I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience? Thanks, Zaid
On 21 jul 2010, at 21:08, Zaid Ali wrote:
I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience?
I think the main question here would be, what they would charge for a change to a v4 session. Most likely they just decided that setting up the tunnel and configuring BGP takes time and since time is money they decided to charge for you. Seems like a reasonabe rule of business, why should it be free ? At the same time, the same set of economics will probably find you somebody who will do this for less and maybe even is happy to take your business and setup v4/v6 dual stack for free. So get a quote from a competitor, call back 701 and offer them the choice of setting up the tunnel or loose a customer. My personal preference would be to leave and find somebody who can do native all the way. MarcoH
Is dual-stacking with an edge device considered native? Or is "true" native when you have an edge device or any network device for that matter that's v6 only? Just curious....
Subject: Re: v6 bgp peer costs? From: marcoh@marcoh.net Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:22:14 +0200 To: zaid@zaidali.com CC: nanog@nanog.org
On 21 jul 2010, at 21:08, Zaid Ali wrote:
I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience?
I think the main question here would be, what they would charge for a change to a v4 session. Most likely they just decided that setting up the tunnel and configuring BGP takes time and since time is money they decided to charge for you. Seems like a reasonabe rule of business, why should it be free ? At the same time, the same set of economics will probably find you somebody who will do this for less and maybe even is happy to take your business and setup v4/v6 dual stack for free.
So get a quote from a competitor, call back 701 and offer them the choice of setting up the tunnel or loose a customer. My personal preference would be to leave and find somebody who can do native all the way.
MarcoH
On 7/21/10 12:22 PM, "Marco Hogewoning" <marcoh@marcoh.net> wrote:
On 21 jul 2010, at 21:08, Zaid Ali wrote:
I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience?
I think the main question here would be, what they would charge for a change to a v4 session. Most likely they just decided that setting up the tunnel and configuring BGP takes time and since time is money they decided to charge for you. Seems like a reasonabe rule of business, why should it be free ? At the same time, the same set of economics will probably find you somebody who will do this for less and maybe even is happy to take your business and setup v4/v6 dual stack for free.
So get a quote from a competitor, call back 701 and offer them the choice of setting up the tunnel or loose a customer. My personal preference would be to leave and find somebody who can do native all the way.
MarcoH
Thanks, I am trying to see if there is a trend or anomalous gouging. From off-list answers it doesn't seem like a trend among other vendors. My worry about high costs is when you have several circuits this will add up and going to a CFO to justify will be pretty hard. A CFO will generally say lets deal with that problem next year when v4 actually runs out. Two years ago I felt there wasn't enough motivation for folks to move to v6, I don't see this changing especially when vendors, resellers etc charge more $$ for v6. Zaid
I recently began the process of turning up BGP to AS 701 with both V4 and V6 peers and there were no additional costs. Nathan Sipes Sr. Network Design Specialist Tel: 303-914-4996 FAX: 303-763-3510 Kinder Morgan 370 Van Gordon St Lakewood, CO 80228 Nathan_Sipes@kindermorgan.com -----Original Message----- From: Zaid Ali [mailto:zaid@zaidali.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 1:08 PM To: NANOG list Subject: v6 bgp peer costs? I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience? Thanks, Zaid
You can get a free IPv6 BGP tunnel from Hurricane Electric at http://tunnelbroker.net We have tunnel servers spread through out the world, so typically the nearest server has reasonably low latency from your location. Of course our main business is selling wholesale native IPv6 and IPv4 transit, however you don't have to be a paying customer to use our free service. Mike. On 7/21/10 12:08 PM, Zaid Ali wrote:
I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience?
Thanks, Zaid
I already have a v6 BGP tunnel with Hurricane Electric and works like a charm :) It is other vendors I am concerned about. Zaid On 7/21/10 12:38 PM, "Mike Leber" <mleber@he.net> wrote:
You can get a free IPv6 BGP tunnel from Hurricane Electric at http://tunnelbroker.net
We have tunnel servers spread through out the world, so typically the nearest server has reasonably low latency from your location.
Of course our main business is selling wholesale native IPv6 and IPv4 transit, however you don't have to be a paying customer to use our free service.
Mike.
On 7/21/10 12:08 PM, Zaid Ali wrote:
I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience?
Thanks, Zaid
mleber@he.net (Mike Leber) wrote:
You can get a free IPv6 BGP tunnel from Hurricane Electric at http://tunnelbroker.net
We have tunnel servers spread through out the world, so typically the nearest server has reasonably low latency from your location.
