To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
<FLAME ON> It has been a trying time at CAIS in the last few days, I'm sure. PSINet dumped all of their DSL customers onto CAIS. Covad is the backhaul provider for them both. Need I say more? Bottom line, I dont know how many thousands of people were without service for more than a day because the whole transfer was botched. We have a situation where we had a DSL connection from PSI and were using our own IP addresses. Problem is that no one changed the routing tables and the packets dead-ended at PSI. Getting CAIS to fix this problem has been a nightmare. At first, PSI didnt stop announcing the routes and now that they have, it seems that CAIS will not announce the routes till Monday becuase "no one at our NOC knows how to do this and the one guy (ONE GUY IN THE WHOLE COMPANY - AND THEY ARE A NATIONWIDE PROVIDER????) who knows how doesn't work weekends." Bottom line from CAIS:" S***W the customers, we dont work weekends. We don't care that your entire business has been dead in the water since Wednesday, you can go to H**L, we'll get to it Monday, if we feel like it." Our lawyers are looking at what actions we can take against them. It may be trickey, but we will try. Needless to say, we will be moving our connection. I have some choice words for them when they send us our first monthly bill, which I'm certain, they will do on weekends just fine. IF SOMEONE IS THERE AT CAIS - GET OFF OF YOUR LAZY A** AND PUT THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS INTO YOUR BGP4 TABLES TODAY (NOT MONDAY, NOT LATER IN THE WEEK)- THERE ARE ABOUT 6 OF YOUR CUSTOMERS (NOT JUST US) WHO ARE DEAD IN THE WATER BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO DO A 20 SECOND JOB. <flame off - sorry to the list for being so loud> John
Welp, you are the one who picked xDSL for your business... On Sun, 13 May 2001, John Palmer (NANOG Acct) wrote:
<FLAME ON>
It has been a trying time at CAIS in the last few days, I'm sure.
PSINet dumped all of their DSL customers onto CAIS. Covad is the backhaul provider for them both. Need I say more?
Bottom line, I dont know how many thousands of people were without service for more than a day because the whole transfer was botched.
We have a situation where we had a DSL connection from PSI and were using our own IP addresses. Problem is that no one changed the routing tables and the packets dead-ended at PSI.
Getting CAIS to fix this problem has been a nightmare. At first, PSI didnt stop announcing the routes and now that they have, it seems that CAIS will not announce the routes till Monday becuase "no one at our NOC knows how to do this and the one guy (ONE GUY IN THE WHOLE COMPANY - AND THEY ARE A NATIONWIDE PROVIDER????) who knows how doesn't work weekends."
Bottom line from CAIS:" S***W the customers, we dont work weekends. We don't care that your entire business has been dead in the water since Wednesday, you can go to H**L, we'll get to it Monday, if we feel like it."
Our lawyers are looking at what actions we can take against them. It may be trickey, but we will try.
Needless to say, we will be moving our connection. I have some choice words for them when they send us our first monthly bill, which I'm certain, they will do on weekends just fine.
IF SOMEONE IS THERE AT CAIS - GET OFF OF YOUR LAZY A** AND PUT THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS INTO YOUR BGP4 TABLES TODAY (NOT MONDAY, NOT LATER IN THE WEEK)- THERE ARE ABOUT 6 OF YOUR CUSTOMERS (NOT JUST US) WHO ARE DEAD IN THE WATER BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO DO A 20 SECOND JOB.
<flame off - sorry to the list for being so loud> John
Why would anyone purchase dsl to run their business on. Let me guess, the price was right. -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Alex Rubenstein Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 9:03 PM To: John Palmer (NANOG Acct) Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS Welp, you are the one who picked xDSL for your business... On Sun, 13 May 2001, John Palmer (NANOG Acct) wrote:
<FLAME ON>
It has been a trying time at CAIS in the last few days, I'm sure.
PSINet dumped all of their DSL customers onto CAIS. Covad is the backhaul provider for them both. Need I say more?
Bottom line, I dont know how many thousands of people were without service for more than a day because the whole transfer was botched.
We have a situation where we had a DSL connection from PSI and were using our own IP addresses. Problem is that no one changed the routing tables and the packets dead-ended at PSI.
Getting CAIS to fix this problem has been a nightmare. At first, PSI didnt stop announcing the routes and now that they have, it seems that CAIS will not announce the routes till Monday becuase "no one at our NOC knows how to do this and the one guy (ONE GUY IN THE WHOLE COMPANY - AND THEY ARE A NATIONWIDE PROVIDER????) who knows how doesn't
work
weekends."
Bottom line from CAIS:" S***W the customers, we dont work weekends. We don't care that your entire business has been dead in the water since Wednesday, you can go to H**L, we'll get to it Monday, if we feel like it."
Our lawyers are looking at what actions we can take against them. It may be trickey, but we will try.
Needless to say, we will be moving our connection. I have some choice words for them when they send us our first monthly bill, which I'm certain, they will do on weekends just fine.
IF SOMEONE IS THERE AT CAIS - GET OFF OF YOUR LAZY A** AND PUT THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS INTO YOUR BGP4 TABLES TODAY (NOT MONDAY, NOT LATER IN THE WEEK)- THERE ARE ABOUT 6 OF YOUR CUSTOMERS (NOT JUST US) WHO ARE DEAD IN THE WATER BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO DO A 20 SECOND JOB.
