Has anyone here worked with DiviNetworks (https://divinetworks.com/) to "sell" their unused bandwidth? I'd be curious to hear any thoughts or experiences. Steve -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> Voice: 316-858-3000 Director of Network Operations Fax: 316-858-3001 Hubris Communications http://www.hubris.net
Have several networks using them. This he networks get paid, and no blacklists. Contact me off list if you want more details Justin Wilson lists@mtin.net — https://j2sw.com - All things jsw (AS209109) https://blog.j2sw.com - Podcast and Blog
On Feb 5, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Steve Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> wrote:
Has anyone here worked with DiviNetworks (https://divinetworks.com/) to "sell" their unused bandwidth?
I'd be curious to hear any thoughts or experiences.
Steve
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> Voice: 316-858-3000 Director of Network Operations Fax: 316-858-3001 Hubris Communications http://www.hubris.net
I'd be very cautious about engaging with any company whose business model is to get a short-term lease of your IP-space. Many companies use IP reputation data, and so you are essentially lending that reputation to a 3rd party, who may use it in ways you don't anticipate until the reputation is sufficiently damaged, and then return it to you and move on to another ISP. Some organizations' response to unwanted traffic is simply to block large IP ranges or entire ASes, and not everyone is good about following-up and expiring such blocks in the future. I realize your customers haven't ended-up on any spam/abuse blocklists, but that doesn't mean they won't be, or that their IP reputation hasn't already been affected in less obvious ways. You should ask yourself if you are being sufficiently compensated for these risks as reputable IPv4 space is at a premium, so replacing the IPv4 space you lent out could get quite costly. -- Mike Fuller :: Security Reliability Engineer :: Google :: AS15169 On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 12:15 PM Justin Wilson <lists@mtin.net> wrote:
Have several networks using them. This he networks get paid, and no blacklists. Contact me off list if you want more details
Justin Wilson lists@mtin.net
— https://j2sw.com - All things jsw (AS209109) https://blog.j2sw.com - Podcast and Blog
On Feb 5, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Steve Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> wrote:
Has anyone here worked with DiviNetworks (https://divinetworks.com/) to "sell" their unused bandwidth?
I'd be curious to hear any thoughts or experiences.
Steve
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> Voice: 316-858-3000 <(316)%20858-3000> Director of Network Operations Fax: 316-858-3001 <(316)%20858-3001> Hubris Communications http://www.hubris.net
They don’t lease your IP space is the thing. Justin Wilson lists@mtin.net — https://j2sw.com - All things jsw (AS209109) https://blog.j2sw.com - Podcast and Blog
On Feb 6, 2020, at 2:07 PM, Mike Fuller <mjf@google.com> wrote:
I'd be very cautious about engaging with any company whose business model is to get a short-term lease of your IP-space. Many companies use IP reputation data, and so you are essentially lending that reputation to a 3rd party, who may use it in ways you don't anticipate until the reputation is sufficiently damaged, and then return it to you and move on to another ISP.
Some organizations' response to unwanted traffic is simply to block large IP ranges or entire ASes, and not everyone is good about following-up and expiring such blocks in the future. I realize your customers haven't ended-up on any spam/abuse blocklists, but that doesn't mean they won't be, or that their IP reputation hasn't already been affected in less obvious ways. You should ask yourself if you are being sufficiently compensated for these risks as reputable IPv4 space is at a premium, so replacing the IPv4 space you lent out could get quite costly.
-- Mike Fuller :: Security Reliability Engineer :: Google :: AS15169
On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 12:15 PM Justin Wilson <lists@mtin.net <mailto:lists@mtin.net>> wrote: Have several networks using them. This he networks get paid, and no blacklists. Contact me off list if you want more details
Justin Wilson lists@mtin.net <mailto:lists@mtin.net>
— https://j2sw.com <https://j2sw.com/> - All things jsw (AS209109) https://blog.j2sw.com <https://blog.j2sw.com/> - Podcast and Blog
On Feb 5, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Steve Saner <ssaner@hubris.net <mailto:ssaner@hubris.net>> wrote:
Has anyone here worked with DiviNetworks (https://divinetworks.com/ <https://divinetworks.com/>) to "sell" their unused bandwidth?
