cloud". Once I settled down, I begin to acquire gear.
had three kids
This will kill off productivity time for sure. Until you have enough of them that are old enough to support site operations. But bootstrapping that is difficult.
and started a Theology PhD program..
I've avoided school. However I'm constantly learning. So I work full time and do about 4 hours a day of hacking. Weekends I do no hacking. This works well for me.
Now anything I do at home is purely practical.
The things I've been doing are practical. I haven't touched the lab rack yet. That's next months project.
I took on some ideas for backup though, so I am sorting out a backblaze account and using Randy's fantastic sync thing that he mentioned. I really do not want 18 months of research to vanish.
Indeed. -- Charles N Wyble charles@knownelement.com @charlesnw on twitter http://blog.knownelement.com Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
On Sun, 2011-08-14 at 13:11 -0700, Leo Bicknell wrote:
So, there you go, a way to star 8 8-port switches off a central switch with the remote switches needing no power. This allows UPS'ing the central switch only, while knowing they will all stay up.
In some cases, that's not always a great idea. Consider the situation whereby a remote "site" served by a remote switch has two or more network devices that rely on another in a local fashion... such as in the case of a NAS or SAN serving a local workgroup of machines. If you have to take down the central switch for whatever reason then you cut power to the remote switch and all the associated end-station lose local network connectivity as well. Of course you can always resort to manually plugging in the remote switches. Can those GS108T-200 perform auto-cutover to AC power? That would be ideal. -- /*=================[ Jake Khuon <khuon@NEEBU.Net> ]=================+ | Packet Plumber, Network Engineers /| / [~ [~ |) | | -------- | | for Effective Bandwidth Utilisation / |/ [_ [_ |) |_| NETWORKS | +==================================================================*/
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Jake Khuon <khuon@neebu.net> wrote:
On Sun, 2011-08-14 at 13:11 -0700, Leo Bicknell wrote:
So, there you go, a way to star 8 8-port switches off a central switch with the remote switches needing no power. This allows UPS'ing the central switch only, while knowing they will all stay up.
In some cases, that's not always a great idea. Consider the situation whereby a remote "site" served by a remote switch has two or more network devices that rely on another in a local fashion... such as in the case of a NAS or SAN serving a local workgroup of machines. If you have to take down the central switch for whatever reason then you cut power to the remote switch and all the associated end-station lose local network connectivity as well.
Of course you can always resort to manually plugging in the remote switches. Can those GS108T-200 perform auto-cutover to AC power? That would be ideal.
Of course, if he had local AC power available, it would kinda defeat one of the points of having PoE, which is to be able to put switches where there isn't a convenient AC drop to begin with. ^_^; Matt
On Sun, 2011-08-14 at 19:07 -0700, Matthew Petach wrote:
Of course, if he had local AC power available, it would kinda defeat one of the points of having PoE, which is to be able to put switches where there isn't a convenient AC drop to begin with. ^_^;
True. Leo's point of being able to centrally provide UPS has merit. I'm just a big believer in minimizing outage effect scope as much as possible mainly because I know for a fact that if I took down my house's central switch, my wife while understanding why she can't reach outside her office would be quite annoyed that everything in her office was unreachable. -- /*=================[ Jake Khuon <khuon@NEEBU.Net> ]=================+ | Packet Plumber, Network Engineers /| / [~ [~ |) | | -------- | | for Effective Bandwidth Utilisation / |/ [_ [_ |) |_| NETWORKS | +==================================================================*/
Of course, if he had local AC power available, it would kinda defeat one of the points of having PoE, which is to be able to put switches where there isn't a convenient AC drop to begin with.
But wait, there is more... Maybe you want your POE devices (like phones) to stay alive during a power failure, without having to put UPS's everywhere. And anything else that is POE (cameras, thermostats, etc)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Bicknell" <bicknell@ufp.org>
The GS110TP is a 8 port 10/100/1000 w/POE + 2 port SFP switch, no fan: http://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart-switches/GS110TP.asp...
Note that it only has a 48w power budget, so it can't do full power on each port.
The GS108T-200 is the companion switch, 8 ports 10/100/1000 and it can be powered by POE on the uplink port: http://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart-switches/GS108T-200....
It uses 6W, so 8 ports * 6W is 48W, hey, you can put one of these on every port on the GS110TP! I have a feeling that's exactly what Netgear was thinking!