<flame off - sorry to the list for being so loud> John
You are aware that a good percentage of the T1's you purchase nowadays are just a pair of bonded 768 dsl lines, right? The phone companies have been doing that for over 20 years to save on copper. Hunter Pine Vice President, Network Operations hunter@compuhelp.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Marr" <jmarr@twmaine.com> To: "'John Palmer (NANOG Acct)'" <nanog@adns.net> Cc: <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 9:31 PM Subject: People who purchase unproven technologies to support their Business, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
Why would anyone purchase dsl to run their business on. Let me guess, the price was right.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Alex Rubenstein Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 9:03 PM To: John Palmer (NANOG Acct) Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
Welp, you are the one who picked xDSL for your business...
On Sun, 13 May 2001, John Palmer (NANOG Acct) wrote:
<FLAME ON>
It has been a trying time at CAIS in the last few days, I'm sure.
PSINet dumped all of their DSL customers onto CAIS. Covad is the
provider for them both. Need I say more?
Bottom line, I dont know how many thousands of people were without service for more than a day because the whole transfer was botched.
We have a situation where we had a DSL connection from PSI and were using our own IP addresses. Problem is that no one changed the routing tables and the packets dead-ended at PSI.
Getting CAIS to fix this problem has been a nightmare. At first, PSI didnt stop announcing the routes and now that they have, it seems that CAIS will not announce the routes till Monday becuase "no one at our NOC knows how to do this and the one guy (ONE GUY IN THE WHOLE COMPANY - AND THEY ARE A NATIONWIDE PROVIDER????) who knows how doesn't work weekends."
Bottom line from CAIS:" S***W the customers, we dont work weekends. We don't care that your entire business has been dead in the water since Wednesday, you can go to H**L, we'll get to it Monday, if we feel like it."
Our lawyers are looking at what actions we can take against them. It may be trickey, but we will try.
Needless to say, we will be moving our connection. I have some choice words for them when they send us our first monthly bill, which I'm certain,
backhaul they
will do on weekends just fine.
IF SOMEONE IS THERE AT CAIS - GET OFF OF YOUR LAZY A** AND PUT THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS INTO YOUR BGP4 TABLES TODAY (NOT MONDAY, NOT LATER IN THE WEEK)- THERE ARE ABOUT 6 OF YOUR CUSTOMERS (NOT JUST US) WHO ARE DEAD IN THE WATER BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO DO A 20 SECOND JOB.
<flame off - sorry to the list for being so loud> John
Hunter Pine:
You are aware that a good percentage of the T1's you purchase nowadays are just a pair of bonded 768 dsl lines, right? The phone companies have been doing that for over 20 years to save on copper.
Huh? Just for starters: HDLC circuits run on different voltages, have timing and a bunch of other characteristics that xDSL never heard of. We are seeing BellSouth run 2 wire T1's, which have been working well so far. Still not DSL (approx 900mhz over POTS). --Mike--
On Mon, 14 May 2001, mike harrison wrote:
Hunter Pine:
You are aware that a good percentage of the T1's you purchase nowadays are just a pair of bonded 768 dsl lines, right? The phone companies have been doing that for over 20 years to save on copper.
Huh?
Just for starters: HDLC circuits run on different voltages, have timing and a bunch of other characteristics that xDSL never heard of.
I am confused -- HDLC is a link-level protocol which has nothing to do with voltages, and since you compare it to xDSL you can't have meant HDSL instead. If you meant T1 instead (which can carry 24 DS0s of digitized voice, PPP, or other protocols besides HDLC), remember that a POTS line has very different characteristics than an optical signal, yet aside from the last mile they are mostly carried over fiber, encapsulated in a T1 frame which is encapsulated in a T3 frame, which is encapsulated in OCx, etc. Likewise, a point-to-point T1 doesn't have much in common with an ATM PVC, yet you can carry a T1 across an arbitrarily complex ATM network using circuit emulation. (Yes, I am talking about the US system here, and I know elsewhere is different but a similar concept).
We are seeing BellSouth run 2 wire T1's, which have been working well so far. Still not DSL (approx 900mhz over POTS). --Mike--
AFAIK, the 2-wire T1s are in fact carried over HDSL to the smartjack, and the smartjack extracts the T1 -- I have two of these in my house, using Pairgain (now ADC)'s HiGain Solitaire H2TU.R402 for T1 transport. The URL of the frame describing the product line is at (minus any line breaks or spaces added along the way): http://www6.adc.com/ecom/wps?lineid=OND2737&group=T1%2bTransport%252FHiGain&EXPAND=OND50995&L=EC_List_Group_Index.html&R=WPS_Out_Hierarchy.html&ID=OND50995 This specific card is under HDSL2 RT Modules. John A. Tamplin jat@jaet.org 770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave 770/431-9459 FAX Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
John Tamplin:
the smartjack extracts the T1 -- I have two of these in my house, using Pairgain (now ADC)'s HiGain Solitaire H2TU.R402 for T1 transport. The URL of the frame describing the product line is at (minus any line breaks or spaces added along the way): http://www6.adc.com/ecom/wps?lineid=OND2737&group=T1%2bTransport%252FHiGain&EXPAND=OND50995&L=EC_List_Group_Index.html&R=WPS_Out_Hierarchy.html&ID=OND50995 This specific card is under HDSL2 RT Modules.
Thats the units we have on the wall for some recent T1 installs as well. So far working very well.. Yes, it is HDSL, It's not 2 x 786K sDSL or whatever as stated in the original posted email that I responded to. Whats funny is I got 2 private emails from BellSouth engineering types that did not know they were being installed in this region.
