ICANN response request from the Ukraine regarding various DNS interventions – https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/marby-to-fedorov-02mar2... FYI, /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers On 2 Mar 2022, at 1:01 AM, John Curran <jcurran@arin.net<mailto:jcurran@arin.net>> wrote: Regarding the portion of the request to the RIPE NCC to withdraw the relevant Russia registered IP address blocks, it appears that the RIPE NCC has reiterated their position on such disputes - https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/announcements/ripe-ncc-executive-boar... FYI, /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers On 1 Mar 2022, at 3:25 AM, Ryan Hamel <administrator@rkhtech.org<mailto:administrator@rkhtech.org>> wrote: It’s already spread to the news - https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/ukraine-icann-russia-int... Ryan From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org>> On Behalf Of George Herbert Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2022 12:17 AM To: Nanog <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: Ukraine request yikes Posted by Bill Woodcock on Twitter… https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500?s=21 https://pastebin.com/DLbmYahS Ukraine (I think I read as) want ICANN to turn root nameservers off, revoke address delegations, and turn off TLDs for Russia. Seems… instability creating… -george Sent from my iPhone

Yep, I completely agree. I also think if they had done anything else, it would have been a reputation-ending. On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 8:19 AM Jorge Amodio <jmamodio@gmail.com> wrote:

I believe it is a proper response, besides that it is not right for ICANN to get in the middle of this type of conflict, in situations like this, increasing the flow of real information counters the flow of misinformation.

-J

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:05 AM John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:

...

ICANN response request from the Ukraine regarding various DNS interventions – https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/marby-to-fedorov-02mar2...

FYI, /John

John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers

On 2 Mar 2022, at 1:01 AM, John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:

Regarding the portion of the request to the RIPE NCC to withdraw the relevant Russia registered IP address blocks, it appears that the RIPE NCC has reiterated their position on such disputes -

https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/announcements/ripe-ncc-executive-boar...

FYI, /John

John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers

On 1 Mar 2022, at 3:25 AM, Ryan Hamel <administrator@rkhtech.org> wrote:

It’s already spread to the news - https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/ukraine-icann-russia-int...

Ryan

*From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> *On Behalf Of *George Herbert *Sent:* Tuesday, March 1, 2022 12:17 AM *To:* Nanog <nanog@nanog.org> *Subject:* Ukraine request yikes

Posted by Bill Woodcock on Twitter… https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500?s=21

https://pastebin.com/DLbmYahS

Ukraine (I think I read as) want ICANN to turn root nameservers off, revoke address delegations, and turn off TLDs for Russia.

Seems… instability creating…

-george Sent from my iPhone

-- Sincerely, Jason W Kuehl Cell 920-419-8983 jason.w.kuehl@gmail.com

https://www.icrc.org/en Convention (V) respecting the Rights and Duties of Neutral Powers and Persons in Case of War on Land. The Hague, 18 October 1907. CHAPTER I : THE RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF NEUTRAL POWERS - ART. 8. Art. 8. A neutral Power is not called upon to forbid or restrict the use on behalf of the belligerents of telegraph or telephone cables or of wireless telegraphy apparatus belonging to it or to companies or private individuals. CHAPTER I : THE RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF NEUTRAL POWERS - ART. 9. Art. 9. Every measure of restriction or prohibition taken by a neutral Power in regard to the matters referred to in Articles 7 and 8 must be impartially applied by it to both belligerents. A neutral Power must see to the same obligation being observed by companies or private individuals owning telegraph or telephone cables or wireless telegraphy apparatus. [not an international relations lawyer]

I concur, this is an extremely dangerous slippery slope that ICANN should refrain. There’s the possibility for misfires, misattribution and miscalculation that could backfire which is extremely concerning. — regards, /vrode

On Mar 1, 2022, at 00:56, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:



...

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 12:19 AM George Herbert <george.herbert@gmail.com> wrote: Posted by Bill Woodcock on Twitter… https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500?s=21

https://pastebin.com/DLbmYahS

Ukraine (I think I read as) want ICANN to turn root nameservers off, revoke address delegations, and turn off TLDs for Russia.

Seems… instability creating…

-george

Information sharing should increase during wartime, not decrease.

Restricting information is more often the playbook of authoritarian regimes, and not something we should generally support.

Besides, GhostWriter is based out of Belarus, not Russia proper. ^_^; https://www.wired.com/story/ghostwriter-hackers-belarus-russia-misinformatio...

