Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service? Cheers Ryan
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think that the LTE network would be a good replacement for DS1 type services. -----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
On Aug 12, 2011 8:40 PM, "Ryan Finnesey" <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think that the LTE network would be a good replacement for DS1 type services.
My guess is no. Yes, I bet vzw buys from vzb, but not the other way round. Whatever you call the vz LEC does not want to give 40 some cents on the dollar to Vodafone ... the other part of the vzw ownership. Not to mention that LTE is an IP service and ds1 is tdm... Cb
-----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
I was hoping to use LTE for a large number of sites we are about to roll out instead of DS1s. But looks like we will go down the TDM route. Cheers Ryan From: Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:56 AM To: Ryan Finnesey Cc: nanog@nanog.org; Charles N Wyble Subject: RE: Verizon Business - LTE? On Aug 12, 2011 8:40 PM, "Ryan Finnesey" <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think that the LTE network would be a good replacement for DS1 type services.
My guess is no. Yes, I bet vzw buys from vzb, but not the other way round. Whatever you call the vz LEC does not want to give 40 some cents on the dollar to Vodafone ... the other part of the vzw ownership. Not to mention that LTE is an IP service and ds1 is tdm... Cb
-----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
I'm in princeton, nj and I recently moved into a new place and had no internet for about a week and had my router in client mode grabbing hotspot from my phone and it worked surprisingly well. Of course latency can be a bit jumpy but my speeds overall were better than the neighbors comcast :) I also pulled down about 150gb over that week and each day I was waiting for verizon to pull the plug but it never happened. Speeds were consistently around 20/10. I looked around but couldnt find any reasonably cheap 4G interface cards for any of the major router vendors otherwise I might have actually considered it as my home needs are pretty basic. chris On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Ryan Finnesey <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:
I was hoping to use LTE for a large number of sites we are about to roll out instead of DS1s. But looks like we will go down the TDM route.
Cheers
Ryan
From: Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:56 AM To: Ryan Finnesey Cc: nanog@nanog.org; Charles N Wyble Subject: RE: Verizon Business - LTE?
On Aug 12, 2011 8:40 PM, "Ryan Finnesey" <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think that the LTE network would be a good replacement for DS1 type services.
My guess is no.
Yes, I bet vzw buys from vzb, but not the other way round. Whatever you call the vz LEC does not want to give 40 some cents on the dollar to Vodafone ... the other part of the vzw ownership.
Not to mention that LTE is an IP service and ds1 is tdm...
Cb
-----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
I have been very happy with the preference of the VZW network. Both 3G and 4G. The issue we have is that they have a 5GB cap. We have tested both the 3G and 4G HWIC for cisco and have been very happy with the hardware. Cheers Ryan From: chris [mailto:tknchris@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 2:09 PM To: Ryan Finnesey Cc: Cameron Byrne; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? I'm in princeton, nj and I recently moved into a new place and had no internet for about a week and had my router in client mode grabbing hotspot from my phone and it worked surprisingly well. Of course latency can be a bit jumpy but my speeds overall were better than the neighbors comcast :) I also pulled down about 150gb over that week and each day I was waiting for verizon to pull the plug but it never happened. Speeds were consistently around 20/10. I looked around but couldnt find any reasonably cheap 4G interface cards for any of the major router vendors otherwise I might have actually considered it as my home needs are pretty basic. chris On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Ryan Finnesey <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote: I was hoping to use LTE for a large number of sites we are about to roll out instead of DS1s. But looks like we will go down the TDM route. Cheers Ryan From: Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:56 AM To: Ryan Finnesey Cc: nanog@nanog.org; Charles N Wyble Subject: RE: Verizon Business - LTE? On Aug 12, 2011 8:40 PM, "Ryan Finnesey" <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think that the LTE network would be a good replacement for DS1 type services.
My guess is no. Yes, I bet vzw buys from vzb, but not the other way round. Whatever you call the vz LEC does not want to give 40 some cents on the dollar to Vodafone ... the other part of the vzw ownership. Not to mention that LTE is an IP service and ds1 is tdm... Cb
-----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
What plan are you using? My htc thunderbolt has unlimited 4g on the phone and for my hotspot so I'd imagine there is something similar for standalone hardware? chris On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Ryan Finnesey <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:
I have been very happy with the preference of the VZW network. Both 3G and 4G. The issue we have is that they have a 5GB cap. We have tested both the 3G and 4G HWIC for cisco and have been very happy with the hardware.****
** **
Cheers****
Ryan****
** **
** **
*From:* chris [mailto:tknchris@gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, August 13, 2011 2:09 PM *To:* Ryan Finnesey *Cc:* Cameron Byrne; nanog@nanog.org
*Subject:* Re: Verizon Business - LTE?****
** **
I'm in princeton, nj and I recently moved into a new place and had no internet for about a week and had my router in client mode grabbing hotspot from my phone and it worked surprisingly well. Of course latency can be a bit jumpy but my speeds overall were better than the neighbors comcast :) I also pulled down about 150gb over that week and each day I was waiting for verizon to pull the plug but it never happened. Speeds were consistently around 20/10.****
** **
I looked around but couldnt find any reasonably cheap 4G interface cards for any of the major router vendors otherwise I might have actually considered it as my home needs are pretty basic.****
** **
chris****
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Ryan Finnesey <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:****
I was hoping to use LTE for a large number of sites we are about to roll out instead of DS1s. But looks like we will go down the TDM route.
Cheers
Ryan
From: Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:56 AM To: Ryan Finnesey Cc: nanog@nanog.org; Charles N Wyble Subject: RE: Verizon Business - LTE?****
On Aug 12, 2011 8:40 PM, "Ryan Finnesey" <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think that the LTE network would be a good replacement for DS1 type services.
My guess is no.
Yes, I bet vzw buys from vzb, but not the other way round. Whatever you call the vz LEC does not want to give 40 some cents on the dollar to Vodafone ... the other part of the vzw ownership.