I'd be curious to hear any thoughts or experiences.
Steve
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Saner <ssaner@hubris.net <mailto:ssaner@hubris.net>> Voice: 316-858-3000 <tel:(316)%20858-3000> Director of Network Operations Fax: 316-858-3001 <tel:(316)%20858-3001> Hubris Communications http://www.hubris.net <http://www.hubris.net/>
They're not sending traffic from their own IPs, right? So they're leasing yours (whether they make that explicit or not). And that carries all the implications/risks Mike mentioned. Damian On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 12:37 PM Justin Wilson <lists@mtin.net> wrote:
They don’t lease your IP space is the thing.
Justin Wilson lists@mtin.net
— https://j2sw.com - All things jsw (AS209109) https://blog.j2sw.com - Podcast and Blog
On Feb 6, 2020, at 2:07 PM, Mike Fuller <mjf@google.com> wrote:
I'd be very cautious about engaging with any company whose business model is to get a short-term lease of your IP-space. Many companies use IP reputation data, and so you are essentially lending that reputation to a 3rd party, who may use it in ways you don't anticipate until the reputation is sufficiently damaged, and then return it to you and move on to another ISP.
Some organizations' response to unwanted traffic is simply to block large IP ranges or entire ASes, and not everyone is good about following-up and expiring such blocks in the future. I realize your customers haven't ended-up on any spam/abuse blocklists, but that doesn't mean they won't be, or that their IP reputation hasn't already been affected in less obvious ways. You should ask yourself if you are being sufficiently compensated for these risks as reputable IPv4 space is at a premium, so replacing the IPv4 space you lent out could get quite costly.
-- Mike Fuller :: Security Reliability Engineer :: Google :: AS15169
On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 12:15 PM Justin Wilson <lists@mtin.net> wrote:
Have several networks using them. This he networks get paid, and no blacklists. Contact me off list if you want more details
Justin Wilson lists@mtin.net
— https://j2sw.com - All things jsw (AS209109) https://blog.j2sw.com - Podcast and Blog
On Feb 5, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Steve Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> wrote:
Has anyone here worked with DiviNetworks (https://divinetworks.com/) to "sell" their unused bandwidth?
I'd be curious to hear any thoughts or experiences.
Steve
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> Voice: 316-858-3000 <(316)%20858-3000> Director of Network Operations Fax: 316-858-3001 <(316)%20858-3001> Hubris Communications http://www.hubris.net
So interesting thing about Divi. I am a regional WISP operator and we did sign a deal with them and let them use our space. One of the issues we developed while they were active on our network was all of our IP’s started being homed in the UK for google. So anytime a customer would go to google or any google service, it would reroute us the .uk version of the site. This took about 6 months to start happening, so we didn’t have any issues for that long letting them use our IP space. After a day or so of us cutting them off it went away and never came back. I have discussed this with them at length in email phone and in person at conferences. They assured me that this wasn’t them, but when I turned it back on, the issue came back in under a week. Turn them off…. Goes away. So we removed their connection. This was over a year ago, and I have been talking with them again about this but am significantly more cautious about moving forward if for nothing else the above reason alone. Not to mention the other items Mike pointed out which are of the greatest concern. What they do is create a VPN connection on your edge router and utilize your IP space for Geo location IP services and allow their customers to use IP’s from all over the world to check their sites for compatibility/interoperability. That’s what they tell you. I’ve not seen any indication to believe otherwise in my dealings with them which is why we are talking with them again. From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+nathanb=sswireless.net@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Justin Wilson Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2020 1:35 PM To: Mike Fuller <mjf@google.