Of course our main business is selling wholesale native IPv6 and IPv4 transit, however you don't have to be a paying customer to use our free service.
On 7/21/10 12:08 PM, Zaid Ali wrote:
I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite
Mike, Mike, I still wonder how you are able to sell the stuff that you are *also* giving away for free (minus the physical port) and that admittedly works like a charm... Elmar. PS: Keep up the good tunne^Wwork! PPS: Any plans on having something inside mainland China?
On 7/21/2010 12:08, Zaid Ali wrote:
I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience?
Ooh, Verizon? Good luck. Do you know what pop (VZ calles them "hubs") your existing circuit is out of? Not all of 701 is IPv6 enabled. If you are currently served from a v4 only location you're out of luck. I ordered an Ethernet circuit from Verizon last year as dual-stack IPv4/IPv6. There was no extra cost involved. However, they never did actually deliver the layer 3 portion, so I just let them languish into obscurity. My problem was that I'm closer to a v4 only pop (Sacramento), but the closest 4/6 pop is further away in San Jose. For some reason they could not figure out how to go there and kept defaulting to Sac. Eventually they called me and said it's just not possible to deliver the service. I ended up placing an order with Global Crossing and the dual-stack process was completely painless. I also have an IPv6 BGP tunnel to Sprint which is included with my v4 service for free. It works fine, but it's still a tunnel and has much higher latency than the DS3 it's running over. Hopefully native in August. ~Seth
On 7/21/10 12:39 PM, "Seth Mattinen" <sethm@rollernet.us> wrote:
On 7/21/2010 12:08, Zaid Ali wrote:
I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience?
Ooh, Verizon? Good luck. Do you know what pop (VZ calles them "hubs") your existing circuit is out of? Not all of 701 is IPv6 enabled. If you are currently served from a v4 only location you're out of luck.
POS-6 SJC
I ordered an Ethernet circuit from Verizon last year as dual-stack IPv4/IPv6. There was no extra cost involved. However, they never did actually deliver the layer 3 portion, so I just let them languish into obscurity. My problem was that I'm closer to a v4 only pop (Sacramento), but the closest 4/6 pop is further away in San Jose. For some reason they could not figure out how to go there and kept defaulting to Sac. Eventually they called me and said it's just not possible to deliver the service. I ended up placing an order with Global Crossing and the dual-stack process was completely painless.
Sigh.. Explains why I never got a straight answer on native v6 support. First they said yes then now Tunnel only. Perhaps time to turn them off. Zaid
On 2010-07-21-15:08:10, Zaid Ali <zaid@zaidali.com> wrote:
I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience?
You're certainly not in the minority. The practice of charging for v6 service (I've seen it represented as a MRC, NRC, and/or per-mb premium) seems partly rooted in a desire to gouge unsuspecting customers, and partly an honest misunderstanding of an organization's change processes and systems (is v6 considered a change request? New order?)... Whatever the situation, the correct response is to demand native connectivity at no charge, or else walk away at the expiration of your contract. Tunnels are messy now, and stand to become a lot messier as content adaptation and overall traffic volumes increase. -a
We do not charge v4 customers anything to turn up an IPv6 tunnel. If you hear otherwise, please feel free to drop me a line. Native v6 is available in atleast 31 markets, on over 210 edge devices in 701. There is a good chance that native v6 is available for most, or close enough to rehome to a v6 capable device. If native isn't available you should be offered a tunnel for free. I'm happy to try to help anyone with VZ (701/702/703/14551) with their IPv6 issues. --Heather ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Heather Schiller Network Security - Verizon Business 1.800.900.0241 security@verizonbusiness.com -----Original Message----- From: Zaid Ali [mailto:zaid@zaidali.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:08 PM To: NANOG list Subject: v6 bgp peer costs? I currently have a v4 BGP session with AS 701 and recently requested a v6 BGP session to which I was told a tunnel session will be provided (Same circuit would be better but whatever!). Towards the final stage in discussions I was told that it will cost $1500. I find this quite ridiculous and it will certainly not motivate people to move to v6 if providers put a direct price tag on it. I am going through a bandwidth reseller though so I am not sure who is trying to jack me here. Has anyone here gone through a similar experience? Thanks, Zaid
On 7/27/10 10:32 AM, Schiller, Heather A (HeatherSkanks) wrote:
We do not charge v4 customers anything to turn up an IPv6 tunnel. If you hear otherwise, please feel free to drop me a line. Native v6 is available in atleast 31 markets, on over 210 edge devices in 701. There is a good chance that native v6 is available for most, or close enough to rehome to a v6 capable device. If native isn't available you should be offered a tunnel for free.