Not to mention that LTE is an IP service and ds1 is tdm...
Cb
-----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
****
** **
On Aug 13, 2011, at 6:58 PM, chris wrote:
What plan are you using? My htc thunderbolt has unlimited 4g on the phone and for my hotspot so I'd imagine there is something similar for standalone hardware?
chris
Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile have all dropped their unlimited plans. If you're on one now, you're grandfathered in, but they are no longer orderable. Sprint is the only major carrier left with unlimited data you can order. If you want purely data only, Clear.com also has unlimited plans, but only within their area. The next closest thing is U.S. Cellular, if you're in their area. They have a 5GB cap, with $0.25/MB overage, but the overage(even when roaming) is capped at $200/mo. If you really want to use it as unlimited, you can basically treat it as an unlimited connection for ~$250/mo.
The two problems I have with Clear is that it does not work well indoors (major problem for air ports) and that they will not route my IP block over there network. Cheers Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Day [mailto:toasty@dragondata.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 9:11 PM To: chris Cc: Ryan Finnesey; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? On Aug 13, 2011, at 6:58 PM, chris wrote:
What plan are you using? My htc thunderbolt has unlimited 4g on the phone and for my hotspot so I'd imagine there is something similar for standalone hardware?
chris
Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile have all dropped their unlimited plans. If you're on one now, you're grandfathered in, but they are no longer orderable. Sprint is the only major carrier left with unlimited data you can order. If you want purely data only, Clear.com also has unlimited plans, but only within their area. The next closest thing is U.S. Cellular, if you're in their area. They have a 5GB cap, with $0.25/MB overage, but the overage(even when roaming) is capped at $200/mo. If you really want to use it as unlimited, you can basically treat it as an unlimited connection for ~$250/mo.
Clear is an absolutely horrible ISP. It is quite common for it to go in and out and their modems overheat. --Tammy ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Finnesey" <rfinnesey@gmail.com> To: "Kevin Day" <toasty@dragondata.com>, "chris" <tknchris@gmail.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 10:52:18 PM Subject: RE: Verizon Business - LTE?
The two problems I have with Clear is that it does not work well indoors (major problem for air ports) and that they will not route my IP block over there network.
Cheers Ryan
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Day [mailto:toasty@dragondata.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 9:11 PM To: chris Cc: Ryan Finnesey; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On Aug 13, 2011, at 6:58 PM, chris wrote:
What plan are you using? My htc thunderbolt has unlimited 4g on the phone and for my hotspot so I'd imagine there is something similar for standalone hardware?
chris
Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile have all dropped their unlimited plans. If you're on one now, you're grandfathered in, but they are no longer orderable. Sprint is the only major carrier left with unlimited data you can order. If you want purely data only, Clear.com also has unlimited plans, but only within their area.
The next closest thing is U.S. Cellular, if you're in their area. They have a 5GB cap, with $0.25/MB overage, but the overage(even when roaming) is capped at $200/mo. If you really want to use it as unlimited, you can basically treat it as an unlimited connection for ~$250/mo.
On 08/13/2011 11:56 PM, Tammy A. Wisdom wrote:
Clear is an absolutely horrible ISP.
I've heard people say that. I've used them heavily in Los Angeles and Austin for over a year (almost two now actually). Never had a problem.
It is quite common for it to go in and out
Probably in fringe cover areas.
and their modems overheat.
Never been a problem for me. Which modems (they have a few brands of CPE they are shipping). Details! :)
On 08/13/2011 11:52 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
The two problems I have with Clear is that it does not work well indoors
Oh? The dongle you mean? Yes. The dongle is complete garbage. The Motorolla CPE has been top notch. Tried it various places in my apartment (near window, not near window). Key element for good performance is 0 blockage of the antenna. Though even with a dell desktop in front of it, the performance was decent.
(major problem for air ports) and that they will not route my IP block over there network.
That's annoying.
With the dongle but installed in a cradlepoint with a high gain antenna Cheers Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 11:37 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? On 08/13/2011 11:52 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
The two problems I have with Clear is that it does not work well indoors
Oh? The dongle you mean? Yes. The dongle is complete garbage. The Motorolla CPE has been top notch. Tried it various places in my apartment (near window, not near window). Key element for good performance is 0 blockage of the antenna. Though even with a dell desktop in front of it, the performance was decent.
(major problem for air ports) and that they will not route my IP block over there network.
That's annoying.
We are looking to use the Cisco 3G/4G card http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps11540/index.html We can pick them up for about $250 for the 3G and $350 for the 4G. From: chris [mailto:tknchris@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 7:59 PM To: Ryan Finnesey Cc: Cameron Byrne; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? What plan are you using? My htc thunderbolt has unlimited 4g on the phone and for my hotspot so I'd imagine there is something similar for standalone hardware? chris On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Ryan Finnesey <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote: I have been very happy with the preference of the VZW network. Both 3G and 4G. The issue we have is that they have a 5GB cap. We have tested both the 3G and 4G HWIC for cisco and have been very happy with the hardware. Cheers Ryan From: chris [mailto:tknchris@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 2:09 PM To: Ryan Finnesey Cc: Cameron Byrne; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? I'm in princeton, nj and I recently moved into a new place and had no internet for about a week and had my router in client mode grabbing hotspot from my phone and it worked surprisingly well. Of course latency can be a bit jumpy but my speeds overall were better than the neighbors comcast :) I also pulled down about 150gb over that week and each day I was waiting for verizon to pull the plug but it never happened. Speeds were consistently around 20/10. I looked around but couldnt find any reasonably cheap 4G interface cards for any of the major router vendors otherwise I might have actually considered it as my home needs are pretty basic. chris On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Ryan Finnesey <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote: I was hoping to use LTE for a large number of sites we are about to roll out instead of DS1s. But looks like we will go down the TDM route. Cheers Ryan From: Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:56 AM To: Ryan Finnesey Cc: nanog@nanog.org; Charles N Wyble Subject: RE: Verizon Business - LTE? On Aug 12, 2011 8:40 PM, "Ryan Finnesey" <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think that the LTE network would be a good replacement for DS1 type services.
