Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you. Thank you for the help. -Michael
Bump for Hulu. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Crapse" <michael@wi-fiber.io> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you. Thank you for the help. -Michael
I could use a contact for all of these as well. I have been trying to get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a response. Thank you, Brett A Mansfield On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
Bump for Hulu.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Crapse" <michael@wi-fiber.io> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.
Thank you for the help. -Michael
Anyone figure this out? I need to get our prefixes updated as well as they are detecting our customers in the wrong city. Sam
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of lists@silverlakeinternet.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM To: Mike Hammett Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I could use a contact for all of these as well. I have been trying to get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a response.
Thank you, Brett A Mansfield
On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
Bump for Hulu.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Crapse" <michael@wi-fiber.io> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.
Thank you for the help. -Michael
I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests? Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without getting a vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing all requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have. On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <Sam@sandiegobroadband.com> wrote:
Anyone figure this out? I need to get our prefixes updated as well as they are detecting our customers in the wrong city.
Sam
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of lists@silverlakeinternet.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM To: Mike Hammett Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I could use a contact for all of these as well. I have been trying to get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a response.
Thank you, Brett A Mansfield
On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
Bump for Hulu.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Crapse" <michael@wi-fiber.io> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.
Thank you for the help. -Michael
Talk to your lawyers. They should be able to advise you if there is legal remedy or not and if so what the chances of success are and some estimate of the costs of pursuing action. Mark -- Mark Andrews
On 27 Dec 2017, at 06:41, Michael Crapse <michael@wi-fiber.io> wrote:
I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests? Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without getting a vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing all requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have.
On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <Sam@sandiegobroadband.com> wrote:
Anyone figure this out? I need to get our prefixes updated as well as they are detecting our customers in the wrong city.
Sam
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of lists@silverlakeinternet.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM To: Mike Hammett Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I could use a contact for all of these as well. I have been trying to get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a response.
Thank you, Brett A Mansfield
On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote: Bump for Hulu.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Crapse" <michael@wi-fiber.io> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.
Thank you for the help. -Michael
In article <CAMCxY-EHpQyA=UYhkFBbmXrGuo4QUr62jLW+pqkpxbEa4NGDMg@mail.gmail.com> you write:
I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests?
Is there some reason you believe that Hulu has a legal duty to provide old TV shows to your users? There are laws about discriminating against protected classes like racial or religious minorities but I am fairly sure that "random subscribers of some ISP in Utah" is not such a class." Also, many people will tell you that waving lawyers at a big company very rarely ends well. It is unlikely that Hulu actually doesn't want your users' business and far more likely that there is a bug somewhere in updating IP masks or the like. When you did experiments to see where the big geolocation companies think your networks are (Maxmind, Google, etc.) what did you find? R's, John
set Devil's advocate mode = on On 12/26/2017 04:24 PM, John Levine wrote:
Is there some reason you believe that Hulu has a legal duty to provide old TV shows to your users?
Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying customers? Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the carrier that paying customers uses? Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are accurate? Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be inaccurate?
There are laws about discriminating against protected classes like racial or religious minorities but I am fairly sure that "random subscribers of some ISP in Utah" is not such a class."
It's not a law, but it is a service agreement between Hulu and their customers. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
set Devil's advocate mode = on
Polluted IP space concern = ON
On 12/26/2017 04:24 PM, John Levine wrote:
Is there some reason you believe that Hulu has a legal duty to provide old TV shows to your users?
Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying customers?
Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the carrier that paying customers uses?
Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are accurate? Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be inaccurate?
I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN provider IP space. If you look at some of the blocks I’ve seen, they have some interesting history/registration that seems to appear that way. I’ve pointed folks at Hulu at this thread and an encouraging them to follow-up. If you acquired IP space from a broker, you should follow up with them about the geolocation issues, and you should know what it was used for in the past. If you are using a CDN to serve content, make sure you can serve over v6 and can also do geolocation over IPv6. Finding the IP space used to geolocate generally isn’t difficult. I had previously found some of these myself.
There are laws about discriminating against protected classes like racial or religious minorities but I am fairly sure that "random subscribers of some ISP in Utah" is not such a class."
