Boeing's Connexion announcement
I just got email that some of you may have also received, talking about the end of the service, reasons, etc. The interesting piece is that the service will be free from now through Dec 31 when they turn off the system. Their homepage has a new link so you can sign up in advance, and then use the system when you fly on any equipped airline free. http://www.connexionbyboeing.com/ They say that there is currently no suitor. It sure would be nice if there was one. Maybe the Connexion folks on the list could tell us what is needed to make it work on the network side - I'm sure we have enough resources between us to handle that. And there are a number of aircraft that already have the equipment... /rlj
Hello; On Oct 13, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Rodney Joffe wrote:
I just got email that some of you may have also received, talking about the end of the service, reasons, etc.
The interesting piece is that the service will be free from now through Dec 31 when they turn off the system. Their homepage has a new link so you can sign up in advance, and then use the system when you fly on any equipped airline free.
http://www.connexionbyboeing.com/
They say that there is currently no suitor.
It sure would be nice if there was one. Maybe the Connexion folks on the list could tell us what is needed to make it work on the network side - I'm sure we have enough resources between us to handle that. And there are a number of aircraft that already have the equipment...
You will need sufficient resources to pay for the satellite transponder channels - 14 in all IIRC (or get the service from elsewhere). These are all being given back. Regards Marshall
/rlj
On Oct 13, 2006, at 1:52 PM, Rodney Joffe wrote:
Maybe the Connexion folks on the list could tell us what is needed to make it work on the network side - I'm sure we have enough resources between us to handle that. And there are a number of aircraft that already have the equipment...
The biggest obstacles to success for a service of this type are a) high cost and b) the lack of AC power throughout most commercial airliners. Some folks are willing to put up with a), but not for just a couple of hours due to b). Until AC power is prevalent throughout the cabins of commercial airliners, it's unclear whether such a service will attract sufficient subscribers to become economically viable, IMHO. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@cisco.com> // 408.527.6376 voice Any information security mechanism, process, or procedure which can be consistently defeated by the successful application of a single class of attacks must be considered fatally flawed. -- The Lucy Van Pelt Principle of Secure Systems Design
On Oct 14, 2006, at 2:13 AM, Roland Dobbins wrote:
On Oct 13, 2006, at 1:52 PM, Rodney Joffe wrote:
Maybe the Connexion folks on the list could tell us what is needed to make it work on the network side - I'm sure we have enough resources between us to handle that. And there are a number of aircraft that already have the equipment...
The biggest obstacles to success for a service of this type are a) high cost and b) the lack of AC power throughout most commercial airliners. Some folks are willing to put up with a), but not for just a couple of hours due to b).
Until AC power is prevalent throughout the cabins of commercial airliners, it's unclear whether such a service will attract sufficient subscribers to become economically viable, IMHO.
I disagree. Seat power is ubiquitous on some airlines (e.g. American), and available in all but coach on others (e.g. Virgin, Luftansa). It's useful and requested enough that Virgin actually uses it as a reason to fly "premium economy" (or whatever they call it). iGo's & their cousins are available at every major airport, as well as most electronics & computer shops, and sell millions upon millions per year. Add to that laptops with 5 & 7 hour life spans becoming more common, and even seat power is not as necessary. AC power is not required. Bigger seats might be. :) -- TTFN, patrick P.S. I used it for > 4 hours on Luftansa in coach, without seat power. And would happily pay $27.95, perhaps more, to use it again.
On Oct 14, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
Add to that laptops with 5 & 7 hour life spans becoming more common, and even seat power is not as necessary.
Actually, seat power isn't yet truly ubiquitous on American, though it's becoming more common in their coach cabins over time (I fly American more than any other airline). Increased battery life will help, although folks often won't be entering the aircraft with fully-charged batteries, and it's going to be a long time before the majority of laptops in use have some sort of longer-life battery capacity. And coach is where most people fly. Many business travelers are forced to fly coach by their travel departments unless/until they acquire enough frequent-flyer miles to occasionally upgrade, or pay out of pocket. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@cisco.com> // 408.527.6376 voice Any information security mechanism, process, or procedure which can be consistently defeated by the successful application of a single class of attacks must be considered fatally flawed. -- The Lucy Van Pelt Principle of Secure Systems Design
patrick,
I disagree.
i disagree with your disagreement.
