Disappointing ARIN - A great advertisement for the USA ?
Hallo North Americans, I am from Europe. A contributor on the Centos (the largest Red Hat clone) list suggested I reposted my ARIN item on your list. I have a BASH script called .w It contains #! /bin/bash whois $1 host $1 When I type .w 51.51.51.51 I receive a normal and conventional display of data because that IP address is not 'organised' by ARIN. When I type:- .w 64.64.64.64 I receive a one line summary of possible matches, which always includes ARIN, but omits the details we used to receive before ARIN implemented its much criticised "improved" service. My second script .wa is more useful for North American IP enquiries:- #! /bin/bash whois -h whois.arin.net n + $1 host $1 On some occasions I get a normal display of Northern American data. The 'n' and '+' are not part of WHOIS. They are ARIN's own parameters. This example produces a 'near-as-possible-because-it-is-ARIN' display:- .wa 65.65.65.65 However when ARIN automatically forwards the query to a North American RWHOIS the query is apparently malformed and nothing useful is displayed. For example:- .wa 66.66.66.66 The Internet was created in North America. Many people around the world would appreciate your help in getting ARIN to revert to normal WHOIS displays. ARIN wants enquirers to click on web page after web page to try and find the information previously displayed in a single response. Frankly that weird attitude is stark raving bonkers! -- With best regards, Paul. England, EU.
On 2011-09-12 17:40 , Always Learning wrote: Dear person who is to scared to setup a regular email account in his own full name. [..]
The Internet was created in North America. Many people around the world would appreciate your help in getting ARIN to revert to normal WHOIS displays. ARIN wants enquirers to click on web page after web page to try and find the information previously displayed in a single response. Frankly that weird attitude is stark raving bonkers!
You are confusing RPSL (RFC2650) with WHOIS (RFC812,RFC954,RFC3912). Now, I agree on the part that ARIN should be doing RPSL, or even more, just start using the RIPE whois server for serving their data. Converting that all over though is not something that will happen easily. (and ARIN has an RPSL server somewhere, but it is not that well populated if at all remotely current) Next to that the bigger question is of course what you are looking for in the whois data. NANOG is not ARIN btw, thus you are posting to the wrong mailinglist for your rant, for that see: https://www.arin.net/participate/mailing_lists/ Oh, and there they also like to see your real name and not a junk mail address. Just like on the RIPE mailinglists, you know in the old country. Greets, Jeroen
On Mon, 12 Sep 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:
On 2011-09-12 17:40 , Always Learning wrote:
Dear person who is to scared to setup a regular email account in his own full name.
[..]
The Internet was created in North America. Many people around the world would appreciate your help in getting ARIN to revert to normal WHOIS displays. ARIN wants enquirers to click on web page after web page to try and find the information previously displayed in a single response. Frankly that weird attitude is stark raving bonkers!
You are confusing RPSL (RFC2650) with WHOIS (RFC812,RFC954,RFC3912).