It's not a law, but it is a service agreement between Hulu and their customers.
It’s also that Hulu is owned by content owners that can decide to be strict about their content rights. I’m not a fan of geoblocking and vote with my wallet to not give Hulu money. While I understand your customers may, the lack of a fix is also a market signal. - Jared
On 2017-12-27 14:10, Jared Mauch wrote:
On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying customers?
Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the carrier that paying customers uses?
Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are accurate? Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be inaccurate?
I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN provider IP space.
I was sitting on this, but what the heck. I personally am curious as to what bug and/or feature allowed a random WISP in Utah (or the parent-ish ISP in New Jersey) to have IP space allocated from AfriNIC. One might consider Hulu et al not so at-fault with that fact in consideration. - Jima
On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Jima <nanog@jima.us> wrote:
On 2017-12-27 14:10, Jared Mauch wrote:
On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying customers?
Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the carrier that paying customers uses?
Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are accurate? Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be inaccurate?
I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN provider IP space.
I was sitting on this, but what the heck.
I personally am curious as to what bug and/or feature allowed a random WISP in Utah (or the parent-ish ISP in New Jersey) to have IP space allocated from AfriNIC.
One might consider Hulu et al not so at-fault with that fact in consideration.
Hi Jima, Net 196/8 is part of the swamp. Just speculating, but perhaps the original registration of 196.53.96.0/22 pre-dated the reassignment of 196/8 to AfriNIC? Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin ................ herrin@dirtside.com bill@herrin.us Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>
On 2017-12-27 15:50, William Herrin wrote:
Net 196/8 is part of the swamp. Just speculating, but perhaps the original registration of 196.53.96.0/22 <http://196.53.96.0/22> pre-dated the reassignment of 196/8 to AfriNIC?
Maybe? This snippet from WHOIS kind of nags at me, though: inetnum: 196.52.0.0 - 196.55.255.255 netname: LogicWeb-Inc descr: LogicWeb Inc. descr: 3003 Woodbridge Ave descr: Edison, NJ 08837 country: ZA Why South Africa if it's a legacy block? It looks like that stems from delegated-afrinic-extended, though: afrinic|ZA|ipv4|196.52.0.0|262144|19951009|allocated|F36E02F6 To your point, there are 42 entries dated 1995 in 196/8 -- 37 of them marked as ZA -- so maybe you're right that it's a relic of a bygone era. That relic might explain the uphill battle the OP has experienced, though -- Hulu (et al) might be using the RIRs' own data to populate their ACLs. And who can blame them? From my understanding, the video content owners often have restrictive requirements in their licensing agreements, which is also why Hulu can't just ask the users their locations (per Laszlo's email). Weird corner cases abound, but it sounds like someone dropped the ball on getting this corrected. Tsk. - Jima
On 12/27/2017 04:11 PM, Jima wrote:
On 2017-12-27 15:50, William Herrin wrote:
Net 196/8 is part of the swamp. Just speculating, but perhaps the original registration of 196.53.96.0/22 <http://196.53.96.0/22> pre-dated the reassignment of 196/8 to AfriNIC?
Maybe? This snippet from WHOIS kind of nags at me, though:
inetnum: 196.52.0.0 - 196.55.255.255 netname: LogicWeb-Inc descr: LogicWeb Inc. descr: 3003 Woodbridge Ave descr: Edison, NJ 08837 country: ZA
Why South Africa if it's a legacy block? It looks like that stems from delegated-afrinic-extended, though:
afrinic|ZA|ipv4|196.52.0.0|262144|19951009|allocated|F36E02F6
We are leasing a /24 from that block as well, it's caused us similar issues but they are mostly resolved now. Luckily we've now deployed our first ipv6 customers with 464xlat and it's working well, so I hope to be able to stop leasing that subnet in 2018. It's hard for small ISPs that can't afford to buy IPv4 blocks, now that ARIN is not handing them out. We're lucky we got a /23, if we'd started a few years later we'd have nothing. --Brock
On 2017-12-27 22:38, Jima wrote:
On 2017-12-27 14:10, Jared Mauch wrote:
On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying customers?
Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the carrier that paying customers uses?
Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are accurate? Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be inaccurate?