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: DiviNetworks They don’t lease your IP space is the thing. Justin Wilson lists@mtin.net <mailto:lists@mtin.net> — https://j2sw.com - All things jsw (AS209109) https://blog.j2sw.com - Podcast and Blog On Feb 6, 2020, at 2:07 PM, Mike Fuller <mjf@google.com <mailto:mjf@google.com> > wrote: I'd be very cautious about engaging with any company whose business model is to get a short-term lease of your IP-space. Many companies use IP reputation data, and so you are essentially lending that reputation to a 3rd party, who may use it in ways you don't anticipate until the reputation is sufficiently damaged, and then return it to you and move on to another ISP. Some organizations' response to unwanted traffic is simply to block large IP ranges or entire ASes, and not everyone is good about following-up and expiring such blocks in the future. I realize your customers haven't ended-up on any spam/abuse blocklists, but that doesn't mean they won't be, or that their IP reputation hasn't already been affected in less obvious ways. You should ask yourself if you are being sufficiently compensated for these risks as reputable IPv4 space is at a premium, so replacing the IPv4 space you lent out could get quite costly. -- Mike Fuller :: Security Reliability Engineer :: Google :: AS15169 On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 12:15 PM Justin Wilson <lists@mtin.net <mailto:lists@mtin.net> > wrote: Have several networks using them. This he networks get paid, and no blacklists. Contact me off list if you want more details Justin Wilson lists@mtin.net <mailto:lists@mtin.net> — https://j2sw.com <https://j2sw.com/> - All things jsw (AS209109) https://blog.j2sw.com <https://blog.j2sw.com/> - Podcast and Blog
On Feb 5, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Steve Saner <ssaner@hubris.net <mailto:ssaner@hubris.net> > wrote:
Has anyone here worked with DiviNetworks (https://divinetworks.com/) to "sell" their unused bandwidth?
I'd be curious to hear any thoughts or experiences.
Steve
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Saner <ssaner@hubris.net <mailto:ssaner@hubris.net> > Voice: 316-858-3000 <tel:(316)%20858-3000> Director of Network Operations Fax: 316-858-3001 <tel:(316)%20858-3001> Hubris Communications http://www.hubris.net <http://www.hubris.net/>
On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 1:37 PM Mike Fuller via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I'd be very cautious about engaging with any company whose business model is to get a short-term lease of your IP-space. Many companies use IP reputation data, and so you are essentially lending that reputation to a 3rd party, who may use it in ways you don't anticipate until the reputation is sufficiently damaged, and then return it to you and move on to another ISP.
Hi Mike, They explain what they're doing in their documentation and for what it's worth they're probably telling the truth. Their business model is to facilitate pseudonymous web scraping. If you want to anonymously check out your competitors' pricing (anb automate it), you do it by accessing your competitors' web site through DiviNetworks' tunneled transits around the globe. https://divinetworks.com/nature-of-the-traffic/ So, if you're Cogent and you want to gather business data from ARIN.... Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
Regarding DiviNetworks... I am not personally persuaded that an Israeli company that inserted a route object into the RADB data base to act as a cover for the company's apparent theft of a nice juicy /16 AFRINIC region legacy block that actually belongs to, and belonged to a South African state owned oil company (Sasol) is actually worthy of the Internet equivalent of the Good Houskeeping[tm] seal of approval. route: 169.129.0.0/16 descr: This is a DiViNetworks customer route-object which is being exported under this origin AS12491 (origin AS). This route object was created because no existing route object with the same origin was found. Please contact support@divinetworks.com if you have any questions regarding this object. origin: AS12491 mnt-by: MAINT-AS57731 changed: ezra@divinetworks.com 20161021 #19:55:26Z source: RADB Regards, rfg P.S. My past research into the company formally known as Netstyle Atarim Ltd. turned up the following interesting link, which may or may not be relevant: https://il.linkedin.com/in/erez-cohen-83402813 P.P.S. Sasol has taken steps, in recent months to assert and reclaim complete control over both of their two /16 AFRINIC region legacy blocks. I have had multiple late night (my time) conversations with officials there, right up to the Vice President level, regarding the unfortunate circumstances that led to parties other than Sasol routing one or both of their valuable AFRINIC legacy /16 blocks. At last check, Sasol officials were still considering wther or not to file formal police reports in South Africa regarding this matter. P.P.P.S. The above quoted fradulent route object is still present in the RADB data base as we speak. It is by no means alone.
