long distance gigabit ethernet
I'm looking at long-haul gigabit ethernet as a possible solution versus traditional SONET and I'm a little bit wary as promises made on web pages and white papers aren't *always* completely accurate. I'd appreciate it if you all would share your experiences with it. By long-haul I mean in the hundreds or thousands of miles. I need to know: a. Does it work properly? b. Who offers it in the continental US? Please contact me off-list. Any information is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Greg Pendergrass
Forget it with today's technology. All long haul systems use SONET framing. But with the 10Gbe standard WAN PHY you can directly connect into a SONET transponder and your ethernet will be carried transparently. Bill ----------------------------- Bill St. Arnaud Senior Director Network Projects CANARIE Inc www.canarie.ca/~bstarn
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Greg Pendergrass Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 10:36 AM To: 'Nanog@Merit. Edu' Subject: long distance gigabit ethernet
I'm looking at long-haul gigabit ethernet as a possible solution versus traditional SONET and I'm a little bit wary as promises made on web pages and white papers aren't *always* completely accurate. I'd appreciate it if you all would share your experiences with it. By long-haul I mean in the hundreds or thousands of miles. I need to know:
a. Does it work properly?
b. Who offers it in the continental US?
Please contact me off-list. Any information is greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Greg Pendergrass
One thing to consider here is that you have to buy and OC-192 service for 10GbE WAN phy. That is prohibitively expensive for many. Also, be sure to ask Ethernet vendors about their time frames for WAN PHY support. While there is a spec for WAN PHY, there has been a disconnect between the telco and ethernet oriented industries about which PHY will make money for them the fastest. Ethernet vendors in the 10G space typically provide LAN PHY now with vauge plans for WAN phy over the next 18 months. There are exceptions already and this will resolve over time. However, if you are seriously looking at 10GigE today, this is worth spending some time on. For GbE, another direction to look at is the DWDM products that can feed two gig ethernets into an OC-48 channel. On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:45:12AM -0500, Bill St. Arnaud wrote:
Forget it with today's technology. All long haul systems use SONET framing. But with the 10Gbe standard WAN PHY you can directly connect into a SONET transponder and your ethernet will be carried transparently.
Bill
----------------------------- Bill St. Arnaud Senior Director Network Projects CANARIE Inc www.canarie.ca/~bstarn
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Greg Pendergrass Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 10:36 AM To: 'Nanog@Merit. Edu' Subject: long distance gigabit ethernet
I'm looking at long-haul gigabit ethernet as a possible solution versus traditional SONET and I'm a little bit wary as promises made on web pages and white papers aren't *always* completely accurate. I'd appreciate it if you all would share your experiences with it. By long-haul I mean in the hundreds or thousands of miles. I need to know:
a. Does it work properly?
b. Who offers it in the continental US?
Please contact me off-list. Any information is greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Greg Pendergrass
Hi Greg, Are you familiar with companies that provide two gig Ethernets into an OC-48 channel ? Best Regard Chen Genossar VP Business Development phone: 972-4-9936290 fax: 972-4-9892743 mobile: 972-54-936290 cgenossar@opticalaccess.com www.OpticalAccess.com ============================ Optical Access part of the MRV group www.mrv.com ============================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Tony Rimovsky Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 8:42 PM To: Greg Pendergrass Cc: 'Nanog@Merit. Edu' Subject: Re: long distance gigabit ethernet One thing to consider here is that you have to buy and OC-192 service for 10GbE WAN phy. That is prohibitively expensive for many. Also, be sure to ask Ethernet vendors about their time frames for WAN PHY support. While there is a spec for WAN PHY, there has been a disconnect between the telco and ethernet oriented industries about which PHY will make money for them the fastest. Ethernet vendors in the 10G space typically provide LAN PHY now with vauge plans for WAN phy over the next 18 months. There are exceptions already and this will resolve over time. However, if you are seriously looking at 10GigE today, this is worth spending some time on. For GbE, another direction to look at is the DWDM products that can feed two gig ethernets into an OC-48 channel. On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:45:12AM -0500, Bill St. Arnaud wrote:
Forget it with today's technology. All long haul systems use SONET
But with the 10Gbe standard WAN PHY you can directly connect into a SONET transponder and your ethernet will be carried transparently.