My guess is no. Yes, I bet vzw buys from vzb, but not the other way round. Whatever you call the vz LEC does not want to give 40 some cents on the dollar to Vodafone ... the other part of the vzw ownership. Not to mention that LTE is an IP service and ds1 is tdm... Cb
-----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
I have used 3G in the past as a backup for some sites and I was pretty impressed with the performance and the ease of configuring it in ios chris On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Ryan Finnesey <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:
We are looking to use the Cisco 3G/4G card http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps11540/index.html We can pick them up for about $250 for the 3G and $350 for the 4G.****
** **
*From:* chris [mailto:tknchris@gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, August 13, 2011 7:59 PM
*To:* Ryan Finnesey *Cc:* Cameron Byrne; nanog@nanog.org *Subject:* Re: Verizon Business - LTE?****
** **
What plan are you using? My htc thunderbolt has unlimited 4g on the phone and for my hotspot so I'd imagine there is something similar for standalone hardware?****
** **
chris ****
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Ryan Finnesey <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:****
I have been very happy with the preference of the VZW network. Both 3G and 4G. The issue we have is that they have a 5GB cap. We have tested both the 3G and 4G HWIC for cisco and have been very happy with the hardware.****
****
Cheers****
Ryan****
****
****
*From:* chris [mailto:tknchris@gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, August 13, 2011 2:09 PM *To:* Ryan Finnesey *Cc:* Cameron Byrne; nanog@nanog.org****
*Subject:* Re: Verizon Business - LTE?****
****
I'm in princeton, nj and I recently moved into a new place and had no internet for about a week and had my router in client mode grabbing hotspot from my phone and it worked surprisingly well. Of course latency can be a bit jumpy but my speeds overall were better than the neighbors comcast :) I also pulled down about 150gb over that week and each day I was waiting for verizon to pull the plug but it never happened. Speeds were consistently around 20/10.****
****
I looked around but couldnt find any reasonably cheap 4G interface cards for any of the major router vendors otherwise I might have actually considered it as my home needs are pretty basic.****
****
chris****
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Ryan Finnesey <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:****
I was hoping to use LTE for a large number of sites we are about to roll out instead of DS1s. But looks like we will go down the TDM route.
Cheers
Ryan
From: Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:56 AM To: Ryan Finnesey Cc: nanog@nanog.org; Charles N Wyble Subject: RE: Verizon Business - LTE?****
On Aug 12, 2011 8:40 PM, "Ryan Finnesey" <rfinnesey@gmail.com> wrote:
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think that the LTE network would be a good replacement for DS1 type services.
My guess is no.
Yes, I bet vzw buys from vzb, but not the other way round. Whatever you call the vz LEC does not want to give 40 some cents on the dollar to Vodafone ... the other part of the vzw ownership.
Not to mention that LTE is an IP service and ds1 is tdm...
Cb
-----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
****
****
** **
On 08/13/2011 01:09 PM, chris wrote:
I'm in princeton, nj and I recently moved into a new place and had no internet for about a week and had my router in client mode grabbing hotspot from my phone and it worked surprisingly well. Of course latency can be a bit jumpy but my speeds overall were better than the neighbors comcast :) I also pulled down about 150gb over that week and each day I was waiting for verizon to pull the plug but it never happened. Speeds were consistently around 20/10.
Nice!
I looked around but couldnt find any reasonably cheap 4G interface cards for any of the major router vendors otherwise I might have actually considered it as my home needs are pretty basic.
Cradlepoint. Yeah it's another box, but it's really nice. Just set it to bridge mode, run a 3" ethernet cable to the cisco WAN port and you are all set.
I've apparently hit some kind of magic bw limit. My 4G LTE is now magically fixed at max 1.5mbps Last month's usage was about 200gb. cmon verizon seriously :( chris On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Charles N Wyble <charles@knownelement.com>wrote:
On 08/13/2011 01:09 PM, chris wrote:
I'm in princeton, nj and I recently moved into a new place and had no internet for about a week and had my router in client mode grabbing hotspot from my phone and it worked surprisingly well. Of course latency can be a bit jumpy but my speeds overall were better than the neighbors comcast :) I also pulled down about 150gb over that week and each day I was waiting for verizon to pull the plug but it never happened. Speeds were consistently around 20/10.
Nice!
I looked around but couldnt find any reasonably cheap 4G interface cards
for any of the major router vendors otherwise I might have actually considered it as my home needs are pretty basic.
Cradlepoint. Yeah it's another box, but it's really nice. Just set it to bridge mode, run a 3" ethernet cable to the cisco WAN port and you are all set.
Folks, Is it possible/common for a non-facilities-based CLEC (we call them paper based) to start getting loops pulled for themselves, and to start physically handling the circuits without becoming a full fledged facilities based CLEC? To clarify ... We have a new customer who is just that ... A non-facilities based CLEC. They don't want to resell AT&T's network anymore as they want to start building their own network, little bit at a time. I was thinking .. Well, shoot .. If all they want to do is sell Internet T1s (for example), then have them pulled back to a collo somewhere over a channelized DS3 on the backend and an equivalent speed internet connection the front - and they will be on their way ... So the question remains ... will they still be able to capture the savings of getting such loops because they are a CLEC, if indeed they are not 'facilities based' and just handling the loops as if they were the customer? I believe they have no intentions on becoming a facilities based CLEC. Make sense? This is somewhat new territory for me - as I never had (or really wanted to) dive into how a CLEC operates before. But I want to exploit that as much as possible if it means wicked cheap loops! Thanks, -graham
On Mon, 15 Aug 2011, Graham Wooden wrote:
To clarify ... We have a new customer who is just that ... A non-facilities based CLEC. They don't want to resell AT&T's network anymore as they want to start building their own network, little bit at a time.
