Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference
Of course, every local carrier will be different, what are the current preferences for pre-wiring a customer demarc (NID, the box that hangs on the outside of the house, whatever the service provider calls it now)? 1. Nothing - telco/cable will do whatever the heck they want and wreck the outside of the house anyway 2. Smurf tube from demarc to central distribution point with an interior power outlet near the demarc 3. ANSI TIA-570 prewire (2 x CAT 6, 2 x RG 6) from demarc to central distribution point (low-voltage contractors don't use UV-rated cable for the demarc, and the jacket is trash in a few years) In the past, I found if I made the pre-wire look nice and easy for the field technician, they usually made the extra effort to keep their work clean and tidy.
On 11/19/23 16:54, Sean Donelan wrote:
Of course, every local carrier will be different, what are the current preferences for pre-wiring a customer demarc (NID, the box that hangs on the outside of the house, whatever the service provider calls it now)?
1. Nothing - telco/cable will do whatever the heck they want and wreck the outside of the house anyway
This is pretty much the norm around me. If I can get with a builder prior to the walls getting closed up, I will hand them a spool I/O fiber for them to run from whatever they call the inside service point to the outside demarc for me, and they usually don't screw it up.
2. Smurf tube from demarc to central distribution point with an interior power outlet near the demarc
This certainly works well.
3. ANSI TIA-570 prewire (2 x CAT 6, 2 x RG 6) from demarc to central distribution point (low-voltage contractors don't use UV-rated cable for the demarc, and the jacket is trash in a few years)
This is almost pointless in the world of FTTH with indoor ONTs being preferred and even basically required for XGSPON (outdoor ONTs for XGSPON are uncommon and expensive). It'll make the local cable MSO happy, though, since they have RF ready to go. It'll make the local fiber provider scratch their heads and try to decide if it's worth using an outdoor ONT or just ignoring the pre-wire and starting from scratch. This is doubly true of there's no outlet near the pre-wire outside the home. How the heck am I going to power my outdoor ONT to use that CAT6 without one? Reverse-power outdoor ONTs are even rarer and even more expensive.
In the past, I found if I made the pre-wire look nice and easy for the field technician, they usually made the extra effort to keep their work clean and tidy.
Most installations are contractors, and they get paid by the job with an add-on schedule that nobody's willing to pay for, so they're going to have a roughly set amount of effort they're willing to put into a job. If you've done 90% of the work for them, then that effort can be put into making it tidy. If they have to do everything from scratch, see your point (1). Due to the use of indoor ONTs, lack of fiber pre-wire, and combined with customers wanting hand-holding up to and including managing their "in home WiFi", the "point of demarcation" has become really nebulous. In practice, the real demarc for many resi customers is their 802.11 SSID.
Around here, the local carrier seems to have stopped FTTH deployment. Instead, the carrier is convincing home builders not to spend money on demarc pre-wire. Wireless Home 5G service is all customers' need. Of course, the lack of demarc planning makes things more expensive for any post-construction competitor. And don't get me started about the lack of information of what's available in the utility easments. The builders don't know, and the service providers won't say. The FCC broadband maps are a lot of hand-waving by service providers.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com>
Around here, the local carrier seems to have stopped FTTH deployment. Instead, the carrier is convincing home builders not to spend money on demarc pre-wire. Wireless Home 5G service is all customers' need.
Of course, the lack of demarc planning makes things more expensive for any post-construction competitor. And don't get me started about the lack of information of what's available in the utility easments. The builders don't know, and the service providers won't say. The FCC broadband maps are a lot of hand-waving by service providers.
Well, that's not going to end well. Sadly, the circumstance in which we'll find out will be if SHTF, and after that failure, it won't matter much. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
For *only* $1,000, the builder is willing to pre-install a smurf tube from the demarc to the central distribution point. But such a deal for 5G.... Since most fiber installs seem to use pre-connectorized cable, without affecting building structure integrity (i.e. 2-inch is too big according to builder), how small is too small? Trade size 1/2-inch, 3/4-inch, 1-inch? Does the FTTH industry have any published standards? This is why I don't help friends troubleshoot PC printer problems :-)
I can't speak for US standards, however, in Australia on the National Broadband Network the standard for lead-in conduit is P20 conduit (23mm inner diameter with 26.6mm to 26.8mm outer diameter). I imagine in the US it may be something similar. Page 17 of https://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbn/documents/developers/newdevs/NBN-DE.... Regards, Christopher Hawker ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org> on behalf of Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 4:35 AM To: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference For *only* $1,000, the builder is willing to pre-install a smurf tube from the demarc to the central distribution point. But such a deal for 5G.... Since most fiber installs seem to use pre-connectorized cable, without affecting building structure integrity (i.e. 2-inch is too big according to builder), how small is too small? Trade size 1/2-inch, 3/4-inch, 1-inch? Does the FTTH industry have any published standards? This is why I don't help friends troubleshoot PC printer problems :-)