Probably. It occurs to me to wonder why no one makes, say, a 24 port POE switch with only enough full power budget for 4-6 ports, *but binding posts on the back for -48*, so if you need to build a Really Big Switch, you can just feed it from as big a rectifier/battery stack as you want. Or *is* there one, and I just haven't come across it yet? :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers?
a soekris 5501 running freebsd 8-stable a mac mini connected to the tee vee an apple tv connected to the tee vee i moved all servers and such crap into real racks in real colos over a decade ago. i don't want that kind of crap in my *home*. randy
Mine is mostly server stuff, as that is my primary function. Router testing is usually done at the office In the utility room in the basement: 4-post rack with the following: Tripp Lite 5000VA UPS with extra battery (everything runs on 240V) NetApp FAS980 with a single shelf of 500GB SATA drives (used as off-site backup for work, and minor hosting of my own) A few home-made servers (AMD 6-core box for virtualization and mail/web hosting, core i3 box for backups and such) Dell 24-port switch Juniper SRX 220 (Main firewall/gateway) connected to TWC Cable modem, and a metro ethernet back to the office. Various ancient routers, switches, servers, etc. that were at one time used for testing. Virtualization has pretty much obsoleted most of it. In my home office I have: 2 3000VA Tripp Lite UPSes for all computers. Mac Pro 2x MacBook Pros Core i7 Hackintosh Around the house we have other various clients, media center, etc. I recently did an audit of everything and I have a total of 108 GHz of CPU cores, 59 GB of RAM, and 57 TB of hard drives across everything. Overall pretty modest compared to some people, but I also don't want to have to have special electric service or the bill that goes with that! -Randy -- | Randy Carpenter | Vice President - IT Services | Red Hat Certified Engineer | First Network Group, Inc. | (800)578-6381, Opt. 1 ----
On 08/12/2011 01:28 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Hey all,
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
Call me lazy, skinflint or otherwise, but I don't have much equipment at home and only very occasionally wish I had something extra. Mind you I'm more sysadmin than network and mostly my fiddling stuff is server side rather than network. Straight forward setup, get internet with our TV over cable. Linksys WRT54GL running DD-WRT, set up to provide us with an HE IPv6 tunnel and wifi for a roku, my wife's laptop, my desktop machine and cell-phone. DD-WRT gives me sufficient balance between working 'out-of-the-box' and flexibility to do what I like. If I've spent all day arguing with software/servers the last thing I want to do is argue with a router. Besides which, if something should happen I don't want to have to spend time getting it up and working. It's quick to factory reset it and then tack the extra functions on afterwards over time. We've also got a cheap Synology home NAS device plugged into the back of the router which we use primarily for backups and the odd bit of file sharing. Again, I'm quite capable of building something like that from scratch myself but it works out-of-the-box, is expandable for storage, fairly low power, nearly silent and is extremely flexible running some form of embedded linux distribution that you can access if you need to. Paul
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com>wrote:
Hey all,
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
My last house engineering project went out with my 40+ PC XT/AT/386 Fido BBS/Usenet Hub (I remember picking up that 10megs of ram for my first 386 at a cool $10k back in the 80's :) ) in 1992 or thereabouts when I finally managed to get on the web :) Now its a file server/media server feeding the house, PC/laptop and tablet for the wife (which I "borrow" on occasion), a few switches and routers and a firewall, and I just splurged and got me a new Alienware Dual GPU game computer for me :) Retirement means playing with games more than routers/servers/etc these days :) cheers Jeff
In a message written on Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 06:57:56PM -0700, Chaim Rieger wrote:
What nobody wired their abode with fiber ?
Am i the only one here
Why? Unless you live in a HUGE house, you can do 10GE over copper to all rooms. Copper is infinately easier to run and terminate. I dunno about you, but 10GE is both out of my price range, and useless given the speed of my NAS disks, Comcast cable modem, and WiFI box. GigE, switched, is quite nice and affordable. Now, if you have to run to another building on the property (even just a detached garage) fiber is the way to go due to ground loops, but that's a slightly different story... -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
On Aug 12, 2011 7:02 PM, "Leo Bicknell" <bicknell@ufp.org> wrote:
In a message written on Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 06:57:56PM -0700, Chaim
Rieger wrote:
What nobody wired their abode with fiber ?
Am i the only one here
Why? Unless you live in a HUGE house, you can do 10GE over copper to all rooms. Copper is infinately easier to run and terminate. I dunno about you, but 10GE is both out of my price range, and useless given the speed of my NAS disks, Comcast cable modem, and WiFI box. GigE, switched, is quite nice and affordable.
Now, if you have to run to another building on the property (even just a detached garage) fiber is the way to go due to ground loops, but that's a slightly different story...