Seat power is ubiquitous on some airlines (e.g. American), and available in all but coach on others (e.g. Virgin, Luftansa). It's
"all but coach"? seriously? hilarious. "democracy is available to all but the majority" "wealth is available for all but the middle class and poor" come on. seat power is not ubiquitous on american, either. it's on every 3rd seat or some nonense and there's no way to figure out whether you are in such a seat. i identified this early on as one of th emajor factors causing this service to fail.
AC power is not required. Bigger seats might be. :)
bigger seats may not be required. ac power is.
P.S. I used it for > 4 hours on Luftansa in coach, without seat power. And would happily pay $27.95, perhaps more, to use it again.
/me too. the price is well-worth it. t.
On Oct 14, 2006, at 9:04 PM, Todd Underwood wrote:
I disagree.
i disagree with your disagreement.
You are welcome to your opinion.
Seat power is ubiquitous on some airlines (e.g. American), and available in all but coach on others (e.g. Virgin, Luftansa). It's
"all but coach"? seriously? hilarious.
"democracy is available to all but the majority"
"wealth is available for all but the middle class and poor"
come on.
In Virgin, BA, etc., there are frequently -four- classes on an international flight. You can get "premium economy" just by having status on some airlines, or buying a full-fare coach ticket on others (e.g. BA). It really ain't that hard, or expensive. Especially for biz travelers who can't always make plans a month in advance. That said, yeah, I mostly fly coach.
seat power is not ubiquitous on american, either. it's on every 3rd seat or some nonense and there's no way to figure out whether you are in such a seat.
i identified this early on as one of th emajor factors causing this service to fail.
Interestingly, I fly over 50K miles per year on AA on average and have very, very rarely not had seat power. Guess I've been lucky. BTW: Jet Blue, whom I love otherwise, says they will not install seat power. Something about the cabling for the TV. They were very nice about my request, but very firm about not having any plans for seat power any time in the future. I guess TVs make more money than laptops.
AC power is not required. Bigger seats might be. :)
bigger seats may not be required. ac power is.
This is where we disagree. My G4 PB gives me 4 hours of use with a new batter, and over 2 hours with a 3 year old battery. I hear the new Intel ones give 5+ hours. How much do you need? SJC <-> IAD is only 5/6 hours, and you can't use your laptop the whole time (take off, landing, snacks, toilet breaks, etc.). However, that same 12" PB (not a large laptop by any definition) on Luftansa is close unusable in coach if the person in front of you leans back. I had to contort pretty horribly to use it. (Which I did, 'cause I -had- to send e-mail from the plane. :) Lack of seat power was not an issue, I just had two batteries. And this was BOS -
MUC, which ain't a short flight.
Using a 15" or larger laptop on that flight is essentially unthinkable. I could not have opened the laptop enough to see the screen. During meals, the flight attendants made everyone sit up, otherwise the people behind them wouldn't have been able to eat. Yes, it was that bad. Summary: Bigger seats are required, seat power may not be. Maybe this is how they get you to upgrade so you can use seat power. :)
P.S. I used it for > 4 hours on Luftansa in coach, without seat power. And would happily pay $27.95, perhaps more, to use it again.
/me too. the price is well-worth it.
At least we agree on something. -- TTFN, patrick
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
e-mail from the plane. :) Lack of seat power was not an issue, I just had two batteries. And this was BOS -> MUC, which ain't a short flight.
It's quite likely that on a grander scale of things, it's better economy that the few people who want to use their laptop the whole flight, do get two batteries, than doing the investment of putting AC power in all seats. Otoh, more batteries on planes increases the risk of fire due to exploding batteries happening in the plane :P -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any, let alone all of the seats. Seat power that works with the iGo system is DC and is not conventional 110 AC. Owen On Oct 15, 2006, at 3:39 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
e-mail from the plane. :) Lack of seat power was not an issue, I just had two batteries. And this was BOS -> MUC, which ain't a short flight.