No he's not. He's complaining that sometime in the past few weeks (or is it months now?) ARIN changed the behavior of their whois server. New output for the query 209.208.0.1 is (omitting comments): Internet Connect Company, Inc. ICC-1 (NET-209-208-0-0-1) 209.208.0.0 - 209.208.127.255 American Registry for Internet Numbers NET209 (NET-209-0-0-0-0) 209.0.0.0 - 209.255.255.255 The old behavior was that ARIN's whois server would respond with the data from NET-209-208-0-0-1. i.e. NetRange: 209.208.0.0 - 209.208.127.255 CIDR: 209.208.0.0/17 OriginAS: NetName: ICC-1 NetHandle: NET-209-208-0-0-1 Parent: NET-209-0-0-0-0 NetType: Direct Allocation ... This is rather an annoying change for anyone who uses whois much as it means every ARIN query is now at least two queries and there are doubtless scripts in use to grab information from whois that broke as a result of this change. NANOG isn't the place to complain about this though. Perhaps PPML is closer to the right place. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net | _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
That was on June 25th according to Mark Kosters. They started to answer with both the parent and delegated objects. That hosed the way RWHOIS data was being reported to most things as the client won't know which to send through to the rwhois servers. Still works from an old SCO box but not from anything current. A "+" flag on the query from some clients will get it to recurse, but for my tests kicked back "%error 350 Invalid Query Syntax". My issue with that response is that the general whois query shouldn't have to have an extra flag passed to get the data you asked for in the first place. This traps out most of the standard users from ever getting the correct data. It also makes the rwhois data almost impossible for the general public to get. Eric -----Original Message----- From: Jon Lewis [mailto:jlewis@lewis.org] Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 11:32 AM To: Jeroen Massar Cc: ppml@arin.net; NANOG Subject: Re: Disappointing ARIN - A great advertisement for the USA ? On Mon, 12 Sep 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:
On 2011-09-12 17:40 , Always Learning wrote:
Dear person who is to scared to setup a regular email account in his own full name.
[..]
The Internet was created in North America. Many people around the world would appreciate your help in getting ARIN to revert to normal WHOIS displays. ARIN wants enquirers to click on web page after web page to try and find the information previously displayed in a single response. Frankly that weird attitude is stark raving bonkers!
You are confusing RPSL (RFC2650) with WHOIS (RFC812,RFC954,RFC3912).
No he's not. He's complaining that sometime in the past few weeks (or is it months now?) ARIN changed the behavior of their whois server. New output for the query 209.208.0.1 is (omitting comments): Internet Connect Company, Inc. ICC-1 (NET-209-208-0-0-1) 209.208.0.0 - 209.208.127.255 American Registry for Internet Numbers NET209 (NET-209-0-0-0-0) 209.0.0.0 - 209.255.255.255 The old behavior was that ARIN's whois server would respond with the data from NET-209-208-0-0-1. i.e. NetRange: 209.208.0.0 - 209.208.127.255 CIDR: 209.208.0.0/17 OriginAS: NetName: ICC-1 NetHandle: NET-209-208-0-0-1 Parent: NET-209-0-0-0-0 NetType: Direct Allocation ... This is rather an annoying change for anyone who uses whois much as it means every ARIN query is now at least two queries and there are doubtless scripts in use to grab information from whois that broke as a result of this change. NANOG isn't the place to complain about this though. Perhaps PPML is closer to the right place. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net | _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
On Mon, 12 Sep 2011, Eric Krichbaum wrote:
That was on June 25th according to Mark Kosters. They started to answer with both the parent and delegated objects. That hosed the way RWHOIS data was being reported to most things as the client won't know which to send through to the rwhois servers. Still works from an old SCO box but not from anything current.
A "+" flag on the query from some clients will get it to recurse, but for my tests kicked back "%error 350 Invalid Query Syntax".
Prepending the query with a + "works" for me, in that I get the expected data, but there's additional unexpeced data (full record for the Parent, even if the Parent is just an ARIN /8) in the output that will probably still cause problems for scripts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net | _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Jon Lewis <jlewis@lewis.org> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2011, Eric Krichbaum wrote:
That was on June 25th according to Mark Kosters. They started to answer with both the parent and delegated objects. That hosed the way RWHOIS data was being reported to most things as the client won't know which to send through to the rwhois servers. Still works from an old SCO box but not from anything current.
A "+" flag on the query from some clients will get it to recurse, but for my tests kicked back "%error 350 Invalid Query Syntax".