I was thinking .. Well, shoot .. If all they want to do is sell Internet T1s (for example), then have them pulled back to a collo somewhere over a channelized DS3 on the backend and an equivalent speed internet connection the front - and they will be on their way ...
So the question remains ... will they still be able to capture the savings of getting such loops because they are a CLEC, if indeed they are not 'facilities based' and just handling the loops as if they were the customer? I believe they have no intentions on becoming a facilities based CLEC.
If I understand your question, yes. We did this some time ago. Colo in various ILEC and CLEC central offices, order T1 loops (but it's only half a loop...from customer to CO), so you're saving there, and because you're ordering it as a CLEC, most people would be shocked how cheap a T1 can be. Connect the various colos together with a network of T1's and T3's (especially if you can establish a relationship with a carrier who's on-net in all or most of the COs you want to be in), and you're set. Someone looking to start this model now, I'd say is about 10 years late, 5 years too late. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net | _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
On 8/15/11 10:14 PM, "Jon Lewis" <jlewis@lewis.org> wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2011, Graham Wooden wrote:
To clarify ... We have a new customer who is just that ... A non-facilities based CLEC. They don't want to resell AT&T's network anymore as they want to start building their own network, little bit at a time.
I was thinking .. Well, shoot .. If all they want to do is sell Internet T1s (for example), then have them pulled back to a collo somewhere over a channelized DS3 on the backend and an equivalent speed internet connection the front - and they will be on their way ...
So the question remains ... will they still be able to capture the savings of getting such loops because they are a CLEC, if indeed they are not 'facilities based' and just handling the loops as if they were the customer? I believe they have no intentions on becoming a facilities based CLEC.
If I understand your question, yes. We did this some time ago. Colo in various ILEC and CLEC central offices, order T1 loops (but it's only half a loop...from customer to CO), so you're saving there, and because you're ordering it as a CLEC, most people would be shocked how cheap a T1 can be. Connect the various colos together with a network of T1's and T3's (especially if you can establish a relationship with a carrier who's on-net in all or most of the COs you want to be in), and you're set.
Yup, that is the model they are looking to do. The main question was that if they were going to be able to cash in on the loops savings, etc if they remain paper based. With that, could they locate in the LEC's CO? Sure there is a fee for a paper based CLEC. I was thinking just in a regular collo would be just fine.
Someone looking to start this model now, I'd say is about 10 years late, 5 years too late.
Well, I think they need to "move" to this model (from what I am understanding the situation) as they need to expand their horizons. Thanks Jon for the reply. -graham
On 08/15/2011 10:14 PM, Jon Lewis wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2011, Graham Wooden wrote: If I understand your question, yes. We did this some time ago. Colo in various ILEC and CLEC central offices,
Um. Doesn't colo in various ILEC/CLEC CO == facilities based CLEC?
order T1 loops (but it's only half a loop...from customer to CO), so you're saving there, and because you're ordering it as a CLEC, most people would be shocked how cheap a T1 can be. Connect the various colos together with a network of T1's and T3's (especially if you can establish a relationship with a carrier who's on-net in all or most of the COs you want to be in), and you're set.
Interesting. Can't you just ride the existing network between the CO locations? For a fee of course, but I would think it could be all ethernet based and just pay per mb or something?
Someone looking to start this model now, I'd say is about 10 years late, 5 years too late.
Yeah. Building ones own network is a bit... difficult. At least to serve on a competitive basis. -- Charles N Wyble charles@knownelement.com @charlesnw on twitter http://blog.knownelement.com Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
On Tue, 16 Aug 2011, Charles N Wyble wrote:
On 08/15/2011 10:14 PM, Jon Lewis wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2011, Graham Wooden wrote: If I understand your question, yes. We did this some time ago. Colo in various ILEC and CLEC central offices,
Um. Doesn't colo in various ILEC/CLEC CO == facilities based CLEC?
That depends on your definition of "facilities based". As a CLEC, we still depended entirely on the ILEC for T1 loops (installation, troubleshooting/repair, etc.).
Interesting. Can't you just ride the existing network between the CO locations? For a fee of course, but I would think it could be all ethernet based and just pay per mb or something?
Not if they're different ILECs / different LATAs. If you're in an AT&T CO in city A, and a Centurylink CO in city B, and an AT&T CO in city C, you're going to need a 3rd party, preferably with their own fiber, to connect all the POPs together or back to some central hub site where you have your internet connectivity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net | _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:28 PM, chris <tknchris@gmail.com> wrote:
I've apparently hit some kind of magic bw limit. My 4G LTE is now magically fixed at max 1.5mbps
Last month's usage was about 200gb.
cmon verizon seriously :(
they've been fairly public about 'unlimited' != "unlimited" cause basically you could be using it to download the pornz or the warez or ... running an office network on a backup link... you know, normal things. :( -chris
In a message written on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 11:34:50PM -0400, Christopher Morrow wrote:
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:28 PM, chris <tknchris@gmail.com> wrote:
I've apparently hit some kind of magic bw limit. My 4G LTE is now magically fixed at max 1.5mbps
Last month's usage was about 200gb.
cmon verizon seriously :(
they've been fairly public about 'unlimited' != "unlimited"
I have no issues with a cap, however I have huge issues when a company is allowed to call a capped service "unlimited". I think it's straight up false advertising, and I really wish some state AG's would take up the issue. But what's more interesting is that Verizon's contract for LTE has _the exact same cap as 3G service_, 5Gb. If Chris is really getting 200Gb before being capped, that is impressive. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2373767,00.asp PCMag did the math, you can use up the 5GB alotment in 32 minutes with LTE. Seems like as the speeds get faster the cap should get larger, doesn't it? -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:24 AM, Leo Bicknell <bicknell@ufp.org> wrote:
In a message written on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 11:34:50PM -0400, Christopher Morrow wrote:
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:28 PM, chris <tknchris@gmail.com> wrote:
I've apparently hit some kind of magic bw limit. My 4G LTE is now magically fixed at max 1.5mbps
Last month's usage was about 200gb.