Agreed. I also would be very wary of any traffic that I don’t know about sourcing from my network. The amount of money spent on lawyers when something malicious comes though this ‘sharing’ , and I’m in the jackpot because it sourced from me, is likely going to be many multiples of whatever dollar amount I make back. And this doesn’t consider any contractual terms on your service that might not allow you to do this in the first place. Maybe some situations where it makes some sense for somebody, but too much risk for my tastes. On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 16:39 Mike Fuller via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I'd be very cautious about engaging with any company whose business model is to get a short-term lease of your IP-space. Many companies use IP reputation data, and so you are essentially lending that reputation to a 3rd party, who may use it in ways you don't anticipate until the reputation is sufficiently damaged, and then return it to you and move on to another ISP.
Some organizations' response to unwanted traffic is simply to block large IP ranges or entire ASes, and not everyone is good about following-up and expiring such blocks in the future. I realize your customers haven't ended-up on any spam/abuse blocklists, but that doesn't mean they won't be, or that their IP reputation hasn't already been affected in less obvious ways. You should ask yourself if you are being sufficiently compensated for these risks as reputable IPv4 space is at a premium, so replacing the IPv4 space you lent out could get quite costly.
-- Mike Fuller :: Security Reliability Engineer :: Google :: AS15169
On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 12:15 PM Justin Wilson <lists@mtin.net> wrote:
Have several networks using them. This he networks get paid, and no blacklists. Contact me off list if you want more details
Justin Wilson lists@mtin.net
— https://j2sw.com - All things jsw (AS209109) https://blog.j2sw.com - Podcast and Blog
On Feb 5, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Steve Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> wrote:
Has anyone here worked with DiviNetworks (https://divinetworks.com/) to "sell" their unused bandwidth?
I'd be curious to hear any thoughts or experiences.
Steve
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> Voice: 316-858-3000 <(316)%20858-3000> Director of Network Operations Fax: 316-858-3001 <(316)%20858-3001> Hubris Communications http://www.hubris.net
On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 11:15 AM Steve Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> wrote:
Has anyone here worked with DiviNetworks (https://divinetworks.com/) to "sell" their unused bandwidth?
"Both USED and unused IPs can be utilized. IP allocation is NOT needed. " "the configuration that we provide will ensure that traffic, which belongs to sessions generated by our customers will be redirected through a tunnel to our PoPs while all of your users traffic will be routed as usual to your users. " -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
We have worked extensively with them in the past, legit company that (at the time) used custom live traffic compression boxes via gre tunnels to squeeze more bandwidth out of (expensive) customer lines. Jeroen Wunnink Sr. Manager - Integration Engineering www.gtt.net <http://www.gtt.net/> On 05/02/2020, 20:15, "NANOG on behalf of Steve Saner" <nanog-bounces@nanog.org on behalf of ssaner@hubris.net> wrote: Has anyone here worked with DiviNetworks (https://divinetworks.com/) to "sell" their unused bandwidth? I'd be curious to hear any thoughts or experiences. Steve -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Saner <ssaner@hubris.net> Voice: 316-858-3000 Director of Network Operations Fax: 316-858-3001 Hubris Communications http://www.hubris.net
participants (9)
-
Damian Menscher -
Jeroen Wunnink -
Justin Wilson -
Mike Fuller -
Nathan Babcock -
Ronald F. Guilmette -
Steve Saner -
Tom Beecher -
William Herrin