Prepending the query with a + "works" for me, in that I get the expected data, but there's additional unexpeced data (full record for the Parent, even if the Parent is just an ARIN /8) in the output that will probably still cause problems for scripts.
my guess is that ARIN is hoping folks turn to the actual RESTful interface for many scripted purposes...I keep expecting to see some example python/perl/etc off: <https://www.arin.net/resources/whoisrws/index.html> but at least the api is documented, it ought to be fairly straightforward to make a simple whois client. (that could be extended to be used in whatever scripty thing you were using before) -chris
On Mon, 12 Sep 2011, Christopher Morrow wrote:
my guess is that ARIN is hoping folks turn to the actual RESTful interface for many scripted purposes...I keep expecting to see some example python/perl/etc off:
Should I change my code to parse the RESTful Interface instead of the NICNAME/WHOIS TCP port 43 service? Absolutely. We encourage use of the new RESTful service for the purposes of programmatic consumption. ARIN plans to make more features available on the RESTful interface. The NICNAME/WHOIS service will remain accessible, but it may not support the enhanced features we intend to incorporate within Whois-RWS. It'd be nice if the NICNAME/WHOIS was left alone as far as default behavior is concerned. So, our tools that use the NICNAME/WHOIS service for lookups at all the other RIRs, now need to be updated to support ARIN's overcomplicated web/XML, which nobody else uses?...and it seems even with RWS you still need to do multiple queries to go from having an IP to having the full whois record. How does the community (other than some programmers) benefit from this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net | _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 12:53:47PM -0400, Jon Lewis wrote:
Prepending the query with a + "works" for me, in that I get the expected data, but there's additional unexpeced data (full record for the Parent, even if the Parent is just an ARIN /8) in the output that will probably still cause problems for scripts.
I'm just sad I can't get the RWHOIS referral from an ip query for jwhois to follow automatically anymore. -- Brandon Ewing (nicotine@warningg.com)
On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 12:32 -0400, Jon Lewis wrote:
No he's not. He's complaining that sometime in the past few weeks (or is it months now?) ARIN changed the behavior of their whois server. New output for the query 209.208.0.1 is (omitting comments):
Internet Connect Company, Inc. ICC-1 (NET-209-208-0-0-1) 209.208.0.0 - 209.208.127.255 American Registry for Internet Numbers NET209 (NET-209-0-0-0-0) 209.0.0.0 - 209.255.255.255
The old behavior was that ARIN's whois server would respond with the data from NET-209-208-0-0-1. i.e.
NetRange: 209.208.0.0 - 209.208.127.255 CIDR: 209.208.0.0/17 OriginAS: NetName: ICC-1 NetHandle: NET-209-208-0-0-1 Parent: NET-209-0-0-0-0 NetType: Direct Allocation ...
This is rather an annoying change for anyone who uses whois much as it means every ARIN query is now at least two queries and there are doubtless scripts in use to grab information from whois that broke as a result of this change. NANOG isn't the place to complain about this though. Perhaps PPML is closer to the right place.
Thank you for confirming the problem. I'll try your PPML @ ARIN suggestion. -- With best regards, Paul, England, EU.
* Jon Lewis:
No he's not. He's complaining that sometime in the past few weeks (or is it months now?) ARIN changed the behavior of their whois server.
Ahem, ARIN's WHOIS server has been sending such responses for ages. Maybe the change is that more addresses trigger this behavior, but you could get the handle list before. Even sending the "+" flag has been requested before: | Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 22:19:09 +0100 | | Package: whois | Version: 4.6.1 | Severity: normal | Tags: patch | | Please include the "+" flag when querying information for IP addresses | from whois.arin.net. This way, whois(1) will print useful information | and not just the useless overview. <http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=174497> -- Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de> BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstraße 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99
On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 18:17 +0200, Jeroen Massar wrote:
On 2011-09-12 17:40 , Always Learning wrote:
Dear person who is to scared to setup a regular email account in his own full name.
Beste Fuzzel, Mijn naam is Paul. It was at the bottom of my posting. Sorry I have never ever had a Hotmail account. I prefer to use nanog@u61.u22.net for this list. I really do not want to set-up another email account for your personal benefit.
You are confusing RPSL (RFC2650) with WHOIS (RFC812,RFC954,RFC3912).
No I am not. A basic WHOIS enquiry is what I was writing about.