I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN provider IP space.
I was sitting on this, but what the heck.
I personally am curious as to what bug and/or feature allowed a random WISP in Utah (or the parent-ish ISP in New Jersey) to have IP space allocated from AfriNIC.
One might consider Hulu et al not so at-fault with that fact in consideration.
- Jima
Addresses aren't an identity nor are they tied to a physical location, so this is pretty irrelevant. What Hulu should be doing is asking the user where they're located, instead of trying to tell them. This thread happens here a couple times a week and the frequency of it will increase as addresses are recycled. Clearly there is a lot of collateral damage from using GeoIP, but it mostly works on the big national ISPs so they still make money. The WISPs and other small ISPs are an acceptable amount of loss, I guess. The problem is that this is Hulu's fault but the pain is felt by everyone else except them, so they have no reason to want to stop doing this. -Laszlo
On 28 Dec 2017, at 9:38 am, Jima <nanog@jima.us> wrote:
On 2017-12-27 14:10, Jared Mauch wrote:
On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying customers?
Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the carrier that paying customers uses?
Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are accurate? Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be inaccurate? I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN provider IP space.
I was sitting on this, but what the heck.
I personally am curious as to what bug and/or feature allowed a random WISP in Utah (or the parent-ish ISP in New Jersey) to have IP space allocated from AfriNIC.
One might consider Hulu et al not so at-fault with that fact in consideration.
- Jima
If you need IPv4 address space you get it where you can. There are lots of addresses used outside of the original RIR service regions. This will occur more and more often. What it does require is the State AG to come into bat for the customer to make HULU correct their business practices as that are obviously broken. You should be able to buy you internet service from anyone in the state and it should work equally well subject to bandwidth limitations. This is a consumer rights issue and it needs to be driven that way. inetnum: 196.53.96.0 - 196.53.99.255 netname: LogicWeb descr: Wi-Fiber, Inc. descr: 775 S Main St. descr: Logan, UT 84321 country: US admin-c: CA12-AFRINIC tech-c: CA12-AFRINIC status: ASSIGNED PA mnt-by: LOGICWEB-MNT source: AFRINIC # Filtered parent: 196.52.0.0 - 196.55.255.255 person: Chad Abizeid address: LogicWeb Inc. address: 4509 Steeplechase Dr. address: Easton, PA 18040 address: USA phone: +1 866 611 1556 org: ORG-LWI1-AFRINIC nic-hdl: CA12-AFRINIC mnt-by: LOGICWEB-MNT source: AFRINIC # Filtered -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org
I had some of that subnet from logicweb. Once I realized it was Afrinic I switched. Now I have the same issue with another subnet from ARIN. 104.153.151.0/24 is all blocked still and I cannot get anyone from any of the companies to respond or unblock them. Thank you, Brett A Mansfield
On Dec 27, 2017, at 4:06 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
On 28 Dec 2017, at 9:38 am, Jima <nanog@jima.us> wrote:
On 2017-12-27 14:10, Jared Mauch wrote:
On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote: Doesn't Hulu (et al) have an obligation to provide service to their paying customers?
Does this obligation extend to providing service independent of the carrier that paying customers uses?
Or if Hulu choose to exclude known problem carriers (i.e. VPN providers) don't they have an obligation to confirm that their exclusions are accurate? Further, to correct problems if their data is shown to be inaccurate? I have a suspicion that these folks acquired IP space that was previously marked as part of a VPN provider, or Hulu is detecting it wrongly as VPN provider IP space.
I was sitting on this, but what the heck.
I personally am curious as to what bug and/or feature allowed a random WISP in Utah (or the parent-ish ISP in New Jersey) to have IP space allocated from AfriNIC.
One might consider Hulu et al not so at-fault with that fact in consideration.
- Jima
If you need IPv4 address space you get it where you can. There are lots of addresses used outside of the original RIR service regions. This will occur more and more often.