That was my mistake Mike. HDSL is NOT two SDSL lines by definition. It's just two circuits running symmetric 768k DSL (not SDSL) bonded to form a single1.5mb line. My fault for using SDSL (where S is the initial for symmetric) instead of symmetric DSL lines. They are two different things in this case. Sorry for the confusion I started, please resume your regularly scheduled nanog ranting. :) And thanks for the nitpicking Mike. :) Hunter Pine Vice President, Network Operations hunter@compuhelp.com CompuHelp Technologies 11 Lispenard Street New York, NY 10013 212-995-2955 x21 http://www.compuhelp.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike harrison" <meuon@highertech.net> To: "John A. Tamplin" <jat@liveonthenet.com> Cc: "Hunter Pine" <hunter@compuhelp.com>; <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 5:41 PM Subject: 2 Wire T1 - HDLC
John Tamplin:
the smartjack extracts the T1 -- I have two of these in my house, using Pairgain (now ADC)'s HiGain Solitaire H2TU.R402 for T1 transport. The URL of the frame describing the product line is at (minus any line breaks or spaces added along the way):
http://www6.adc.com/ecom/wps?lineid=OND2737&group=T1%2bTransport%252FHiGain& EXPAND=OND50995&L=EC_List_Group_Index.html&R=WPS_Out_Hierarchy.html&ID=OND50 995
This specific card is under HDSL2 RT Modules.
Thats the units we have on the wall for some recent T1 installs as well. So far working very well.. Yes, it is HDSL, It's not 2 x 786K sDSL or whatever as stated in the original posted email that I responded to.
Whats funny is I got 2 private emails from BellSouth engineering types that did not know they were being installed in this region.
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Hunter Pine wrote:
That was my mistake Mike. HDSL is NOT two SDSL lines by definition. It's just two circuits running symmetric 768k DSL (not SDSL) bonded to form a single1.5mb line.
Umm, no. HDSL rides a single pair, and provides more than 1.5Mb. John A. Tamplin jat@jaet.org 770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave 770/431-9459 FAX Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
Actually, you're wrong. I suggest you go to www.paradyne.com and do a search for the DSL Sourcebook. It'll be on the top of the list of hits. Fill out their little form and look at Chapter 3: DSL Basics. The third page down or so, the section is "HDSL Enters the scene". It clearly states that HDSL is a 2 circuit system, 4 lines. You are, however, correct in that HDSL can do more than T1 speeds. It can do E1's as well, and even a little bit faster, up to 1.168mbps per line. (that's roughly 2.33mbps to make myself clear). Hunter Pine Vice President, Network Operations hunter@compuhelp.com CompuHelp Technologies 11 Lispenard Street New York, NY 10013 212-995-2955 x21 http://www.compuhelp.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John A. Tamplin" <jat@liveonthenet.com> To: "Hunter Pine" <hunter@compuhelp.com> Cc: "mike harrison" <meuon@highertech.net>; <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: 2 Wire T1 - HDLC
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Hunter Pine wrote:
That was my mistake Mike. HDSL is NOT two SDSL lines by definition. It's just two circuits running symmetric 768k DSL (not SDSL) bonded to form a single1.5mb line.
Umm, no. HDSL rides a single pair, and provides more than 1.5Mb.
John A. Tamplin jat@jaet.org 770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave 770/431-9459 FAX Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Hunter Pine wrote:
Actually, you're wrong.
I suggest you go to www.paradyne.com and do a search for the DSL Sourcebook. It'll be on the top of the list of hits. Fill out their little form and look at Chapter 3: DSL Basics. The third page down or so, the section is "HDSL Enters the scene". It clearly states that HDSL is a 2 circuit system, 4 lines.
I have two HDSL lines coming into my house, each carrying a separate T1. I have 4 pairs going from the NIU to my wiring closet, with 2 pairs being POTS and 2 pairs being the two HDSL/T1 lines. Each HDSL line takes only a single pair, since as the second one was being installed the bridge clips were pulled on that pair and the first one was operating quite happily all the while. If you go to the URL I gave you, you will see that the HDSL2 RT modules give full-rate T1 access over a single copper pair. Perhaps the confusion is over the HDSL2 standard. It would be nice if you would bother to read the reference I already gave you before you tell me I don't know what I am talking about, especially since I have the device in question installed in my house and I ran the wiring to it myself. John A. Tamplin jat@jaet.org 770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave 770/431-9459 FAX Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
As a follow up - HDSL2 is 2 lines/1 circuit, but is limited to 1.5Mb. /H ----- Original Message ----- From: "John A. Tamplin" <jat@liveonthenet.com> To: "Hunter Pine" <hunter@compuhelp.com> Cc: "mike harrison" <meuon@highertech.net>; <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: 2 Wire T1 - HDLC
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Hunter Pine wrote:
That was my mistake Mike. HDSL is NOT two SDSL lines by definition. It's just two circuits running symmetric 768k DSL (not SDSL) bonded to form a single1.5mb line.
Umm, no. HDSL rides a single pair, and provides more than 1.5Mb.
John A. Tamplin jat@jaet.org 770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave 770/431-9459 FAX Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
Ummm... no.... Unless something has changed in the world. HDSL rides two pairs in full-duplex mode with each pair support 784 kb/s with an 8 kb/s overhead. -Scott On Mon, 14 May 2001, John A. Tamplin wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Hunter Pine wrote:
That was my mistake Mike. HDSL is NOT two SDSL lines by definition. It's just two circuits running symmetric 768k DSL (not SDSL) bonded to form a single1.5mb line.
Umm, no. HDSL rides a single pair, and provides more than 1.5Mb.
John A. Tamplin jat@jaet.org 770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave 770/431-9459 FAX Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 05:41:01PM -0400, mike harrison wrote:
Whats funny is I got 2 private emails from BellSouth engineering types that did not know they were being installed in this region.