It's quite likely that on a grander scale of things, it's better economy that the few people who want to use their laptop the whole flight, do get two batteries, than doing the investment of putting AC power in all seats.
Otoh, more batteries on planes increases the risk of fire due to exploding batteries happening in the plane :P
-- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
Owen DeLong wrote:
This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any, let alone all of the seats. Seat power that works with the iGo system is DC and is not conventional 110 AC.
Is this your final answer? I've used AC power in lufthansa business class. Makes the 8 or 9 hour trip back to the states much more interesting if you can have internet via connexion the whole way. /vijay
I, too, have used AC power on long flights, IIRC on Virgin Upper Class. On Oct 15, 2006, at 11:29 AM, vijay gill wrote:
Owen DeLong wrote:
This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any, let alone all of the seats. Seat power that works with the iGo system is DC and is not conventional 110 AC.
Is this your final answer? I've used AC power in lufthansa business class. Makes the 8 or 9 hour trip back to the states much more interesting if you can have internet via connexion the whole way.
/vijay
Regards Marshall
Fearghas McKay <fm-lists@st-kilda.org> writes:
At 11:29 -0400 15/10/06, vijay gill wrote:
Is this your final answer? I've used AC power in lufthansa business class. Makes the 8 or 9 hour trip back to the states much more
ditto KLM Business class in a 777.
ditto NW in a 74. ---rob
This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any, let alone all of the seats. Seat power that works with the iGo system is DC and is not conventional 110 AC.
Perhaps I was hallucinating, but when I flew from Auckland to LAX on Air New Zealand earlier this year, I had a 110V outlet into which I plugged my laptop's regular power brick. The most popular seat power is still the EmPower which needs an iGo or other special adapter, but you'll increasingly find DC 12V shaped like a car's cigar lighter socket and AC 110V with a receptacle that takes most common shapes of AC power plugs. You can find a reasonable overview here: http://www.seatguru.com/articles/in-seat_laptop_power.php In with the seat diagrams elsewhere on the site, it tells you what kind of power each type of plane has and where the outlets are. Too bad we're not likely to have Internet access to go along with them. R's, John
On Sun, Oct 15, 2006 at 08:14:48AM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:
This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any, let alone all of the seats. Seat power that works with the iGo system is DC and is not conventional 110 AC.
On my flights to Asia (from seattle) I tend to have power available. http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Northwest_Airlines/Northwest_Airlines_Airbu... I usually just play the in-flight trivia game for the 9hr flight though. It does represent there being power available. - Jared -- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from jared@puck.nether.net clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Owen DeLong wrote: > This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any, let alone > all of the seats. Wrong. It's standard on Air New Zealand, and it's been on Singapore Air seats I've had as well. -Bill
Owen DeLong wrote:
This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any, let alone all of the seats. Seat power that works with the iGo system is DC and is not conventional 110 AC.
Into which the laptop user plugs the inverter he has in his carry-on that he bought for use in the rental car, producing 115vac (240 if from Europe). Into this he plugs the laptop SMPS, into which he plugs the laptop. Horribly inefficient, but that's the way Joe Sixpack does it. He probably doesn't have much of a choice. It's a pity that laptop makers don't either design their machines to operate on a nominal 13.8 VDC or sell a relatively inexpensive and commonly available 13.8-to-[whatever DC voltage the laptop uses on whatever oddball connector they use that seems to be unique to that make and model and likely serial number and unavailable anywhere]. -- Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Administration - jay@west.net NetLojix Communications, Inc. - http://www.netlojix.com/ WestNet: Connecting you to the planet. 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV
> It's a pity that laptop makers don't either design their machines to > operate on a nominal 13.8 VDC or sell a relatively inexpensive and > commonly available 13.8-to-[whatever DC voltage the laptop uses on > whatever oddball connector they use that seems to be unique to that make > and model and likely serial number and unavailable anywhere]. Uh, Apple laptops plug into EmPower without transformers. -Bill
On Oct 15, 2006, at 9:15 AM, Bill Woodcock wrote:
Uh, Apple laptops plug into EmPower without transformers.