What it does require is the State AG to come into bat for the customer to make HULU correct their business practices as that are obviously broken. You should be able to buy you internet service from anyone in the state and it should work equally well subject to bandwidth limitations. This is a consumer rights issue and it needs to be driven that way.
inetnum: 196.53.96.0 - 196.53.99.255 netname: LogicWeb descr: Wi-Fiber, Inc. descr: 775 S Main St. descr: Logan, UT 84321 country: US admin-c: CA12-AFRINIC tech-c: CA12-AFRINIC status: ASSIGNED PA mnt-by: LOGICWEB-MNT source: AFRINIC # Filtered parent: 196.52.0.0 - 196.55.255.255
person: Chad Abizeid address: LogicWeb Inc. address: 4509 Steeplechase Dr. address: Easton, PA 18040 address: USA phone: +1 866 611 1556 org: ORG-LWI1-AFRINIC nic-hdl: CA12-AFRINIC mnt-by: LOGICWEB-MNT source: AFRINIC # Filtered -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org
No, because you have no cause of action known to law. You are not a customer of Hulu and have no right of action. However, your "users" could sue you for failing to provide proper service or perhaps otherwise cause you to suffer damages. In the former case you could file a defense and cross-claim against Hulu claiming that it is their problem, and that not only are they responsible for the claims made against you, they are also liable for your costs and so on and so forth. In the latter case where you suffer damages as a result of Hulu's actions (or inactions) resulting in damage to you, you could sue them on the basis of tortuous interference for their actions. Of course, Hulu will simply claim that you are negligent and just in case file a third party claim against whomever is providing them with false information and thus tortuously interfering with their business. Over the course of the following several years nothing will be done to correct the issue, your customers will abandon you and go elsewhere, and in the end no one will get anywhere except the lawyers who will now be able to afford to buy a few more yachts each. --- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Michael Crapse Sent: Tuesday, 26 December, 2017 12:42 To: Sam Norris Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests? Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without getting a vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing all requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have.
On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <Sam@sandiegobroadband.com> wrote:
Anyone figure this out? I need to get our prefixes updated as well as they are detecting our customers in the wrong city.
Sam
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of lists@silverlakeinternet.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM To: Mike Hammett Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I could use a contact for all of these as well. I have been trying to get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a response.
Thank you, Brett A Mansfield
On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
Bump for Hulu.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Crapse" <michael@wi-fiber.io> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.
Thank you for the help. -Michael
I was being playful with the whole "law" thing. I doubt the users would be able to sue me due to title 2 roll backs. "Net Neutrality" allows ISPs to block any service they deem fit, right? So the first step wouldn't even get past discovery to get to court. Anyhow, it would be sufficiently beneficial if we just had a single contact within hulu. It would be even better if hulu came into the 21st century and supported IPv6 like any other modern service. For others who need this resolved for hulu, these are the subnets I NATed/VPNed to get it working. 8.28.124.0/23 23.0.0.0/8 184.84.0.0/14 199.60.116.0/24 199.127.192.0/22 199.200.48.0/22 208.91.156.0/22 208.98.171.96/27 Michael On 26 December 2017 at 18:54, Keith Medcalf <kmedcalf@dessus.com> wrote:
No, because you have no cause of action known to law. You are not a customer of Hulu and have no right of action.
However, your "users" could sue you for failing to provide proper service or perhaps otherwise cause you to suffer damages.
In the former case you could file a defense and cross-claim against Hulu claiming that it is their problem, and that not only are they responsible for the claims made against you, they are also liable for your costs and so on and so forth.
In the latter case where you suffer damages as a result of Hulu's actions (or inactions) resulting in damage to you, you could sue them on the basis of tortuous interference for their actions.
Of course, Hulu will simply claim that you are negligent and just in case file a third party claim against whomever is providing them with false information and thus tortuously interfering with their business.
Over the course of the following several years nothing will be done to correct the issue, your customers will abandon you and go elsewhere, and in the end no one will get anywhere except the lawyers who will now be able to afford to buy a few more yachts each.
--- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Michael Crapse Sent: Tuesday, 26 December, 2017 12:42 To: Sam Norris Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests? Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without getting a vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing all requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have.
On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <Sam@sandiegobroadband.com> wrote:
Anyone figure this out? I need to get our prefixes updated as well as they are detecting our customers in the wrong city.
Sam
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of lists@silverlakeinternet.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM To: Mike Hammett Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I could use a contact for all of these as well. I have been trying to get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a response.