I have both, 10ge and fiber. Ran it more for the dare than anything else
-- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
On 8/12/2011 7:02 PM, Leo Bicknell wrote:
Why? Unless you live in a HUGE house, you can do 10GE over copper to all rooms. Copper is infinately easier to run and terminate. I dunno about you, but 10GE is both out of my price range, and useless given the speed of my NAS disks, Comcast cable modem, and WiFI box. GigE, switched, is quite nice and affordable. Now, if you have to run to another building on the property (even just a detached garage) fiber is the way to go due to ground loops, but that's a slightly different story... Leo I have a spare 10Ge 48 port switch that you can have, if you ask nicely.
On 8/12/11 11:59 PM, Chaim Rieger wrote:
On 8/12/2011 7:02 PM, Leo Bicknell wrote:
Why? Unless you live in a HUGE house, you can do 10GE over copper to all rooms. Copper is infinately easier to run and terminate. I dunno about you, but 10GE is both out of my price range, and useless given the speed of my NAS disks, Comcast cable modem, and WiFI box. GigE, switched, is quite nice and affordable. Now, if you have to run to another building on the property (even just a detached garage) fiber is the way to go due to ground loops, but that's a slightly different story... Leo I have a spare 10Ge 48 port switch that you can have, if you ask nicely.
I'll take one too if your handing them out :) "Free 10gig for everyone!" -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
On 8/13/2011 01:59, Chaim Rieger wrote:
On 8/12/2011 7:02 PM, Leo Bicknell wrote:
Why? Unless you live in a HUGE house, you can do 10GE over copper to all rooms. Copper is infinately easier to run and terminate. I dunno about you, but 10GE is both out of my price range, and useless given the speed of my NAS disks, Comcast cable modem, and WiFI box. GigE, switched, is quite nice and affordable. Now, if you have to run to another building on the property (even just a detached garage) fiber is the way to go due to ground loops, but that's a slightly different story... Leo I have a spare 10Ge 48 port switch that you can have, if you ask nicely.
I'll throw in a 4 post gruber rack for anyone that wants to pick it up. I'm in the bay area by St Pete beach. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice 727-214-2508 - Fax http://bryanfields.net
Leo,
Why? Unless you live in a HUGE house, you can do 10GE over copper to all rooms. Copper is infinately easier to run and terminate.
Because you need optical so that you can run the feed into the backup servers in the EMP protected room? :-) (I have a shelter that had to be added for building technical reasons, and I ended up adding some Faraday cage features before concrete was poured. I haven't tested it for EMP though :-) But I don't have the optical gear as it has been very expensive, at least if one wants to go beyond 100mbit/s. At least last time I checked. Pointers for cheap 1gbit/s or beyond gear welcome.) Jari
I have not found a fiber-to-Ethernet adapter for sufficiently low cost. If I ever do, backyard Gigabit, here I come. On Aug 12, 2011, at 9:57 PM, Chaim Rieger wrote:
What nobody wired their abode with fiber ?
Am i the only one here
James R. Cutler james.cutler@consultant.com
What nobody wired their abode with fiber ?
Am i the only one here
I ran a bunch of fiber from the telco rack to the server rack to reduce the risk of damage to expensive servers ... it's likely to be meaningless but it is just a little extra precaution. The server rack is at least a little bit isolated from everything else. ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net "We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN) With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.
On Aug 12, 2011, at 10:17 39PM, Joe Greco wrote:
What nobody wired their abode with fiber ?
Am i the only one here
I ran a bunch of fiber from the telco rack to the server rack to reduce the risk of damage to expensive servers ... it's likely to be meaningless but it is just a little extra precaution. The server rack is at least a little bit isolated from everything else.
That's overkill. I have very little in the house except what's needed to support ordinary client machines for everyone in the house. That means GigE to several locations, some of which have small GigE switches of their own. For example, my wife's computer is colocated with a network-connected color printer/scanner/fax. The basement location has a WiFi access point, the home backup server (though lately, I've started using a colo machine for that), etc. For me -- two generations of laptops (one as backup for the other), and a Mac Mini as backup desktop. Then there's another access point, a B&W laser printer, etc. But anything noisy? Nope. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
I have a 12 pack of single mode run between wiring closets upstairs and downstairs. Only one server running feeding media to my xbmc's everywhere but quite a bit on gig. Nothing overly noisy unless you have your head in the closets. Eric -----Original Message----- From: Steven Bellovin [mailto:smb@cs.columbia.edu] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 9:59 PM To: Joe Greco Cc: nanog@nanog.org; Jeff Johnstone Subject: Re: NANOGers home data centers - What's in your closet? On Aug 12, 2011, at 10:17 39PM, Joe Greco wrote:
What nobody wired their abode with fiber ?