Bill
----------------------------- Bill St. Arnaud Senior Director Network Projects CANARIE Inc www.canarie.ca/~bstarn
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Greg Pendergrass Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 10:36 AM To: 'Nanog@Merit. Edu' Subject: long distance gigabit ethernet
I'm looking at long-haul gigabit ethernet as a possible solution versus traditional SONET and I'm a little bit wary as promises made on web
framing. pages
and white papers aren't *always* completely accurate. I'd appreciate it if you all would share your experiences with it. By long-haul I mean in the hundreds or thousands of miles. I need to know:
a. Does it work properly?
b. Who offers it in the continental US?
Please contact me off-list. Any information is greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Greg Pendergrass
On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:03:59 +0200, Chen Genossar wrote:
Hi Greg,
Are you familiar with companies that provide two gig Ethernets into an OC-48 channel ?
That's exactly what Cogent put in at our office. They actually have two OC-48s (DWDM, so they're over the same fiber) that go into a Cisco/Cerex 15454 ONI. Two Gig-Es come out. DS
Forget it with today's technology. All long haul systems use SONET framing. But with the 10Gbe standard WAN PHY you can directly connect into a SONET transponder and your ethernet will be carried transparently.
The Sycamore systems does GigE long haul. Best regards, - kurtis -
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Greg Pendergrass wrote:
a. Does it work properly?
Finisar has GBICs that has ~30 dB budget, MRV used to have them as well, but discontinued production and their newer ones only has 24 dB budget. 30 dB at .25 dB per kilometer means 120km which is approx 75 miles. That's the longest unrepeated gige optics I have found so far. The above is only for dark fibre (or CWDM solutions).
b. Who offers it in the continental US?
I'd recommend you to buy a 2*GigE to OC48 converter/multiplexor and get someone to provide you an 2.5 gig wavelength in their DWDM system, that should be easy enough to find. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:36:22AM -0500, Greg Pendergrass wrote:
I'm looking at long-haul gigabit ethernet as a possible solution versus traditional SONET and I'm a little bit wary as promises made on web pages and white papers aren't *always* completely accurate. I'd appreciate it if you all would share your experiences with it. By long-haul I mean in the hundreds or thousands of miles. I need to know:
a. Does it work properly?
b. Who offers it in the continental US?
I'm going to take a stab and assume that you're actually more interested in finding a longhaul line with GigE on the ends, and not so much how many miles you can get with whatever optics... Rumor has it AT&T was offering a long-haul gige service, though I havn't actually seen it with my own eyes. I'm certain others are as well, though it takes a while to overcome the well-engranded traditions and beliefs about "LAN vs WAN technology" and all that nonsense... Short of that, Cogent offers a layer 3 transport service with gige on both ends as an option... :) -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)
-----Original Message----- From: Richard A Steenbergen [mailto:ras@e-gerbil.net] Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 11:47 AM To: Greg Pendergrass Cc: 'Nanog@Merit. Edu' Subject: Re: long distance gigabit ethernet On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:36:22AM -0500, Greg Pendergrass wrote:
I'm looking at long-haul gigabit ethernet as a possible solution versus traditional SONET and I'm a little bit wary as promises made on web pages and white papers aren't *always* completely accurate. I'd appreciate it
if
you all would share your experiences with it. By long-haul I mean in the hundreds or thousands of miles. I need to know:
a. Does it work properly?
b. Who offers it in the continental US?
I'm going to take a stab and assume that you're actually more interested in finding a longhaul line with GigE on the ends, and not so much how many miles you can get with whatever optics... Absolutely right, I don't care what's in between as long as I have GigE at the end. Other options include using wave (too expensive), or ethernet over MPLS (worth considering although latency may be too high for longer that 1000 miles). GP
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:54:05AM -0500, Greg Pendergrass wrote:
Absolutely right, I don't care what's in between as long as I have GigE at the end. Other options include using wave (too expensive), or ethernet over MPLS (worth considering although latency may be too high for longer that 1000 miles).