cmon verizon seriously :(
they've been fairly public about 'unlimited' != "unlimited"
I have no issues with a cap, however I have huge issues when a company is allowed to call a capped service "unlimited". I think it's straight up false advertising, and I really wish some state AG's would take up the issue.
ya see that little * next to the 'unlimited' in the ad, right? :(
But what's more interesting is that Verizon's contract for LTE has _the exact same cap as 3G service_, 5Gb. If Chris is really getting 200Gb before being capped, that is impressive.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2373767,00.asp
PCMag did the math, you can use up the 5GB alotment in 32 minutes with LTE. Seems like as the speeds get faster the cap should get larger, doesn't it?
airtime is still the same price for the carrier... -chris (note that i believe almost all of these arguments are complete bs... and said as much at the mic in denver)
In a message written on Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:29:13AM -0400, Christopher Morrow wrote:
PCMag did the math, you can use up the 5GB alotment in 32 minutes with LTE. Seems like as the speeds get faster the cap should get larger, doesn't it?
airtime is still the same price for the carrier...
Ah, but you're making my argument! I agree airtime * spectrum is the limited quanity for the provider, and so should influence the cap and pricing. As far as I can tell, LTE can drive 8-10x the data in the same spectrum over the same time period, as compared to HSDPA. If you're really buying "spectrum-minutes" then you should be getting more data with LTE for the same price. Of course, I can't think of another industry where the service provider complains when you use too much. They just bill you more for using more, they don't cut off their own customer who uses the service a lot! -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Leo Bicknell <bicknell@ufp.org> wrote:
In a message written on Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:29:13AM -0400, Christopher Morrow wrote:
PCMag did the math, you can use up the 5GB alotment in 32 minutes with LTE. Seems like as the speeds get faster the cap should get larger, doesn't it?
airtime is still the same price for the carrier...
Ah, but you're making my argument! I agree airtime * spectrum is the limited quanity for the provider, and so should influence the cap and pricing.
I did say I thought the argument was bs ...
As far as I can tell, LTE can drive 8-10x the data in the same spectrum over the same time period, as compared to HSDPA. If you're really buying "spectrum-minutes" then you should be getting more data with LTE for the same price.
so... there's also the bw to the tower, which I think most carriers actually lease as well (they don't own the tower, nor the link to the tower) so it's possible that the whole setup just costs them more now. anyway, they do these donkey things because they can :( people have no real option (except not to play the game, ala war games).
Overall, IMO the trends are just seem to be going backwards. We have more speed but we can use it less? What kind of technology advancement is that? I've had "unlimited" gprs, edge, 3g, and never really seen any kind of actual cap. Sure they were slower but I didn't have to worry about getting surprised on my next bill. If my edge from 5+ years ago could 3gb/day and 90gb a month how is 4G at 5gb an improvement of the service? chris On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Christopher Morrow < morrowc.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Leo Bicknell <bicknell@ufp.org> wrote:
In a message written on Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:29:13AM -0400, Christopher Morrow wrote:
PCMag did the math, you can use up the 5GB alotment in 32 minutes with LTE. Seems like as the speeds get faster the cap should get larger, doesn't it?
airtime is still the same price for the carrier...
Ah, but you're making my argument! I agree airtime * spectrum is the limited quanity for the provider, and so should influence the cap and pricing.
I did say I thought the argument was bs ...
As far as I can tell, LTE can drive 8-10x the data in the same spectrum over the same time period, as compared to HSDPA. If you're really buying "spectrum-minutes" then you should be getting more data with LTE for the same price.
so... there's also the bw to the tower, which I think most carriers actually lease as well (they don't own the tower, nor the link to the tower) so it's possible that the whole setup just costs them more now.
anyway, they do these donkey things because they can :( people have no real option (except not to play the game, ala war games).
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:49 AM, chris <tknchris@gmail.com> wrote:
Overall, IMO the trends are just seem to be going backwards. We have more speed but we can use it less? What kind of technology advancement is that?
I think you're thinking of this the wrong way 'round ... the carriers are doing better:) see, it's better.
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Christopher Morrow < morrowc.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Leo Bicknell<bicknell@ufp.org> wrote:
PCMag did the math, you can use up the 5GB alotment in 32 minutes with LTE. Seems like as the speeds get faster the cap should get larger, doesn't it? airtime is still the same price for the carrier... Ah, but you're making my argument! I agree airtime * spectrum is
In a message written on Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:29:13AM -0400, Christopher Morrow wrote: the limited quanity for the provider, and so should influence the cap and pricing. I did say I thought the argument was bs ...
As far as I can tell, LTE can drive 8-10x the data in the same spectrum over the same time period, as compared to HSDPA. If you're really buying "spectrum-minutes" then you should be getting more data with LTE for the same price. so... there's also the bw to the tower, which I think most carriers actually lease as well (they don't own the tower, nor the link to the tower) so it's possible that the whole setup just costs them more now.
anyway, they do these donkey things because they can :( people have no real option (except not to play the game, ala war games).
On 8/16/2011 11:49 AM, chris wrote [as a top post - now moved to the bottom - k thx]: Overall, IMO the trends are just seem to be going backwards. We have more speed but we can use it less? What kind of technology advancement is that?