Next to that the bigger question is of course what you are looking for in the whois data.
Primarily IP ranges to block and/or abuse email addresses.
Thank you. I will try it.
Oh, and there they also like to see your real name and not a junk mail address. Just like on the RIPE mailinglists, you know in the old country.
The ARIN web page http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml states Your name (optional): The 'old country' sounds a bit South African to me. I'm European and English.
Greets,
Groet in Dutch or Greetings in English. Have a nice day. Paul Always Learning, hopefully until I die.
On 09/12/11 10:13, Always Learning wrote:
Primarily IP ranges to block and/or abuse email addresses.
Thank you. I will try it.
Oh, and there they also like to see your real name and not a junk mail address. Just like on the RIPE mailinglists, you know in the old country.
The ARIN web page http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml states
Your name (optional):
I think arin-discuss would be a better place for this than arin-ppml.
The 'old country' sounds a bit South African to me. I'm European and English.
I think Jeroen's point was that you didn't need to pass judgement on all of North America and/or the USA because ARIN did something you didn't like. michael
On 9/12/11 4:58 PM, "Michael Sinatra" <michael@rancid.berkeley.edu> wrote:
On 09/12/11 10:13, Always Learning wrote:
Primarily IP ranges to block and/or abuse email addresses.
Thank you. I will try it.
Oh, and there they also like to see your real name and not a junk mail address. Just like on the RIPE mailinglists, you know in the old country.
The ARIN web page http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml states
Your name (optional):
I think arin-discuss would be a better place for this than arin-ppml.
Actually, I think the best place to have this particular conversation is arin-tech-discuss. ARIN engineering hangs out there and does respond. I'm not sure if all of NANOG wants to hear about the various behaviors of different whois clients dealing with different whois servers around the globe. If you are interested in the more global whois directory service problem, there is emerging work going on in the IETF to tackle the directory service problem called WEIRDS. Regards, Mark ARIN CTO
I'm not sure if all of NANOG wants to hear about the various behaviors of different whois clients dealing with different whois servers around the globe.
i doubt if there is anything which *all* of nanog wants to hear. but i suspect a damned lot of us care about whois behavior, as we either deal with whois (i do daily) or help our csas and nocs who do. randy
I think arin-discuss would be a better place for this than arin-ppml. You're suggesting using ARIN's private members-only mailing list over a public one? That doesn't make sense, because this is a public issue, not a members issue. PPML isn't right either, that's a numbering policy discussion list, and this is an operational issue, not a policy matter.
I think this is a very simple matter, however... in some way ARIN changed their WHOIS service that introduced major serious breakage. They need to fix that and revert their WHOIS service to its original query syntax and responses, which worked just fine. -- -JH
On 09/12/11 17:49, Jimmy Hess wrote:
I think arin-discuss would be a better place for this than arin-ppml. You're suggesting using ARIN's private members-only mailing list over a public one? That doesn't make sense, because this is a public issue, not a members issue. PPML isn't right either, that's a numbering policy discussion list, and this is an operational issue, not a policy matter.
I meant arin-tech-discuss, and Mark properly corrected me on that. arin-tech-discuss is a public mailing list, and much more appropriate for this sort of discussion than PPML.
I think this is a very simple matter, however... in some way ARIN changed their WHOIS service that introduced major serious breakage.
They need to fix that and revert their WHOIS service to its original query syntax and responses, which worked just fine.
Unfortunately, the original poster, against advice given to him, posted an insulting, jingoistic, inane, and even more derogatory version of his NANOG post, apparently in an effort to spur discussion. What was once a legitimate issue (and I agree one that needs to be addressed) now looks more like troll-bait. Unsurprisingly, nobody has responded. michael
On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 20:07 -0700, Michael Sinatra wrote:
Unfortunately, the original poster, against advice given to him, posted an insulting, jingoistic, inane, and even more derogatory version of his NANOG post, apparently in an effort to spur discussion. What was once a legitimate issue (and I agree one that needs to be addressed) now looks more like troll-bait. Unsurprisingly, nobody has responded.