Why would latency be too high? Just talk to one of the carriers who do everything over MPLS, I'm sure they're more then interested in selling some kind of "VPN services" (well someone in the company is at any rate, most sales people would be flatly stumped and are more concerned with trying to keep their jobs than finding you cheap longhaul anyways). You might want to try isp-bandwidth, it's a list more suited for finding specific services you can buy and specific sales weenies who will try and sell it to you. I know I've seen the GigE long-haul transport subject come up a couple time there... -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)
Sorry if this is a naive question, but why would you want to do layer 2 over WAN distances anyways? Whats wrong with good old SONET, IP and routing? Do you have non-IP protocols to haul? jm On Friday, March 22, 2002, at 09:02 AM, Richard A Steenbergen wrote:
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:54:05AM -0500, Greg Pendergrass wrote:
Absolutely right, I don't care what's in between as long as I have GigE at the end. Other options include using wave (too expensive), or ethernet over MPLS (worth considering although latency may be too high for longer that 1000 miles).
Why would latency be too high? Just talk to one of the carriers who do everything over MPLS, I'm sure they're more then interested in selling some kind of "VPN services" (well someone in the company is at any rate, most sales people would be flatly stumped and are more concerned with trying to keep their jobs than finding you cheap longhaul anyways).
You might want to try isp-bandwidth, it's a list more suited for finding specific services you can buy and specific sales weenies who will try and sell it to you. I know I've seen the GigE long-haul transport subject come up a couple time there...
-- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)
The cost of the GE modules that are capable of doing this are much lower than oc48 type interfaces for a router. If someone is building a cheap network (see rfc1925) it may not be their first choice to do so but what is forced upon them. - jared On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 09:19:21AM -0800, Jon Mansey wrote:
Sorry if this is a naive question, but why would you want to do layer 2 over WAN distances anyways? Whats wrong with good old SONET, IP and routing? Do you have non-IP protocols to haul?
jm
On Friday, March 22, 2002, at 09:02 AM, Richard A Steenbergen wrote:
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:54:05AM -0500, Greg Pendergrass wrote:
Absolutely right, I don't care what's in between as long as I have GigE at the end. Other options include using wave (too expensive), or ethernet over MPLS (worth considering although latency may be too high for longer that 1000 miles).
Why would latency be too high? Just talk to one of the carriers who do everything over MPLS, I'm sure they're more then interested in selling some kind of "VPN services" (well someone in the company is at any rate, most sales people would be flatly stumped and are more concerned with trying to keep their jobs than finding you cheap longhaul anyways).
You might want to try isp-bandwidth, it's a list more suited for finding specific services you can buy and specific sales weenies who will try and sell it to you. I know I've seen the GigE long-haul transport subject come up a couple time there...
-- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)
-- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from jared@puck.nether.net clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:54:05AM -0500, Greg Pendergrass wrote:
I'm going to take a stab and assume that you're actually more interested in finding a longhaul line with GigE on the ends, and not so much how many miles you can get with whatever optics...
Absolutely right, I don't care what's in between as long as I have GigE at the end. Other options include using wave (too expensive), or ethernet over MPLS (worth considering although latency may be too high for longer that 1000 miles).