Am i the only one here
I ran a bunch of fiber from the telco rack to the server rack to reduce the risk of damage to expensive servers ... it's likely to be meaningless but it is just a little extra precaution. The server rack is at least a little bit isolated from everything else.
That's overkill. I have very little in the house except what's needed to support ordinary client machines for everyone in the house. That means GigE to several locations, some of which have small GigE switches of their own. For example, my wife's computer is colocated with a network-connected color printer/scanner/fax. The basement location has a WiFi access point, the home backup server (though lately, I've started using a colo machine for that), etc. For me -- two generations of laptops (one as backup for the other), and a Mac Mini as backup desktop. Then there's another access point, a B&W laser printer, etc. But anything noisy? Nope. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
On 08/12/2011 10:08 PM, Eric Krichbaum wrote:
I have a 12 pack of single mode run between wiring closets upstairs and downstairs.
Nice. I can't wait to get my next house and be able to say exactly that phrase. LOL.
Only one server running feeding media to my xbmc's everywhere but quite a bit on gig.
Xbmc is awesome. How are you sending the media? UPNP? Network share?
Nothing overly noisy unless you have your head in the closets.
Sure. What do you have in your IDF? Do you have just one IDF (upstairs closet) and then MDF downstairs? Or is that another IDF?
Eric
Eric Krichbaum <eric@telic.us> wrote:
I have a 12 pack of single mode run between wiring closets upstairs and downstairs. Only one server running feeding media to my xbmc's everywhere but quite a bit on gig. Nothing overly noisy unless you have your head in the closets.
Eric
Anyone got experience with XBMC and similar linux media centre tools running on tablet or netbook class hardware? I like the idea of using a couple of el cheapo Android tablets with decent external speakers as music/video/TV/phone terminals, getting content from a NAS box and perhaps phone from a * server. Roku etc. are far, far too expensive for what they do. Alternatively, Eric, what are your XBMCs running on?
-----Original Message----- From: Steven Bellovin [mailto:smb@cs.columbia.edu] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 9:59 PM To: Joe Greco Cc: nanog@nanog.org; Jeff Johnstone Subject: Re: NANOGers home data centers - What's in your closet?
On Aug 12, 2011, at 10:17 39PM, Joe Greco wrote:
What nobody wired their abode with fiber ?
Am i the only one here
I ran a bunch of fiber from the telco rack to the server rack to reduce the risk of damage to expensive servers ... it's likely to be
meaningless but it is just a little extra precaution. The server rack is at least a little bit isolated from everything else.
That's overkill. I have very little in the house except what's needed to support ordinary client machines for everyone in the house. That means GigE to several locations, some of which have small GigE switches of their own. For example, my wife's computer is colocated with a network-connected color printer/scanner/fax. The basement location has a WiFi access point, the home backup server (though lately, I've started using a colo machine for that), etc. For me -- two generations of laptops (one as backup for the other), and a Mac Mini as backup desktop. Then there's another access point, a B&W laser printer, etc. But anything noisy? Nope.
--Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
-- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
-----Original Message-----
Anyone got experience with XBMC and similar linux media centre tools running on tablet or netbook class hardware? I like the idea of using a couple of el cheapo Android tablets with decent external speakers as music/video/TV/phone terminals, getting content from a >NAS box and perhaps phone from a * server.
Roku etc. are far, far too expensive for what they do.
Alternatively, Eric, what are your XBMCs running on?
-- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
I've got the Tvix 6600 HD also and it's an awesome media player but yes, too expensive for what it does. My xbmc boxes are AppleTv's running Ubuntu Hardy and XBMC with the wireless card replaced by a Broadcom HD encoder for 1080P. The work very well. I haven't sync'd the libraries together yet but really should. Centralized libraries for them all would be a fantastic next step and give me features like pause in one room, resume in another but it's not come up. More complete scheme is Cisco POE switches on the two floors feeding the floor with 2 Gig via fiber LAG between. I had the 12 pack trunk which is why I ran it instead of just individual pairs. It'll make transition easier if I have to go to 100G backbone. Heheheheh Netgear APs on each floor for coverage. Media server is a Supermicro 12 bay with Dual 3.0 Xeons, 4 gig of Ram and 10TB of drive space running linux. Shares to Apple TV are via NFS. Eric
On 8/13/11 4:01 AM, Alexander Harrowell wrote:
Anyone got experience with XBMC and similar linux media centre tools running on tablet or netbook class hardware? I like the idea of using a couple of el cheapo Android tablets with decent external speakers as music/video/TV/phone terminals, getting content from a NAS box and perhaps phone from a * server.