Thank you, Brett A Mansfield
On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
Bump for Hulu.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Crapse" <michael@wi-fiber.io> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.
Thank you for the help. -Michael
"Net Neutrality" - where only one party in the flow of bits could *possibly* be negligent, malicious, etc. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Crapse" <michael@wi-fiber.io> To: "Keith Medcalf" <kmedcalf@dessus.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 8:03:27 PM Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others I was being playful with the whole "law" thing. I doubt the users would be able to sue me due to title 2 roll backs. "Net Neutrality" allows ISPs to block any service they deem fit, right? So the first step wouldn't even get past discovery to get to court. Anyhow, it would be sufficiently beneficial if we just had a single contact within hulu. It would be even better if hulu came into the 21st century and supported IPv6 like any other modern service. For others who need this resolved for hulu, these are the subnets I NATed/VPNed to get it working. 8.28.124.0/23 23.0.0.0/8 184.84.0.0/14 199.60.116.0/24 199.127.192.0/22 199.200.48.0/22 208.91.156.0/22 208.98.171.96/27 Michael On 26 December 2017 at 18:54, Keith Medcalf <kmedcalf@dessus.com> wrote:
No, because you have no cause of action known to law. You are not a customer of Hulu and have no right of action.
However, your "users" could sue you for failing to provide proper service or perhaps otherwise cause you to suffer damages.
In the former case you could file a defense and cross-claim against Hulu claiming that it is their problem, and that not only are they responsible for the claims made against you, they are also liable for your costs and so on and so forth.
In the latter case where you suffer damages as a result of Hulu's actions (or inactions) resulting in damage to you, you could sue them on the basis of tortuous interference for their actions.
Of course, Hulu will simply claim that you are negligent and just in case file a third party claim against whomever is providing them with false information and thus tortuously interfering with their business.
Over the course of the following several years nothing will be done to correct the issue, your customers will abandon you and go elsewhere, and in the end no one will get anywhere except the lawyers who will now be able to afford to buy a few more yachts each.
--- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Michael Crapse Sent: Tuesday, 26 December, 2017 12:42 To: Sam Norris Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests? Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without getting a vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing all requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have.
On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <Sam@sandiegobroadband.com> wrote:
Anyone figure this out? I need to get our prefixes updated as well as they are detecting our customers in the wrong city.
Sam
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of lists@silverlakeinternet.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM To: Mike Hammett Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I could use a contact for all of these as well. I have been trying to get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a response.
Thank you, Brett A Mansfield
On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote:
Bump for Hulu.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Crapse" <michael@wi-fiber.io> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from those two services that can help my customers reach their services, thank you.
Thank you for the help. -Michael
Title II is not particularly relevant. It merely permits a claim of the form "Carriage must be provided without discrimination to everyone who pays the fee for carriage. I have paid the fee for carriage, but I am suffering discrimination in the provision of carriage as prohibited by Title II parts such and so". In other words, it merely provides a lazy way for lazy lawyers to make lazy claims without having to think about what they are doing. Since they get another new yacht whether they win or lose, it does not really matter to most of them if they do a bang up job or a shoddy one. In any case, it is a stupid claim. You are not discriminating in carriage, even if Title II were still in force. You are providing non-discriminatory carriage and some other third party is tortuously interfering with a contract. In any case, the entire result would turn on what you do in defense. If you are a schmuck then you simply move for summary judgement on the basis that you are providing carriage and that it is another party that is fracked up, and you, through the goodness of your kind heart, tried to solve the issue on behalf of the complainant, to no effect. Then the complainant has to launch another lawsuit against the correct parties. This could go on for quite a while before managing to hit the correct party -- more likely it would never get anywhere at all. Alternatively, you could make the same defense and cross-claim against all the parties who should have been in the original action. The originating claim needs to be brought against all the possible bad actors simultaneously and the claims plead properly. This would require a lawyer that can think -- something very rare. It would be somewhat expensive and delicate, but it would have certain success. --- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
-----Original Message----- From: Michael Crapse [mailto:michael@wi-fiber.io] Sent: Tuesday, 26 December, 2017 19:03 To: Keith Medcalf Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I was being playful with the whole "law" thing. I doubt the users would be able to sue me due to title 2 roll backs. "Net Neutrality" allows ISPs to block any service they deem fit, right? So the first step wouldn't even get past discovery to get to court. Anyhow, it would be sufficiently beneficial if we just had a single contact within hulu. It would be even better if hulu came into the 21st century and supported IPv6 like any other modern service. For others who need this resolved for hulu, these are the subnets I NATed/VPNed to get it working. 8.28.124.0/23 23.0.0.0/8
184.84.0.0/14
199.60.116.0/24 199.127.192.0/22 199.200.48.0/22 208.91.156.0/22 208.98.171.96/27
Michael
On 26 December 2017 at 18:54, Keith Medcalf <kmedcalf@dessus.com> wrote:
No, because you have no cause of action known to law. You are not a customer of Hulu and have no right of action.
