Network visibility
Hi there, I'm interested in what you good folks do in terms of network visibility. My interests are around Service Provider space - visibility for IPoE, PPPoE, TCP(User Experience). I use a product called "VoIPmonitor" for all things VoIP - and it is one of my favourite tools. It is a web gui for sip/rtp/etc. Is there a similar tool in the Ethernet(L2)/IP(L3) space? Are operators using tcpdump/wireshark for this - or is there a voipmonitor-esque tool out there? Cheers, Nathaniel
On 10/20/21 11:55, Nat Fogarty wrote:
Hi there,
I'm interested in what you good folks do in terms of network visibility.
My interests are around Service Provider space - visibility for IPoE, PPPoE, TCP(User Experience).
I use a product called "VoIPmonitor" for all things VoIP - and it is one of my favourite tools. It is a web gui for sip/rtp/etc.
Is there a similar tool in the Ethernet(L2)/IP(L3) space?
Are operators using tcpdump/wireshark for this - or is there a voipmonitor-esque tool out there?
It's 2021, and more than 40 years of the Internet, we still can't walk into a shop and buy an NMS that just works :-). Oddly, I was searching for a good system to manage subscriber management on our end (Broadband), and we eventually landed on Splynx. So not sure if you want to see things on the wire (Layer 1 - 4), or if you are interested in pretty pictures... At any rate, you may very well need more than one system to monitor your entire network. Mark.
Mark, As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other. It’s 2021, hence the Internet is less than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :) -mel On Oct 20, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa<mailto:mark@tinka.africa>> wrote: On 10/20/21 11:55, Nat Fogarty wrote: Hi there, I'm interested in what you good folks do in terms of network visibility. My interests are around Service Provider space - visibility for IPoE, PPPoE, TCP(User Experience). I use a product called "VoIPmonitor" for all things VoIP - and it is one of my favourite tools. It is a web gui for sip/rtp/etc. Is there a similar tool in the Ethernet(L2)/IP(L3) space? Are operators using tcpdump/wireshark for this - or is there a voipmonitor-esque tool out there? It's 2021, and more than 40 years of the Internet, we still can't walk into a shop and buy an NMS that just works :-). Oddly, I was searching for a good system to manage subscriber management on our end (Broadband), and we eventually landed on Splynx. So not sure if you want to see things on the wire (Layer 1 - 4), or if you are interested in pretty pictures... At any rate, you may very well need more than one system to monitor your entire network. Mark.
On 10/20/21 17:26, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other.
It’s 2021, hence the Internet is /less/ than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :)
Hehehe :-)... I guess we can reliably say that the ARPANET wasn't keen on pretty pictures, then, hehe :-)... Mark.
Mark, Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message. Even so, the Internet as a platform open to anyone didn’t start until 1992. I know you joined late, in 1999, so you probably missed out on this history. :) -mel On Oct 20, 2021, at 8:43 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa<mailto:mark@tinka.africa>> wrote: On 10/20/21 17:26, Mel Beckman wrote: Mark, As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other. It’s 2021, hence the Internet is less than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :) Hehehe :-)... I guess we can reliably say that the ARPANET wasn't keen on pretty pictures, then, hehe :-)... Mark.
On 10/20/21 18:08, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
I do know all of this, mate... I was just being dramatically facetious from my first response to the OP. My point being that considering how long TCP/IP has been around, the best monitoring we have gotten, even today, doesn't work out-of-the-box. So a single solution is likely impractical, even with the best of intentions, and none of the massaging.
Even so, the Internet as a platform open to anyone didn’t start until 1992. I know you joined late, in 1999, so you probably missed out on this history. :)
1995, actually. But that's not important... Mark.
I’ve used many commercial NMS platforms. I’ve yet to find one that doesn’t work “out of the box”. Unless by “out of the box” you mean “clairvoyantly configured”. Please identify the ones you think fail your test. -mel via cell
On Oct 20, 2021, at 9:18 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
On 10/20/21 18:08, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
I do know all of this, mate... I was just being dramatically facetious from my first response to the OP.
My point being that considering how long TCP/IP has been around, the best monitoring we have gotten, even today, doesn't work out-of-the-box. So a single solution is likely impractical, even with the best of intentions, and none of the massaging.
Even so, the Internet as a platform open to anyone didn’t start until 1992. I know you joined late, in 1999, so you probably missed out on this history. :)
1995, actually. But that's not important...
Mark.
On 10/20/21 18:38, Mel Beckman wrote:
I’ve used many commercial NMS platforms. I’ve yet to find one that doesn’t work “out of the box”. Unless by “out of the box” you mean “clairvoyantly configured”.
Please identify the ones you think fail your test.
Have you always used an NMS that you've never had to have the vendor (or community) tweak in a manner that was mostly unique to your operation? If not, you're a very lucky man... Mark.
Mark, I haven’t. With SNMP and other standards, and most NMS’ having extensible interfaces, such tinkaing is rare. It certainly doesn’t rise to the level of “never works out of the box.” -mel
On Oct 20, 2021, at 10:06 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
On 10/20/21 18:38, Mel Beckman wrote:
I’ve used many commercial NMS platforms. I’ve yet to find one that doesn’t work “out of the box”. Unless by “out of the box” you mean “clairvoyantly configured”.
Please identify the ones you think fail your test.
Have you always used an NMS that you've never had to have the vendor (or community) tweak in a manner that was mostly unique to your operation?
If not, you're a very lucky man...
Mark.
On October 20, 2021 at 16:08 mel@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
Then again there were IMPs fitted to various systems like TOPS-10, ITS, Vax/BSD Unix, IBM370, etc. So was that really all that different from ethernet vs, oh, wi-fi or fiber today, you needed an adapter?
Even so, the Internet as a platform open to anyone didn’t start until 1992. I know you joined late, in 1999, so you probably missed out on this history. :)
Well, we certainly tried in 1989 :-) We had customers from all over The World, um, the big round one you see when you look down.
-mel
On Oct 20, 2021, at 8:43 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
On 10/20/21 17:26, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other.
It’s 2021, hence the Internet is less than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :)
Hehehe :-)...
I guess we can reliably say that the ARPANET wasn't keen on pretty pictures, then, hehe :-)...
Mark.
-- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
For several years we had UCSB’s IMP control panel hanging in our office as a wall decoration (it belonged to Larry Green, one of the UCSB IMPlementors). I still have the manuals. The actual IMP with 56Kbps modem was in a huge rack with lifting eyes for a fork lift, and weighed about 500 lbs. Every IMP had a unique customized host interface, which packetized bit-serial data from the host over the host’s usually proprietary I/O bus. While this was part of computers internetworking with each other, it was not the capital-I Internet. -mel
On Oct 20, 2021, at 2:20 PM, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
On October 20, 2021 at 16:08 mel@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote: Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
Then again there were IMPs fitted to various systems like TOPS-10, ITS, Vax/BSD Unix, IBM370, etc.
So was that really all that different from ethernet vs, oh, wi-fi or fiber today, you needed an adapter?
Even so, the Internet as a platform open to anyone didn’t start until 1992. I know you joined late, in 1999, so you probably missed out on this history. :)
Well, we certainly tried in 1989 :-) We had customers from all over The World, um, the big round one you see when you look down.
-mel
On Oct 20, 2021, at 8:43 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
On 10/20/21 17:26, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other.
It’s 2021, hence the Internet is less than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :)
Hehehe :-)...
I guess we can reliably say that the ARPANET wasn't keen on pretty pictures, then, hehe :-)...
Mark.
-- -Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
On Oct 20, 2021, at 4:59 PM, Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
For several years we had UCSB’s IMP control panel hanging in our office as a wall decoration (it belonged to Larry Green, one of the UCSB IMPlementors). I still have the manuals. The actual IMP with 56Kbps modem was in a huge rack with lifting eyes for a fork lift, and weighed about 500 lbs. Every IMP had a unique customized host interface, which packetized bit-serial data from the host over the host’s usually proprietary I/O bus.
I know of at least one actual hardware PDP-10 (Not PDP-11) that is still connected to the public internet. Mine will be if/when I ever get it working.
On Oct 20, 2021, at 14:19 , bzs@theworld.com wrote:
On October 20, 2021 at 16:08 mel@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
I think you mean before 1982. TCP/IP was deployed starting in 1982. NCP was deprecated (removed from the ARPANET) January 1, 1983, but TCP/IP was implemented (and deployed) prior to that.
Then again there were IMPs fitted to various systems like TOPS-10, ITS, Vax/BSD Unix, IBM370, etc.
So was that really all that different from ethernet vs, oh, wi-fi or fiber today, you needed an adapter?
It really wasn’t, but even if you just want to count from TCP/IP forward, 1983 isn’t the correct date. 1983 was when we turned off NCP. It wasn’t when we turned on TCP/IP. The turn on of TCP/IP occurred over several months, so there’s no particular date that can be assigned to it. Owen
How old are all you people? 😊 (JK) -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bkain1=ford.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Owen DeLong via NANOG Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 11:43 AM To: bzs@theworld.com Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network visibility WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding.
On Oct 20, 2021, at 14:19 , bzs@theworld.com wrote:
On October 20, 2021 at 16:08 mel@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
I think you mean before 1982. TCP/IP was deployed starting in 1982. NCP was deprecated (removed from the ARPANET) January 1, 1983, but TCP/IP was implemented (and deployed) prior to that.
Then again there were IMPs fitted to various systems like TOPS-10, ITS, Vax/BSD Unix, IBM370, etc.
So was that really all that different from ethernet vs, oh, wi-fi or fiber today, you needed an adapter?
It really wasn’t, but even if you just want to count from TCP/IP forward, 1983 isn’t the correct date. 1983 was when we turned off NCP. It wasn’t when we turned on TCP/IP. The turn on of TCP/IP occurred over several months, so there’s no particular date that can be assigned to it. Owen
Becki, I was on ARPANET through the USDA in the 1980s. So, not that old :) -mel
On Oct 21, 2021, at 9:04 AM, Kain, Becki (.) <bkain1@ford.com> wrote:
How old are all you people?
😊
(JK)
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bkain1=ford.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Owen DeLong via NANOG Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 11:43 AM To: bzs@theworld.com Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network visibility
WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding.
On Oct 20, 2021, at 14:19 , bzs@theworld.com wrote:
On October 20, 2021 at 16:08 mel@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
I think you mean before 1982.
TCP/IP was deployed starting in 1982. NCP was deprecated (removed from the ARPANET) January 1, 1983, but TCP/IP was implemented (and deployed) prior to that.
Then again there were IMPs fitted to various systems like TOPS-10, ITS, Vax/BSD Unix, IBM370, etc.
So was that really all that different from ethernet vs, oh, wi-fi or fiber today, you needed an adapter?
It really wasn’t, but even if you just want to count from TCP/IP forward, 1983 isn’t the correct date. 1983 was when we turned off NCP. It wasn’t when we turned on TCP/IP. The turn on of TCP/IP occurred over several months, so there’s no particular date that can be assigned to it.
Owen
I'm just kidding. I wasn't on until 1990 when I was teaching IBM 370 assembler -----Original Message----- From: Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 12:12 PM To: Kain, Becki (.) <bkain1@ford.com> Cc: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>; bzs@theworld.com; nanog <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Network visibility Becki, I was on ARPANET through the USDA in the 1980s. So, not that old :) -mel
On Oct 21, 2021, at 9:04 AM, Kain, Becki (.) <bkain1@ford.com> wrote:
How old are all you people?
😊
(JK)
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bkain1=ford.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Owen DeLong via NANOG Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 11:43 AM To: bzs@theworld.com Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network visibility
WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding.
On Oct 20, 2021, at 14:19 , bzs@theworld.com wrote:
On October 20, 2021 at 16:08 mel@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
I think you mean before 1982.
TCP/IP was deployed starting in 1982. NCP was deprecated (removed from the ARPANET) January 1, 1983, but TCP/IP was implemented (and deployed) prior to that.
Then again there were IMPs fitted to various systems like TOPS-10, ITS, Vax/BSD Unix, IBM370, etc.
So was that really all that different from ethernet vs, oh, wi-fi or fiber today, you needed an adapter?
It really wasn’t, but even if you just want to count from TCP/IP forward, 1983 isn’t the correct date. 1983 was when we turned off NCP. It wasn’t when we turned on TCP/IP. The turn on of TCP/IP occurred over several months, so there’s no particular date that can be assigned to it.
Owen
One of my favorite classes ever. G
On Oct 21, 2021, at 11:15, Kain, Becki (.) <bkain1@ford.com> wrote:
I'm just kidding. I wasn't on until 1990 when I was teaching IBM 370 assembler
-----Original Message----- From: Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 12:12 PM To: Kain, Becki (.) <bkain1@ford.com> Cc: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>; bzs@theworld.com; nanog <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Network visibility
Becki,
I was on ARPANET through the USDA in the 1980s. So, not that old :)
-mel
On Oct 21, 2021, at 9:04 AM, Kain, Becki (.) <bkain1@ford.com> wrote:
How old are all you people?