Roku etc. are far, far too expensive for what they do.
I run a couple of xbmc instances using atom based nvidia ION systems. There are a couple of netbook|top class systems that sport these chipsets for a decent price but I don't know that they are as cheap as a roku can be had for.
On 08/12/2011 09:17 PM, Joe Greco wrote:
What nobody wired their abode with fiber ?
Am i the only one here I ran a bunch of fiber from the telco rack
What's in the telco rack? This is in your house? What's on it?
to the server rack to reduce the risk of damage to expensive servers ... it's likely to be meaningless but it is just a little extra precaution. The server rack is at least a little bit isolated from everything else.
Servers have fiber cards? Or is it fiber between switches only?
On 08/12/2011 09:17 PM, Joe Greco wrote:
What nobody wired their abode with fiber ?
Am i the only one here I ran a bunch of fiber from the telco rack
What's in the telco rack? This is in your house? What's on it?
Demarc and lightning suppressors for T1, 2xISDN BRI, DSL, cable, satellite, a USR Courier V.Everything for backup paging, a USR Courier I-Modem for 56K-capable OOB dialin to the network, which will have some people today scratching their heads, but made sense back in 2000. I killed our ISDN service earlier this year because VoIP has become a better choice for voice and because I hadn't been stranded in any hotels without Internet or 3G coverage in like half a decade; the OOB dial-in simply wasn't being used any more, and I deemed it obsolete. Technically that's all on the plywood and not on the rack itself. The rack is where all the house ethernet terminates, and also holds switches for the house ethernet, an Adtran 550 for format conversion (BRI/POTS/etc -> T1) to our Asterisk environment, the Asterisk box that has a T1 card to handle that, some KVM-over-IP gear in the DMZ, two managed power strips, two rack ATS's, and three APC 1400's (one of which backs up the two primary units). Most of my stuff runs between moderately old to seriously ancient, because a lot of it is gear that's been recycled out of data center production use.
to the server rack to reduce the risk of damage to expensive servers ... it's likely to be meaningless but it is just a little extra precaution. The server rack is at least a little bit isolated from everything else.
Servers have fiber cards? Or is it fiber between switches only?
http://www.sol.net/tmp/nanog/serverrack.jpg No laughing, it's in the messy phase, I'll get all ticked off in a few months and clean it all up again. But that only happens every year or two. Three switches in the top of the server rack, with a 2xGE LACP trunk running in a loop through them; four multimode fibers go from there to the telco rack as part of that loop to the switches in the telco rack. Then there's fiber over to the workshop bench switch to keep that electrically isolated as well. The OOB management network also has a 10Mbps fiber between the telco rack and the server rack. So I think it never got to the point where I was using more than seven of the dozen runs. I never really originally intended to make much use of the server rack; it was meant as a place to stick rack mount gear being played with or fixed, and as a home for the house fileserver. However, as luck would have it, in 2004? 2005? I had reason to re-examime the way we were running things, and it became clear that there was an obvious split between stuff that was high-bandwidth-100%-availability and low-bandwidth-just-should-be-available, and so I closed our Milw POP and moved the high bandwidth stuff out to Ashburn, and the low bandwidth stuff here. Saved hundreds of dollars per month plus also reduced heating bills in the winter. :-) Some of that's been reduced through virtualization of course, but growth in the network always seems to kind of balance that out somewhat. ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net "We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN) With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.
On 12 August 2011 19:28, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com> wrote:
Hey all,
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
*snip* Just finished putting it together this evening, replaced a pile (quite literally) of stuff, including a Linksys WRT54G running OpenWRT as WAP, and a Cisco 1811 with one fried WAN port. Current setup is a Leviton Structured Media Cabinet, with a Allied Telesis 8 port PoE 10/100 switch, a Mikrotik RB750G, and a Cisco 1131 AP. Three VLANs, Data, Voice, and Guest, complete with authentication gateway, and one hell of a QoS configuration.
Subject: NANOGers home data centers - What's in your closet? Date: Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 06:28:57PM -0500 Quoting Charles N Wyble (charles@knownelement.com):
Hey all,
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers?
