Google to offer fiber to end users
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-10/google-plans-to-build-high-speed... http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h... What do folks think? Granted it's very early on, and g00g could decide to never leave the announce phase. - -- Charles N Wyble Linux Systems Engineer (818)280-7059 charles@knownelement.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAktzF2sACgkQJmrRtQ6zKE91lwCgjdYmEewZtPb2iFM6VZMW5Xce ydkAoI+ycZQ1JYLoZt7yL04CliGXRLoc =4eps -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 2/10/2010 12:30, Charles N Wyble wrote:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-10/google-plans-to-build-high-speed... http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h...
What do folks think?
Optimistic view: It can force the incumbents into being competitive on service and everyone wins. Pessimistic view: incumbents feel threatened and try to sue/lobby it away to keep the status quo like they did with cities trying to offer wifi or FTTH. ~Seth
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Seth Mattinen <sethm@rollernet.us> wrote:
On 2/10/2010 12:30, Charles N Wyble wrote:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-10/google-plans-to-build-high-speed...
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h...
What do folks think?
Optimistic view: It can force the incumbents into being competitive on service and everyone wins.
Pessimistic view: incumbents feel threatened and try to sue/lobby it away to keep the status quo like they did with cities trying to offer wifi or FTTH.
Google cash > Muni cash. I'm not saying it'll work, but they have many more resources at their disposal. Incumbents should be worried.
~Seth
-- Brandon Galbraith Mobile: 630.400.6992 FNAL: 630.840.2141
I think it's great! I've been preparing to float a similar idea locally. If this is how they use their market cap, I would love for them to do it in my local market, which does seem to hold a near-and-dear place in the heart of some google C* types. - Jared * Local details/breakdown: http://puck.nether.net/~jared/blog/?p=84 On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-10/google-plans-to-build-high-speed... http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h...
What do folks think?
Granted it's very early on, and g00g could decide to never leave the announce phase.
- -- Charles N Wyble Linux Systems Engineer (818)280-7059 charles@knownelement.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jared Mauch wrote:
I think it's great!
I've been preparing to float a similar idea locally.
If this is how they use their market cap, I would love for them to do it in my local market, which does seem to hold a near-and-dear place in the heart of some google C* types.
- Jared
* Local details/breakdown: http://puck.nether.net/~jared/blog/?p=84
Awesome write up. Has anyone in the NANOG community been approached by google? I mean presumably this would require a massive coordination effort with existing exchange points etc. Or is google going to simply build an entire long haul network as well? Perhaps combine this with the containers? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAktzK9MACgkQJmrRtQ6zKE/doQCgxcwc6iDbrDHKCAD0qjqMFBWP f/MAoIVdGf3cbbGj5Q5pYqFzHadhUw9l =jSgj -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com>wrote:
Awesome write up.
Has anyone in the NANOG community been approached by google? I mean presumably this would require a massive coordination effort with existing exchange points etc. Or is google going to simply build an entire long haul network as well? Perhaps combine this with the containers?
My assumption was Google already had their long haul network up and running (since 07-08): http://www.google.com/search?q=google+dark+fiber -brandon
On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:57 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
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Jared Mauch wrote:
I think it's great!
I've been preparing to float a similar idea locally.
If this is how they use their market cap, I would love for them to do it in my local market, which does seem to hold a near-and-dear place in the heart of some google C* types.
- Jared
* Local details/breakdown: http://puck.nether.net/~jared/blog/?p=84
Awesome write up.
Has anyone in the NANOG community been approached by google? I mean presumably this would require a massive coordination effort with existing exchange points etc. Or is google going to simply build an entire long haul network as well? Perhaps combine this with the containers?
Thanks. I want to codify it to something more (average) human-readable before I socialize it in the local community. This sort of investment could have some immediate payback, esp if you have local utility (water, power) buy-in. The challenge I see is having the political will to undertake the project. If you adjust rates up over the first few years until the principal is paid off, the payoff could happen in short-order and remain competitive. Deploying microcell/picocell technology would be easy and could save people like AT&T Mobility/Cingular part of their billions they look to pay for network upgrades. A large scale project here could possibly be done (on-poles) for as low as $44m, and possibly lower as economies of scale come in to play. I'm hoping someone here reading from GOOG will suggest to any local Ann Arbor Alum (eg: Larry Page) that this would be a chump-change investment that would revolutionize telecommunication in the US. I scaled my model up to Michigan-size (for fun) and came up with a cost somewhere around 1 Billion to run fiber down every public roadway. Taking the GOOG market cap of ~170Bln, and if I consider Michigan average (don't know, but please stick with me), this could be done for a small part of their market cap, and ROI could be at a reasonable speed. GE and 10GE optics that can do 70km are cheap, sometimes lower cost than that HDTV you just bought, this would make life very interesting... - Jared
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jared Mauch wrote:
On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:57 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
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Jared Mauch wrote:
I think it's great!