😊
(JK)
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bkain1=ford.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Owen DeLong via NANOG Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 11:43 AM To: bzs@theworld.com Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network visibility
WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding.
On Oct 20, 2021, at 14:19 , bzs@theworld.com wrote:
On October 20, 2021 at 16:08 mel@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
I think you mean before 1982.
TCP/IP was deployed starting in 1982. NCP was deprecated (removed from the ARPANET) January 1, 1983, but TCP/IP was implemented (and deployed) prior to that.
Then again there were IMPs fitted to various systems like TOPS-10, ITS, Vax/BSD Unix, IBM370, etc.
So was that really all that different from ethernet vs, oh, wi-fi or fiber today, you needed an adapter?
It really wasn’t, but even if you just want to count from TCP/IP forward, 1983 isn’t the correct date. 1983 was when we turned off NCP. It wasn’t when we turned on TCP/IP. The turn on of TCP/IP occurred over several months, so there’s no particular date that can be assigned to it.
Owen
On October 21, 2021 at 16:13 bkain1@ford.com (Kain, Becki (.)) wrote:
I'm just kidding. I wasn't on until 1990 when I was teaching IBM 370 assembler
I taught IBM 370 ASM for several years at BU, I can probably still explain what a CSECT is, never know when it might come up like right now. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
Me... 67. I arrived as an MIT Freshman, about a month before Ray Tomlinson sent the first ARPANET email (1971), and then about 15 years later had an office next to him at BBN. I was at BBN when the guy in the next office pulled the plug on the ARPANET. (And... just because the topic of network management systems started this whole thing, my name is on the Architecture document for DDN Network Management.) Barry Shein (bzs) was the guy who finally pushed NSF into allowing commercial traffic (he was running "The World" - the first service to provide public access to the backbone). Miles Fidelman Kain, Becki (.) wrote:
How old are all you people?
😊
(JK)
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bkain1=ford.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Owen DeLong via NANOG Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 11:43 AM To: bzs@theworld.com Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network visibility
WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding.
On Oct 20, 2021, at 14:19 , bzs@theworld.com wrote:
On October 20, 2021 at 16:08 mel@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message. I think you mean before 1982.
TCP/IP was deployed starting in 1982. NCP was deprecated (removed from the ARPANET) January 1, 1983, but TCP/IP was implemented (and deployed) prior to that.
Then again there were IMPs fitted to various systems like TOPS-10, ITS, Vax/BSD Unix, IBM370, etc.
So was that really all that different from ethernet vs, oh, wi-fi or fiber today, you needed an adapter? It really wasn’t, but even if you just want to count from TCP/IP forward, 1983 isn’t the correct date. 1983 was when we turned off NCP. It wasn’t when we turned on TCP/IP. The turn on of TCP/IP occurred over several months, so there’s no particular date that can be assigned to it.
Owen
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
On October 21, 2021 at 16:04 bkain1@ford.com (Kain, Becki (.)) wrote:
How old are all you people?
My first experience with the ARPAnet was either 1977 or 1978 when someone got me an ITS account at MIT (BARRYS@AI), I was working at Harvard. Tho I didn't really have much use for the net other than joining some mailing lists I'd play with it. It was astounding to me. With a few keystrokes I could get to a login prompt at Stanford or in London etc. I was on the night the pentagon shut it down briefly (several broadcast messages messing up my screen, I thought it was a prank, then dead) because some students had just taken some US hostages in Tehran. It wasn't on the news yet. They (pentagon) were testing their ability to take it all under their control for some reason tho I think the word "war" was on their minds. That was 1979-11-04. So, pretty old. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
On Oct 20, 2021, at 08:26 , Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Mark,
As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other.
January 1, 1983 is actually not that… TCP/IP was running in many locations prior to that date. January 1, 1983 was the day that support for the NCP based internet prior to TCP/IP implementation ended. Further, NCP had actually allowed different kinds of computers on different networks to talk to each other, as had UUCP.
It’s 2021, hence the Internet is less than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :)
No, not really. The Internet is older than the death of NCP, which is the day you are referring to as the birthday of the internet. Owen
-mel
On Oct 20, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa <mailto:mark@tinka.africa>> wrote:
On 10/20/21 11:55, Nat Fogarty wrote:
Hi there,
I'm interested in what you good folks do in terms of network visibility.
My interests are around Service Provider space - visibility for IPoE, PPPoE, TCP(User Experience).
I use a product called "VoIPmonitor" for all things VoIP - and it is one of my favourite tools. It is a web gui for sip/rtp/etc.
Is there a similar tool in the Ethernet(L2)/IP(L3) space?
Are operators using tcpdump/wireshark for this - or is there a voipmonitor-esque tool out there?
It's 2021, and more than 40 years of the Internet, we still can't walk into a shop and buy an NMS that just works :-).
Oddly, I was searching for a good system to manage subscriber management on our end (Broadband), and we eventually landed on Splynx.
So not sure if you want to see things on the wire (Layer 1 - 4), or if you are interested in pretty pictures...
At any rate, you may very well need more than one system to monitor your entire network.
Mark.
Owen, LOL! Yeah, and in 1838 Samuel Morse’s telegraph system used electric impulses to transmit encoded messages over a wire to Speedwell Iron Works in Morristown, New Jersey. Was that the Internet? Sorry, not buying your supposed argument. People experimenting with TCP/IP doesn’t an Internet make. “January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet. " https://www.usg.edu/galileo/skills/unit07/internet07_02.phtml -mel On Oct 20, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com<mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote: On Oct 20, 2021, at 08:26 , Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org<mailto:mel@beckman.org>> wrote: Mark, As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other. January 1, 1983 is actually not that… TCP/IP was running in many locations prior to that date. January 1, 1983 was the day that support for the NCP based internet prior to TCP/IP implementation ended. Further, NCP had actually allowed different kinds of computers on different networks to talk to each other, as had UUCP. It’s 2021, hence the Internet is less than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :) No, not really. The Internet is older than the death of NCP, which is the day you are referring to as the birthday of the internet. Owen -mel On Oct 20, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa<mailto:mark@tinka.africa>> wrote: On 10/20/21 11:55, Nat Fogarty wrote: Hi there, I'm interested in what you good folks do in terms of network visibility. My interests are around Service Provider space - visibility for IPoE, PPPoE, TCP(User Experience). I use a product called "VoIPmonitor" for all things VoIP - and it is one of my favourite tools. It is a web gui for sip/rtp/etc. Is there a similar tool in the Ethernet(L2)/IP(L3) space? Are operators using tcpdump/wireshark for this - or is there a voipmonitor-esque tool out there? It's 2021, and more than 40 years of the Internet, we still can't walk into a shop and buy an NMS that just works :-). Oddly, I was searching for a good system to manage subscriber management on our end (Broadband), and we eventually landed on Splynx. So not sure if you want to see things on the wire (Layer 1 - 4), or if you are interested in pretty pictures... At any rate, you may very well need more than one system to monitor your entire network. Mark.