I'm trying not to have anything. Mail, AFS fileserver, shell host, etc are in a colo. But, I fail. Current telecoms shack (laundry room, because there Telia terminates) has Cisco 837 terminating DSL, doing NAT and HE.net tunnel endpoint (where's my t-shirt, Owen? ;-), linksys AP and some patching, both for POTS and Ethernet. The garage is currently only FE, thanks to only two pairs available in the cable there. I'm planning for SM fibre to the garage. I'm doing a distributed patching solution in order to be able to use existing conduit as much as possible for higher WAF. (There is HAF as well, but in our home it's less likely to impact cabling.) The media / living room has a new-built wall in which I've installed a Rittal 32U rack frame. Its back will be encased in drywall and looks just like a wine storage fridge, thanks to its perspex door. There I've got an 24-port switch, a patch panel, and all media gear, players for CD and DVD, NFS server for my slightly altered Samsung TV, etc. The analog patch panel (4.4mm Bantam jacks, 96-point jackfield, all balanced) for audio together with distribution amplifiers and Arduino based power sequencing and multiroom switching will be there too. The bedroom floor will get a patch panel and a silent GE/FE switch, just to have two-four Ethernet jacks per bedroom. The garage, finally, will have a 42HE cabinet standing on top of raised flooring in a to-be-constructed partition of the garage, also doubling as workshop and non-freezing storage area. I guess I'll keep the room above freezing with servers running. Equipment there is a bit uncertain, but probably will be host for thin clients, backup server, tape library, GE switch, and UPS, possibly some museum equipment too. This takes ages to build. I've got a life, sort of. -- Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina MN-1334-RIPE +46 705 989668 I would like to urinate in an OVULAR, porcelain pool --
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com> wrote:
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
In my basement: I use a Sparcserver 690mp cabinet from 1992. 19" with 10/32 threaded holes. The interesting thing about this cabinet is that to the side of the main 5' rack, there are an additional set of two 3U spaces turned 90 degrees so the equipment is mounted on its side. Great for mounting the switches and routers. Holds 3 of my HP-based Linux servers (3ghz, 2 to 4 processors each, single core), plus a sun box and a linux server for two of my friends. I also have a Sparcserver 1000 sitting on top of the cabinet although I haven't powered it up in years. 8 processors, 4 motherboards, 2 gigs of ram. Got it on a lark... When I attended GA tech way back when, they replaced the campus mainframe, a Sequent S81 (called "hydra"), with a Sparc Center 2000 (called "acme"). The Sun couldn't handle the load -- it kept crashing. Eventually they supplemented it with a pair of Sparcserver 1000s. Between the three machines, things stabilized. So I joke I that I have one third of my college mainframe in my basement. I use a mix of APC SmartUPS 3000's and 1400's picked up at flea markets and the like, never for more than $20. Modified to take batteries about double the ordinary amp-hours. 5kva gasoline generator with a pull cord. Need somthing better. Multihomed with a legacy /23 from down in the swamp using BGP via tunneling over Cox and Verizon Fios physical lines. Argued with ARIN to get the AS number -- I had to register myself as an organization and it took some effort to convey that that yes, and individual human being (not a company) owned and ran a multihomed network. They wanted proof of the organization's existence so I sent a copy of my driver's license. Firewall box is separate, sitting by a desk. Cox firewall runs in one VM; Verizon firewall in another, both on a single machine bridging ethernet ports into the VMs. I keep the firewall separate because of all the cables coming in and out. The cabinet needs only two cables: one power and one ethernet. That way I can wheel it around easily without shutting it off. I have a spare Sparcserver 690mp cabinet that I will never need but can't bear to throw away. Anyone in northern VA need vintage cabinet? Beware: it's steel and *very* solid. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin ................ herrin@dirtside.com bill@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/> Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com> wrote:
Hey all,
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
I try to maximize cost-effectiveness wherever possible, thus I have some extremely inexpensive solutions for the usual power/cooling issues. When I built my house, I drew in a 6'x6' room in my unfinished basement, strategically located between the breaker panel and nearest outside wall. Crazy-huge cost savings: CyberPower CSW8RU RPS for the devices that don't need to run continuously. These devices pay for themselves within a month or two, and the interface is Lynx-friendly. The main limitation is that they only handle 15A each at this price/model. 2x 20A and 2x 15A dedicated circuits w/appropriate Tripp-lite rack-mounted surge suppressors. Cooling & humidity control provided by Frigidaire FRA12EPT1 12,000 BTU Portable Heat/Cool Air Conditioner. This was incredibly inexpensive and easy to install. The key was to heavily insulate the 6" exhaust duct and correctly run the drain line. Half-rack and 3U wall rack from RackSolutions. CyberPower UPSes for the devices that do need to remain on (batteries last far longer than APC, in my experience). Two VMware ESXi servers built from commodity parts from MicroCenter. (Multiple physical Intel NICs with myriad vNICs.) NAS from Synology with WD drives. Between the omni-format media server, the rsync services for server backups, and sleep (power-saving) modes, this thing is an incredible value. Filtering on an old physical server; recently converted from FreeBSD to CentOS (multiple physical NICs). Routing on borrowed gear from work (thus it changes regularly) and a Vyatta instance. Switching on an old Foundry 24-port (refurbished). <-- I suspect this is not power-efficient, but it's feature-rich and these things run forever... Local wireless on NetGear running DD-WRT. Considering moving to OpenWRT since development seems a bit more active. Home laptops (semi-recent Dells, bought refurbished from MicroCenter) running Ubuntu LTS. Bonus: Wife fully-accustomed to running on Ubuntu -- the only Windows "box" is a VM that's usually suspended :D. Bandwidth via Comcast; DOCSIS 3.0. v6 via HE.