I've been preparing to float a similar idea locally.
If this is how they use their market cap, I would love for them to do it in my local market, which does seem to hold a near-and-dear place in the heart of some google C* types.
- Jared
* Local details/breakdown: http://puck.nether.net/~jared/blog/?p=84 Awesome write up.
Has anyone in the NANOG community been approached by google? I mean presumably this would require a massive coordination effort with existing exchange points etc. Or is google going to simply build an entire long haul network as well? Perhaps combine this with the containers?
Thanks. I want to codify it to something more (average) human-readable before I socialize it in the local community.
Sure thing. Make sure to blog it up so folks can contribute feedback :)
This sort of investment could have some immediate payback, esp if you have local utility (water, power) buy-in.
Indeed. I was surprised to find how much utility fiber networks exist. I was in a meet me room in down town Los Angeles, and both So Cal Edison and DWP had a presence. I knew that DWP had a fiber network, but wasn't aware SoCal Edison did. Also the city of Burbank power company maintains a fiber network, which links all the studios together. Unfortunately you can't bring dark fiber into the major colo there (Qwest IIRC). However it's quite easy to link any facilities together, and this is heavily utilized by the studios (most of whom have several sites). The challenge I see is having the political will to undertake the project. Hah. Right. Especially with telcos being large campaign contributers. If you adjust rates up over the first few years until the principal is paid off, the payoff could happen in short-order and remain competitive. Mmhmm. And quite frankly, this wouldn't really be necessary if the telcos actually did last mile build outs of fiber at a decent pace. People are very willing to pay for this stuff. It's been proven time and time again. Otherwise the muni folks wouldn't have passed bond measures, started build out and been sued into oblivion by the telcos. That was treated as a last resort, after lack of action by the incumbents.
Deploying microcell/picocell technology would be easy and could save people like AT&T Mobility/Cingular part of their billions they look to pay for network upgrades.
Yep. They should become partners in these efforts and help guide the overall design/requirements etc. Jump in and discuss things like CoS/QoS/e911 etc etc etc. Not to mention considerable expertise in the construction of large scale networks. Alas they won't see it that way :) A large scale project here could possibly be done (on-poles) for as low as $44m, and possibly lower as economies of scale come in to play. Exactly. Especially if the various utility companies can realize the benefit. Smart grid etc. I have no problem with certain amounts of bandwidth being reserved for uses by city governments/ utility corporations who help shoulder the initial build out costs.
I'm hoping someone here reading from GOOG will suggest to any local Ann Arbor Alum (eg: Larry Page) that this would be a chump-change investment that would revolutionize telecommunication in the US.
It sure could. Far more attractive from a CAPex and OPex perspective.
I scaled my model up to Michigan-size (for fun) and came up with a cost somewhere around 1 Billion to run fiber down every public roadway. Taking the GOOG market cap of ~170Bln, and if I consider Michigan average (don't know, but please stick with me), this could be done for a small part of their market cap, and ROI could be at a reasonable speed. GE and 10GE optics that can do 70km are cheap, sometimes lower cost than that HDTV you just bought, this would make life very interesting...
Quite. :) - -- Charles N Wyble Linux Systems Engineer charles@knownelement.com http://www.knownelement.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAktzN/QACgkQJmrRtQ6zKE88iQCdG1u2RMSdXwFUZjnvxWUqV4JO PGEAn1T4QvtFhOQhUGlrUlBfuZrMpcfl =RGf/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi Jared You can now nominate your community http://www.google.com/appserve/fiberrfi/public/options Regards Abdul On 2/10/10 2:18 PM, "Jared Mauch" <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:57 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Jared Mauch wrote:
I think it's great!
I've been preparing to float a similar idea locally.
If this is how they use their market cap, I would love for them to do it in my local market, which does seem to hold a near-and-dear place in the heart of some google C* types.
- Jared
* Local details/breakdown: http://puck.nether.net/~jared/blog/?p=84
Awesome write up.
Has anyone in the NANOG community been approached by google? I mean presumably this would require a massive coordination effort with existing exchange points etc. Or is google going to simply build an entire long haul network as well? Perhaps combine this with the containers?