Sorry long, detailed message. TL;DR - Use 1-inch trade size smurf tube for new North America FTTH construction. North American FTTH may not have standards for the in-building access conduit between the demarc point, Minimum Point of Entry (MPOE) in the old terminology, and the dwelling's distribution point. But thanks to Christopher Hawker for pointing me to other country's national broadband deployment guidance. In the US, we don't even have a consistent word to describe that line on the network drawings. That line seems to be an "out of scope" gap between the the FCC demarc rules and TIA inside wiring standards. Other countries with strong FTTH deployments have written a lot of rules about that line. Germany has extremely detailed FTTH building standards which influenced other European country FTTH standards. Carriers in several Middle East and other Commonwealth countries with national FTTH deployments have lots of documents for new builders. Bear with me, because I'm going to translate nominal metric measurements and translate country-specific "pre-wire" rules using North American terms. Conduit, tube, pathway generally mean the same thing to me, but some people have been annoyed because their country uses different words. Most FTTH countries specify a nominal 25mm I.D./32mm O.D. (equivalent to 1-inch US trade size) conduit/duct/pathway between the "dwelling" Distribution Point and the NID/demarc entrance point for new construction. In multi-dwelling unit buildings (i.e. apartments) the 25mm/32mm duct is between the apartment and a "consolidation point" for a group of apartments or the floor. Mansions (palaces) and other building types specify larger access conduit sizes. Countries vary a little, i.e. UK and Ireland have the smallest minimum access duct size (20mm I.D./25 mm O.D.) and some Middle Eastern countries have the largest (40mm ID/50 mm OD). Australia is just weird with a Telstra legacy conduit size. Overall 25mm ID/32mm OD (equivalent 1-inch trade size) is the most common. The biggest difference between country's FTTH rules are rigid vs. flexible conduit and the material specified, i.e. schedule 40 PVC vs. HDPE vs. other. Also very confusing because the metric "Diametre nominel" size for pipes/conduit isn't the actual size of the conduits in metric measurements. 25mm is really 26.64mm inside diameter. Likewise the American National Pipe Standard isn't the actual measurement either. American 1-inch trade size is 1.029" inside diameter. The convention metric countries uses for 32mm outside diameter is really 33.40 mm. Confused yet? Google translate does not help with construction codes. The good news for North America construction, a 1-inch trade size HDPE/Schedule 40 PVC or smurf tube/duct/conduit/pathway requires drilling a 1-3/8 inch hole through framing studs. A 1-3/8 hole is just smaller than the maximum sized hole size allowed in a standard 2x4 framing stud (which isn't actually 2-inches by 4-inches) by North American building codes. So the builder does not need to charge extra to 'double' the framing studs for 'structural integrity' according to the building code. Builder's scare quotes are intentional. Insert NSFW construction joke here :-) Mine (and my friend who will own the the new house) assumption is the builder's proposed $1,000 charge is really a "stop listening to your crazy friend, and let me build your house" charge.
On 11/22/23 12:35, Sean Donelan wrote:
For *only* $1,000, the builder is willing to pre-install a smurf tube from the demarc to the central distribution point. But such a deal for 5G....
Yeah that's ridiculous. Running such a thing while the walls are still open is a piece of cake, and the material is maybe $50-100 depending on distance.
Since most fiber installs seem to use pre-connectorized cable, without affecting building structure integrity (i.e. 2-inch is too big according to builder), how small is too small? Trade size 1/2-inch, 3/4-inch, 1-inch?
Does the FTTH industry have any published standards?
At least my experience has been that, where pre-connectorized drop cables are used, they're only pre-termed on the telco side (often, but by no means always in a hardened connector). The customer side is either unterminated or uses a small ferrule with a snap-on housing precisely so that it can be fished through small holes in walls/framing and small or crowded conduits. In practice, 1/2" trade size smurf tube is big enough if it's not too long and bendy especially if they're willing to get one with a pull-string already in it (and the guy before you is nice enough to pull another). If it's a long or bendy drop or you want a little extra piece of mind, 3/4" is readily available not too expensive. 1" starts to get a bit expensive and is usually unnecessary. I personally connectorize both sides in the field. Having the ability to do it is invaluable for repairs, and it's not that much harder to do two sides than one especially if you're already fishing wires and such. If you're using hardened connectors, the situation is different since they're not commonly available for field install, though it is a thing you can get. I'm not aware of any published standards focusing on FTTx in North America. All the standards I know of are datacenter/mid-size business oriented and are going to call for ridiculous (in FTTx) things like 2"+ rigid conduit on the assumption it'll have at least a 48F loose-tube in it and probably more than one. I would imagine some of the national ogre telcos who are still doing FTTx deployments will have a pre-build guide for at least MDUs that might be useful, though around here they often just show up when the first person orders service and treat the building as "existing" even if it was just built last week. I'm guessing they have so many existing buildings to deal with at least right now that this isn't a huge deal for them and may even be easier than having two classes of MDU installs (existing and pre-wire). AT&T and Centurylink/Lumen are the most likely to have them IMO, but checking Frontier/Verizon (do they still have ANY wireline territory?) may be useful, too, especially since they were the earliest ones to do it. -- Brandon Martin
Thanks Brandon Martin, I agree 1-inch smurf tube is overkill for FTTH. From my quick research into all things FTTH, which I didn't know anything a week ago :-) ... The regulators in other countries still believe they will create competition. The 25mm/32mm access duct (I'm going to make up a new term, and just call it "access duct", i.e. that smurf tube, conduit, pathway thing) is big enough for either a fiber microduct, cat 6 copper or RG6 coax. Even a 12/24/48-volt DC power cable for active equipment at the NID/demarc. The regulators keep all their competitors happy by not favoring any particular technology. In practice, the countries with the biggest FTTH deployments have very little FTTH competition at the physical access layer. Microduct, microduct, microduct is what the dominant access provider wants in those countries. The dominant carrier wants builders to install "direct fiber" or "bypass fiber" microducts in new construction directly from every dwelling (house or apartment) to the carrier's central access point for the builder's development (apartment buildings or neighborhood). Microduct only means no pre-built access for other competitors. Apartment construction in Asia is very large. Several countries are also adding in-building mobile/wireless service requirements for new MDU building construction. My interpretation, not understanding the country-specific FTTH fights... The regulators appear to say, Ok, dominant carrier - you can have "direct fiber" microduct but builders must also provide an "open competition" 25mm/32mm access duct from the building entrance point (NID) or apartment consolidation points (CP) to the individual distribution box (DD) inside each dwelling. Just my uninformed take, corrections welcome.