Come on, isn't that just a slightly ludicrous remark? ;) Funny enough BellSouth is a huge company (somewhere beyond 100k employees if I remember correctly) and IP geeks in the ISP part of the company many not be intimately familiar with the myriad of products the phone company is brewing up for its various field deployments. To expect that anyone from anywhere is intimately familiar with everything everybody does at any given point in time is just flatout insane ;-).. For all I care, as long as it looks like a T1 at the edge of the network, performs like one, it could be anything in the middle. Including, but not limited to T1 spoofed by means of various PairGain gear, the usual suspects of optical contraptions, MPLS, microwave, RFC1149, or perhaps SneakerNet. But, nice try at a stab, tho. ;) -- Christian Kuhtz <ck@arch.bellsouth.net> -wk, <ck@gnu.org> -hm Sr. Architect, Engineering & Architecture, BellSouth.net, Atlanta, GA, U.S. "I speak for myself only.""
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 05:41:01PM -0400, mike harrison wrote:
Whats funny is I got 2 private emails from BellSouth engineering types that did not know they were being installed in this region.
Come on, isn't that just a slightly ludicrous remark? ;)
Funny enough BellSouth is a huge company (somewhere beyond 100k employees if I remember correctly) and IP geeks in the ISP part of the company many
Hey.. I was not dis'ing BellSouth (for a change), it was just funny that they did not know they were being used. Yes, I know BS is a very big company, I have even done a few sub-contract jobs for them and have friends at BS. It's a bit like the Catholic Church: it's a wonder something that big works so well, let alone at all (that was a complement). But after reviewing all of the wonderful techno-jargon going around, I have come to the conclusion that the same thing applies towards 2 wire/4wire T1's as applied to many technowonders we work with. My summary: "Depending upon the LEC, Engineer for that circuit, equipment used, and evaluation of facilities available for each circuit, and available vendors hardware (PairGain/ADC...) at that moment, as well as other variables, there exists a plethoria of options for providing what various routers see as a standard ESF/B8ZS T1 at their interface. What matters is they see it and it works." --Mike--
I have 2 T1's that are delivered as a single pair per T1. - Jared On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 05:41:01PM -0400, mike harrison wrote:
John Tamplin:
the smartjack extracts the T1 -- I have two of these in my house, using Pairgain (now ADC)'s HiGain Solitaire H2TU.R402 for T1 transport. The URL of the frame describing the product line is at (minus any line breaks or spaces added along the way): http://www6.adc.com/ecom/wps?lineid=OND2737&group=T1%2bTransport%252FHiGain&EXPAND=OND50995&L=EC_List_Group_Index.html&R=WPS_Out_Hierarchy.html&ID=OND50995 This specific card is under HDSL2 RT Modules.
Thats the units we have on the wall for some recent T1 installs as well. So far working very well.. Yes, it is HDSL, It's not 2 x 786K sDSL or whatever as stated in the original posted email that I responded to.
Whats funny is I got 2 private emails from BellSouth engineering types that did not know they were being installed in this region.
-- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from jared@puck.nether.net clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
On Mon, 14 May 2001, mike harrison wrote:
Huh? Just for starters: HDLC circuits run on different voltages, have timing and a bunch of other characteristics that xDSL never heard of.
Except that youre wrong. (Ever heard of SDSL?)
We are seeing BellSouth run 2 wire T1's, which have been working well so far. Still not DSL (approx 900mhz over POTS). --Mike--
I dont think US West has run a 2 wire T1 in 10 years, maybe longer... -Dan
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:46:32AM -0400, Hunter Pine wrote:
You are aware that a good percentage of the T1's you purchase nowadays are just a pair of bonded 768 dsl lines, right? The phone companies have been doing that for over 20 years to save on copper.
I don't think anyone is knocking dsl technology, just the expectation that you can run mission critical services with the level of service you get with dsl. -- John Payne http://www.sackheads.org/jpayne/ john@sackheads.org http://www.sackheads.org/uce/ Fax: +44 870 0547954 To send me mail, use the address in the From: header
For the most part, I don't see that the level of service is much different if you sign up for a business class DSL line. You get an SLA, like a T1 The phone company (usually) gives you a 24 hour turnaround time on line repairs, like a T1 If the ISP itself is incompetent, or just doesn't care about their customers, or is too overwhelmed to manage their business, you can't knock the technology for that. /H ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Payne" <john@sackheads.org> To: "Hunter Pine" <hunter@compuhelp.com> Cc: <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:24 AM Subject: Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support their Business, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:46:32AM -0400, Hunter Pine wrote:
You are aware that a good percentage of the T1's you purchase nowadays
are
just a pair of bonded 768 dsl lines, right? The phone companies have been doing that for over 20 years to save on copper.
I don't think anyone is knocking dsl technology, just the expectation that you can run mission critical services with the level of service you get with dsl.
-- John Payne http://www.sackheads.org/jpayne/ john@sackheads.org http://www.sackheads.org/uce/ Fax: +44 870 0547954 To send me mail, use the address in the From: header
Thats bunk, First off if your an CLEC the relys on LEC for your copper then you have a problem. My experiance with verizon is that you first have to dispatch your own fileds services people, shoot the line and find the issue (4hrs on a good day. second, you call in a ticket (which takes up to 24 hrs to acknowledge). Third, the lec dispatches a tech to investigate, if he cant find the problem the close out your ticket. Four, if problem isnt resolve a "vendor meet" has to be setup, you have to handhold the verizon tech and educate him on dsl.(48hr notice). as for relibility, I cant tell you the number of times a Verizon tech, would be out to install a phone line and steal one of our dsl lines cuase it did not have a tone. -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Hunter Pine Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:28 AM To: John Payne Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support their Business, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS For the most part, I don't see that the level of service is much different if you sign up for a business class DSL line. You get an SLA, like a T1 The phone company (usually) gives you a 24 hour turnaround time on line repairs, like a T1 If the ISP itself is incompetent, or just doesn't care about their customers, or is too overwhelmed to manage their business, you can't knock the technology for that. /H ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Payne" <john@sackheads.org> To: "Hunter Pine" <hunter@compuhelp.com> Cc: <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:24 AM Subject: Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support their Business, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:46:32AM -0400, Hunter Pine wrote:
You are aware that a good percentage of the T1's you purchase nowadays
are
just a pair of bonded 768 dsl lines, right? The phone companies have been doing that for over 20 years to save on copper.