I've had "unlimited" gprs, edge, 3g, and never really seen any kind of actual cap. Sure they were slower but I didn't have to worry about getting surprised on my next bill. If my edge from 5+ years ago could 3gb/day and 90gb a month how is 4G at 5gb an improvement of the service?
chris
Demand truth in advertising. Write your representatives in congress and the FCC to ask them to put in place regulations requiring wireless data speeds advertised be based on the cap (if any) regardless of the technology used. 5GB = 5 * 8 * 1024^3 = 42,949,672,960 bits 42,949,672,960 / (86400 * 30) = 16570 b/s 16570 / 1024 = 16 Kb/s So, Verizon LTE (with a 5GB cap) would be a 16Kb/s wireless data connection. [my math may be off, but I get credit for showing my work] NB: if someone wanted to be "clear" that unlimited != unlimited, then they would use the term limited instead. The term unlimited is used precisely because they want to be "UNclear" that unlimited != unlimited. We haven't exceeded the ability of the language to describe this, there are many synonyms for limited - confined, restricted, bound, caped, constricted, curbed, hindered, inhibited, rationed, restrained - any of these could be used to prevent the confusion of unlimited != unlimited. ...and after you have written these letters, copy the files, search and replace "wireless data provider" with "broadband data provider" and send another copy to your representatives :-) Just a thought... and not an original one at that... -DMM
On 16-Aug-11 10:49, chris wrote:
If my edge from 5+ years ago could 3gb/day and 90gb a month how is 4G at 5gb an improvement of the service?
Who said the goal was an improvement in /service/? Based on their actions, it is quite clear that carriers are only interested technology or contract terms that improve their /profits/, i.e. take more money out of customers' wallets. And that's exactly what their shareholders want them to do; it would be rather naïve to expect anything else. S -- Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:49:38AM -0400 Quoting chris (tknchris@gmail.com):
Overall, IMO the trends are just seem to be going backwards. We have more speed but we can use it less? What kind of technology advancement is that?
I've had "unlimited" gprs, edge, 3g, and never really seen any kind of actual cap. Sure they were slower but I didn't have to worry about getting surprised on my next bill. If my edge from 5+ years ago could 3gb/day and 90gb a month how is 4G at 5gb an improvement of the service?
In Sweden, I've seen several people in public transportation run Bittorrent clients on 3G. There might have been 9g a month for you back then, but nobody else did it. Now, every laptop has a 3G card. And they're getting used. With a sensible distribution of users over cells, the bottleneck is backhaul. Many towers started out with a couple bundled E1 circuits. Upgrading them to Ethernet over something (because Ethernet is the new black) costs a lot, apparently. OTOH, never underestimate "Because we can". -- Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina MN-1334-RIPE +46 705 989668 Hmmm ... an arrogant bouquet with a subtle suggestion of POLYVINYL CHLORIDE ...
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Måns Nilsson <mansaxel@besserwisser.org> wrote:
Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:49:38AM -0400 Quoting chris (tknchris@gmail.com):
OTOH, never underestimate "Because we can".
in their own words (vzw)[1]: "Verizon Communications (NYSE: VZ) provided a very bullish outlook on the company’s financial position of its wireless unit today, by saying that it will likely beat its own estimates of achieving 43 percent to 45 percent profit margins," Note in the past I'd said 'verizon plans on 35%+ profit on anything in the wireless space'... I was 10% points off ;( So... 'because we can' seems to fit well here. Yes, I do understand their need/want/etc to 'maximize shareholder value', but they certainly aren't putting caps on because of hardship. [1]: http://moconews.net/article/419-verizon-wireless-expects-to-beat-its-own-pro...
On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:52 PM, Måns Nilsson wrote:
Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:49:38AM -0400 Quoting chris (tknchris@gmail.com):
Overall, IMO the trends are just seem to be going backwards. We have more speed but we can use it less? What kind of technology advancement is that?
I've had "unlimited" gprs, edge, 3g, and never really seen any kind of actual cap. Sure they were slower but I didn't have to worry about getting surprised on my next bill. If my edge from 5+ years ago could 3gb/day and 90gb a month how is 4G at 5gb an improvement of the service?
In Sweden, I've seen several people in public transportation run Bittorrent clients on 3G. There might have been 9g a month for you back then, but nobody else did it. Now, every laptop has a 3G card. And they're getting used. With a sensible distribution of users over cells, the bottleneck is backhaul. Many towers started out with a couple bundled E1 circuits. Upgrading them to Ethernet over something (because Ethernet is the new black) costs a lot, apparently.
Takes a lot of E1s to support a couple hundred Mb/s of down-stream capacity. The capital expended on providing the facility has to include expanded capicty otherwise it doesn't make much sense to roll new technology in the first place.
OTOH, never underestimate "Because we can".
-- Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina MN-1334-RIPE +46 705 989668 Hmmm ... an arrogant bouquet with a subtle suggestion of POLYVINYL CHLORIDE ...
On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:53:24 EDT, Christopher Morrow said:
anyway, they do these donkey things because they can :( people have no real option (except not to play the game, ala war games).
My brother recently tried to get a smartphone without a data plan (as the phone he wanted was also Wifi-capable, and he was *quite* willing to be able to do data-type stuff only when in range of an access point because he's in range of one 95% of the time he'd want to use data features). But at least one vendor said they wouldn't activate a phone under those conditions. Anybody got a good pairing of Android-based smartphone and vendor willing to play that game?
On Aug 16, 2011 9:41 AM, <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:53:24 EDT, Christopher Morrow said:
anyway, they do these donkey things because they can :( people have no real option (except not to play the game, ala war games).
My brother recently tried to get a smartphone without a data plan (as the phone he wanted was also Wifi-capable, and he was *quite* willing to be
able
to do data-type stuff only when in range of an access point because he's in range of one 95% of the time he'd want to use data features). But at least one vendor said they wouldn't activate a phone under those conditions.
Anybody got a good pairing of Android-based smartphone and vendor willing to play that game?