Matt

Information sharing should increase on the ATTACKED side... it should DECREASE and be cut off on the non-provoked attacker's side. On 3/1/22 3:53 AM, Matthew Petach wrote:

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 12:19 AM George Herbert <george.herbert@gmail.com <mailto:george.herbert@gmail.com>> wrote:

Posted by Bill Woodcock on Twitter… https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500?s=21

https://pastebin.com/DLbmYahS

Ukraine (I think I read as) want ICANN to turn root nameservers off, revoke address delegations, and turn off TLDs for Russia.

Seems… instability creating…

-george

Information sharing should increase during wartime, not decrease.

Restricting information is more often the playbook of authoritarian regimes, and not something we should generally support.

Besides, GhostWriter is based out of Belarus, not Russia proper.  ^_^; https://www.wired.com/story/ghostwriter-hackers-belarus-russia-misinformatio...

Matt

Anybody remember the days when: - News of the USSR's fall was leaking out over USENET? - Folks were live posting from gas-proofed rooms in Israel, during one of the wars? There is a reason that the US Government was developing and promulgating things like TOR, for a while.  Kind of useless if we cut the lines of communication.  (Of course, removing DNS records doesn't effect connectivity.) Miles Fidelman Matt Hoppes wrote:

Information sharing should increase on the ATTACKED side... it should DECREASE and be cut off on the non-provoked attacker's side.

On 3/1/22 3:53 AM, Matthew Petach wrote:

...

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 12:19 AM George Herbert <george.herbert@gmail.com <mailto:george.herbert@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Posted by Bill Woodcock on Twitter… https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500?s=21

    https://pastebin.com/DLbmYahS

    Ukraine (I think I read as) want ICANN to turn root nameservers off,     revoke address delegations, and turn off TLDs for Russia.

    Seems… instability creating…

    -george

Information sharing should increase during wartime, not decrease.

Restricting information is more often the playbook of authoritarian regimes, and not something we should generally support.

Besides, GhostWriter is based out of Belarus, not Russia proper.  ^_^; https://www.wired.com/story/ghostwriter-hackers-belarus-russia-misinformatio...

Matt

-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown

On Mar 1, 2022, at 12:27 PM, Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@gmail.com> wrote:

...

More or less. The Government Advisory Committee member from Ukraine has asked ICANN to: - Revoke .RU, .рф, and .SU (all Russian-managed ccTLDs)

As the GAC member undoubtedly knows, that’s not how ICANN works. Barring a court/executive order in ICANN’s jurisdiction (and even then, it gets a bit sticky see https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/13/dc-court...), ICANN essentially treats ccTLDs as national sovereign resources. A third party, no matter how justified, requesting a change of this nature will not go anywhere. Simply put, ICANN is NOT a regulator in the forma sense, it is a private entity incorporated in California. The powers that it has are the result of mutual contractual obligations and it’s a bit unlikely the Russian government has entered into any contracts with ICANN, particularly those that would allow ICANN to unilaterally revoke any of the Russian ccTLDs.

I wonder how ICANN would react to ISO removing RU/RUS from ISO 3166-2/3.

See .SU. (SU was moved from allocated to "transitionally reserved” back when the USSR broke up. My recollection is that an agreement was reached by which .SU users would be migrated out to appropriate new ccTLDs, that is, the ccTLDs based on ISO codes created for former Soviet republics, and no new entries would be added to .SU. However, when ICANN tried to propose a plan to finalize removing .SU from the root (around 2006 or so), the operators of .SU reopened registrations and complained to the US Dept. of Commerce, who were overseeing ICANN performance of the IANA Functions contract. Eventually, the Russian government was able to convince ISO-3166/MA to move SU to “exceptionally reserved” (like UK, EU, and a number of others) and forward motion on removing .SU from the root essentially ceased.) Regards, -drc

The problem with all this talk, especially with trusted international neutral organizations, is that once they bend they will never be trusted again. Shutting off the routes, removing TLDs (or keeping them because of politics), etc will cause irreparable damage to these organizations. Bowing to governments, politics, etc does not have a path back from future control. This is a recommendation that will only hurt people (China, North Korea, [even the USA], etc all do this to control their people). Governments will get around whatever the limitations are, it may take them time and resources but they will get around it. Freedom of information is the only way to help people understand the reality of what is going on in the world (galaxy, universe, etc). Brian Technological solutions for Sociological problems ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+briansupport=hotmail.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2022 1:23 PM To: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Ukraine request yikes -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 3/1/22 4:08 PM, David Conrad wrote:

See .SU.

(SU was moved from allocated to "transitionally reserved” back when the USSR broke up. My recollection is that an agreement was reached by which .SU users would be migrated out to appropriate new ccTLDs, that is, the ccTLDs based on ISO codes created for former Soviet republics, and no new entries would be added to .SU. However, when ICANN tried to propose a plan to finalize removing .SU from the root (around 2006 or so), the operators of .SU reopened registrations and complained to the US Dept. of Commerce, who were overseeing ICANN performance of the IANA Functions contract. Eventually, the Russian government was able to convince ISO-3166/MA to move SU to “exceptionally reserved” (like UK, EU, and a number of others) and forward motion on removing .SU from the root essentially ceased.)