Although re-homing can take up to a year, and in my case, they gave up trying and just canceled the service. ~Seth
On Jul 27, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
On 7/27/10 10:32 AM, Schiller, Heather A (HeatherSkanks) wrote:
We do not charge v4 customers anything to turn up an IPv6 tunnel. If you hear otherwise, please feel free to drop me a line. Native v6 is available in atleast 31 markets, on over 210 edge devices in 701. There is a good chance that native v6 is available for most, or close enough to rehome to a v6 capable device. If native isn't available you should be offered a tunnel for free.
Although re-homing can take up to a year, and in my case, they gave up trying and just canceled the service.
I must say going with a provider that has a truly native network plan vs 6PE model (as presented at NANOG) might avoid these problems. There are likely to be a lot of people in the next 12-18 months that start running around trying to upgrade and bolt IPv6 to their networks, utilizing methods like 6PE, etc.. and this problem is likely to get worse before it gets better. I'm honestly interested in what the US based DSL (incumbent) providers are doing for IPv6 (eg: att/bls/sbc/uverse, qwest, vz dsl). Most of the "ethernet" (including PON) equipment is more likely to do IPv6 correctly, but I'm not sure that the PPPo* DSL equipment is going to be quite as happy with it. This should be interesting. I also look forward to seeing what devices start to keel over by software vs hardware switched IPv6 paths as traffic increases. - Jared
On 2010-07-27 20:03, Jared Mauch wrote: [..]
I'm honestly interested in what the US based DSL (incumbent) providers are doing for IPv6 (eg: att/bls/sbc/uverse, qwest, vz dsl). Most of the "ethernet" (including PON) equipment is more likely to do IPv6 correctly, but I'm not sure that the PPPo* DSL equipment is going to be quite as happy with it.
I actually have only one answer that makes sense for this: 6rd Or to state it in a more complete way: - native IPv4 + IPv6 where possible - native IPv4 + 6rd everywhere else Any other method has deployment-wise too much overhead or not enough control and 6rd is rapidly getting implemented in a lot of hardware. Actually today I noticed that even iproute (aka 'ip' on Linux) has 6rd support built-in, dunno when that happened, but that is nice to see. Yes, you lose a few bits, yes you have to come up with a way of mapping the IPv4 space in your IPv6 address plan, but that is not soo difficult and actually will make network admins happy as the bits are easy to identify. Of course, if one has CPE at the enduser which can do PPPv6 then PPPv6 definitely is also a proper "native" alike deployment scenario.
This should be interesting. I also look forward to seeing what devices start to keel over by software vs hardware switched IPv6 paths as traffic increases.
That one will be very interesting indeed. In the case of 6rd though one can just add more hardware to the pile and anycast it to make it scale as far as one wants. And yes, I indeed say to just add Linux/BSD boxes for handling this, 1U boxes are cheap, OS is easy to install as you do with all those webservers/storage/mail etc you already have anyway, thus it is just another box to add to the auto-deploy setup. One has to remember though that 6rd is a TRANSITION mechanism that should fade away on the long run. For the next year or two though most likely one can get away with tunneled connectivity, after that, when major sites will be enabling IPv6 and thus content and traffic shifts from IPv4 to IPv6 the folks who are already trying to get native to their customers today and have hardware IPv6 enabled in their cores will definitely have a monetary advantage. One important thing folks should not forget though is to make sure that they can handle abuse and statistics properly. Take that into account from the start and you'll save yourself a lot of hassle. As for non-managed/non-owned paths, ISPs can then always still opt for a tunnel-broker like solution, be that PPTP based, TIC(AYIYA/hb) or TSP based. Like always, what shoe best fits your foot. But do think about what you want to be running on till the next upgrade cycle of your hardware comes around ;) Greets, Jeroen
participants (11)
-
Adam Rothschild -
Brandon Kim -
Elmar K. Bins -
Jared Mauch -
Jeroen Massar -
Marco Hogewoning -
Mike Leber -
Schiller, Heather A (HeatherSkanks) -
Seth Mattinen -
Sipes, Nathan -
Zaid Ali