Not the new MacBooks and MacBook Pros - Apple changed the connector, and so far have apparently refused to license it to third parties, nor have they come out with an airline power adaptor of their own. So, on the rare occasions I find DC in-flight power available, I use an AC inverter with the airline power adaptor and then plug my MacBook's AC adaptor into that. As others have indicated, AC is in fact available on Lufthansa in business class and higher. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@cisco.com> // 408.527.6376 voice Any information security mechanism, process, or procedure which can be consistently defeated by the successful application of a single class of attacks must be considered fatally flawed. -- The Lucy Van Pelt Principle of Secure Systems Design
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Roland Dobbins wrote: > Not the new MacBooks and MacBook Pros - Apple changed the connector, and > so far have apparently refused to license it to third parties, nor have > they come out with an airline power adaptor of their own. While those are both true, neither negates my statement that Apple laptops (meaning all of them) can run from native EmPower voltage. No transformer is required, only a correct cable. http://www.woodynet.net/pics/index.php?currentDir=photos/2006/06.03-EmPower-... Alec Peterson was reporting success with one of these, as well: http://www.mikegyver.com/ -Bill
Once upon a time, Jay Hennigan <jay@west.net> said:
Into which the laptop user plugs the inverter he has in his carry-on that he bought for use in the rental car, producing 115vac (240 if from Europe). Into this he plugs the laptop SMPS, into which he plugs the laptop. Horribly inefficient, but that's the way Joe Sixpack does it. He probably doesn't have much of a choice.
My Thinkpad power brick has both AC and DC (car/airline) power cables. -- Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net> Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Owen DeLong wrote:
This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any, let alone all of the seats. Seat power that works with the iGo system is DC and is not conventional 110 AC.
Arnic 628 is a 16 volt dc, maximum 100 watts per seat, dc conversion to 15 volts (aircraft power bus is 400hz 110volt ac) and from 15 to whatever your laptop requires put the effective power limit at about 75 watts The approach of the airlines and the faa is to limit the number of outlets and their variety based on the load that the system can support. most in-service aircraft simply aren't generating enough power to deliver it to every seat in the plane.
Owen
On Oct 15, 2006, at 3:39 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
e-mail from the plane. :) Lack of seat power was not an issue, I just had two batteries. And this was BOS -> MUC, which ain't a short flight.
It's quite likely that on a grander scale of things, it's better economy that the few people who want to use their laptop the whole flight, do get two batteries, than doing the investment of putting AC power in all seats.
Otoh, more batteries on planes increases the risk of fire due to exploding batteries happening in the plane :P
--Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Joel Jaeggli Unix Consulting joelja@uoregon.edu GPG Key Fingerprint: 5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2
Excerpts from Owen DeLong on Sun, Oct 15, 2006 08:14:48AM -0700:
This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any
In addition to all of the offered AC services others have mentioned, some planes have power outlets for vacuum cleaners, typically behind a small panel next to a door.
In addition to all of the offered AC services others have mentioned, some planes have power outlets for vacuum cleaners, typically behind a small panel next to a door.
Definitely don¹t use these hoover power supplies, UK train users will see these with a warning tag due to the excessive outgoing voltage you might get to your laptop. Colin
In article <C1584DC1.2DB69%colinj@mx5.org.uk>, Colin Johnston <colinj@mx5.org.uk> writes
In addition to all of the offered AC services others have mentioned, some planes have power outlets for vacuum cleaners, typically behind a small panel next to a door.
Definitely don¹t use these hoover power supplies, UK train users will see these with a warning tag due to the excessive outgoing voltage you might get to your laptop.
Although many UK trains that have been manufactured or refurbished in the last few years have clean AC sockets next to every pair of seats (even in coach). And some also have Wifi (to get a little closer on-topic). -- Roland Perry
Scott W Brim wrote:
Excerpts from Owen DeLong on Sun, Oct 15, 2006 08:14:48AM -0700:
This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any
In addition to all of the offered AC services others have mentioned, some planes have power outlets for vacuum cleaners, typically behind a small panel next to a door.