I was attempting to write in 'Obama-style'. I do make a perfectly valid point, perhaps oblivious to many North Americans who generally are insular, that the world does expect the Americans to do Internet things properly. Many North Americans appear not to understand the general world-wide attitude towards the USA. When something goes wrong at ARIN which affects American IPs, the world seems to blame the Americans. Although there is a clear distinction, certainly in my mind, between one rather small organisation and a state of circa 280 million, never-the-less the world generally blames the Americans. The only noticeable exception when the USA is not blamed for the faults and omissions of an American organisation is Micro$oft. Why does it take the concerns of an European to waken-up the Americans to the outstanding ARIN problem? Perhaps some of you can continue the campaign for the restoration of a basic North American WHOIS ? The rest of the world has a fully functioning WHOIS but not the USA (or Canada). My posting was never meant to be insulting or jingoistic or inane and certainly not derogatory. I was attempting to make those that can influence ARIN have some pride in presenting their country's achievements and services in the best possible way. Like it or not, the Americans run the Internet: Google (the world's biggest spying operation), Micro$oft, Facebook, Yahoo, Twitter, Ebay and their Paypal, Cisco etc. etc. and of course ARIN.
.... What was once a legitimate issue ....
Remains "a legitimate issue" until ARIN resolves it, if ever. -- With best regards, Paul. England, EU.
Saying NANOG = ARIN is like saying Middle East = Terrorist. That kind of generalization is never useful. ARIN is one of many non-Government organizations that make decisions regarding the Internet. As for your reference to "Obama-style" I'm not sure if you're trying to pay homage to, or insult the POTUS, either way it's not piratically constructive to the conversation; especially on a technical mailing list. Please check politics at the door. As mentioned by several others, if you have a problem with changes made by ARIN, an independent non-profit corporation, then it seems logical to contact them and not a community of network operators who have little or no control over ARIN. On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Always Learning <nanog@u61.u22.net> wrote:
On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 20:07 -0700, Michael Sinatra wrote:
Unfortunately, the original poster, against advice given to him, posted an insulting, jingoistic, inane, and even more derogatory version of his NANOG post, apparently in an effort to spur discussion. What was once a legitimate issue (and I agree one that needs to be addressed) now looks more like troll-bait. Unsurprisingly, nobody has responded.
I was attempting to write in 'Obama-style'.
I do make a perfectly valid point, perhaps oblivious to many North Americans who generally are insular, that the world does expect the Americans to do Internet things properly.
Many North Americans appear not to understand the general world-wide attitude towards the USA. When something goes wrong at ARIN which affects American IPs, the world seems to blame the Americans. Although there is a clear distinction, certainly in my mind, between one rather small organisation and a state of circa 280 million, never-the-less the world generally blames the Americans. The only noticeable exception when the USA is not blamed for the faults and omissions of an American organisation is Micro$oft.
Why does it take the concerns of an European to waken-up the Americans to the outstanding ARIN problem? Perhaps some of you can continue the campaign for the restoration of a basic North American WHOIS ? The rest of the world has a fully functioning WHOIS but not the USA (or Canada).
My posting was never meant to be insulting or jingoistic or inane and certainly not derogatory. I was attempting to make those that can influence ARIN have some pride in presenting their country's achievements and services in the best possible way.
Like it or not, the Americans run the Internet: Google (the world's biggest spying operation), Micro$oft, Facebook, Yahoo, Twitter, Ebay and their Paypal, Cisco etc. etc. and of course ARIN.
.... What was once a legitimate issue ....
Remains "a legitimate issue" until ARIN resolves it, if ever.
-- With best regards,
Paul. England, EU.
-- Ray Soucy Epic Communications Specialist Phone: +1 (207) 561-3526 Networkmaine, a Unit of the University of Maine System http://www.networkmaine.net/
Saying NANOG = ARIN is like saying Middle East = Terrorist. That kind of generalization is never useful. ARIN is one of many non-Government organizations that make decisions regarding the Internet.