On 10/20/21 10:30, Mel Beckman wrote:
Owen,
LOL! Yeah, and in 1838 Samuel Morse’s telegraph system used electric impulses to transmit encoded messages over a wire to Speedwell Iron Works in Morristown, New Jersey. Was/ that /the Internet?
Nope. And it wasn't even the first digital encoding of text. Braille preceded it, and arguably semaphore. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
Jay Hennigan wrote:
On 10/20/21 10:30, Mel Beckman wrote:
Owen,
LOL! Yeah, and in 1838 Samuel Morse’s telegraph system used electric impulses to transmit encoded messages over a wire to Speedwell Iron Works in Morristown, New Jersey. Was/ that /the Internet?
Nope. And it wasn't even the first digital encoding of text. Braille preceded it, and arguably semaphore.
There's a wonderful book, "The Victorian Internet" - that talks about telegraphy, including optical telegraphy - and how the various telegraph networks were internetworked. When it came to message traffic, it really was a lot like the modern Internet. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:31 , Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
Jay Hennigan wrote:
On 10/20/21 10:30, Mel Beckman wrote:
Owen,
LOL! Yeah, and in 1838 Samuel Morse’s telegraph system used electric impulses to transmit encoded messages over a wire to Speedwell Iron Works in Morristown, New Jersey. Was/ that /the Internet?
No, but you are ignoring the point of my message… The TCP/IP internet existed _BEFORE_ the flag day you mentioned. The flag day was the end of NCP, not the beginning of TCP/IP. IIRC, at the time, it was IP version 2, but IP versions 2, 3, and 4 came in relatively rapid succession of each other and 4 was the first version with (relatively) clean layer separation between 2, 3, and 4. According to https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2016/09/final-report-on-tcpip-migration... , TCP/IP was developed starting in 1975 and declared the official future standard of the ARPANET in March, 1982, with a transition plan supporting both protocols (NCP and TCP/IP) until January 1, 1983. January 1, 1983 is more analogous to the future happy day we finally turn off IPv4 at the majority of peering points and PNIs than it is to the past days when IPv6 began being deployed. True, the initial deployment of TCP/IP and the flag day were much closer together for the implementation of IPv4 and deprecation of NCP than has been the case for IPv6 deployment and IPv4 deprecation, but nonetheless, it is still true that there were at least several months of TCP/IP deployment, testing, and use at multiple sites and on multiple systems prior to the deprecation of NCP on January 1, 1983.
Nope. And it wasn't even the first digital encoding of text. Braille preceded it, and arguably semaphore.
There's a wonderful book, "The Victorian Internet" - that talks about telegraphy, including optical telegraphy - and how the various telegraph networks were internetworked.
When it came to message traffic, it really was a lot like the modern Internet.
Miles Fidelman
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
On Oct 21, 2021, at 8:19 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com<mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote: No, but you are ignoring the point of my message… The TCP/IP internet existed _BEFORE_ the flag day you mentioned. The flag day was the end of NCP, not the beginning of TCP/IP. IIRC, at the time, Owen, But we’re not talking about the birth of TCP/IP. We’re talking about the birth of the capital-I Internet, which by definition runs exclusively on TCP/IP, and that didn’t start until Jan 1, 1983. Although there was experimentation using IP during 1982, that was still ARPANET. It was the guaranteed exclusive availability of IP that made 1983 the Internet’s birth date. And no, it’s not analogous to the eventual IPv6 transition, because both IPv5 and IPv4 are Capital-I Internet standard protocols. -mel it was IP version 2, but IP versions 2, 3, and 4 came in relatively rapid succession of each other and 4 was the first version with (relatively) clean layer separation between 2, 3, and 4. According to https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2016/09/final-report-on-tcpip-migration... , TCP/IP was developed starting in 1975 and declared the official future standard of the ARPANET in March, 1982, with a transition plan supporting both protocols (NCP and TCP/IP) until January 1, 1983. January 1, 1983 is more analogous to the future happy day we finally turn off IPv4 at the majority of peering points and PNIs than it is to the past days when IPv6 began being deployed. True, the initial deployment of TCP/IP and the flag day were much closer together for the implementation of IPv4 and deprecation of NCP than has been the case for IPv6 deployment and IPv4 deprecation, but nonetheless, it is still true that there were at least several months of TCP/IP deployment, testing, and use at multiple sites and on multiple systems prior to the deprecation of NCP on January 1, 1983.
On Oct 21, 2021, at 08:55 , Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
On Oct 21, 2021, at 8:19 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com <mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote:
No, but you are ignoring the point of my message…
The TCP/IP internet existed _BEFORE_ the flag day you mentioned. The flag day was the end of NCP, not the beginning of TCP/IP. IIRC, at the time,
Owen,
But we’re not talking about the birth of TCP/IP. We’re talking about the birth of the capital-I Internet, which by definition runs exclusively on TCP/IP, and that didn’t start until Jan 1, 1983. Although there was experimentation using IP during 1982, that was still ARPANET. It was the guaranteed exclusive availability of IP that made 1983 the Internet’s birth date.
IMHO, that’s an absurd definition. It was still ARPANET after January 1, 1983 too. Prior to 1982, it was ARPANET on NCP. During 1982, it was ARPANET running on NCP+TCP/IP, much like the Internet runs dual stack today on IPv4 and IPv6. In 1983, NCP was removed from most of the backbone, as I hope will happen with IPv4 in the next few years.
And no, it’s not analogous to the eventual IPv6 transition, because both IPv5 and IPv4 are Capital-I Internet standard protocols.