ISTR, these AC sockets are "airplane flavour" 115VAC @ 400Hz. Use at your own peril, though I know at least one person who did run a Powerbook off one, and it survived (though I'm told that the PSU ran quite hot). Mike
In addition to all of the offered AC services others have mentioned, some planes have power outlets for vacuum cleaners, typically behind a small panel next to a door.
ISTR, these AC sockets are "airplane flavour" 115VAC @ 400Hz.
No. it's 60 Hz. See this picture of one of the outlets. http://www.flickr.com/photos/joi/25645286/ and this page from Qantas web site http://www.qantas.com.au/info/flying/inTheAir/communications Don't you think that airlines would be smart enough not to install power outlets that would destroy the equipment that the customers plug into them?
On Oct 15, 2006, at 8:21 PM, John Levine wrote:
In addition to all of the offered AC services others have mentioned, some planes have power outlets for vacuum cleaners, typically behind a small panel next to a door.
ISTR, these AC sockets are "airplane flavour" 115VAC @ 400Hz.
No. it's 60 Hz. See this picture of one of the outlets.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joi/25645286/
and this page from Qantas web site
http://www.qantas.com.au/info/flying/inTheAir/communications
Don't you think that airlines would be smart enough not to install power outlets that would destroy the equipment that the customers plug into them?
There are two different things that are being talked about here. If your seat has an obviously-meant-for-customer-use outlet, it's definitely going to be 60Hz. There are other outlets that look like regular North American outlets, but hidden behind an access panel. Usually on the floor or near a door, with no markings on the outside as to what they're for. These *are* 400Hz, and are meant for support crew to clean the aircraft with, maintenance tools, etc. I just asked a flight attendant friend of mine about them, and she says they're present on many of the aircraft she's worked on. Initially the flight crew would look the other way when a traveller would plug their laptop in, but with a "that might fry your laptop" warning if they were feeling especially generous. Not too long ago though, they were instructed to aggressively stop people from using the outlets. Partially out of fear that someone's power supply/ battery would fail in some spectacular way at 30,000 feet, and partially because they have a lesser known secondary use. While she's never seen any of it in use, there are medical devices designed to be able to use these outlets in an emergency or for a critically ill patient being transported. They're specially designed to accept 400Hz power, and draw more power than the seat provided passenger outlets. If you somehow popped the breaker for the 400Hz maintenance outlet, several bad things happen... They're required to reset the breaker, which is located in a very inconvenient place. Not only can they not take off if the alarm showing that this breaker is tripped is active, but there's some very slight chance that you've just broken the power feed that might be needed in an emergency. She says she's only heard of one person breaking their laptop (or power supply, she wasn't sure) from trying to use one of those outlets with dozens more cases of seeing people using them without problem, but at least on her airline she's not allowed to look the other way if she sees anyone trying to use them anymore. She recalls at least one fight where they were delayed at the gate waiting for someone to go reset the breaker under the cabin floor to restore power to it, even though they had nobody onboard with a device that was supposed to be used in it.
Thus spake "Kevin Day" <toasty@dragondata.com>
There are two different things that are being talked about here. If your seat has an obviously-meant-for-customer-use outlet, it's definitely going to be 60Hz.
... or DC.
There are other outlets that look like regular North American outlets, but hidden behind an access panel. Usually on the floor or near a door, with no markings on the outside as to what they're for. These *are* 400Hz, and are meant for support crew to clean the aircraft with, maintenance tools, etc.