If I was building a house I'd just get some 1" conduit from the outside to the inside. Put it in a NEMA box. That solves the problem forever. As a fiber ISP, and assuming you're doing your own WiFi in the house, you can do conduit inside or we can just run the fiber. We don't want to run up/down walls and such. 99% of our installs are through the exterior wall and then a u6x covers the house. We run fiber If you're in a cableCo area just run coax to get to your modem/router situation. I'm not sure what the Cat5 is for outside. Ethernet isn't going to work and DSL is nearly dead already. On Fri, Nov 24, 2023 at 2:33 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Thanks Brandon Martin,
I agree 1-inch smurf tube is overkill for FTTH. From my quick research into all things FTTH, which I didn't know anything a week ago :-) ...
The regulators in other countries still believe they will create competition. The 25mm/32mm access duct (I'm going to make up a new term, and just call it "access duct", i.e. that smurf tube, conduit, pathway thing) is big enough for either a fiber microduct, cat 6 copper or RG6 coax. Even a 12/24/48-volt DC power cable for active equipment at the NID/demarc. The regulators keep all their competitors happy by not favoring any particular technology.
In practice, the countries with the biggest FTTH deployments have very little FTTH competition at the physical access layer.
Microduct, microduct, microduct is what the dominant access provider wants in those countries. The dominant carrier wants builders to install "direct fiber" or "bypass fiber" microducts in new construction directly from every dwelling (house or apartment) to the carrier's central access point for the builder's development (apartment buildings or neighborhood).
Microduct only means no pre-built access for other competitors.
Apartment construction in Asia is very large. Several countries are also adding in-building mobile/wireless service requirements for new MDU building construction.
My interpretation, not understanding the country-specific FTTH fights...
The regulators appear to say, Ok, dominant carrier - you can have "direct fiber" microduct but builders must also provide an "open competition" 25mm/32mm access duct from the building entrance point (NID) or apartment consolidation points (CP) to the individual distribution box (DD) inside each dwelling.
Just my uninformed take, corrections welcome.
On 11/27/2023 09:12, Josh Luthman wrote:
If I was building a house I'd just get some 1" conduit from the outside to the inside. Put it in a NEMA box. That solves the problem forever.
1" is great if you can get it, and I'd try to argue for it. I'd settle for 3/4" Builders and resi electricians are going to hate 1". It's not something they'll stock nor is it readily available at cheeeap prices that they seek. 3/4" ENT is available fairly cheap, and the electricians are going to have a hole hog big enough for it which they may not have for 1" if they're truly resi-only. I can see the adder for 1" being eye-rolling as a result.
As a fiber ISP, and assuming you're doing your own WiFi in the house, you can do conduit inside or we can just run the fiber. We don't want to run up/down walls and such. 99% of our installs are through the exterior wall and then a u6x covers the house. We run fiber
Same. I don't expect to find a house pre-wired with suitable fiber from the outside utility access area to the inside distribution point. I'll use it if it's there, but the only time I've ever had that happen is when I've managed to hand the builder (or, more likely, the electrical contractor themselves) a spool of fiber during construction. Usually this is only on custom and semi-custom homes. Tract home electricians aren't going to do ANYTHING outside their SOW. Most large fiber ISPs won't use existing fiber even if it's there and suitable. They don't trust it, and it's not "standard" for them. Occasionally the install techs may bend the rules. When I'm running fiber for a customer, anything more than "rise up from the ground and poke it through the wall" is getting into "premium installation with upcharge" territory. Nobody wants to pay for it. Most other fiber ISPs seem similar.
If you're in a cableCo area just run coax to get to your modem/router situation.
Agreed. In theory they could also use suitable fiber for RFoG if they've got such a deployment in the area. I'm not aware of any standards for such prewires, and like above I doubt they'd want to use it even if it were present. All of the MSOs I know of doing RFoG to the home put a micro-nid outdoors and reverse power it over coax from inside. Fiber doesn't enter the home itself.
I'm not sure what the Cat5 is for outside. Ethernet isn't going to work and DSL is nearly dead already.
I suspect the relevant ANSI standard is just old and dates back to POTS+DSL. CAT6 is great for VDSL and G.FAST, and a standard cable gives you 4 pairs to work with and is cheap and fairly tolerant of abuse during install. I would love to see the relevant standard updated to include e.g. a duplex or 6-count tight buffered or breakout single-mode fiber cable. -- Brandon Martin
That’s exactly what I did. I was able to get a 3/4 conduit from my furnace room/network closet to the exterior of my home where utilities enter. It took some doing but I got it in, terminated in a NEMA box. When we got fiber a few years ago, the installer told me it was the easiest install he’s ever done. In that conduit I have fiber, coax, one Cat6 and also a sprinkler wire (whomever built my home had sprinklers put in the back yard but not the front, but I took care of that oversight). ---- Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 202-1230 andy@andyring.com “A private central bank issuing the public currency is a greater menace to the liberties of the people than a standing army. We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.” -Thomas Jefferson
On Nov 27, 2023, at 8:12 AM, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
If I was building a house I'd just get some 1" conduit from the outside to the inside. Put it in a NEMA box. That solves the problem forever.
As a fiber ISP, and assuming you're doing your own WiFi in the house, you can do conduit inside or we can just run the fiber. We don't want to run up/down walls and such. 99% of our installs are through the exterior wall and then a u6x covers the house. We run fiber
If you're in a cableCo area just run coax to get to your modem/router situation.
I'm not sure what the Cat5 is for outside. Ethernet isn't going to work and DSL is nearly dead already.