You’re picking arbitrary definitions of Capital-I Internet standards. NCP was every bit as standardized as TCP/IP in 1982. Both were documented in the same IEN series of documents. IEN later (well after TCP/IP) evoked to become RFC. Don’t believe me? Look at the hosts.txt file from IPv4 days which still referenced IEN116. Owen
Guys, You guys were in grade school, some of us were there at the beginning (well, in my case, 2 years after the beginning). I can assure you that folks made a big deal about what was and wasn't the Internet, and the distinction between "an internet" and "the (capital I) Internet." Opinions varied then, and opinions vary now. But... by and large, as I understand the general zeitgeist: - you're either on the Internet, or you're not - the key question is whether you can send & receive IP packets from the public address space (i.e., the classified segments are internets, but not part of THE Internet). There are also disagreements on where the Internet ends - at the demarc, or at the IP stack in your machine (I argue the latter, but that's debatable) - as to when the Internet was born... that's also debatable. The ARPANET started passing it's first packets in Sept. 1969 - that's a known point in time. One could probably find the date when the first IP packet crossed transited a router between two networks. Beyond that, the Flag Day is about as good a date as any - before that there it all was a gaggle of networks, some routers (then called gateways), supporting various internetworking protocols, including IP. But the Flag Day made it all official - except for a few special exceptions, that marks the date that every machine on the net was reachable by IP, and NOT by NCP. So... how about dropping all the pontification. It just makes you look silly. Miles Fidelman Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote:
On Oct 21, 2021, at 08:55 , Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org <mailto:mel@beckman.org>> wrote:
On Oct 21, 2021, at 8:19 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com <mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote:
No, but you are ignoring the point of my message…
The TCP/IP internet existed _BEFORE_ the flag day you mentioned. The flag day was the end of NCP, not the beginning of TCP/IP. IIRC, at the time,
Owen, But we’re not talking about the birth of TCP/IP. We’re talking about the birth of the capital-I Internet, which by definition runs exclusively on TCP/IP, and that didn’t start until Jan 1, 1983. Although there was /experimentation /using IP during 1982, that was still ARPANET. It was the /guaranteed exclusive /availability of IP that made 1983 the Internet’s birth date.
IMHO, that’s an absurd definition. It was still ARPANET after January 1, 1983 too. Prior to 1982, it was ARPANET on NCP. During 1982, it was ARPANET running on NCP+TCP/IP, much like the Internet runs dual stack today on IPv4 and IPv6.
In 1983, NCP was removed from most of the backbone, as I hope will happen with IPv4 in the next few years.
And no, it’s not analogous to the eventual IPv6 transition, because both IPv5 and IPv4 are Capital-I Internet standard protocols.
You’re picking arbitrary definitions of Capital-I Internet standards. NCP was every bit as standardized as TCP/IP in 1982.
Both were documented in the same IEN series of documents.
IEN later (well after TCP/IP) evoked to become RFC.
Don’t believe me? Look at the hosts.txt file from IPv4 days which still referenced IEN116.
Owen
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
Miles, Silly schmilly. These are important matters of great import, and thus it’s important someone has the final say. And since you agree with me, I’m happy for that to be you :) -mel On Oct 21, 2021, at 11:16 AM, Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net<mailto:mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>> wrote: Guys, You guys were in grade school, some of us were there at the beginning (well, in my case, 2 years after the beginning). I can assure you that folks made a big deal about what was and wasn't the Internet, and the distinction between "an internet" and "the (capital I) Internet." Opinions varied then, and opinions vary now. But... by and large, as I understand the general zeitgeist: - you're either on the Internet, or you're not - the key question is whether you can send & receive IP packets from the public address space (i.e., the classified segments are internets, but not part of THE Internet). There are also disagreements on where the Internet ends - at the demarc, or at the IP stack in your machine (I argue the latter, but that's debatable) - as to when the Internet was born... that's also debatable. The ARPANET started passing it's first packets in Sept. 1969 - that's a known point in time. One could probably find the date when the first IP packet crossed transited a router between two networks. Beyond that, the Flag Day is about as good a date as any - before that there it all was a gaggle of networks, some routers (then called gateways), supporting various internetworking protocols, including IP. But the Flag Day made it all official - except for a few special exceptions, that marks the date that every machine on the net was reachable by IP, and NOT by NCP. So... how about dropping all the pontification. It just makes you look silly. Miles Fidelman Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote: On Oct 21, 2021, at 08:55 , Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org<mailto:mel@beckman.org>> wrote: On Oct 21, 2021, at 8:19 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com<mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote: No, but you are ignoring the point of my message… The TCP/IP internet existed _BEFORE_ the flag day you mentioned. The flag day was the end of NCP, not the beginning of TCP/IP. IIRC, at the time, Owen, But we’re not talking about the birth of TCP/IP. We’re talking about the birth of the capital-I Internet, which by definition runs exclusively on TCP/IP, and that didn’t start until Jan 1, 1983. Although there was experimentation using IP during 1982, that was still ARPANET. It was the guaranteed exclusive availability of IP that made 1983 the Internet’s birth date. IMHO, that’s an absurd definition. It was still ARPANET after January 1, 1983 too. Prior to 1982, it was ARPANET on NCP. During 1982, it was ARPANET running on NCP+TCP/IP, much like the Internet runs dual stack today on IPv4 and IPv6. In 1983, NCP was removed from most of the backbone, as I hope will happen with IPv4 in the next few years. And no, it’s not analogous to the eventual IPv6 transition, because both IPv5 and IPv4 are Capital-I Internet standard protocols. You’re picking arbitrary definitions of Capital-I Internet standards. NCP was every bit as standardized as TCP/IP in 1982. Both were documented in the same IEN series of documents. IEN later (well after TCP/IP) evoked to become RFC. Don’t believe me? Look at the hosts.txt file from IPv4 days which still referenced IEN116. Owen -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
Guys,
You guys were in grade school, some of us were there at the beginning (well, in my case, 2 years after the beginning). I can assure you that folks made a big deal about what was and wasn't the Internet, and the distinction between "an internet" and "the (capital I) Internet." Opinions varied then, and opinions vary now.
But... by and large, as I understand the general zeitgeist:
- you're either on the Internet, or you're not - the key question is whether you can send & receive IP packets from the public address space (i.e., the classified segments are internets, but not part of THE Internet). There are also disagreements on where the Internet ends - at the demarc, or at the IP stack in your machine (I argue the latter, but that's debatable)
Seth Breidbart has the last word on this point, I think: The Internet is "the largest equivalence class in the reflexive, transitive, symmetric closure of the relationship 'can be reached by an IP packet from'." The associated press has, in the last year or two, disparaged the capitalization of the word Internet, proving they do not understand there's a difference. If they won't capitalize "my" name, I won't capitalize theirs. But I will capitalize Internet in all relevant uses. This is an *engineering definition*, it matters that you name the right object, and I am one of the people who will, in fact, die on this hill. The associated press can bite me. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
But I will capitalize Internet in all relevant uses.
