using ARIN IP space outside of ARIN region
We're looking at building into a DC in Europe this year and I wanted to run a few questions by the community and make sure I'm not too far off course. We currently have v4 space from ARIN and operate a multihomed datacenter in the US. This thread from September 2012, though the reverse of my situation, makes it seem like I should be able to work with ARIN to satisfy all of our v4 and v6 needs regardless of where in the world I plan to advertise the space. Obviously this would be really convenient for us since we already have a relationship with ARIN. http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2012-September/052137.html So my questions are: * Is it ok/recommended to advertise v4 ARIN space (say a /23) to my upstream ISPs in Europe? * Is it ok/recommended to advertise v6 ARIN space to my upstream ISPs in Europe? (I suspect we'll get a /44 block to carve up since we fit in the "more than one but less than 12 sites" category) * Should I use a single AS for both North America and European data centers? It will be the same small team managing them today but it's not like the sites are linked together to form any kind of transit network. Also, is there a European version of RADB with which I should plan to register my prefixes? thanks! - andy
On Mar 18, 2013, at 3:41 PM, Andy Litzinger <Andy.Litzinger@theplatform.com> wrote:
We're looking at building into a DC in Europe this year and I wanted to run a few questions by the community and make sure I'm not too far off course. We currently have v4 space from ARIN and operate a multihomed datacenter in the US. This thread from September 2012, though the reverse of my situation, makes it seem like I should be able to work with ARIN to satisfy all of our v4 and v6 needs regardless of where in the world I plan to advertise the space. Obviously this would be really convenient for us since we already have a relationship with ARIN. http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2012-September/052137.html
Note that I am speaking here as an ARIN member and resource-recipient (PCH), AND NOT as an ARIN board member. I have no inside track on the interpretation of ARIN rules, and don't pretend to.
So my questions are: * Is it ok/recommended to advertise v4 ARIN space (say a /23) to my upstream ISPs in Europe?
We do so, without any problems.
* Is it ok/recommended to advertise v6 ARIN space to my upstream ISPs in Europe?
We do so, without any problems.
* Should I use a single AS for both North America and European data centers?
We do so, without any problems. HOWEVER, we've been told in the past that space received from ARIN and used outside the ARIN region did not qualify as "utilization" for the purposes of justifying new allocations, nor were locations outside the ARIN region entitled to new allocations. We were told to get space for POPs outside of ARIN's region from the other respective RIRs. And indeed, those other RIRs have, by and large, been quite cooperative with giving us space for use within their regions, even in the cases when we had no business incorporated entity within their region. This experience is two or three years old, now, so interpretation and policy changes may have had some effect since then. -Bill
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 03:49:37PM -0700, Bill Woodcock wrote:
HOWEVER, we've been told in the past that space received from ARIN and used outside the ARIN region did not qualify as "utilization" for the purposes of justifying new allocations, nor were locations outside the ARIN region entitled to new allocations. We were told to get space for POPs outside of ARIN's region from the other respective RIRs. And indeed, those other RIRs have, by and large, been quite cooperative with giving us space for use within their regions, even in the cases when we had no business incorporated entity within their region.
Which is ironic, because when we recently applied to ARIN for number resources to support our US operations, we were told to use our APNIC space instead. - Matt
On Mar 18, 2013, at 9:41 PM, Matt Palmer <mpalmer@hezmatt.org> wrote:
Which is ironic, because when we recently applied to ARIN for number resources to support our US operations, we were told to use our APNIC space instead.
That's just the RIRs protecting you from yourself -- after all, everyone knows IP addresses (both v4 and v6) only makes sense if they are defined within geo-political monopolies. Sort of like RFC 3514 except with regions instead of moral states. (obligatory :) for the sarcasm impaired) Regards, -drc
On Mar 18, 2013, at 4:49 PM, Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net> wrote:
HOWEVER, we've been told in the past that space received from ARIN and used outside the ARIN region did not qualify as "utilization" for the purposes of justifying new allocations, nor were locations outside the ARIN region entitled to new allocations. We were told to get space for POPs outside of ARIN's region from the other respective RIRs. And indeed, those other RIRs have, by and large, been quite cooperative with giving us space for use within their regions, even in the cases when we had no business incorporated entity within their region.