On Fri, Nov 24, 2023 at 2:33 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote: Thanks Brandon Martin,
I agree 1-inch smurf tube is overkill for FTTH. From my quick research into all things FTTH, which I didn't know anything a week ago :-) ...
The regulators in other countries still believe they will create competition. The 25mm/32mm access duct (I'm going to make up a new term, and just call it "access duct", i.e. that smurf tube, conduit, pathway thing) is big enough for either a fiber microduct, cat 6 copper or RG6 coax. Even a 12/24/48-volt DC power cable for active equipment at the NID/demarc. The regulators keep all their competitors happy by not favoring any particular technology.
In practice, the countries with the biggest FTTH deployments have very little FTTH competition at the physical access layer.
Microduct, microduct, microduct is what the dominant access provider wants in those countries. The dominant carrier wants builders to install "direct fiber" or "bypass fiber" microducts in new construction directly from every dwelling (house or apartment) to the carrier's central access point for the builder's development (apartment buildings or neighborhood).
Microduct only means no pre-built access for other competitors.
Apartment construction in Asia is very large. Several countries are also adding in-building mobile/wireless service requirements for new MDU building construction.
My interpretation, not understanding the country-specific FTTH fights...
The regulators appear to say, Ok, dominant carrier - you can have "direct fiber" microduct but builders must also provide an "open competition" 25mm/32mm access duct from the building entrance point (NID) or apartment consolidation points (CP) to the individual distribution box (DD) inside each dwelling.
Just my uninformed take, corrections welcome.
On Nov 27, 2023, at 11:45, Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote:
That’s exactly what I did. I was able to get a 3/4 conduit from my furnace room/network closet to the exterior of my home where utilities enter. It took some doing but I got it in, terminated in a NEMA box.
Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge. Owen
On 11/27/23 18:52, owen--- via NANOG wrote:
Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.
Most residential electrical contractors are going to use rated ENT since it's what they can easily get at a normal supply house or even home center. This is the stuff made popular by Carlon in their trademark blue that makes people call it "smurf tube". It's readily available in 1/2" and 3/4" everywhere from home centers to basically any supply house. 1" is less common - most home centers don't have it, and since it isn't normally needed in residential nor is ENT basically ever used in commercial, neither do a lot of strictly electrical supply houses. You can of course get corrugated communication duct in that size, often with mule tape pre-installed as a bonus, but a lot of electrical supply houses that deal only in "electrical" and not "communications" don't have that and will send folks to a "low voltage communication supplier" or have to special order it. A lot of electrical contractors, especially residential, would rather not bother with a separate supply run, and having to wait is a pain if it wasn't planned early on and also often means you're paying freight separately. Even then, most of the folks going to a communications supplier are going to reach straight for 1.25" or larger in commercial since you don't have to worry about drilling studs. As I recall, my local communication cable house didn't even have 1" in stock, but they did have 1.25" in stock, and their price was basically the same as the 1" as a result. So it's not that it doesn't exist or anything, it's just that, at least as far as I've seen, there's not a ton of demand for it, so local stock is thin. All that said, I just checked Home Depot, and they are showing some stock on 1" ENT at my local store, so maybe that's changing. Used to be they only stocked 3/4" and 1/2". They still only have 25ft hanks of the 1" stuff (you can get 1/2" and 3/4" in 25 or 100-200ft), but at least they have it now. It is still about 4x the price of 3/4" per unit length, though. -- Brandon Martin
Why not just use SCH40 PVC sticks? Everywhere stocks that in copious levels. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Martin" <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2023 9:27:58 AM Subject: Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference On 11/27/23 18:52, owen--- via NANOG wrote:
Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.
Most residential electrical contractors are going to use rated ENT since it's what they can easily get at a normal supply house or even home center. This is the stuff made popular by Carlon in their trademark blue that makes people call it "smurf tube". It's readily available in 1/2" and 3/4" everywhere from home centers to basically any supply house. 1" is less common - most home centers don't have it, and since it isn't normally needed in residential nor is ENT basically ever used in commercial, neither do a lot of strictly electrical supply houses. You can of course get corrugated communication duct in that size, often with mule tape pre-installed as a bonus, but a lot of electrical supply houses that deal only in "electrical" and not "communications" don't have that and will send folks to a "low voltage communication supplier" or have to special order it. A lot of electrical contractors, especially residential, would rather not bother with a separate supply run, and having to wait is a pain if it wasn't planned early on and also often means you're paying freight separately. Even then, most of the folks going to a communications supplier are going to reach straight for 1.25" or larger in commercial since you don't have to worry about drilling studs. As I recall, my local communication cable house didn't even have 1" in stock, but they did have 1.25" in stock, and their price was basically the same as the 1" as a result. So it's not that it doesn't exist or anything, it's just that, at least as far as I've seen, there's not a ton of demand for it, so local stock is thin. All that said, I just checked Home Depot, and they are showing some stock on 1" ENT at my local store, so maybe that's changing. Used to be they only stocked 3/4" and 1/2". They still only have 25ft hanks of the 1" stuff (you can get 1/2" and 3/4" in 25 or 100-200ft), but at least they have it now. It is still about 4x the price of 3/4" per unit length, though. -- Brandon Martin
On 11/28/23 10:42, Mike Hammett wrote:
Why not just use SCH40 PVC sticks? Everywhere stocks that in copious levels.
Ever tried to snake one of those through a wall? They're great for just pushing through a wall penetration to something directly adjacent on the inside, though. At that point you might as well for for 2", honestly. -- Brandon Martin
Keep in mind new construction versus having to get around drywall. 2" is beyond excessive. We use 1.25" duct for our 288ct *PLUS* up to 6 flat drop cables. On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 7:45 PM Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> wrote:
On 11/28/23 10:42, Mike Hammett wrote:
Why not just use SCH40 PVC sticks? Everywhere stocks that in copious levels.