I don't think anyone is knocking dsl technology, just the expectation that you can run mission critical services with the level of service you get with dsl.
-- John Payne http://www.sackheads.org/jpayne/ john@sackheads.org http://www.sackheads.org/uce/ Fax: +44 870 0547954 To send me mail, use the address in the From: header
This post is long, but is not a rant. Joe's post is pretty accurate. I worked for a DSL CLEC for almost three years. Verizon is on the poorer side of ILEC performance, but the same problems happen throughout the US. DSL is certainly not an "unproven" technology. It's very reliable, if we're talking hardware. In favorable circumstances, it is every bit as reliable as DS-1. The vulnerabilities (in order) are: 1) ISP's who deploy DSL are on a very slim margin. They can't afford to be "full service." That doesn't mean that the best DSL ISP's don't provide better service than the mediocre or poor DS-1 ISP's, but don't expect $500/month support for your $150/month line. 2) Data CLEC's who provide most of the lines for independent ISP's have a challenging business model. Northpoint went down hard. That doesn't mean that the others will go down hard, too, but they have the same kind of risks. They needed lots of capital and got most of it through debt financing. 3) ILEC's don't have a clue. Some of them are well-intentioned (although I'm not sure Verizon is on that list), but their techs have years of experience with dial tone. They don't know how to troubleshoot anything but dial tone and DS-1 (which looks very different at the phone closet than CLEC DSL). CLEC's deployed equipment that puts moderate voltage on the line and no tone. ILEC techs are clueless. Note that all ILEC DSL IP services run over lines with dial tone... 4) ILEC's can be obstructionist. This is mostly at the top and middle management, but you see it in the line and lower management every once in a while. Here are some serious recommendations for DSL users (and network operators who deploy DSL can take note): 1) Get it if it's right for you. Your budget will know if it's right. 2) Choose an ISP who cares and is able. That may mean that the price is $500/month instead of $150 or $250/month, but you avoid the DS-1 costs of $1500/month. 3) Have a contingency plan -- perhaps ISDN (shudder) or bonded 56k. 4) Have your access ISP host critical services (or another provider, perhaps the one you've lined up for your contingency plan). 5) Get a line-shared DSL line. (That means that you get phone service over the same copper pair.) The ILEC maintaining the copper knows how to troubleshoot the pair. Anyway, this entire stream is off topic and 90+% of us know it's not the hardware. -steve Definitely my own views, not necessarily those of my current (or former!) employer. On Mon, 14 May 2001, Joe Marr wrote:
Thats bunk,
First off if your an CLEC the relys on LEC for your copper then you have a problem. My experiance with verizon is that you first have to dispatch your own fileds services people, shoot the line and find the issue (4hrs on a good day. second, you call in a ticket (which takes up to 24 hrs to acknowledge). Third, the lec dispatches a tech to investigate, if he cant find the problem the close out your ticket. Four, if problem isnt resolve a "vendor meet" has to be setup, you have to handhold the verizon tech and educate him on dsl.(48hr notice).
as for relibility, I cant tell you the number of times a Verizon tech, would be out to install a phone line and steal one of our dsl lines cuase it did not have a tone.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Hunter Pine Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:28 AM To: John Payne Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support their Business, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
For the most part, I don't see that the level of service is much different if you sign up for a business class DSL line. You get an SLA, like a T1 The phone company (usually) gives you a 24 hour turnaround time on line repairs, like a T1 If the ISP itself is incompetent, or just doesn't care about their customers, or is too overwhelmed to manage their business, you can't knock the technology for that.
/H
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Payne" <john@sackheads.org> To: "Hunter Pine" <hunter@compuhelp.com> Cc: <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:24 AM Subject: Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support their Business, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:46:32AM -0400, Hunter Pine wrote:
You are aware that a good percentage of the T1's you purchase nowadays
are
just a pair of bonded 768 dsl lines, right? The phone companies have been doing that for over 20 years to save on copper.
I don't think anyone is knocking dsl technology, just the expectation that you can run mission critical services with the level of service you get with dsl.
-- John Payne http://www.sackheads.org/jpayne/ john@sackheads.org http://www.sackheads.org/uce/ Fax: +44 870 0547954 To send me mail, use the address in the From: header
[I don't know that I agree that this is off-topic...] Steve Schaefer wrote:
1) ISP's who deploy DSL are on a very slim margin. They can't afford to be "full service." That doesn't mean that the best DSL ISP's don't provide better service than the mediocre or poor DS-1 ISP's, but don't expect $500/month support for your $150/month line.
2) Data CLEC's who provide most of the lines for independent ISP's have a challenging business model. Northpoint went down hard. That doesn't mean that the others will go down hard, too, but they have the same kind of risks. They needed lots of capital and got most of it through debt financing.
Well, wasn't the big problem that the DLECs were having trouble turning around orders, and as a result ended up not getting paid by the ISPs?