I know someone (non-Russian) using .su for a funny name ending in .su. This is non-political and caters only to an English speaking audience. These were registered in the last few years, so they are still open and taking the registrations. I would ask what of .ly used for various URL shorteners, and .kp or .cn? All these are representing evil countries too, why do they get a pass. I'm certain they would argue .us should be revoked for the same. This would break connectivity, and that's a bad thing. - -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEaESdNosUjpjcN/JhYTmgYVLGkUAFAmIejrUACgkQYTmgYVLG kUA+QQ//Z9ovTSFqVEunql2guHAN3xWaNpCpuNJCGM68dJTBSWrPEY0zFXlmZG1k 0TWrSrRSoWogiJmRvaOuFx6KxkaADqZaZq6OFaCw3jvyFGULw+auyuATGlhnUL8p CV0AbovPUnoAef1qJdglFkqnfrGBxeBGsgRIM8tx2l/G+zq5MdMnCx9cM+JmmN1y b+jrV4oekgXRZLAMI/sA9clMAXUmlgReRvit8YBccunkmMP8naQ92vj9dvVGZld0 hGguK2a7vFXpDiW5o0nFe5GRdGIqM0aWUz6p0qkB9JudkZkAyEqSpCePZky4LdAt ebh9544PZu/vllQjv3L6vENlCURcifTIRSevcwfKZtos7UG4mJI1UQ51OLTRjB7a nqYkVNJSQJ+dXZFLPoRHNUOu4+1MAyozpDeMJzMsr4a7Ru2lh0AOTiXxDaSRhOd+ 2s3rQigh/l6cP/x9iM7+f+rInHzPihHfjbwcxhyqd12EFxgTe3hvi9JlRSe18RYw bnDKQg3xKp1eIk0sZMeLyIWDERjsMxIuEP9MuKHp+oTCrLq6MFSgUiFan7M5Pk2t mwB3sbFuwkVzfmDbbnbelll30ukXQM3d7KVp2AHbsvI6hNs6zHZgRb7ZgGrR9Ep5 6UlYqVqQOWtYNujNxYRgzemFI6lgJj8GHyDeh0wLRCP0aw/ATPg= =KK8e -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Not sure how I feel about this. My thoughts have always been to leave government out of Internet operations or otherwise they get comfortable and will want to make decisions that we may not be comfortable with. During wartime, I would think the desire would be to have them connected in order to have access to information and knowledge as necessary. If the idea is suppress Russia from performing bad actions, disconnecting their tld(s) will not solve this and is just a bad approach all around. J~

On Mar 1, 2022, at 16:22, George Herbert <george.herbert@gmail.com> wrote:

I don’t hear anyone in the networks field supporting doing it.

It was a yikes that the request was made, but not looking at all likely to happen IMHO.

-george

Sent from my iPhone

...

...

On Mar 1, 2022, at 2:12 PM, Brian R <briansupport@hotmail.com> wrote:

 The problem with all this talk, especially with trusted international neutral organizations, is that once they bend they will never be trusted again. Shutting off the routes, removing TLDs (or keeping them because of politics), etc will cause irreparable damage to these organizations. Bowing to governments, politics, etc does not have a path back from future control. This is a recommendation that will only hurt people (China, North Korea, [even the USA], etc all do this to control their people). Governments will get around whatever the limitations are, it may take them time and resources but they will get around it. Freedom of information is the only way to help people understand the reality of what is going on in the world (galaxy, universe, etc).

Brian Technological solutions for Sociological problems

From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+briansupport=hotmail.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2022 1:23 PM To: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Ukraine request yikes

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 3/1/22 4:08 PM, David Conrad wrote:

...

See .SU.

(SU was moved from allocated to "transitionally reserved” back when the USSR broke up. My recollection is that an agreement was reached by which .SU users would be migrated out to appropriate new ccTLDs, that is, the ccTLDs based on ISO codes created for former Soviet republics, and no new entries would be added to .SU. However, when ICANN tried to propose a plan to finalize removing .SU from the root (around 2006 or so), the operators of .SU reopened registrations and complained to the US Dept. of Commerce, who were overseeing ICANN performance of the IANA Functions contract. Eventually, the Russian government was able to convince ISO-3166/MA to move SU to “exceptionally reserved” (like UK, EU, and a number of others) and forward motion on removing .SU from the root essentially ceased.)