I've seen many outlets on planes marked 400Hz, usually in the galleys. I've never seen one that a customer could use without running an extension cord down the aisle, though. I agree that power isn't as critical on board as the network access; my laptop battery lasts about 6hrs, and I've got a second one in my bag I keep charged just in case. Many airports provide outlets at the gates you can use to charge phones and laptops before takeoff, and for non-transoceanic flights that's good enough for virtually everyone these days. My problem with Connexion was that it's (a) too pricey for my company's expense rules, and (b) not available on enough planes to factor into my travel plans anyways. I don't doubt that it's worth the $27.95/flight, but my company allows a max of $10.00 for internet access. Even if I could somehow convince the trolls in accounting to accept triple the standard hotspot rate because it's on a plane, the IRS requires an original receipt for any expenses over $25 and Connexion doesn't provide one. No dice. Three dollars cheaper and I'd use it regularly; $9.95 and I'd use it every single flight. Instead, I use my company's corporate account at the departure airport hotspot to grab all my mail, work on it during the flight, and then use the hotspot at the other end to send it all when I land. That's good enough for a 2-5hr flight, and it doesn't get me in trouble with accounting. S Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
On Oct 15, 2006, at 10:52 PM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
Even if I could somehow convince the trolls in accounting to accept triple the standard hotspot rate because it's on a plane, the IRS requires an original receipt for any expenses over $25 and Connexion doesn't provide one.
So, given that some of us aren't required to submit original receipts for things like rental cars etc, I think you might want to ask a good accountant to check into the veracity of that statement and try to discern between a company's accounting troll policy and actual law. Credit card transaction records are sufficient for some expenses (except hotels), far above $25. Best regards, Christian
The actual law is insanely vague and requires "proof and a written record". The court system and IRS have been all over the map about what constitutes proof vs. just a written record, and, as such, accounting trolls have developed a myriad of different policies. However, I think we have wandered far afield from the operational portion of this topic. Owen
On Oct 15, 2006, at 9:09 PM, Christian Kuhtz wrote:
Credit card transaction records are sufficient for some expenses (except hotels), far above $25.
Many portals for hotspot services provide an HTML splash page with the amount paid - one can save that to one's hard drive and print it out later. And, of course, this thread is now irretrievably off-topic, heh. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@cisco.com> // 408.527.6376 voice Any information security mechanism, process, or procedure which can be consistently defeated by the successful application of a single class of attacks must be considered fatally flawed. -- The Lucy Van Pelt Principle of Secure Systems Design
What time does the 4:20 flight take off? On 16 Oct 2006 01:21:12 -0000, John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
In addition to all of the offered AC services others have mentioned, some planes have power outlets for vacuum cleaners, typically behind a small panel next to a door.
ISTR, these AC sockets are "airplane flavour" 115VAC @ 400Hz.
No. it's 60 Hz. See this picture of one of the outlets.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joi/25645286/
and this page from Qantas web site
http://www.qantas.com.au/info/flying/inTheAir/communications
Don't you think that airlines would be smart enough not to install power outlets that would destroy the equipment that the customers plug into them?
John Levine wrote:
In addition to all of the offered AC services others have mentioned, some planes have power outlets for vacuum cleaners, typically behind a small panel next to a door. ISTR, these AC sockets are "airplane flavour" 115VAC @ 400Hz.
No. it's 60 Hz. See this picture of one of the outlets.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joi/25645286/
and this page from Qantas web site
http://www.qantas.com.au/info/flying/inTheAir/communications
Don't you think that airlines would be smart enough not to install power outlets that would destroy the equipment that the customers plug into them?
I don't think the earlier poster was referring to the sockets you as a member of the travelling public are invited to use - i.e. the ones which are in your seat and labelled. Those *are* converted to 110V @ 60Hz. These are occasional sockets, discreetly mounted at floor level, usually just forward of a door, often have a flip-up cover, for plugging in bits of airline equipment. Mike
and you will NEVER see this service again until there is a monetary incenctive to offer said service. So.. why is this still a discussion? On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Owen DeLong wrote:
This may be a nit, but, you will _NEVER_ see AC power at any, let alone all of the seats. Seat power that works with the iGo system is DC and is not conventional 110 AC.
Owen
On Oct 15, 2006, at 3:39 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
e-mail from the plane. :) Lack of seat power was not an issue, I just had two batteries. And this was BOS -> MUC, which ain't a short flight.