Ever tried to snake one of those through a wall?
They're great for just pushing through a wall penetration to something directly adjacent on the inside, though. At that point you might as well for for 2", honestly.
-- Brandon Martin
On 12/1/23 05:18, Josh Luthman wrote:
Keep in mind new construction versus having to get around drywall.
Rigid conduit is great if you can get it. If you can, by all means go for it! However, if the outside utility aggregation point is not pretty much on the other side of the wall from the inside media aggregation point, rigid conduit can be a pain even in new construction. Outside of a few select areas (Chicago, parts of NYC) where it's required even in stick-built residential construction for electrical wires (and then it's usually metal, not plastic), most residential electricians almost never use it aside from maybe a short run between the meter base and panel - generally right on the other side of the wall from each other. If the path is complicated, you end up having to piece together fittings to make the path up and keep proper sweep, and of course you can't feasibly get it horizontally into stud framed walls at all unless you can poke it in from the edge which involves an otherwise unnecessary hole in the corner board or you resort to cutting it into 16" pieces and putting it back together with couplers. You can surface mount it to the bottom of floor joists, for example, but then you can't drywall that ceiling without building out a chase. Corrugated plastic conduit like ENT or comm duct can be pulled in essentially like NM cable (Romex). It's easy, fast, and it's a process essentially all resi electricians are familiar and comfortable with. I'm thinking mostly SFU construction here, but a lot of the same concerns apply to MDUs as well. The 4-over style wood framed buildings that have become popular are generally wired in NM and SE cable. There's often no good path for a rigid conduit with proper sweep to every unit. Flexible/corrugated duct is just a lot more, well, flexible.
2" is beyond excessive. We use 1.25" duct for our 288ct *PLUS* up to 6 flat drop cables.
I agree in principle, but it allows for plenty of room for multiple utilities to get in without worrying about tearing up the others' cables. If it's just poking through a wall, you're talking, what 8" of pipe? -- Brandon Martin Mothic Technologies 317-565-1357 x7000
On 12/2/23 11:59, Brandon Martin wrote:
On 12/1/23 05:18, Josh Luthman wrote:
Keep in mind new construction versus having to get around drywall.
Rigid conduit is great if you can get it. If you can, by all means go for it!
Rigid conduit is essentially galvanized plumbing pipe. Very rare in new construction other than for overhead electrical service entrance. It's extremely heavy and difficult to work with. As its name suggests, it's quite rigid. Not easily bent or cut and needs to be threaded. Innerduct or ENT is far less expensive and orders of magnitude easier to deal with for low voltage applications. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
On 12/2/23 15:09, Jay Hennigan wrote:
Rigid conduit is essentially galvanized plumbing pipe. Very rare in new construction other than for overhead electrical service entrance. It's extremely heavy and difficult to work with. As its name suggests, it's quite rigid. Not easily bent or cut and needs to be threaded.
I didn't mean strictly RMC but any form of generally rigid conduit to include rigid PVC. You're correct that RMC is rarely used for anything other than service masts at least as far as I've seen. The only other time I see it used is classified (explosive) environments.
Innerduct or ENT is far less expensive and orders of magnitude easier to deal with for low voltage applications.
That's pretty much my point. Even EMT (which can be bent with a bender or "hicky" but is otherwise rigid) and PVC are a pain to work with in comparison to something that's basically flexible tubing.
On Nov 28, 2023, at 07:27, Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> wrote:
On 11/27/23 18:52, owen--- via NANOG wrote:
Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.
Most residential electrical contractors are going to use rated ENT since it's what they can easily get at a normal supply house or even home center. This is the stuff made popular by Carlon in their trademark blue that makes people call it "smurf tube". It's readily available in 1/2" and 3/4" everywhere from home centers to basically any supply house. 1" is less common - most home centers don't have it, and since it isn't normally needed in residential nor is ENT basically ever used in commercial, neither do a lot of strictly electrical supply houses.
I’ve never used ENT (never even seen that name, TBH). 1” EMT is readily available at Home Depot and Lowes out here as well as several reputable supply houses.
You can of course get corrugated communication duct in that size, often with mule tape pre-installed as a bonus, but a lot of electrical supply houses that deal only in "electrical" and not "communications" don't have that and will send folks to a "low voltage communication supplier" or have to special order it. A lot of electrical contractors, especially residential, would rather not bother with a separate supply run, and having to wait is a pain if it wasn't planned early on and also often means you're paying freight separately.
Agreed, but out here at least, almost all of the electricians don’t bother with ENT and most do both commercial and residential work, so they just keep EMT on the trucks and usually have up to 2” readily available, with 3” and 4” in the not particularly difficult, but too bulky to carry unless needed category. I guess this may vary with locality.
Even then, most of the folks going to a communications supplier are going to reach straight for 1.25" or larger in commercial since you don't have to worry about drilling studs. As I recall, my local communication cable house didn't even have 1" in stock, but they did have 1.25" in stock, and their price was basically the same as the 1" as a result.
Sure, but smurf tubing is a hole other thing. Amusingly, at least locally, smooth interduct is easier to find than corrugated smurf tubing, though both are readily available.
So it's not that it doesn't exist or anything, it's just that, at least as far as I've seen, there's not a ton of demand for it, so local stock is thin.
I guess this varies by locality.
All that said, I just checked Home Depot, and they are showing some stock on 1" ENT at my local store, so maybe that's changing. Used to be they only stocked 3/4" and 1/2". They still only have 25ft hanks of the 1" stuff (you can get 1/2" and 3/4" in 25 or 100-200ft), but at least they have it now. It is still about 4x the price of 3/4" per unit length, though.