Thanks. I want to codify it to something more (average) human-readable before I socialize it in the local community.
This sort of investment could have some immediate payback, esp if you have local utility (water, power) buy-in. The challenge I see is having the political will to undertake the project. If you adjust rates up over the first few years until the principal is paid off, the payoff could happen in short-order and remain competitive.
Deploying microcell/picocell technology would be easy and could save people like AT&T Mobility/Cingular part of their billions they look to pay for network upgrades. A large scale project here could possibly be done (on-poles) for as low as $44m, and possibly lower as economies of scale come in to play.
I'm hoping someone here reading from GOOG will suggest to any local Ann Arbor Alum (eg: Larry Page) that this would be a chump-change investment that would revolutionize telecommunication in the US.
I scaled my model up to Michigan-size (for fun) and came up with a cost somewhere around 1 Billion to run fiber down every public roadway. Taking the GOOG market cap of ~170Bln, and if I consider Michigan average (don't know, but please stick with me), this could be done for a small part of their market cap, and ROI could be at a reasonable speed. GE and 10GE optics that can do 70km are cheap, sometimes lower cost than that HDTV you just bought, this would make life very interesting...
- Jared
I'm really interested in their distribution ideas, as well as the bottleneck from the Google network to the rest of the internet. Ah, who am I kidding, it's not like anyone cares about the rest of the internet, right? --Matt On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com> wrote:
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http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-10/google-plans-to-build-high-speed... http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h...
What do folks think?
Granted it's very early on, and g00g could decide to never leave the announce phase.
- -- Charles N Wyble Linux Systems Engineer (818)280-7059 charles@knownelement.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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-- LITTLE GIRL: But which cookie will you eat FIRST? COOKIE MONSTER: Me think you have misconception of cookie-eating process.
On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Matt Simmons wrote:
I'm really interested in their distribution ideas, as well as the bottleneck from the Google network to the rest of the internet.
Ah, who am I kidding, it's not like anyone cares about the rest of the internet, right?
The WSJ says: "In an interview, Google product manager Minnie Ingersoll said consumers will be able to buy service directly from Google or from other providers, whom Google will allow to resell the service. She said Google will manage the deployment of the network but probably partner with contractors to help build it." --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Steven Bellovin <smb@cs.columbia.edu> wrote:
On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Matt Simmons wrote:
I'm really interested in their distribution ideas, as well as the bottleneck from the Google network to the rest of the internet.
Ah, who am I kidding, it's not like anyone cares about the rest of the internet, right?
The WSJ says: "In an interview, Google product manager Minnie Ingersoll said consumers will be able to buy service directly from Google or from other providers, whom Google will allow to resell the service. She said Google will manage the deployment of the network but probably partner with contractors to help build it."
--Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
I honestly wonder if they will use ipv4 or ipv6 for their rollout... Could be interesting to watch!
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I honestly wonder if they will use ipv4 or ipv6 for their rollout... Could be interesting to watch!
Hopefully both. This could be one of the first large scale, dual stacked offerings to end users. There is of course Comcast who recently announced a v6 beta, and impulse.net for folks in the SoCal region. Not sure of any other CLEC types offering v6, but if you are speak up! I guess the phrase innovate/catch up or get run over applies here. :) - -- Charles N Wyble Linux Systems Engineer charles@knownelement.com http://www.knownelement.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAktzOV8ACgkQJmrRtQ6zKE8NkgCgv+9788FreA9dVD9dyoVWWgb7 D5IAoKvjukIOI0NV68+YndpSJ0ItFIwr =vgqD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, Charles N Wyble wrote:
announced a v6 beta, and impulse.net for folks in the SoCal region. Not sure of any other CLEC types offering v6, but if you are speak up!
I suspect you're more likely to find regional ISPs offering v6 than CLECs. The latter seem driven by the sale of circuits and bandwidth, not necessarilly in the efficient or innovative use of those circuits and bandwidth.
I guess the phrase innovate/catch up or get run over applies here. :)
Yep. Antonio Querubin 808-545-5282 x3003 e-mail/xmpp: tony@lava.net
Maybe they're getting their Ideas from the Irish :). Magnet (www.magnet.ie) does a similar thing which started over four years ago. They offer fiber to the home and you can use it for triple-play. I believe when they started the offering, the bandwidth was (initially intended to be) limited only by the end user's equipment and they would "pay as you go" but it appears now as though they have set the limit to 50 Mbps. There's nothing stopping Google from offering Triple-play with extremely cheap long-distance calls, Internet, and HDTV. That kind of bandwidth could easily be utilised, but what next? Google Thin clients? Very exciting! Regards, Ken On 10 February 2010 14:30, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-10/google-plans-to-build-high-speed...