3) ILEC's don't have a clue. Some of them are well-intentioned
Which ILECs? I've dealt extensively with Ameritech, although not recently. The owner of Cleveland's largest local ISP lives (and offers service) in Verizon territory (former GTE North) and has lots of "wonderful" things to say about both Verizon and Ameritech. Ameritech was fair-to-middling until being bought by SBC, and they rolled downhill rapidly after that - the only positive thing they are doing is the Project Pronto rollout. I can't say anything about Qwest or Bellsouth, as I've never dealt with them.
than CLEC DSL). CLEC's deployed equipment that puts moderate voltage on the line and no tone. ILEC techs are clueless. Note that all ILEC DSL IP ervices run over lines with dial tone...
Here in Cleveland, Ameritech offers only ADSL. I am not sure they even know what SDSL is. :) They will, however, be happy to sell you 1.5x256 ADSL for $175 a month! -- Tired of Earthlink? Get JustTheNet! Nationwide Dialup, ISDN, DSL, ATM, Frame Relay, T-1, T-3, and more. EARTHLINK AMNESTY PROGRAM: Buy a year, get two months free More info coming soon to http://JustThe.net, or e-mail me! B!ff: K3wl, w3'v3 r00t3D da N@vy... 0h CrAp, INC0M!Ng $%^NO CARRIER
as for relibility, I cant tell you the number of times a Verizon tech, would be out to install a phone line and steal one of our dsl lines cuase it did not have a tone.
As a (serious) question, why not stick a tone on it? How much can an oscillator at the CO plus some trivial passive low pass filters (one set per line), cost? (Or, if you aren't the DLEC, stick it at cust prem). Just don't use the trace tone... (translation to US terminology may be required) -- Alex Bligh Personal Capacity
The main reason not to stick a tone on the DSL line is that the line coding (2B1Q) used by SDSL uses the baseband (low frequency part of the spectrum). For line codings that don't use the baseband (CAP, DMT and variants like G.lite), the DSLAM (telco central office DSL equipment) is always set up so that the DSL can be combined with a voice circuit over the same pair, so it still doesn't put a tone on the line. On Mon, 14 May 2001, Alex Bligh wrote:
as for relibility, I cant tell you the number of times a Verizon tech, would be out to install a phone line and steal one of our dsl lines cuase it did not have a tone.
As a (serious) question, why not stick a tone on it? How much can an oscillator at the CO plus some trivial passive low pass filters (one set per line), cost? (Or, if you aren't the DLEC, stick it at cust prem). Just don't use the trace tone... (translation to US terminology may be required)
-- Alex Bligh Personal Capacity
On Wed, 16 May 2001, Steve Schaefer wrote:
The main reason not to stick a tone on the DSL line is that the line coding (2B1Q) used by SDSL uses the baseband (low frequency part of the spectrum).
For line codings that don't use the baseband (CAP, DMT and variants like G.lite), the DSLAM (telco central office DSL equipment) is always set up so that the DSL can be combined with a voice circuit over the same pair, so it still doesn't put a tone on the line.
I predict great profits for the first person to duct tape 100 'tracer tone-generators' into a 23 inch rack with 48v DC power source. -- The comments and opinions expressed herein are those of the author of this message and may not reflect the policies of the Martin County Board of County Commissioners.
Greg,
I predict great profits for the first person to duct tape 100 'tracer tone-generators' into a 23 inch rack with 48v DC power source.
Not *quite* sure what you mean here, but you only need one tone generator - all the rest can be done with passive components. See (for instance) how tones were generated in the days of mechanical exchanges (*not* one oscillator per line) I thought about this a bit later, and realised that on ADSL (at least) it would be worth looking at the CPE. This is busy generating a linecoding with nothing in the sub 8kHz range. At the other end, anything sub 8kHz is dropped. Getting the CPE (via firmware, or internally) to stick some tone on the line would be trivial. Of course you'd need it as a configurable option in case someone wanted to use it for voice too. -- Alex Bligh Personal Capacity
At 04:46 PM 5/16/01, Greg Maxwell wrote:
On Wed, 16 May 2001, Steve Schaefer wrote:
The main reason not to stick a tone on the DSL line is that the line coding (2B1Q) used by SDSL uses the baseband (low frequency part of the spectrum).
For line codings that don't use the baseband (CAP, DMT and variants like G.lite), the DSLAM (telco central office DSL equipment) is always set up so that the DSL can be combined with a voice circuit over the same pair, so it still doesn't put a tone on the line.
I predict great profits for the first person to duct tape 100 'tracer tone-generators' into a 23 inch rack with 48v DC power source.
Better: a chip with a recorded voice: "This pair is in use" interspersed with a tone. While present baseband signalling may be unable to handle such, it'd be useful if future ones purposely avoided the zero to 5kHz spectrum to allow for such a mechanism. Clearly the telco workers have demonstrated the absolute necessity for such a facility. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel Senie dts@senie.com Amaranth Networks Inc. http://www.amaranth.com
On Wed, 16 May 2001, Greg Maxwell wrote:
On Wed, 16 May 2001, Steve Schaefer wrote:
The main reason not to stick a tone on the DSL line is that the line coding (2B1Q) used by SDSL uses the baseband (low frequency part of the spectrum).
For line codings that don't use the baseband (CAP, DMT and variants like G.lite), the DSLAM (telco central office DSL equipment) is always set up so that the DSL can be combined with a voice circuit over the same pair, so it still doesn't put a tone on the line.
I predict great profits for the first person to duct tape 100 'tracer tone-generators' into a 23 inch rack with 48v DC power source.
-- The comments and opinions expressed herein are those of the author of this message and may not reflect the policies of the Martin County Board of County Commissioners.