Bill - You are correct, with respect to ARIN's handling of requests which span regions: - If an organization requests resources for use outside of the ARIN region, we would deny the request and refer them to the appropriate RIR. - If an organization requests space for both in region and out of region use, we will generally only allow them to obtain the space for the portion of request that will be used in the region, based on utilization of existing blocks in the region. - We will not count space issued by another RIR as justification for an initial allocation request from ARIN. Clearly, issuance of address space across regions is an issue which is becoming more interesting in recent years. We have noted this in past Policy Experience Reports, and hope to discuss it more at the upcoming ARIN 31 meeting, so that the community can see if any policy changes are appropriate or would simplify processing of these requests. Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
On Mar 18, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Andy Litzinger <Andy.Litzinger@theplatform.com> wrote:
We're looking at building into a DC in Europe this year and I wanted to run a few questions by the community and make sure I'm not too far off course.
We currently have v4 space from ARIN and operate a multihomed datacenter in the US. This thread from September 2012, though the reverse of my situation, makes it seem like I should be able to work with ARIN to satisfy all of our v4 and v6 needs regardless of where in the world I plan to advertise the space. Obviously this would be really convenient for us since we already have a relationship with ARIN. http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2012-September/052137.html
So my questions are: * Is it ok/recommended to advertise v4 ARIN space (say a /23) to my upstream ISPs in Europe?
Yes, expect there to possibly be geolocation issues.
* Is it ok/recommended to advertise v6 ARIN space to my upstream ISPs in Europe? (I suspect we'll get a /44 block to carve up since we fit in the "more than one but less than 12 sites" category)
I would recommend looking at RIPE membership depending on the nature of your business. It may make sense to do this.
* Should I use a single AS for both North America and European data centers? It will be the same small team managing them today but it's not like the sites are linked together to form any kind of transit network.
I see no issues with a single-AS. What you want to look at is if it makes sense. If you have just one link connecting your EU-North America sites, it may make sense to use a different ASN in the event of that circuit going down. If you use diverse cable systems, you are likely "OK". Make sure you track what system you are on, when there is an outage, it can take weeks to recover.
Also, is there a European version of RADB with which I should plan to register my prefixes?
This would be the RIPE database, but most of the routing registries mirror each other, so you likely are fine using just one. (the daily sync issues aren't there anymore, it's realtime in every case i've observed in modern history). - Jared
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 06:50:25PM -0400, Jared Mauch wrote:
On Mar 18, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Andy Litzinger <Andy.Litzinger@theplatform.com> wrote> > * Should I use a single AS for both North America and European data centers? It will be the same small team managing them today but it's not like the sites are linked together to form any kind of transit network.
I see no issues with a single-AS. What you want to look at is if it makes sense. If you have just one link connecting your EU-North America sites, it may make sense to use a different ASN in the event of that circuit going down.
If you use diverse cable systems, you are likely "OK". Make sure you track what system you are on, when there is an outage, it can take weeks to recover.
In the past, certain peers have required a unified ASN in order to exchange traffic. If you're using separate ASNs, they want the regions treated as separate organizations with regards to routing. (IE, they want you to effectively run them as separate business units.) I do not know how much of that is an issue today but it could be a real PITA in days past. Still, a single ASN in my view is the best choice anyway. -Wayne --- Wayne Bouchard web@typo.org Network Dude http://www.typo.org/~web/
This is not authoritative, but a friend in Australia used to routinely be given IP addresses by his residential ISP which geolocated in the USA and a whois revealed they were owned by a US network. Turns out that US network owned the ISP operating in Australia. I do not recall if the AS was specific to that ISP's operations in Australia. (It's been a few years) npr if traceroutes from canada would pass by the owning network's router's before hopping over to australia.
participants (8)
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Andy Litzinger -
Bill Woodcock -
David Conrad -
Jared Mauch -
Jean-Francois Mezei -
John Curran -
Matt Palmer -
Wayne E Bouchard