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h...
What do folks think?
Granted it's very early on, and g00g could decide to never leave the announce phase.
- -- Charles N Wyble Linux Systems Engineer (818)280-7059 charles@knownelement.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iEYEARECAAYFAktzF2sACgkQJmrRtQ6zKE91lwCgjdYmEewZtPb2iFM6VZMW5Xce ydkAoI+ycZQ1JYLoZt7yL04CliGXRLoc =4eps -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, Charles N Wyble wrote:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-10/google-plans-to-build-high-speed... http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h...
What do folks think?
Wonderful move - might breath life back into the small ISP market. I hope it's a fully multicast-enabled network too. Antonio Querubin 808-545-5282 x3003 e-mail/xmpp: tony@lava.net
Are they going to use Google routers for the deployment? On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-10/google-plans-to-build-high-speed... http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/think-big-with-gig-our-experimental.h...
What do folks think?
Granted it's very early on, and g00g could decide to never leave the announce phase.
- -- Charles N Wyble Linux Systems Engineer (818)280-7059 charles@knownelement.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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There are some FTTH deployments in the US, like the well known FIOS to a number of lesser known municipal deployments in small towns. If you want to live in a house that is served in this way, how do you find it. I don't believe there is a "FTTH" field in MLS yet. Would be nice to have a google maps mashup, or similar... -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
They don't have a field in the MLS for that, but most people put the description FTTH in. There are quite a few communities with FTTH in the Wash DC metropolitan area that is not FIOS. Openband is one of them serving my house. The 100M fiber comes into a transition network converter and then to a Netgear. I doubt that any house would have FTTR (rooms). --------------------------------- Luan Nguyen Chesapeake NetCraftsmen, LLC. ---------------------------------
I have gig copper ran all over my house. Handy for large file transfers. I have fios as well, and wish it was faster. (yes, all I know is it's a setting, it costs them nothing more) -- Joel Esler 302-223-5974 Sent from my iPhone On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:02 PM, "Luan Nguyen" <luan@netcraftsmen.net> wrote:
They don't have a field in the MLS for that, but most people put the description FTTH in. There are quite a few communities with FTTH in the Wash DC metropolitan area that is not FIOS. Openband is one of them serving my house. The 100M fiber comes into a transition network converter and then to a Netgear. I doubt that any house would have FTTR (rooms).
--------------------------------- Luan Nguyen Chesapeake NetCraftsmen, LLC. ---------------------------------
What do folks think?
I think it's a better use of their capital resources than paying big fat bonuses to big fat executives. Sounds like a well funded initiative that may provide an interesting platform to explore new technologies and develop a new array of applications. It would be nice to hear from local folks about how the WiFi experiment in Mountain View worked out. My .02 Jorge
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Jorge Amodio <jmamodio@gmail.com> wrote:
It would be nice to hear from local folks about how the WiFi experiment in Mountain View worked out.
i use the mtview wifi almost everyday, and it works great the last metrics i saw were presented by tropos and indicated that about 600gb was transfered daily over the network (and this was sometime last summer iirc) -ck
This is actually good new's, considering this line of thought began to look promising in 2000, other unmentioned providers have business models not inclusive of this for another 10 years. I think this at least shows American private industry that we are at least attempting to catch up with Europe and China who already have very high speed networks in the most brutal of environments, I think all local governents should apply. -henry ________________________________ From: Jorge Amodio <jmamodio@gmail.com> To: Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com> Cc: Nanog <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 6:39:14 PM Subject: Re: Google to offer fiber to end users
What do folks think?
I think it's a better use of their capital resources than paying big fat bonuses to big fat executives. Sounds like a well funded initiative that may provide an interesting platform to explore new technologies and develop a new array of applications. It would be nice to hear from local folks about how the WiFi experiment in Mountain View worked out. My .02 Jorge
participants (17)
-
Abdulkadir Egal -
Antonio Querubin -
Brandon Galbraith -
Charles N Wyble -
ck -
Henry Linneweh -
Jared Mauch -
Joel Esler -
Jorge Amodio -
Ken Gilmour -
Leo Bicknell -
Luan Nguyen -
Matt Simmons -
Ramanpreet Singh -
Ronald Cotoni -
Seth Mattinen -
Steven Bellovin