It's quite likely that on a grander scale of things, it's better economy that the few people who want to use their laptop the whole flight, do get two batteries, than doing the investment of putting AC power in all seats.
Otoh, more batteries on planes increases the risk of fire due to exploding batteries happening in the plane :P
-- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
/rf
On Oct 15, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Rich Fulton wrote:
and you will NEVER see this service again until there is a monetary incenctive to offer said service. So.. why is this still a discussion?
I seem to recall someone (Rodney?) saying it was already generating positive cash flow on "high-tech-city-to-high-tech-city" routes, and mentioning HK & Seattle. Seem to me supporting Internet access is on topic. (Although I admit things like seat-power might be considered a bit too tangential. :) -- TTFN, patrick
patrick, all, On Sun, Oct 15, 2006 at 04:56:34AM -0400, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
AC power is not required. Bigger seats might be. :)
bigger seats may not be required. ac power is.
However, that same 12" PB (not a large laptop by any definition) on Luftansa is close unusable in coach if the person in front of you leans back. I had to contort pretty horribly to use it. (Which I did, 'cause I -had- to send e-mail from the plane. :) Lack of seat power was not an issue, I just had two batteries. And this was BOS -
MUC, which ain't a short flight.
Using a 15" or larger laptop on that flight is essentially unthinkable. I could not have opened the laptop enough to see the screen. During meals, the flight attendants made everyone sit up, otherwise the people behind them wouldn't have been able to eat. Yes, it was that bad.
i managed to post: http://www.renesys.com/blog/2006/04/tracking_plane_flight_on_inter.shtml with a 15" thinkpad from coach on lufthansa. so that includes the ssh session to screen to coorindate with coworkers, the several browsers, the emacs window and all the typing. it's not a short post, it has pictures that had to be screencaptured (or grabbed from the boeing nanog preso, respectively), but it wasn't overly difficult. maybe i'm just more of a contorionist than most. the issue of power is the same, i think as the even bigger issue of consistency/predictability which is what rodney was trying to point out, i think. people want to know that they're going to be able to use the service and they want to know this in advance. since no airline rolled it out on every single flight and no airline gave advance notice to passengers which flights would have the service, it was impossible to plan on being able to use it. that does two things: 1) it reduces the value of the service since it now becomes a happy coincidence rather than a planned part of the work day; 2) it makes it less likely that everyone will already have a full charge on their laptop batteries. having power at every seat would be easy and they should just do it. t _____________________________________________________________________ todd underwood +1 603 643 9300 x101 renesys corporation chief of operations & security todd@renesys.com http://www.renesys.com/blog/todd.shtml
I wrote a 800 word article on a 15" Powerbook in Singapore Airlines economy class last year, and filed it via Connexion..and that was quite neck-yanking enough. On 10/15/06, Todd Underwood <todd-nanog@renesys.com> wrote:
patrick, all,
On Sun, Oct 15, 2006 at 04:56:34AM -0400, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
AC power is not required. Bigger seats might be. :)
bigger seats may not be required. ac power is.
However, that same 12" PB (not a large laptop by any definition) on Luftansa is close unusable in coach if the person in front of you leans back. I had to contort pretty horribly to use it. (Which I did, 'cause I -had- to send e-mail from the plane. :) Lack of seat power was not an issue, I just had two batteries. And this was BOS -
MUC, which ain't a short flight.
Using a 15" or larger laptop on that flight is essentially unthinkable. I could not have opened the laptop enough to see the screen. During meals, the flight attendants made everyone sit up, otherwise the people behind them wouldn't have been able to eat. Yes, it was that bad.
i managed to post:
http://www.renesys.com/blog/2006/04/tracking_plane_flight_on_inter.shtml
with a 15" thinkpad from coach on lufthansa.
so that includes the ssh session to screen to coorindate with coworkers, the several browsers, the emacs window and all the typing. it's not a short post, it has pictures that had to be screencaptured (or grabbed from the boeing nanog preso, respectively), but it wasn't overly difficult. maybe i'm just more of a contorionist than most.