If you pay full price for the phone, this should not be an issue. Many carriers price in data plans to offset the handset hardware subsidy. I would recommend the unlocked nexus s with a prepaid sim for voice minutes ... and wifi for data only. Really, any phone you buy free and clear without subsidy and contract should work fine as a phone with a prepaid sim
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Cameron Byrne <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
Really, any phone you buy free and clear without subsidy and contract should work fine as a phone with a prepaid sim
<cough>except for the fact that mobile carriers CAN do these monkey business moves</cough> (note that tmo seems to NOT do these things, at least in my experience so far, limited though it may be)
On 8/16/2011 10:25 AM, Christopher Morrow wrote:
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Cameron Byrne<cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
Really, any phone you buy free and clear without subsidy and contract should work fine as a phone with a prepaid sim
<cough>except for the fact that mobile carriers CAN do these monkey business moves</cough> (note that tmo seems to NOT do these things, at least in my experience so far, limited though it may be)
You are correct in this belief (about T Mobile). This is yet another reason to protest to your congress critters about the impending acquisition of them by AT&T. My daughter still uses her Android to tether when she needs to, and I'm pretty sure they and US Cellular are the only ones left that allow it. -- The Consultant's Curse: When the customer has beaten up on you long enough, give him what he asks for, instead of what he needs. This is very strong medicine, and is normally only required once.
Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 01:25:05PM -0400 Quoting Christopher Morrow (morrowc.lists@gmail.com):
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Cameron Byrne <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
Really, any phone you buy free and clear without subsidy and contract should work fine as a phone with a prepaid sim
<cough>except for the fact that mobile carriers CAN do these monkey business moves</cough> (note that tmo seems to NOT do these things, at least in my experience so far, limited though it may be)
I'm watching this from across the Atlantic. Oh my, your carriers have WAY to much say in how you use your telephones. In Sweden, noone I know of blocks tethering, a fully paid for unlocked phone can use any SIM, and at least one carrier (Telenor) has unlimited data plans if you get a premium subscription. While we still have to pay insane beyond belief "because-we-can" roaming charges on data in Europe, data in ones own country is fairly cheap. Written from bus and subway (yes, 3G coverage in tunnels) in Stockholm, with small breaks when switching vehicles. -- Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina MN-1334-RIPE +46 705 989668 CONGRATULATIONS! Now should I make thinly veiled comments about DIGNITY, self-esteem and finding TRUE FUN in your RIGHT VENTRICLE??
Måns, I have personally done what you describe, I always (ab)use 3G on the x2000 from stockholm to göteborg :) When SL first rolled out 3G on the x2000 sometime around 2001 I think, I remember probing around and figuring out that it was built on 2x3G with some kind of embedded linux board as router and they even had a squid cache onboard for web browsing :) svenska tjej its the grej! chris On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 3:06 AM, Måns Nilsson <mansaxel@besserwisser.org>wrote:
Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 01:25:05PM -0400 Quoting Christopher Morrow (morrowc.lists@gmail.com):
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Cameron Byrne <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
Really, any phone you buy free and clear without subsidy and contract should work fine as a phone with a prepaid sim
<cough>except for the fact that mobile carriers CAN do these monkey business moves</cough> (note that tmo seems to NOT do these things, at least in my experience so far, limited though it may be)
I'm watching this from across the Atlantic. Oh my, your carriers have WAY to much say in how you use your telephones. In Sweden, noone I know of blocks tethering, a fully paid for unlocked phone can use any SIM, and at least one carrier (Telenor) has unlimited data plans if you get a premium subscription.
While we still have to pay insane beyond belief "because-we-can" roaming charges on data in Europe, data in ones own country is fairly cheap.
Written from bus and subway (yes, 3G coverage in tunnels) in Stockholm, with small breaks when switching vehicles. -- Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina MN-1334-RIPE +46 705 989668 CONGRATULATIONS! Now should I make thinly veiled comments about DIGNITY, self-esteem and finding TRUE FUN in your RIGHT VENTRICLE??
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On Aug 16, 2011, at 10:15 AM, Cameron Byrne wrote:
On Aug 16, 2011 9:41 AM, <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:53:24 EDT, Christopher Morrow said:
anyway, they do these donkey things because they can :( people have no real option (except not to play the game, ala war games).
My brother recently tried to get a smartphone without a data plan (as the phone he wanted was also Wifi-capable, and he was *quite* willing to be
able
to do data-type stuff only when in range of an access point because he's in range of one 95% of the time he'd want to use data features). But at least one vendor said they wouldn't activate a phone under those conditions.
Anybody got a good pairing of Android-based smartphone and vendor willing to play that game?
If you pay full price for the phone, this should not be an issue. Many carriers price in data plans to offset the handset hardware subsidy.
I would recommend the unlocked nexus s with a prepaid sim for voice minutes ... and wifi for data only. Really, any phone you buy free and clear without subsidy and contract should work fine as a phone with a prepaid sim
This of course assumes you want your service from AT&T or T-Mobile. If you want one of the other suppliers that use CDMA, this approach does not work. Owen
On Aug 16, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:53:24 EDT, Christopher Morrow said:
anyway, they do these donkey things because they can :( people have no real option (except not to play the game, ala war games).
My brother recently tried to get a smartphone without a data plan (as the phone he wanted was also Wifi-capable, and he was *quite* willing to be able to do data-type stuff only when in range of an access point because he's in range of one 95% of the time he'd want to use data features). But at least one vendor said they wouldn't activate a phone under those conditions.
Anybody got a good pairing of Android-based smartphone and vendor willing to play that game?
Buy a stand-alone device. Plug your t-mobile sim into it. The subsidy on a nominally $600 phone is predicated on you spending $80 or so a month on service. last lightly used nexus one I ebayed was ~$200, you can accumulate a whole stable of them for what you'd otherwise pay the carrier for the privledge.