Interesting… ENT is apparently plastic and has interesting snap fittings. Until this email, I’ve never even looked into it. Used plenty of the “ENT” boxes, but always just called them PVC (since that’s what the ENT stuff is apparently made of). EMT is way more common out here than ENT, and even where plastic is used, most seem to use straight electrical PVC (grey stuff usually) instead of of the ENT brand stuff. YMMV of course. Owne
On 11/28/23 12:43, Owen DeLong wrote:
I’ve never used ENT (never even seen that name, TBH). 1” EMT is readily available at Home Depot and Lowes out here as well as several reputable supply houses. ... Interesting… ENT is apparently plastic and has interesting snap fittings. Until this email, I’ve never even looked into it. Used plenty of the “ENT” boxes, but always just called them PVC (since that’s what the ENT stuff is apparently made of). EMT is way more common out here than ENT, and even where plastic is used, most seem to use straight electrical PVC (grey stuff usually) instead of of the ENT brand stuff.
It really comes down to if the path is straight or complicated. If it's just poking straight through a wall to something adjacent on the inside or nearby, rigid pipe works fine, is easy enough to work with, and is readily available. However if the external "demarc area" and inside "media aggregation area" aren't nearby or are separated by a convoluted path once running inside walls and ceilings is taken into account, flexible conduit is obviously easier, and ENT is a readily available option most electricians are going to be familiar with for that. It's literally where the term "smurf tube" came from AFAIK. It's not itself a brand-specific thing (indeed multiple manufacturers make it) and is just yet another type of raceway defined by NEC, but the blue Carlon stuff is well known. -- Brandon Martin
On Nov 30, 2023, at 16:50, Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> wrote:
On 11/28/23 12:43, Owen DeLong wrote:
I’ve never used ENT (never even seen that name, TBH). 1” EMT is readily available at Home Depot and Lowes out here as well as several reputable supply houses. ... Interesting… ENT is apparently plastic and has interesting snap fittings. Until this email, I’ve never even looked into it. Used plenty of the “ENT” boxes, but always just called them PVC (since that’s what the ENT stuff is apparently made of). EMT is way more common out here than ENT, and even where plastic is used, most seem to use straight electrical PVC (grey stuff usually) instead of of the ENT brand stuff.
It really comes down to if the path is straight or complicated.
If it's just poking straight through a wall to something adjacent on the inside or nearby, rigid pipe works fine, is easy enough to work with, and is readily available.
However if the external "demarc area" and inside "media aggregation area" aren't nearby or are separated by a convoluted path once running inside walls and ceilings is taken into account, flexible conduit is obviously easier, and ENT is a readily available option most electricians are going to be familiar with for that. It's literally where the term "smurf tube" came from AFAIK. It's not itself a brand-specific thing (indeed multiple manufacturers make it) and is just yet another type of raceway defined by NEC, but the blue Carlon stuff is well known.
Interesting… I’ve always thought of that super-thin flimsy corrugated plastic cut side tubing (similar to this): https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panduit/CLT50F-C3?qs=gyp5g9lXdE5smA3BAFqGhA%3D%3D&mgh=1&gad_source=1 which (originally) came in a very bright blue and later black, orange, and many other colors. However, apparently ENT was a predecessor to that, I just hadn’t encountered it until now. I don’t recall even seeing it in the aisles at local HDs. I’ll have to look for it. For the most part out here, if it’s going behind sheetrock, contractors/electricians just run Romex or whatever in bare stud holes without any form of conduit. Owen
On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 1:56 AM owen--- via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
However, apparently ENT was a predecessor to that, I just hadn’t encountered it until now. I don’t recall even seeing it in the aisles at local HDs. I’ll have to look for it.
Apparently I spend more time roaming the aisles of the big box home improvement supply stores than you do (I am not proud of that, I just do(*)). I have seen it, and all the associated connectors. and alternatives, for years, although for various reasons I prefer to use the local electrical supply stores when possible to source items (yes, they can be more expensive for some items, but they can also supply items that only the pro's know even exist, so I prefer supporting stores that have that deep competency and supply sourcing). (*) I do not visit the local big box home improvement stores more than once a month or so, but whenever I do I also walk down the aisles which include electrical items even if I have zero reason to purchase any items just to level-set me list of items they stock.
On 11/28/23 12:43, Owen DeLong wrote:
I’ve never used ENT (never even seen that name, TBH). 1” EMT is readily available at Home Depot and Lowes out here as well as several reputable supply houses.
The nice thing about promoting industry standards is clever products to meet those standards will magically show up in big box stores and supply houses :-) Builders and electricians get used to doing it.
I should have known better, network engineers don't work on the physical infrastructure very much anymore - memories of sitting on concrete floors crimping cable ends in to many IXPs :-) If you never seen or installed ENT Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing Conduit, also known as "smurf tube" -- here is a new YouTube video of someone installing a smurf tube between an external DEMARC and internal distribution point for his fiber connection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUCe9lAWY4U In the U.S. - ENT is UL listed as electrical conduit and can be used in most residential (and some commercial) runs. Commonly used for low-voltage and fiber runs in the US. I'm not an expert on other countries wiring codes. ENT is not the same as in-rack wiring management products (i.e. the split-wall plastic wire holders).