As for your reference to "Obama-style" I'm not sure if you're trying to pay homage to, or insult the POTUS, either way it's not piratically constructive to the conversation; especially on a technical mailing list. Please check politics at the door.
qed, eh? yes, the op conflated a bunch of crap with the valid technical problem s/he raised. but can the rest of us please try to stick to technalia?
As mentioned by several others, if you have a problem with changes made by ARIN, an independent non-profit corporation, then it seems logical to contact them and not a community of network operators who have little or no control over ARIN.
arin says they serve the community. this change affects the community, they broke my fingers and a few scripts. for others, such as suresh, they broke a *lot* of software. and discussing it here seems to be having useful effect, thanks john. randy
I e-mailed Marco (md) the creator of 'whois' back in July when this started and he stated he was going to try to work around the rWHOIS issue in the next release. Sadly there hasn't been a new release yet but I am hopeful.
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 10:15:10PM -0500, Ryan Gelobter wrote:
I e-mailed Marco (md) the creator of 'whois' back in July when this started and he stated he was going to try to work around the rWHOIS issue in the next release. Sadly there hasn't been a new release yet but I am hopeful.
I don't remember Marco creating "whois"... there was the Network Service Center Phonebook - and Dan Long/BBN mashed it into something you could query ... like finger! (circa 1990) /bill
I hate to beat/stab a dead horsey, but I found this by happenstance: <https://www.arin.net/resources/whoisrws/whois_diff.html> which describes some of the differences between RWS output and traditional output. For the scripty-minded folks out there: $ wget -O - -q http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/128.2.35.50.txt NetRange: 128.2.0.0 - 128.2.255.255 CIDR: 128.2.0.0/16 OriginAS: AS9 NetName: CMU-NET NetHandle: NET-128-2-0-0-1 Parent: NET-128-0-0-0-0 NetType: Direct Assignment RegDate: 1984-04-17 Updated: 2010-05-03 Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-128-2-0-0-1 I reckon that for a simple script replacement of: "whois ip" the above would get you buy fairly neatly (you could account for the differences between old/new formats with the link above as well, if so inclined). -chris On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:15 PM, Ryan Gelobter <ryan.g@atwgpc.net> wrote:
I e-mailed Marco (md) the creator of 'whois' back in July when this started and he stated he was going to try to work around the rWHOIS issue in the next release. Sadly there hasn't been a new release yet but I am hopeful.
I hate to beat/stab a dead horsey, but I found this by happenstance:
<https://www.arin.net/resources/whoisrws/whois_diff.html>
which describes some of the differences between RWS output and traditional output.
For the scripty-minded folks out there: $ wget -O - -q http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/128.2.35.50.txt ...
i used to dial 411. now i have to build a machine from tinkertoys to open the fridge and get information. i am sure someone thought this was progress. you gotta love it. randy
Someone laying that "restful whois" to rest or at least maintaining the old whois in parallel would be great. Lots and lots of scripts to go spammer hunting using regexps to find all the netblocks assigned to a spammer had to be rewritten :( On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
i used to dial 411. now i have to build a machine from tinkertoys to open the fridge and get information.
i am sure someone thought this was progress. you gotta love it.
-- Suresh Ramasubramanian (ops.lists@gmail.com)
Someone laying that "restful whois" to rest or at least maintaining the old whois in parallel would be great.
Lots and lots of scripts to go spammer hunting using regexps to find all the netblocks assigned to a spammer had to be rewritten :(
when you have a monopoly, you do not have the slightest instinct to think of the effects of your actions on others. randy
On Sep 16, 2011, at 3:21 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
when you have a monopoly, you do not have the slightest instinct to think of the effects of your actions on others.