As I understand it, data on a smartphone is "unlimited", but data on a non-phone device (called Broadband Access) is capped at 5GB. At one time if you went over 5GB on a "broadband access" account they simply terminated your account. This happened to me. Then a class action lawsuit happened. I got a check from VZ and they stopped terminating people for going over 5GB. Instead, they charged some huge overages fees. IIRC if you used a total of 10 GB (5GB over your allowance) it cost around $250. Last time I checked, Verizon reduced their overage fees to something around $10/GB. Cellular data service such as 1xRTT, EVDO, LTE, etc is great when your only other options are dialup or consumer satellite internet service. -----Original Message----- From: Leo Bicknell [mailto:bicknell@ufp.org] Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 10:24 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? In a message written on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 11:34:50PM -0400, Christopher Morrow wrote:
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:28 PM, chris <tknchris@gmail.com> wrote:
I've apparently hit some kind of magic bw limit. My 4G LTE is now magically fixed at max 1.5mbps
Last month's usage was about 200gb.
cmon verizon seriously :(
they've been fairly public about 'unlimited' != "unlimited"
I have no issues with a cap, however I have huge issues when a company is allowed to call a capped service "unlimited". I think it's straight up false advertising, and I really wish some state AG's would take up the issue. But what's more interesting is that Verizon's contract for LTE has _the exact same cap as 3G service_, 5Gb. If Chris is really getting 200Gb before being capped, that is impressive. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2373767,00.asp PCMag did the math, you can use up the 5GB alotment in 32 minutes with LTE. Seems like as the speeds get faster the cap should get larger, doesn't it? -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
--sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message written on Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 11:34:50PM -0400, Christopher = Morrow wrote:
I've apparently hit some kind of magic bw limit. My 4G LTE is now magic= ally fixed at max 1.5mbps
Last month's usage was about 200gb.
cmon verizon seriously :( =20
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:28 PM, chris <tknchris@gmail.com> wrote: they've been fairly public about 'unlimited' !=3D "unlimited"
I have no issues with a cap, however I have huge issues when a company is allowed to call a capped service "unlimited". I think it's straight up false advertising, and I really wish some state AG's would take up the issue.
But what's more interesting is that Verizon's contract for LTE has _the exact same cap as 3G service_, 5Gb. If Chris is really getting 200Gb before being capped, that is impressive.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2373767,00.asp
PCMag did the math, you can use up the 5GB alotment in 32 minutes with LTE. Seems like as the speeds get faster the cap should get larger, doesn't it?
So if he's used 200GB, and made his carrier ticked off at him that he went over 5GB, they ... capped him at a speed which allows him maybe as much as 452GB/month? % expr 1500000 / 8 \* 30 / 1024 \* 86400 / 1048576 452 I must be doing the math wrong or maybe I messed up reordering the expr to avoid integer overflows... 1500000 bits per second / 8 bits per byte * 30 days per month / 1024 bytes per KB * 86400 seconds per day / 1048576 KB per GB.... looks fine to me. I don't get why they'd cap you at 1.5Mbps if they want your usage to remain within 5GB/month. :-) ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net "We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN) With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.
On 08/13/2011 12:54 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
I was hoping to use LTE for a large number of sites we are about to roll out instead of DS1s. But looks like we will go down the TDM route.
Why is that? I ran a nationwide network of digital signage systems with about 500 of them being 3g (mix of Sprint and Verizon). Worked really well, except for the PRL updates. For some reason the AT command set to do the update didn't work. Never did get that figured out (was pulled off that project to come up with a way to convert the systems from Fedora to Debian without rolling a tech. I did get that project done. It was awesome). Now that startup is pretty much defunct. Hmmm... that's an idea for another thread (management of boxes that aren't in a colo).
Cheers
Ryan
*From:*Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:56 AM *To:* Ryan Finnesey *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org; Charles N Wyble *Subject:* RE: Verizon Business - LTE?
On Aug 12, 2011 8:40 PM, "Ryan Finnesey" <rfinnesey@gmail.com <mailto:rfinnesey@gmail.com>> wrote:
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think
that the
LTE network would be a good replacement for DS1 type services.
My guess is no.
Yes, I bet vzw buys from vzb, but not the other way round. Whatever you call the vz LEC does not want to give 40 some cents on the dollar to Vodafone ... the other part of the vzw ownership.
Not to mention that LTE is an IP service and ds1 is tdm...
Cb
-----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com <mailto:charles@knownelement.com>] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
b/c of coverage issues. Cheers Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 11:31 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE? On 08/13/2011 12:54 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
I was hoping to use LTE for a large number of sites we are about to roll out instead of DS1s. But looks like we will go down the TDM route.
Why is that? I ran a nationwide network of digital signage systems with about 500 of them being 3g (mix of Sprint and Verizon). Worked really well, except for the PRL updates. For some reason the AT command set to do the update didn't work. Never did get that figured out (was pulled off that project to come up with a way to convert the systems from Fedora to Debian without rolling a tech. I did get that project done. It was awesome). Now that startup is pretty much defunct. Hmmm... that's an idea for another thread (management of boxes that aren't in a colo).
Cheers
Ryan
*From:*Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:56 AM *To:* Ryan Finnesey *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org; Charles N Wyble *Subject:* RE: Verizon Business - LTE?
On Aug 12, 2011 8:40 PM, "Ryan Finnesey" <rfinnesey@gmail.com <mailto:rfinnesey@gmail.com>> wrote:
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think
that the
LTE network would be a good replacement for DS1 type services.
My guess is no.
Yes, I bet vzw buys from vzb, but not the other way round. Whatever you call the vz LEC does not want to give 40 some cents on the dollar to Vodafone ... the other part of the vzw ownership.
Not to mention that LTE is an IP service and ds1 is tdm...
Cb
-----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com <mailto:charles@knownelement.com>] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
-----Original Message----- From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:charles@knownelement.com] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon Business - LTE?
On 08/12/2011 10:23 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
Does anyone know if Verizon Business is using the Verizon Wireless LTE network to deliver service?
Who else would they use? I would presume they are eating their own dog food. If not, that's very sad. :)
Copper and fiber is my guess. 8-)
participants (19)
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Cameron Byrne -
Charles N Wyble -
chris -
Christopher Morrow -
David Miller -
Eric Wieling -
Graham Wooden -
Joe Greco -
Joel Jaeggli -
Jon Lewis -
Kevin Day -
Leo Bicknell -
Lynda -
Måns Nilsson -
Owen DeLong -
Ryan Finnesey -
Stephen Sprunk -
Tammy A. Wisdom -
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