This is an *engineering definition*, it matters that you name the right object, and I am one of the people who will, in fact, die on this hill.
You are not alone.
The associated press can bite me.
While I respect and appreciate the AP (ap?) in general, in this particular instance, I am with you. -- TTFN, patrick
On Oct 22, 2021, at 01:21, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote: ----- Original Message -----
From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
Guys,
You guys were in grade school, some of us were there at the beginning (well, in my case, 2 years after the beginning). I can assure you that folks made a big deal about what was and wasn't the Internet, and the distinction between "an internet" and "the (capital I) Internet." Opinions varied then, and opinions vary now.
But... by and large, as I understand the general zeitgeist:
- you're either on the Internet, or you're not - the key question is whether you can send & receive IP packets from the public address space (i.e., the classified segments are internets, but not part of THE Internet). There are also disagreements on where the Internet ends - at the demarc, or at the IP stack in your machine (I argue the latter, but that's debatable)
Seth Breidbart has the last word on this point, I think:
The Internet is "the largest equivalence class in the reflexive, transitive, symmetric closure of the relationship 'can be reached by an IP packet from'."
The associated press has, in the last year or two, disparaged the capitalization of the word Internet, proving they do not understand there's a difference.
If they won't capitalize "my" name, I won't capitalize theirs.
But I will capitalize Internet in all relevant uses.
This is an *engineering definition*, it matters that you name the right object, and I am one of the people who will, in fact, die on this hill.
The associated press can bite me.
Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Seth Breidbart has the last word on this point, I think:
The Internet is "the largest equivalence class in the reflexive, transitive, symmetric closure of the relationship 'can be reached by an IP packet from'."
<snip>
The associated press can bite me.
Nice!
Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
Just to throw in another curve ball what got many of us excited about the internet or Internet was that at the time there were several networking protocols in wide usage like SNA (IBM), DECNET (DEC), XNS (Xerox, ok not such wide usage), BITNET (mostly IBM systems, organization was volunteer, public, hundreds of mostly university data centers, or maybe several dozen I dunno but non-trivial), UUCP (ad hoc as all get out), CHAOSnet (run by three people :-), BerkNeT (maybe 2 people :-), Netware (basically commercial NFS with apps), and no doubt some others, plus several "time sharing" systems like Tymnet, Compuserve, MCI, etc. These were non-trivial in terms of $$$ and/or people using them, not always both. So one BIG PROMISE was that this [Ii]nternet would connect them all together at least marginally (e.g., email, maybe specially designed apps, but there'd be paths between them for bits.) One net to connect them all, one net to find them, one net to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them. Not much of that happened. Instead they all were TCP/IP roadkill which was probably a better result. I do remember the U. Wisconsin ARPAnet/BITNET gateway, big deal! At BU I hooked up our ARPAnet systems to the big IBM mainframe (probably a 3081 at the time) via that gateway. Which got me a visit from the computing center director yelling "ARE YOU REALLY SENDING BITS THROUGH WISCONSIN TO GET THEM 150 FEET DOWN THE HALL?!?!" To which I calmly replied: Never, ever, feel sorry for the wires. On October 21, 2021 at 15:55 mel@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote:
On Oct 21, 2021, at 8:19 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
No, but you are ignoring the point of my message…
The TCP/IP internet existed _BEFORE_ the flag day you mentioned. The flag day was the end of NCP, not the beginning of TCP/IP. IIRC, at the time,
Owen,
But we’re not talking about the birth of TCP/IP. We’re talking about the birth of the capital-I Internet, which by definition runs exclusively on TCP/IP, and that didn’t start until Jan 1, 1983. Although there was experimentation using IP during 1982, that was still ARPANET. It was the guaranteed exclusive availability of IP that made 1983 the Internet’s birth date.
And no, it’s not analogous to the eventual IPv6 transition, because both IPv5 and IPv4 are Capital-I Internet standard protocols.
-mel
it was IP version 2, but IP versions 2, 3, and 4 came in relatively rapid succession of each other and 4 was the first version with (relatively) clean layer separation between 2, 3, and 4.
According to https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2016/09/ final-report-on-tcpip-migration-in-1983/ , TCP/IP was developed starting in 1975 and declared the official future standard of the ARPANET in March, 1982, with a transition plan supporting both protocols (NCP and TCP/IP) until January 1, 1983.
January 1, 1983 is more analogous to the future happy day we finally turn off IPv4 at the majority of peering points and PNIs than it is to the past days when IPv6 began being deployed.
True, the initial deployment of TCP/IP and the flag day were much closer together for the implementation of IPv4 and deprecation of NCP than has been the case for IPv6 deployment and IPv4 deprecation, but nonetheless, it is still true that there were at least several months of TCP/IP deployment, testing, and use at multiple sites and on multiple systems prior to the deprecation of NCP on January 1, 1983.
-- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
On 10/20/21 8:26 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other.
It’s 2021, hence the Internet is /less/ than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :)
Pedantically, IP is 40 years old as of last month. What you're talking about is the flag day. People including myself were looking into internet protocols well before the flag day. Mike
Michael, “Looking into” isn’t “is” :) -mel On Oct 20, 2021, at 10:39 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote: On 10/20/21 8:26 AM, Mel Beckman wrote: Mark, As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other. It’s 2021, hence the Internet is less than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :) Pedantically, IP is 40 years old as of last month. What you're talking about is the flag day. People including myself were looking into internet protocols well before the flag day. Mike
Since we seem to be getting pedantic... There's "The (capital I) Internet" - which, most date to the flag day, and the "Public Internet" (the Internet after policies changed and allowed commercial & public use over the NSFnet backbone - in 1992f, as I recall). Then there's the more general notion of "internetworking" - of which there was a considerable amount of experimental work going on, in parallel with TCP/IP. And of (small i) "internets" - essentially any Catenet style network-of-networks. Miles Fidelman Mel Beckman wrote:
Michael,
“Looking into” isn’t “is” :)
-mel
On Oct 20, 2021, at 10:39 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 10/20/21 8:26 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other.
It’s 2021, hence the Internet is /less/ than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :)
Pedantically, IP is 40 years old as of last month. What you're talking about is the flag day. People including myself were looking into internet protocols well before the flag day.