On 8/12/2011 7:28 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Hey all,
I'm curious what other NANOGers have in their home compute centers? On the extreme end of course we have mr morris :) with his uber lab: http://smorris.uber-geek.net/lab.htm
I've got the following:
Production rack (4 post AV rack)
From top down: Current primary internet connection, soon to be out of band internet connection (Wimax from Clearwire) Ubiquity Networks Nanostation2 based AP (MeshPotato via the VillageTelco project)<< serving up 3 SSID (bridge to main vlan, guest, honeypot) Linksys WRT54G T-mobile version<< not doing anything at the moment
3 dell optiplex 745s
PFSense router (WAN to clearwire, LAN to Cisco 3550) AlientVault server (amazing software package) Proxmox server (another great software package)
I have also considered turning all 3 machines into Proxmox boxes and run everything in a virtual machine. I like the Dell Optiplex machines, they sip power.
APC UPS (considering a rack mount UPS and will probably buy one this weekend from the local Goodwill computer works store) PS3<< gotta get my parallel hacking on Avocent Cyclades PDU (unused currently as my apartment wiring won't support it) Cisco 3550 Distribution Switch Cisco 2950 Access Switch Dell PowerEge 1800 Dell PowerEdge 2800
I've got a network lab rack (skeletek) as well. This hosts a 6509 and other fun things (cisco routers/switches). Pretty sure I can do any CCNA/CCNP/CCIE(R&S) lab scenario).
So what's in NANOGers home networks/compute centers? :)
I have one rack of stuff..:) I have three 3500 series switches. Then an hp 1005 on a shelf. I then have my tower(custom build) and ups on another shelf. Behind the computer is my 8 port gigabit switch. The 3500 are not in use at the moment. I have a dell sc420 running astaro and a dell t110 running server 2k8 r2 standard. The other network consists of my "sick computer area" and my sprint airave. I utilize the airave's built in switch to provide connectivity to sick computers. Nothing hugely special but it fits into one rack with the sick computer area on a small table next to it..:)
On 08/16/2011 03:28 PM, William Warren wrote:
On 8/12/2011 7:28 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Hey all,
I have one rack of stuff..:)
Not Enough! We will be removing you now.... from the list that is. :)
I then have my tower(custom build) and ups on another shelf.
What kind of UPS? Seems most here prefer APC. Perhaps that's a topic for another thread...
I have a dell sc420 running astaro
Interesting. I have a download of astaro. I should play with it soon. Coworkers recently mentioned Astaro. So maybe it's reached a tipping point and time for me to mess with it. -- Charles N Wyble charles@knownelement.com @charlesnw on twitter http://blog.knownelement.com Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com> wrote:
What kind of UPS? Seems most here prefer APC. Perhaps that's a topic for another thread...
I can usually get used APC SmartUPSes on the cheap. When the batteries go bad or are removed, they play dead. They don't turn themselves off, but the next time they lose power they won't turn back on. They become completely unresponsive. No lights. No response to the buttons. Nothing. Because they play dead, people think they are dead and sell them "for parts." 9 times out of 10, the only "part" needed is a new battery. With a little patience I can generally get the AP9605 ethernet SNMP card for the smartupses on eBay for well under ten bucks. Name brand snmp managed ups for the price of dirt. Why would I use anything else? Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin ................ herrin@dirtside.com bill@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/> Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
In a message written on Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 05:17:09PM -0500, Charles N Wyble wrote:
What kind of UPS? Seems most here prefer APC. Perhaps that's a topic for another thread...
If you want products available at the local big box retailer APC is pretty much the only quality choice. If you're willing to go to more effort to get one there are better choices. All the actual EE's I know are most impressed with the PowerWare (now Eaton Power) designs. For insance their 5110 is a line-interactive design built with quality components. The last I looked APC did not have a line-interactive design in this price range; they were all the "standby" design. Eaton does have some cheaper standby units, I can't make any comment about them. With any UPS the key is replacing the batteries at the appropriate time. Most batteries are rated for 3-5 years. If conditions are right, you might be able to push that to 6 or so. If your battery is older than that, replace it or you might as well not have a UPS. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
All the actual EE's I know are most impressed with the PowerWare (now Eaton Power) designs. For insance their 5110 is a line-interactive design built with quality components. The last I looked APC did not have a line-interactive design in this price range; they were all the "standby" design. Eaton does have some cheaper standby units, I can't make any comment about them.