there are solutions of this type. SURFNet line, currently used for test and network research is an example. It is from Amsterdam to Chicago. It is presented as GigE at the ends. So fairly long distance, RTT is 93 msec.Actually it terminate as SONET OC48 that goes too TDM Switch which has GigE interfaces. So there is SONET encapsulation in the middle. In theory we can get upto 2.5Gbps. Line is provided by Teleglobe. End equipements are CISCO, ONS 15454. This don't do any routing. This page may be interesting to browse. http://carol.wins.uva.nl/~delaat/optical/index.html You can probably find different variants of such non standard technology from other carriers. -antony
The Cerent 454 (now cisco 15454) has 2 port Gig-E cards that cost a little more than a PA-GE card. The pair of ports shares OC-12 available to that slot (I'm assuming this is NOT an OC-192 equipped shelf) and the bandwidth can be split in certain multiples of STSes (OC-1), or used totally for one port. You only need as many STSes between boxes as you want to use. You can play some nice games with 802.1Q VLANs and multiple sites, too. There is a newer 4 port Cerent gig-E card I have not seen, but that probably can do a FULL gig-E on at least 2 of the ports (i.e. use a full OC-48 if the box has the OC-192 cross connect matrix installed). This newer card I think is only for point to point and does not "understand" VLANS, though probably can carry them. Some DWDM boxes have their own gig-E ports. We have Sycamore ones that give us several Boston, NYC, and Reston routers on the same ethernet. Consider also that many switches support what cisco calls ether-channel. If one gig-E isn't enough, add more in parallel. Any router on this "ethernet" can freely talk to any other. You are not stuck with just one router talking to one at the other end. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony" <antony@phenome.org> To: "Greg Pendergrass" <greg@band-x.com> Cc: "Richard A Steenbergen" <ras@e-gerbil.net>; "'Nanog@Merit. Edu'" <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: Re: long distance gigabit ethernet
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:54:05AM -0500, Greg Pendergrass wrote:
I'm going to take a stab and assume that you're actually more interested in finding a longhaul line with GigE on the ends, and not so much how
many
miles you can get with whatever optics...
Absolutely right, I don't care what's in between as long as I have GigE at the end. Other options include using wave (too expensive), or ethernet over MPLS (worth considering although latency may be too high for longer that 1000 miles).
there are solutions of this type. SURFNet line, currently used for test and network research is an example. It is from Amsterdam to Chicago. It is presented as GigE at the ends.
So fairly long distance, RTT is 93 msec.Actually it terminate as SONET OC48 that goes too TDM Switch which has GigE interfaces. So there is SONET encapsulation in the middle. In theory we can get upto 2.5Gbps.
Line is provided by Teleglobe. End equipements are CISCO, ONS 15454. This don't do any routing.
This page may be interesting to browse. http://carol.wins.uva.nl/~delaat/optical/index.html
You can probably find different variants of such non standard technology from other carriers.
-antony
* I'm looking at long-haul gigabit ethernet as a possible solution versus
traditional SONET and I'm a little bit wary as promises made on web pages and white papers aren't *always* completely accurate. I'd appreciate it if you all would share your experiences with it. By long-haul I mean in the hundreds or thousands of miles. I need to know:
Part of the MRV group you can find Optical Access and Charlotte's Web Networks solutions. We installed the solution for few Giga to OC48 in several places as backhaul connectivity and it works just find. It includes VLANS and MPLS on top of few Giga, OC48 Best Regard Chen Genossar VP Business Development phone: 972-4-9936290 fax: 972-4-9892743 mobile: 972-54-936290 cgenossar@opticalaccess.com www.OpticalAccess.com ============================ Optical Access part of the MRV group www.mrv.com ============================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Greg Pendergrass Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 6:54 PM To: Richard A Steenbergen Cc: 'Nanog@Merit. Edu' Subject: RE: long distance gigabit ethernet -----Original Message----- From: Richard A Steenbergen [mailto:ras@e-gerbil.net] Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 11:47 AM To: Greg Pendergrass Cc: 'Nanog@Merit. Edu' Subject: Re: long distance gigabit ethernet On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:36:22AM -0500, Greg Pendergrass wrote:
I'm looking at long-haul gigabit ethernet as a possible solution versus traditional SONET and I'm a little bit wary as promises made on web pages and white papers aren't *always* completely accurate. I'd appreciate it
if
you all would share your experiences with it. By long-haul I mean in the hundreds or thousands of miles. I need to know:
a. Does it work properly?
b. Who offers it in the continental US?
I'm going to take a stab and assume that you're actually more interested in finding a longhaul line with GigE on the ends, and not so much how many miles you can get with whatever optics... Absolutely right, I don't care what's in between as long as I have GigE at the end. Other options include using wave (too expensive), or ethernet over MPLS (worth considering although latency may be too high for longer that 1000 miles). GP
participants (12)
-
Antony -
Barton F Bruce -
Bill St. Arnaud -
Chen Genossar -
David Schwartz -
Greg Pendergrass -
Jared Mauch -
Jon Mansey -
Kurt Erik Lindqvist -
Mikael Abrahamsson -
Richard A Steenbergen -
Tony Rimovsky