Thanks Sean! Looks like over priced residential inner duct to me. Sheet rock accomplishes pretty much the same thing. I want reliable home Internet too, but it’s not a CO. I’d install a PVC sleeve on the OSP to ISP transition. The risk of outage isn’t going to materially move one way or the other as far as I can tell. YMMV, -M< On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 21:28 Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
I should have known better, network engineers don't work on the physical infrastructure very much anymore - memories of sitting on concrete floors crimping cable ends in to many IXPs :-)
If you never seen or installed ENT Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing Conduit, also known as "smurf tube" -- here is a new YouTube video of someone installing a smurf tube between an external DEMARC and internal distribution point for his fiber connection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUCe9lAWY4U
In the U.S. - ENT is UL listed as electrical conduit and can be used in most residential (and some commercial) runs. Commonly used for low-voltage and fiber runs in the US. I'm not an expert on other countries wiring codes.
ENT is not the same as in-rack wiring management products (i.e. the split-wall plastic wire holders).
You've misunderstood the goal. The intent is not to protect the fiber, but to make it easier for the field tech installing new service in a neat way through finished construction and concealled raceways, without cutting sheetrock or stapling exposed cabling across walls. Trying to prevent the next "bad fiber install" set of pictures. U.S. NEC does not require any mechanical protection for fiber cables. You can run "bare" fiber cables through most residential spaces (with a few exceptions for jacket material, i.e. direct burial cable not allowed inside habital spaces). Building codes may vary in other countries. On the other hand, do some searches for "bad fiber install" for many examples of fiber installers stapling fiber around the outside of houses or zip-tied to gas pipes. On Tue, 5 Dec 2023, Martin Hannigan wrote:
Looks like over priced residential inner duct to me. Sheet rock accomplishes pretty much the same thing. I want reliable home Internet too, but it’s not a CO. I’d install a PVC sleeve on the OSP to ISP transition. The risk of outage isn’t going to materially move one way or the other as far as I can tell.
On Wed, Dec 6, 2023 at 3:45 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
U.S. NEC does not require any mechanical protection for fiber cables. You can run "bare" fiber cables through most residential spaces (with a few exceptions for jacket material, i.e. direct burial cable not allowed inside habital spaces).
I also recall the requirement for "plenum rated cable" in some cases (but not typically in residential spaces as the ceilings are not typically part of the expect air circulation system, although, as with all else, your residence will vary).
I think an important point for pre-wire and residential real estate developers to consider is also the conflicting needs of keeping things "neat and tidy" and last mile CPE location vs wifi coverage. Your typical new build residential construction will have something like this in it for telecom purposes: https://imgur.com/RDMn6px Or like this: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F65wgbfel14m91.jpg And then people install their ISP CPE in it and an 802.11ac (or ax) 2x2 or 3x3 router, often this is the same device, and wonder why their performance is bad because the wifi AP happens to be **inside a box with a metal door on it**. Or the ISP tech knows better and tells people that their wifi coverage will be terrible with the CPE inside of the box, so some sort of hack-job is necessary to get power and ethernet to the location where the dual-band AP can be located for optimal whole-home coverage. Some of these now are all plastic and don't block as much 5 GHz signal, so it's not quite as bad... On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 7:46 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
You've misunderstood the goal.
The intent is not to protect the fiber, but to make it easier for the field tech installing new service in a neat way through finished construction and concealled raceways, without cutting sheetrock or stapling exposed cabling across walls.
Trying to prevent the next "bad fiber install" set of pictures.
U.S. NEC does not require any mechanical protection for fiber cables. You can run "bare" fiber cables through most residential spaces (with a few exceptions for jacket material, i.e. direct burial cable not allowed inside habital spaces). Building codes may vary in other countries.
On the other hand, do some searches for "bad fiber install" for many examples of fiber installers stapling fiber around the outside of houses or zip-tied to gas pipes.
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023, Martin Hannigan wrote:
Looks like over priced residential inner duct to me. Sheet rock accomplishes pretty much the same thing. I want reliable home Internet too, but it’s not a CO. I’d install a PVC sleeve on the OSP to ISP transition. The risk of outage isn’t going to materially move one way or the other as far as I can tell.
On 12/6/23 23:22, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
I think an important point for pre-wire and residential real estate developers to consider is also the conflicting needs of keeping things "neat and tidy" and last mile CPE location vs wifi coverage.
If you assume that the appropriate place for a wifi access point is colocated with the NID/ONT/CPE, you're doing it wrong. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
If anyone assumes that residential real estate general contractors and low voltage/wiring subcontractors know or care about wifi signal or not putting RF units inside metal boxes - that would be a bad assumption to make. On Thu, Dec 7, 2023 at 10:18 PM Jay Hennigan <jay@west.net> wrote:
On 12/6/23 23:22, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
I think an important point for pre-wire and residential real estate developers to consider is also the conflicting needs of keeping things "neat and tidy" and last mile CPE location vs wifi coverage.
If you assume that the appropriate place for a wifi access point is colocated with the NID/ONT/CPE, you're doing it wrong.
-- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
We just built a new house in 2021. The builder ran 2" schedule 40 from the side of the house out to the distribution point in front of my neighbor's house. I didn't specify 2" - that's what the builder ran. A portion of that run must have existed before construction because no one had to tear up my neighbor's yard to get to the distro box. Once I convinced Verizon that Fios was indeed available in this neighborhood (separate matter entirely), it was an easy matter for the tech to pull the drop cable through the empty conduit, drill a hole a few feet above the foundation and land the cable in the basement. I didn't run any surface tube or conduit in the basement, but there was enough room for the install tech to run the cable without too much of a fight. Thank you jms On Fri, Dec 8, 2023, 2:06 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
If anyone assumes that residential real estate general contractors and low voltage/wiring subcontractors know or care about wifi signal or not putting RF units inside metal boxes - that would be a bad assumption to make.
On Thu, Dec 7, 2023 at 10:18 PM Jay Hennigan <jay@west.net> wrote:
On 12/6/23 23:22, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
I think an important point for pre-wire and residential real estate developers to consider is also the conflicting needs of keeping things "neat and tidy" and last mile CPE location vs wifi coverage.