Mike
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
Oh and I remember the day we first got mosaic and I thought “why would I need pictures on the internet?” 😊 From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+bkain1=ford.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Miles Fidelman Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 2:47 PM Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network visibility WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding. Since we seem to be getting pedantic... There's "The (capital I) Internet" - which, most date to the flag day, and the "Public Internet" (the Internet after policies changed and allowed commercial & public use over the NSFnet backbone - in 1992f, as I recall). Then there's the more general notion of "internetworking" - of which there was a considerable amount of experimental work going on, in parallel with TCP/IP. And of (small i) "internets" - essentially any Catenet style network-of-networks. Miles Fidelman Mel Beckman wrote: Michael, “Looking into” isn’t “is” :) -mel On Oct 20, 2021, at 10:39 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com><mailto:mike@mtcc.com> wrote: On 10/20/21 8:26 AM, Mel Beckman wrote: Mark, As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other. It’s 2021, hence the Internet is less than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :) Pedantically, IP is 40 years old as of last month. What you're talking about is the flag day. People including myself were looking into internet protocols well before the flag day. Mike -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
On 10/20/21 6:52 PM, Kain, Becki (.) wrote:
Oh and I remember the day we first got mosaic and I thought “why would I need pictures on the internet?”
------------------------------------------------------------------------- When Mosaic first got <table> I remember thinking what the heck do I do with that? scott
On 10/20/21 11:52, Kain, Becki (.) wrote:
Oh and I remember the day we first got mosaic and I thought “why would I need pictures on the internet?”
Couple that with the early search engines such as Lycos and WebCrawler and there's a story to tell. I was a volunteer at a local non-profit fledgling ISP way back in the day. Sparc 10, bank of Practical Peripherals modems, Portmaster 2e, blistering fast frame-relay T-1 to the net, typical state-of-the-art setup for its time. I was doing a lot of the early network stuff, and another guy was the system admin. He put together a quick personal page that included a picture of a potted plant. No real reason for it, he threw it together primarily so he could test the new Mosaic browser. Somewhat as a joke, he included an ALT tag on the photo of the plant, "This is not a picture of a naked woman." This was for the benefit of the majority of the visitors using Lynx. About a week later, the blistering fast T-1 line became quite saturated with visitors to his personal test page. Search engines picked up the keywords and people on the Internet did what people on the Internet are still doing today. ALT tag got changed pretty quickly. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
I think the issuing of rfc 791 was much more important than the flag day. ARPAnet was a tiny, tiny universe but there were a lot of people interested in networking at the time wondering what to do with our neat new DEUNA and DEQNA adapters. There was tons of interest in all of the various protocols coming out around then because nobody knew what was going to win, or whether there would be *a* winner at all. Being able to get a spec to write to was pretty novel at the time because all of the rest of them were proprietary so you had to reverse engineer them for the most part. It may be that alone that pushed IP along well before the public could hook up to the Internet. We had lots of customers asking for IP protocols in the mid to late 80's and I can guarantee you most weren't part of the Internet. They were using IP as the interoperating system glue on their own networks. Also: the flag day was pretty much an example of how not to do a transition. as in, let's not do that again. Mike, trying to remember when CMU shipped their first version of their IP stack for VMS On 10/20/21 11:47 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Since we seem to be getting pedantic...
There's "The (capital I) Internet" - which, most date to the flag day, and the "Public Internet" (the Internet after policies changed and allowed commercial & public use over the NSFnet backbone - in 1992f, as I recall).
Then there's the more general notion of "internetworking" - of which there was a considerable amount of experimental work going on, in parallel with TCP/IP. And of (small i) "internets" - essentially any Catenet style network-of-networks.
Miles Fidelman
Mel Beckman wrote:
Michael,
“Looking into” isn’t “is” :)
-mel
On Oct 20, 2021, at 10:39 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 10/20/21 8:26 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other.
It’s 2021, hence the Internet is /less/ than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :)
Pedantically, IP is 40 years old as of last month. What you're talking about is the flag day. People including myself were looking into internet protocols well before the flag day.
Mike
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
I don’t remember hearing about IP for VAX/VMS 2.4, but I was part of a group at Intel in 1981 looking at ARPAnet for moving designer tools and design files as an alternate to leased bandwidth from $TELCOs using DECnet and BiSync HASP. The costs of switching from 56 Kbps to ARPAnet’s 50 Kbps convinced us to wait. Clearly, private demand drove the subsequent transition as the TCP/IP stack became effectively free. I miss DECUS, but not DELNIs. - James R. Cutler - james.cutler@consultant.com GPG keys: hkps://hkps.pool.sks-keyservers.net cell 734-673-5462
On Oct 20, 2021, at 3:09 PM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
I think the issuing of rfc 791 was much more important than the flag day. ARPAnet was a tiny, tiny universe but there were a lot of people interested in networking at the time wondering what to do with our neat new DEUNA and DEQNA adapters. There was tons of interest in all of the various protocols coming out around then because nobody knew what was going to win, or whether there would be *a* winner at all. Being able to get a spec to write to was pretty novel at the time because all of the rest of them were proprietary so you had to reverse engineer them for the most part. It may be that alone that pushed IP along well before the public could hook up to the Internet. We had lots of customers asking for IP protocols in the mid to late 80's and I can guarantee you most weren't part of the Internet. They were using IP as the interoperating system glue on their own networks.
Also: the flag day was pretty much an example of how not to do a transition. as in, let's not do that again.
Mike, trying to remember when CMU shipped their first version of their IP stack for VMS
On 10/20/21 11:47 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Since we seem to be getting pedantic...
There's "The (capital I) Internet" - which, most date to the flag day, and the "Public Internet" (the Internet after policies changed and allowed commercial & public use over the NSFnet backbone - in 1992f, as I recall).
Then there's the more general notion of "internetworking" - of which there was a considerable amount of experimental work going on, in parallel with TCP/IP. And of (small i) "internets" - essentially any Catenet style network-of-networks.
Miles Fidelman
Mel Beckman wrote:
Michael,
“Looking into” isn’t “is” :)
-mel
On Oct 20, 2021, at 10:39 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> <mailto:mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 10/20/21 8:26 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other.
It’s 2021, hence the Internet is less than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :)
Pedantically, IP is 40 years old as of last month. What you're talking about is the flag day. People including myself were looking into internet protocols well before the flag day.