However, your "users" could sue you for failing to provide proper service or perhaps otherwise cause you to suffer damages.
In the former case you could file a defense and cross-claim against Hulu claiming that it is their problem, and that not only are they responsible for the claims made against you, they are also liable for your costs and so on and so forth.
In the latter case where you suffer damages as a result of Hulu's actions (or inactions) resulting in damage to you, you could sue them on the basis of tortuous interference for their actions.
Of course, Hulu will simply claim that you are negligent and just in case file a third party claim against whomever is providing them with false information and thus tortuously interfering with their business.
Over the course of the following several years nothing will be done to correct the issue, your customers will abandon you and go elsewhere, and in the end no one will get anywhere except the lawyers who will now be able to afford to buy a few more yachts each.
--- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org <mailto:nanog- bounces@nanog.org> ] On Behalf Of Michael Crapse Sent: Tuesday, 26 December, 2017 12:42 To: Sam Norris Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests? Currently, the only way my customers can connect to hulu without getting a vpn error is by using a vpn. On my end, i have just started NATing all requests to HULU through the few good IPs that I have.
On 26 December 2017 at 11:12, Sam Norris <Sam@sandiegobroadband.com> wrote:
Anyone figure this out? I need to get our prefixes updated as well as they are detecting our customers in the wrong city.
Sam
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org <mailto:nanog- bounces@nanog.org> ] On Behalf Of lists@silverlakeinternet.com Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:28 PM To: Mike Hammett Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I could use a contact for all of these as well. I have been trying to get my subnet unblocked with all of these providers and have reached out in many ways to all of them over the past few months, but never get a response.
Thank you, Brett A Mansfield
Bump for Hulu.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Crapse" <michael@wi-fiber.io> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 3:38:20 PM Subject: Geolocation: IPv4 Subnet blocked by HULU, and others
I am a local WISP. And my customers have trouble reaching Hulu, Disney now, and previously netflix and amazon prime(both resolved). I have emailed, mailed, and called both HULU and Disney now to get my 196.53.96.0/22 subnet unblacklisted as a VPN provider(no longer so) from their services. They have replied saying it takes 3-5 days to resolve the issue, that was several weeks ago. Can i get contact from
services that can help my customers reach their services,
On 2017-12-15 19:57, Mike Hammett wrote: those two thank you.
Thank you for the help. -Michael
On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Michael Crapse <michael@wi-fiber.io> wrote:
I would like to know, Is there any legal recourse we can take against such a company consistently ignoring whitelist requests?
Hi Michael, There is not, however that does not mean a letter from your lawyer to their lawyer would fail to bear fruit. Internally, queries from the legal team tend to get a priority. Perhaps a polite letter to the effect that you have exhausted your options outside of legal channels and would appreciate a prompt response. Hulu doesn't actually want to block legitimate customers, so all you really need is for the right person at Hulu to receive a swift kick in the tail from someone they can't ignore. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin ................ herrin@dirtside.com bill@herrin.us Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>
participants (14)
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Brett A Mansfield -
Brock Tice -
Grant Taylor -
Jared Mauch -
Jima -
John Levine -
Keith Medcalf -
Laszlo Hanyecz -
lists＠silverlakeinternet.com
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Mark Andrews -
Michael Crapse -
Mike Hammett -
Sam Norris -
William Herrin