the issue of power is the same, i think as the even bigger issue of consistency/predictability which is what rodney was trying to point out, i think. people want to know that they're going to be able to use the service and they want to know this in advance. since no airline rolled it out on every single flight and no airline gave advance notice to passengers which flights would have the service, it was impossible to plan on being able to use it. that does two things: 1) it reduces the value of the service since it now becomes a happy coincidence rather than a planned part of the work day; 2) it makes it less likely that everyone will already have a full charge on their laptop batteries.
having power at every seat would be easy and they should just do it.
t
_____________________________________________________________________ todd underwood +1 603 643 9300 x101 renesys corporation chief of operations & security todd@renesys.com http://www.renesys.com/blog/todd.shtml
On Oct 14, 2006, at 2:13 AM, Roland Dobbins wrote:
On Oct 13, 2006, at 1:52 PM, Rodney Joffe wrote:
Maybe the Connexion folks on the list could tell us what is needed to make it work on the network side - I'm sure we have enough resources between us to handle that. And there are a number of aircraft that already have the equipment...
The biggest obstacles to success for a service of this type are a) high cost and b) the lack of AC power throughout most commercial airliners. Some folks are willing to put up with a), but not for just a couple of hours due to b).
Until AC power is prevalent throughout the cabins of commercial airliners, it's unclear whether such a service will attract sufficient subscribers to become economically viable, IMHO.
Sorry, I must be missing something here. What prevents you from equipping EmPower equipped planes with the service? Ubiquity isn't required to add this to those aircraft that have the facilities. It's not like an entire fleet today has the same features across all planes as it stands today. Such a service would probably only make sense for transcon U.S. flights, where the lack of connectivity can be noticed. And on those routes (at least the airline that I fly) I have about half a dozen or so EmPowered choices each day between, say, Atlanta and Los Angeles. If there is demand, somebody will find a way. Best regards, Christian
On Oct 14, 2006, at 5:32 PM, Christian Kuhtz wrote:
Such a service would probably only make sense for transcon U.S. flights, where the lack of connectivity can be noticed. And on those routes (at least the airline that I fly) I have about half a dozen or so EmPowered choices each day between, say, Atlanta and Los Angeles.
I think a hotspot-like monthly pass option for flights of any duration would receive strong uptake, were the service ubiquitous, which will require near-universal availability of power in economy- class cabins, IMHO. Understand, this is all just my personal opinion; I would -love- for this service to be economically viable so that I could use it. I just believe that there are certain preconditions which must be met for it to succeed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@cisco.com> // 408.527.6376 voice Any information security mechanism, process, or procedure which can be consistently defeated by the successful application of a single class of attacks must be considered fatally flawed. -- The Lucy Van Pelt Principle of Secure Systems Design
On Oct 14, 2006, at 8:36 PM, Roland Dobbins wrote:
On Oct 14, 2006, at 5:32 PM, Christian Kuhtz wrote:
Such a service would probably only make sense for transcon U.S. flights, where the lack of connectivity can be noticed. And on those routes (at least the airline that I fly) I have about half a dozen or so EmPowered choices each day between, say, Atlanta and Los Angeles.
I think a hotspot-like monthly pass option for flights of any duration would receive strong uptake, were the service ubiquitous, which will require near-universal availability of power in economy- class cabins, IMHO.
All that is needed is for there to be coverage in economy cabins equipped with EmPower, such as transcon 767-400 and 777.
participants (26)
-
Alexander Harrowell -
Bill Woodcock -
Chris Adams -
Christian Kuhtz -
Colin Johnston -
Fearghas McKay -
Jared Mauch -
Jay Hennigan -
Joel Jaeggli -
John Levine -
Kevin Day -
Marshall Eubanks -
micky coughes -
Mikael Abrahamsson -
Mike Hughes -
Owen DeLong -
Patrick W. Gilmore -
Rich Fulton -
Robert E.Seastrom -
Rodney Joffe -
Roland Dobbins -
Roland Perry -
Scott W Brim -
Stephen Sprunk -
Todd Underwood -
vijay gill