Mike
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
On 10/20/21 12:38 PM, james.cutler@consultant.com wrote:
I don’t remember hearing about IP for VAX/VMS 2.4, but I was part of a group at Intel in 1981 looking at ARPAnet for moving designer tools and design files as an alternate to leased bandwidth from $TELCOs using DECnet and BiSync HASP. The costs of switching from 56 Kbps to ARPAnet’s 50 Kbps convinced us to wait. Clearly, private demand drove the subsequent transition as the TCP/IP stack became effectively free.
I'm not sure how we heard and got a copy of the CMU IP stack, but it was probably Mark Reinhold who now owns Java. It was definitely after 1981 and definitely before 1985, probably somewhere in the middle. Just the fact that we could get such a thing was sort of remarkable in those early days, and especially for VMS which was, I won't say hostile, but had their own ideas. I don't know when early routing came about but DEC charged extra for routing for DECNet, so that was yet another reason IP was interesting is that it took little investment to check it all out.
I miss DECUS, but not DELNIs.
Yeah, I miss DECUS too. I remember one plenary when somebody asked when the VAX would support the full 4G address space to laughs and guffaws from panel. Mike
- James R. Cutler - james.cutler@consultant.com GPG keys: hkps://hkps.pool.sks-keyservers.net cell 734-673-5462
On Oct 20, 2021, at 3:09 PM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
I think the issuing of rfc 791 was much more important than the flag day. ARPAnet was a tiny, tiny universe but there were a lot of people interested in networking at the time wondering what to do with our neat new DEUNA and DEQNA adapters. There was tons of interest in all of the various protocols coming out around then because nobody knew what was going to win, or whether there would be *a* winner at all. Being able to get a spec to write to was pretty novel at the time because all of the rest of them were proprietary so you had to reverse engineer them for the most part. It may be that alone that pushed IP along well before the public could hook up to the Internet. We had lots of customers asking for IP protocols in the mid to late 80's and I can guarantee you most weren't part of the Internet. They were using IP as the interoperating system glue on their own networks.
Also: the flag day was pretty much an example of how not to do a transition. as in, let's not do that again.
Mike, trying to remember when CMU shipped their first version of their IP stack for VMS
On 10/20/21 11:47 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Since we seem to be getting pedantic...
There's "The (capital I) Internet" - which, most date to the flag day, and the "Public Internet" (the Internet after policies changed and allowed commercial & public use over the NSFnet backbone - in 1992f, as I recall).
Then there's the more general notion of "internetworking" - of which there was a considerable amount of experimental work going on, in parallel with TCP/IP. And of (small i) "internets" - essentially any Catenet style network-of-networks.
Miles Fidelman
Mel Beckman wrote:
Michael,
“Looking into” isn’t “is” :)
-mel
On Oct 20, 2021, at 10:39 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 10/20/21 8:26 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other.
It’s 2021, hence the Internet is /less/ than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathematical skills, I put no stock in your claim that we still can’t “buy an NMS that just works.” :)
Pedantically, IP is 40 years old as of last month. What you're talking about is the flag day. People including myself were looking into internet protocols well before the flag day.
Mike
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
On October 20, 2021 at 13:09 mike@mtcc.com (Michael Thomas) wrote:
Yeah, I miss DECUS too. I remember one plenary when somebody asked when the VAX would support the full 4G address space to laughs and guffaws from panel.
We had an 8MB Vax 11/780 at Harvard Chemistry ca 1982 (VMS) which involved a second double-wide cabinet. Groups on site visits to Harvard, I remember one bunch of physicists from Japan for example, would actually drop by to see it and ooh and ahh. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
On Oct 20, 2021, at 13:09 , Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 10/20/21 12:38 PM, james.cutler@consultant.com <mailto:james.cutler@consultant.com> wrote:
I miss DECUS, but not DELNIs.
I miss DECUS, too. Not only do I not miss DELNIs, I don’t miss any of the trappings of coaxial-based ethernet, including, but not limited to: AUI cables AUIs Vampire taps BNC T-Connectors BNC Terminators SO-239/PL-259 terminators TDRs that cost $10k+ Co-ax pinning Thin-net cables getting cut by furniture legs Following a long poorly documented thickness cable looking for the shorted vampire tap Does anyone miss any of these things? Twisted pair ethernet was probably the best thing to come to networking since TCP/IP. Owen
On Oct 20, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa <mailto:mark@tinka.africa>> wrote:
At any rate, you may very well need more than one system to monitor your entire network.
Mark.
Not the least of reasons for this: Redundancy. We have more than 1 tool doing every job, incase there’s a bug with something someday, or some platform reboots during a hurricane, etc. 2 is 1 and 1 is none and -48VDC power is still the best. Happy Birthday Internet <3 —L.B. Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC CEO lb@6by7.net <mailto:lb@6by7.net> "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the world.” FCC License KJ6FJJ
+1 on -48VDC.
On Oct 20, 2021, at 1:38 PM, Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE <lb@6by7.net> wrote:
On Oct 20, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa <mailto:mark@tinka.africa>> wrote:
At any rate, you may very well need more than one system to monitor your entire network.
Mark.
Not the least of reasons for this: Redundancy. We have more than 1 tool doing every job, incase there’s a bug with something someday, or some platform reboots during a hurricane, etc. 2 is 1 and 1 is none and -48VDC power is still the best.
Happy Birthday Internet <3
—L.B.
Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC CEO lb@6by7.net <mailto:lb@6by7.net> "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the world.” FCC License KJ6FJJ
On 10/21/21 03:19, Brian Johnson wrote:
+1 on -48VDC.
Wasn't much fun when half the router would shutdown because power supplies failed, due to what was known as "power zoning" those days. I haven't deployed a larger router on DC in over 13 years. I'm not sure if this is still a thing, even. Mark.
There is still zoning on some platforms, but there are now redundancies for the zones.
On Oct 21, 2021, at 12:22 AM, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
On 10/21/21 03:19, Brian Johnson wrote:
+1 on -48VDC.
Wasn't much fun when half the router would shutdown because power supplies failed, due to what was known as "power zoning" those days.
I haven't deployed a larger router on DC in over 13 years. I'm not sure if this is still a thing, even.
Mark.
participants (17)
-
Brian Johnson -
bzs＠theworld.com -
Daniel Seagraves -
Gerry Boudreaux -
james.cutler＠consultant.com -
Jay Hennigan -
Jay R. Ashworth -
Kain, Becki (.) -
Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE -
Mark Tinka -
Mel Beckman -
Michael Thomas -
Miles Fidelman -
Nat Fogarty -
Owen DeLong -
Patrick W. Gilmore -
scott