Randy - Over the last decade, we've run multiple consultations with the community regarding changing Whois. These have either been the result of internal recommendations or suggestions from the ARIN community, and have covered a wide range of issues including the format of responses, the number of responses returned, the AUP for the Whois data, and more. All of the archives of these are on https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/index.html. If you have a particular suggestion for changing whois, please feel free to submit it. If you'd prefer a different process altogether for discussing changes, please let me know. FYI, /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
-----Original Message----- From: Randy Bush [mailto:randy@psg.com] Sent: 16 September 2011 16:05 To: John Curran Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Disappointing ARIN - A great advertisement for the USA ?
If you have a particular suggestion for changing whois, please feel free to submit it.
simple. don't.
if you want to do something new, don't call it whois.
randy
Or call it whois and offer the service somewhere else.. Just not in a way that breaks everything. -- Leigh ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________
On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:17 AM, Leigh Porter wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Randy Bush [mailto:randy@psg.com] Sent: 16 September 2011 16:05 To: John Curran Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Disappointing ARIN - A great advertisement for the USA ?
If you have a particular suggestion for changing whois, please feel free to submit it.
simple. don't.
if you want to do something new, don't call it whois.
randy
Or call it whois and offer the service somewhere else.. Just not in a way that breaks everything.
One approach would be the use of an option flag on the query to obtain the new hierarchical output No flag = no output change. Would that suffice? /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
As the new arin whois is best suited for REST .. offer it only over REST? Queries from shell prompts can go on the same way they've gone on for years. On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 9:05 PM, John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:
One approach would be the use of an option flag on the query to obtain the new hierarchical output No flag = no output change. Would that suffice?
-- Suresh Ramasubramanian (ops.lists@gmail.com)
One approach would be the use of an option flag on the query to obtain the new hierarchical output No flag = no output change. Would that suffice?
how to do something new is best discussed by folk who want or need something new, the folk with skin in the game. so, though i have an opinion that your suggestion seems reasonable at first blush, it is worth the pixels on which it is printed. what i care about is pola. please do not change what works and which a lot of fingers and scripts rely. randy
On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:40 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
One approach would be the use of an option flag on the query to obtain the new hierarchical output No flag = no output change. Would that suffice?
how to do something new is best discussed by folk who want or need something new, the folk with skin in the game. so, though i have an opinion that your suggestion seems reasonable at first blush, it is worth the pixels on which it is printed.
what i care about is pola. please do not change what works and which a lot of fingers and scripts rely.
Randy - Can you expand your response some? I'm not certain I understand whether an option would suffice, nor the pola reference. I do get that we shouldn't be changing default output upon which scripts rely. /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
One approach would be the use of an option flag on the query to obtain the new hierarchical output No flag = no output change. Would that suffice? how to do something new is best discussed by folk who want or need something new, the folk with skin in the game. so, though i have an opinion that your suggestion seems reasonable at first blush, it is worth the pixels on which it is printed. Can you expand your response some?
yes i can inflate the syntax, but the semantics would be the same. my opinion on how something new should be done is not highly relevant as i am not invested in something new, have not looked deeply into what new thing you want to do, ... but if you insist on my stating an opinion, then adding some optional and non-interfering syntactic sugar to the whois query will likely not break people's fingers or scripts. inflated enough for you?
I'm not certain I understand whether an option would suffice
what i tried to say was neigher do i. but i suspect it may.
nor the pola reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment i.e. it is what the users will bear :)
I do get that we shouldn't be changing default output upon which scripts rely.
bingo! randy
-----Original Message----- From: John Curran [mailto:jcurran@arin.net] Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 10:36 AM To: Leigh Porter Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Disappointing ARIN - A great advertisement for the USA ? <snip>
One approach would be the use of an option flag on the query to obtain the new hierarchical output No flag = no output change. Would that suffice?