If you assume that the appropriate place for a wifi access point is colocated with the NID/ONT/CPE, you're doing it wrong.
-- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
I think an important point for pre-wire and residential real estate developers to consider is also the conflicting needs of keeping things "neat and tidy" and last mile CPE location vs wifi coverage.
The answer is always 5G - 5G - 5G. A 5G solution means the builder doesn't need to spend money on structured cabling in new construction, no residential media wall cabinet, no CAT/RG wiring in the walls, no ugly boxes on your walls. Just put a 5G gateway somewhere in the house and few WiFi mesh devices in other places. "It's so much better" - says design consultant.
On 11/30/23 20:55, owen@Delong.com wrote:
For the most part out here, if it’s going behind sheetrock, contractors/electricians just run Romex or whatever in bare stud holes without any form of conduit.
The nice thing about ENT (or other corrugated plastic conduit) from a residential electrician's point of view is that it basically installs like Romex. -- Brandon Martin
On Nov 27, 2023, at 5:52 PM, owen@Delong.com <owen@delong.com> wrote:
On Nov 27, 2023, at 11:45, Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote:
That’s exactly what I did. I was able to get a 3/4 conduit from my furnace room/network closet to the exterior of my home where utilities enter. It took some doing but I got it in, terminated in a NEMA box.
Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.
Owen
Because in my instance, due to some of the bends involved, 3/4 was the best I could do. The bend radius on a 90 for 1-inch wasn’t going to fit in a couple places along the path. -Andy
My relative is buying a new house is a typical American surbuban tract housing development. Yep, I'm the extended family I.T. consultant. The marketing brochure calls it "custom home" but he only gets to talk to the developer's "design consultants", i.e. sales people. The developer has a sales center and pre-set upsell options, kitchen countertop choices, carpeting, etc. He never talks to the architect, general contractor, electricians or construction crew. He paid for a finished basement option, which means most of the basement will have sheetrock finished walls. So the first cable, fiber or telephone utility will be cutting holes in the new sheetrock. I was trying to avoid needing to cut brand-new sheetrock or fishing wire through walls. The design consultant's answer for everything was 5G ... 5G ... 5G. No more ugly boxes on the house, everything will be wireless. There is a special deal if he signed up for 5G wireless service before his house was finished. For something "no one ever asks about," the design consultant seemed to have a lot of prepared sales pitches. Acting like a dumb homebuyer over the Thanksgiving weekend I did notice the model home had a demarc box on the garage outside wall. The garage in the model home is used as the builder's office, so it may not be how the built homes are setup. A new version of ANSI/TIA-570 (residential wiring standard) is due this year. In the old days, a minimum of one wired telephone outlet was required. I was just wondering if there was new 'standard' for demarcs in new residential construction. But it sounds like there isn't. Draping cables around the sides of the house.
I am not personally aware of such a standard that is used in every state, but it is worth checking with the state authority to see what standards are applicable in the state. That being said, I would ask if the home is being prewired for alarm services or not. If so, you could find an avenue to ask about other things. My sister and her husband just bought a new house outside of Dallas and it is coming prewired for RG6, wired alarm and CAT-6 ethernet. On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 4:45 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
My relative is buying a new house is a typical American surbuban tract housing development. Yep, I'm the extended family I.T. consultant.
The marketing brochure calls it "custom home" but he only gets to talk to the developer's "design consultants", i.e. sales people. The developer has a sales center and pre-set upsell options, kitchen countertop choices, carpeting, etc. He never talks to the architect, general contractor, electricians or construction crew.
He paid for a finished basement option, which means most of the basement will have sheetrock finished walls. So the first cable, fiber or telephone utility will be cutting holes in the new sheetrock. I was trying to avoid needing to cut brand-new sheetrock or fishing wire through walls.
The design consultant's answer for everything was 5G ... 5G ... 5G. No more ugly boxes on the house, everything will be wireless. There is a special deal if he signed up for 5G wireless service before his house was finished.
For something "no one ever asks about," the design consultant seemed to have a lot of prepared sales pitches.
Acting like a dumb homebuyer over the Thanksgiving weekend I did notice the model home had a demarc box on the garage outside wall. The garage in the model home is used as the builder's office, so it may not be how the built homes are setup.
A new version of ANSI/TIA-570 (residential wiring standard) is due this year. In the old days, a minimum of one wired telephone outlet was required. I was just wondering if there was new 'standard' for demarcs in new residential construction. But it sounds like there isn't. Draping cables around the sides of the house.
On Tue, 28 Nov 2023, Stan Barber wrote:
That being said, I would ask if the home is being prewired for alarm services or not. If so, you could find an avenue to ask about other things. My sister and her husband just bought a new house outside of Dallas and it is coming prewired for RG6, wired alarm and CAT-6 ethernet.
Thanks for the suggestion. I suspect the builder will try to sell a wireless alarm system instead, but I will suggest my relative ask the design consultants. During my "dumb homebuyer" Thanksgiving tour, I found out the $1,000 smurf tube option was a 5-foot tube (2-inch) from the TV mounting box above the fireplace mantel to the side of the fireplace for a media console for a hdmi cable. On the other hand, the sales person was very proud that the garage is "EV-Ready." Which is how I found out the garage was their office, not on the tour.
participants (15)
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Andy Ringsmuth -
Brandon Martin -
Christopher Hawker -
Eric Kuhnke -
Gary Buhrmaster -
Jay Hennigan -
Jay R. Ashworth -
Josh Luthman -
Justin Streiner -
Martin Hannigan -
Mike Hammett -
Owen DeLong -
owen＠Delong.com
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Sean Donelan -
Stan Barber