I predict great great headache for the same person. Typically, the line-tech is looking for those tones and this will make your lines even more likely to be fudged with. --- John Fraizer EnterZone, Inc
> I don't think anyone is knocking dsl technology, just the expectation > that you can run mission critical services with the level of service you > get with dsl. Yes, this has nothing whatsoever to do with technology. Just money. The question of whether you feel like trusting your business to someone you're giving $1500/month, or whether you feel like trusting your business to someone you're giving $150/month. Or $29.95/month. TANSTAAFL. You get what you pay for. And in my own opinion, NANOG isn't the forum for whines from the $29.95/month crowd. Of course, others seem to disagree. -Bill
Why would anyone purchase dsl to run their business on. Let me guess, the price was right.
I would call it a proven technology, but a very poor business model. And xDSL is definately not for mission critical operations. And the list of failed local xDSL providers gets longer. Luckily we stayed out of it, and are still in business as are our customers.
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:53:50AM -0400, mike harrison wrote:
Why would anyone purchase dsl to run their business on. Let me guess, the price was right.
I would call it a proven technology, but a very poor business model. And xDSL is definately not for mission critical operations.
x is sometimes "H". Are you sure you want to say HDSL is not for mission-critical operations?
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Shawn McMahon wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:53:50AM -0400, mike harrison wrote:
Why would anyone purchase dsl to run their business on. Let me guess, the price was right.
I would call it a proven technology, but a very poor business model. And xDSL is definately not for mission critical operations.
x is sometimes "H".
Are you sure you want to say HDSL is not for mission-critical operations?
Setting a trap here? xDSL, where x = S/H, as a physical carrier (and set of modulation schemes) is a tried and proven technoligy, often used today by telcos to carry T1s over longer spans with less need for repeating equipment. The model of xDSL internet service (differing from xDSL as a way to carry T1s), on the other hand....
At 10:25 AM 5/14/01, Greg Maxwell wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Shawn McMahon wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:53:50AM -0400, mike harrison wrote:
Why would anyone purchase dsl to run their business on. Let me
guess, the
price was right.
I would call it a proven technology, but a very poor business model. And xDSL is definately not for mission critical operations.
x is sometimes "H".
Are you sure you want to say HDSL is not for mission-critical operations?
Setting a trap here?
xDSL, where x = S/H, as a physical carrier (and set of modulation schemes) is a tried and proven technoligy, often used today by telcos to carry T1s over longer spans with less need for repeating equipment.
Heh, I've had Verizon linemen yank HDSL-implemented T1 circuits because there was no dialtone. The ADSL from Verizon might actually be more reliable than their T1 service in areas where there's a shortage of pairs. After all, there WILL be a dialtone (assuming the ADSL is piggy-backing on a voice circuit) and the odds are they're not going to pull the circuit. The xDSL standards folks probably should sacrifice a bit of bandwidth at the low end of the spectrum to generate an appropriate audio tone, letting the line workers know that the circuit IS in use. Clearly the absence of such has cost many folks a great deal of aggrevation, lost revenues, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel Senie dts@senie.com Amaranth Networks Inc. http://www.amaranth.com
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:53:50AM -0400, mike harrison wrote:
Why would anyone purchase dsl to run their business on. Let me guess,
the
price was right.
I would call it a proven technology, but a very poor business model. And xDSL is definately not for mission critical operations.
x is sometimes "H".
Are you sure you want to say HDSL is not for mission-critical operations?
Very well put. I do not think however that many cosider HDSL to be part to the DSL family (mainlydue to the fact that it often uses two pairs instead of one). I think if we are talking xDSL, HDSL is in most cases excluded from the picture.
And the list of failed local xDSL providers gets longer. Luckily we stayed out of it, and are still in business as are our customers.
Thats not a fair statement. It's quite easy to stay in business offering xDSL services; charge more than your competitors. Perhaps you won't get as many customers as your competitors, but you will have a service offering that you can make money off of. It's what we did, and we still here and not in danger of going anywhere.
On Mon, 14 May 2001, mike harrison wrote:
Why would anyone purchase dsl to run their business on. Let me guess, the price was right. I would call it a proven technology, but a very poor business model. And xDSL is definately not for mission critical operations.
Because... -Dan
Joe, You have to look at economies of scale. A small to medium sized business cannot afford to colocate or purchase more reliable bandwidth. Since their business does not rely on thier line, they can do without more expensive connection. Second, they may be upgrading from other technologies such as ISDN or POTS. DSL is far from a reliable technology, yet quite far from an unreliable technology. I sit on the fence in regrards to its performance and other characteristics. The work that I have done working for a CLEC has shown me that a line that works well from the start is likely to stay up for weeks/months. -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Alex Rubenstein Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 9:03 PM To: John Palmer (NANOG Acct) Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS Welp, you are the one who picked xDSL for your business... On Sun, 13 May 2001, John Palmer (NANOG Acct) wrote:
<FLAME ON>
It has been a trying time at CAIS in the last few days, I'm sure.
PSINet dumped all of their DSL customers onto CAIS. Covad is the backhaul provider for them both. Need I say more?
Bottom line, I dont know how many thousands of people were without service for more than a day because the whole transfer was botched.
We have a situation where we had a DSL connection from PSI and were using our own IP addresses. Problem is that no one changed the routing tables and the packets dead-ended at PSI.
Getting CAIS to fix this problem has been a nightmare. At first, PSI didnt stop announcing the routes and now that they have, it seems that CAIS will not announce the routes till Monday becuase "no one at our NOC knows how to do this and the one guy (ONE GUY IN THE WHOLE COMPANY - AND THEY ARE A NATIONWIDE PROVIDER????) who knows how doesn't
work
weekends."