Most EE's don't deal with day to day operations of datacenters. We have been a long time (14 years) user of Exide / Powerware / Invensys / Eaton UPS systems. I have many 9315 and 9395's, ranging from 80 kva to 500 kva. They are generally good units. It is clear that as time as gone forward (9315 to 9395 transition) that the quality of build has gone done, cheaper components, etc. Simply look at the weight differences, that speaks a lot. Eaton service is expensive. Emergency parts availability is sometimes an issue. I have heard that because of less-than-stellar market acceptance of 9395, they are modernizing the 9315, which was originally to be EOL'ed. I am not sure what that means. Our last build, after serious consideration, we decided to go with GE SG500's. In my experience, they are a much better engineered unit, with a considerably more knowledgeable sales and service contingent. I can't speak about the 5110.
With any UPS the key is replacing the batteries at the appropriate time. Most batteries are rated for 3-5 years. If conditions are right, you might be able to push that to 6 or so. If your battery is older than that, replace it or you might as well not have a UPS.
This is an entirely different conversation. Battery monitoring is a requirement. Btech (and others) allow for daily visibility of battery health and failure trends. If you don't have this, you aren't serious about your datacenter. Batteries can fail anywhere from 4 minutes to 10 years after they are installed, and they never fail all at once.. so why replace them all at once?
In a message written on Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:07:15PM -0400, Alex Rubenstein wrote:
Most EE's don't deal with day to day operations of datacenters.
We have been a long time (14 years) user of Exide / Powerware / Invensys / Eaton UPS systems. I have many 9315 and 9395's, ranging from 80 kva to 500 kva.
I perhaps should have clarified in my original post... Since this was the what do NANOG folks have at home I had self-limited to UPS's maybe 2.5kva and under. Desktop and small rack mount units, sub-$400 boxes. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
On 2011-08-16 20:07, Alex Rubenstein wrote:
All the actual EE's I know are most impressed with the PowerWare (now Eaton Power) designs.
Most EE's don't deal with day to day operations of datacenters.
That may be, but I can personally attest that they're often consulted when UPSes for mission-critical installations need to be spec'd out. (And by "mission-critical," I'm not talking about datacenters.) Jima
On 8/16/2011 6:17 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
On 08/16/2011 03:28 PM, William Warren wrote:
On 8/12/2011 7:28 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Hey all,
I have one rack of stuff..:) Not Enough! We will be removing you now.... from the list that is. :)
I then have my tower(custom build) and ups on another shelf. What kind of UPS? Seems most here prefer APC. Perhaps that's a topic for another thread...
I have a dell sc420 running astaro Interesting. I have a download of astaro. I should play with it soon. Coworkers recently mentioned Astaro. So maybe it's reached a tipping point and time for me to mess with it.
it is an apc backups ns 1250. only the two servers are on it. Everything else is hoked to the non battery side of the ups. Once i have a bit more time i'll get a detailed diagram posted..:) Once i get kvm working i'll decom the sc and t105.
Friends of mine recently bought a large traditionally-designed house. The former "servant's quarters" are now the server room.
participants (47)
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Alex Rubenstein
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Alexander Harrowell
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Arthur Clark
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Bill Stewart
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Blake T. Pfankuch
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Brielle Bruns
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Bryan Fields
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Bryan Irvine
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Cameron Byrne
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Chaim Rieger
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Charles N Wyble
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Cutler James R
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Dave CROCKER
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David Miller
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Doug Barton
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Eric Krichbaum
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Greg Ihnen
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Jake Khuon
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Jake Khuon
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jari.arkko@piuha.net
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Jay Ashworth
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Jeff Hartley
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Jeff Johnstone
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Jeff Kell
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Jeffrey S. Young
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Jeremy Parr
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Jima
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Joe Greco
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Leigh Porter
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Leo Bicknell
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Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX)
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Matt Ryanczak
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Matthew Palmer
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Matthew Petach
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Mike Mainer
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Måns Nilsson
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Owen DeLong
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Paul Graydon
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Randy Bush
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Randy Carpenter
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Scott Morris
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Steven Bellovin
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Thomas Crowe
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Tim Wilde
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Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu
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William Herrin
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William Warren