I know someone (non-Russian) using .su for a funny name ending in .su. This is non-political and caters only to an English speaking audience. These were registered in the last few years, so they are still open and taking the registrations.

I would ask what of .ly used for various URL shorteners, and .kp or .cn? All these are representing evil countries too, why do they get a pass. I'm certain they would argue .us should be revoked for the same.

This would break connectivity, and that's a bad thing. - -- Bryan Fields

727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Hello, On 3/1/22 21:08, David Conrad wrote:

- Shutdown the root server instances operated by ICANN that are within Russia ICANN could conceivably do this unilaterally, but there are a lot more root server instances operated by other RSOs (including RIPE NCC, Verisign, ISC, and NASA).

It's also technically possible to perform full AXFR from some official root-server (it's allowed on some instances) and bring your own root-server locally-anycasted instance anywhere you want. Shutdown of root servers in Russia will not solve anything. - Daniel

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 There's no need for Ukraine to engage ICAAN to achieve its goals. Pretty much every nation has existing telecommunications laws with power for regulation to require telecommunications providers not to provide service to particular nation-states. Law written in an era where Russia military deployment and expansionary policy was front of mind. It's really up to each national leadership to decide if they wish to support the intent of Ukraine's request by issuing regulation. Much as nations are currently doing for the finance sector. - -glen -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTe/Jmxd43ni8odCHCd+sN+Fh/aDwUCYiAIsgAKCRCd+sN+Fh/a DyJLAJ4tV31b2CmgavcUURWDcfj6uQFxPwCggKQmgp4lxjDe16t45Q6bPxYKGdQ= =FRhj -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

That's a valid argument. And no I don't think ISPs, ICANN, or any other organization should get involved in political disputes. Where Russia has crossed the line, though, is in the way they are handling the situation. You bomb/attack government buildings/communication infrastructure/roadways/etc. Launch a party to assassinate the leaders. You *don't* attack apartment buildings, shoot citizens that are just in the street, target populated areas, dress up as the other party, use vacuum bombs. The problem here is not that there is a spat between Ukraine and Russia, the problem is that Russia has violated like 10 different things in the Geneva Convention on how you fight a war. On 3/2/22 11:38 AM, justin@xor.systems wrote:

The problem with all of these sorts of things and why respectable entities like ICANN should avoid such things is because its inherently subjective and prone to a sort of viewers bias that is moulded more or less by the propaganda of the state from which you come (in our case, North America/US et al).

For instance, an actually unpopular opinion is that this all started when a lawfully elected government was overthrown by a minority of the population (<1%) and that the majority of Ukrainians were disenfranchised as a result. This was particularly acute in the Donbass region that voted for Yanukovych very heavily. This brought about an actual rebellion, one that is flatly denied by the government in Kyiv, which in turn brought about the Minsk agreement where the breakdown was that the rebels sought to have local elections for their own governors/mayors that could not be dismissed by the federal legislature. For whatever reason, the Government in Kyiv found this unpalatable and never implemented this part of the agreement until finally the ceasefire broke down and a formal war ensued. The point of this paragraph being that discerning which side is representing "democracy" is a matter of perspective.

Because the shoe could easily fit on the other foot and also be legitimately correct and the same argument could be made to remove TLDs for UA or supporting countries and because which is correct is almost always a matter of perspective-- its best for any such governing entity to avoid allowing itself to be drawn into such ordeals.

As for their request, given that the country has more or less banned all periodicals in Russian from the news stand irrelevant of content, routinely shutdown independent media outlets and because this email simply acknowledging valid grievances in south eastern Ukraine could be cause for a 10 year term in prison if written from within Ukraine-- I will only say that I find the request by the government there to be "extremely consistent with Ukrainian values".

-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+justin=xor.systems@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 5:54 PM To: George Herbert <george.herbert@gmail.com>; Nanog <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Ukraine request yikes

My (unpopular opinion) Russia does not deserve any amenities of the modern world. They have made their bed and now they have to sleep in it.

On 3/1/22 3:16 AM, George Herbert wrote:

...

Posted by Bill Woodcock on Twitter… https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500?s=21

https://pastebin.com/DLbmYahS

Ukraine (I think I read as) want ICANN to turn root nameservers off, revoke address delegations, and turn off TLDs for Russia.

Seems… instability creating…

-george

Sent from my iPhone

It appears that Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> said:

On 2. Mar 2022, at 17:38, <justin@xor.systems> <justin@xor.systems> wrote:

...

“democracy”

PSA: Please read

https://newsletters.theatlantic.com/peacefield/6206c37b9d9e380022bed32f/is-i...

before using words like this again.

Nice article, definitely worth reading. Thanks. R's, John