/John
John Curran President and CEO ARIN
I think so. The flag that Mark sent me when I pinged you about this a while ago doesn't work when it hits the rwhois server so the opposite would be desirable. Original display with no flag and flag for this current display would put the scripts back into operation. Eric
On 09/16/11 08:35, John Curran wrote:
On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:17 AM, Leigh Porter wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Randy Bush [mailto:randy@psg.com] Sent: 16 September 2011 16:05 To: John Curran Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Disappointing ARIN - A great advertisement for the USA ?
If you have a particular suggestion for changing whois, please feel free to submit it.
simple. don't.
if you want to do something new, don't call it whois.
randy
Or call it whois and offer the service somewhere else.. Just not in a way that breaks everything.
One approach would be the use of an option flag on the query to obtain the new hierarchical output No flag = no output change. Would that suffice?
I think this would be a good way to proceed. John, has this been suggested as part of ASCP and does it need to be? If so, I can do it. We would also need to understand if there would be any disruption to users of whois caused by changing the default output back to the traditional output. Thanks to Randy and John for turning this into a reasonable discussion. michael
On Sep 17, 2011, at 12:45 PM, Michael Sinatra wrote:
One approach would be the use of an option flag on the query to obtain the new hierarchical output No flag = no output change. Would that suffice?
I think this would be a good way to proceed. John, has this been suggested as part of ASCP and does it need to be? If so, I can do it.
No need to submit it; I have the action item.
We would also need to understand if there would be any disruption to users of whois caused by changing the default output back to the traditional output.
One hopes not, but prudence calls for adequate prior notice so that folks can test and plan accordingly. Expect more information shortly. /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 5:53 AM, John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:
On Sep 16, 2011, at 3:21 AM, Randy Bush wrote: Randy - Over the last decade, we've run multiple consultations with the
While I appreciate that ARIN has had community consultations... It needs to be understood that the WHOIS service is a critical service that many people rely upon, and many people/organizations have developed tools and internal processes that work with the WHOIS service and rely on it continuing to operate in the manner it has operated in the past. There may be no RFC specifying the exact contents of the WHOIS output and the query syntax, but these are de-facto standards and should not be changed without a great deal of care. Many stakeholders are unlikely to be well-represented in the consultation process. ARIN should acknowledge this fact, and therefore ensure that any changes suggested do not break or significantly alter the standard behavior and operation of WHOIS, when a WHOIS user is not issuing a query specifically asking to utilize a new feature or format. When new changes are being proposed they should be operated on a separate WHOIS system in parallel. The community consultation process should not merely be "take this list of suggestions", there should be ACCEPTANCE TESTING and approval by the community of the final result. Regards, -- -JH
Does whois have a bug tracker somewhere? That seems to be the place to file these sort of things.
On 12/09/2011 17:17, Jeroen Massar wrote:
You are confusing RPSL (RFC2650) with WHOIS (RFC812,RFC954,RFC3912).
and you are confusing RPSL with RIPE-181 syntax. RIPE-181 and its grandchildren is a specification for whois information. RPSL is a routing policy language which uses ripe-181 format. The two are not the same.
Now, I agree on the part that ARIN should be doing RPSL, or even more, just start using the RIPE whois server for serving their data.
Now wait one moment until I bog you down with 20 years worth of legacy paranoia, "Not Invented Here" and useless history about why this shouldn't ever have happened... Nick
Now, I agree on the part that ARIN should be doing RPSL, or even more, just start using the RIPE whois server for serving their data. Now wait one moment until I bog you down with 20 years worth of legacy paranoia, "Not Invented Here" and useless history about why this shouldn't ever have happened...
you omitted looking at the code randy
participants (19)
-
Always Learning -
bmanning＠vacation.karoshi.com -
Brandon Ewing -
Charles N Wyble -
Christopher Morrow -
Eric Krichbaum -
Florian Weimer -
Jeroen Massar -
Jimmy Hess -
John Curran -
Jon Lewis -
Leigh Porter -
Mark Kosters -
Michael Sinatra -
Nick Hilliard -
Randy Bush -
Ray Soucy -
Ryan Gelobter -
Suresh Ramasubramanian