Bottom line from CAIS:" S***W the customers, we dont work weekends. We don't care that your entire business has been dead in the water since Wednesday, you can go to H**L, we'll get to it Monday, if we feel like it."
Our lawyers are looking at what actions we can take against them. It may be trickey, but we will try.
Needless to say, we will be moving our connection. I have some choice words for them when they send us our first monthly bill, which I'm certain, they will do on weekends just fine.
IF SOMEONE IS THERE AT CAIS - GET OFF OF YOUR LAZY A** AND PUT THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS INTO YOUR BGP4 TABLES TODAY (NOT MONDAY, NOT LATER IN THE WEEK)- THERE ARE ABOUT 6 OF YOUR CUSTOMERS (NOT JUST US) WHO ARE DEAD IN THE WATER BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO DO A 20 SECOND JOB.
<flame off - sorry to the list for being so loud> John
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:16:56AM -0400, Wojtek Zlobicki wrote:
Joe,
You have to look at economies of scale. A small to medium sized business cannot afford to colocate or purchase more reliable bandwidth. Since their business does not rely on thier line, they can do without more expensive connection. Second, they may be upgrading from other technologies such as ISDN or POTS. DSL is far from a reliable technology, yet quite far from an unreliable technology. I sit on the fence in regrards to its performance and other characteristics. The work that I have done working for a CLEC has shown me that a line that works well from the start is likely to stay up for weeks/months.
However, if a small to medium sized business has made the decision to go for a cheap option rather than pay for service and reliability, should they then come whining in inappropriate fora when their connectivity goes down? -- John Payne http://www.sackheads.org/jpayne/ john@sackheads.org http://www.sackheads.org/uce/ Fax: +44 870 0547954 To send me mail, use the address in the From: header
"Since their business does not rely on thier line, they can do without more expensive connection." Right, absolutely. If I was a small printer in Albany, New York, and I wanted a cheap affordable connection to browse the web on, or send some email then yes, xDSL or Cable would be my choice. But if I had a businees that relied on the internet, and the impact of an outage would severly hamper my ability to conduct such business. Then the last thing I would do is rely on xDSL (not including HDSL which is the technology the some T1's are ran over). Besides, if you need a /23 routed for you, then you are a small to medium size business. -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Wojtek Zlobicki Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:17 AM To: jmarr@twmaine.com; 'John Palmer (NANOG Acct)' Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support their Business, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS Joe, You have to look at economies of scale. A small to medium sized business cannot afford to colocate or purchase more reliable bandwidth. Since their business does not rely on thier line, they can do without more expensive connection. Second, they may be upgrading from other technologies such as ISDN or POTS. DSL is far from a reliable technology, yet quite far from an unreliable technology. I sit on the fence in regrards to its performance and other characteristics. The work that I have done working for a CLEC has shown me that a line that works well from the start is likely to stay up for weeks/months. -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Alex Rubenstein Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 9:03 PM To: John Palmer (NANOG Acct) Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS Welp, you are the one who picked xDSL for your business... On Sun, 13 May 2001, John Palmer (NANOG Acct) wrote:
<FLAME ON>
It has been a trying time at CAIS in the last few days, I'm sure.
PSINet dumped all of their DSL customers onto CAIS. Covad is the backhaul provider for them both. Need I say more?
Bottom line, I dont know how many thousands of people were without service for more than a day because the whole transfer was botched.
We have a situation where we had a DSL connection from PSI and were using our own IP addresses. Problem is that no one changed the routing tables and the packets dead-ended at PSI.
Getting CAIS to fix this problem has been a nightmare. At first, PSI didnt stop announcing the routes and now that they have, it seems that CAIS will not announce the routes till Monday becuase "no one at our NOC knows how to do this and the one guy (ONE GUY IN THE WHOLE COMPANY - AND THEY ARE A NATIONWIDE PROVIDER????) who knows how doesn't
work
weekends."
Bottom line from CAIS:" S***W the customers, we dont work weekends. We don't care that your entire business has been dead in the water since Wednesday, you can go to H**L, we'll get to it Monday, if we feel like it."
Our lawyers are looking at what actions we can take against them. It may be trickey, but we will try.
Needless to say, we will be moving our connection. I have some choice words for them when they send us our first monthly bill, which I'm certain, they will do on weekends just fine.
IF SOMEONE IS THERE AT CAIS - GET OFF OF YOUR LAZY A** AND PUT THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS INTO YOUR BGP4 TABLES TODAY (NOT MONDAY, NOT LATER IN THE WEEK)- THERE ARE ABOUT 6 OF YOUR CUSTOMERS (NOT JUST US) WHO ARE DEAD IN THE WATER BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO DO A 20 SECOND JOB.
<flame off - sorry to the list for being so loud> John
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:16:56AM -0400, Wojtek Zlobicki wrote:
Joe,
You have to look at economies of scale. A small to medium sized business cannot afford to colocate or purchase more reliable bandwidth.
That is utter bullshit. Maybe they can't afford to colocate with Exodus but there are definitely many places that a small business can EASILY afford to colocate. --Adam
You have to look at economies of scale. A small to medium sized business cannot afford to colocate or purchase more reliable bandwidth.
That is utter bullshit. Maybe they can't afford to colocate with Exodus but there are definitely many places that a small business can EASILY afford to colocate. --Adam
Two of the most novel and low-cost colo sites that have been announced to this list are: ) the un-heated, no existing electrical, mind the hay, cows, and various other flora & fauna - Barn in northern Utah. ) the trunk of a Buick RoadMaster (supports wireless mobil access and its own power generator!) and then there was the call to revamp MIR, before its untimly demise. as with your bandwidth selections, your colo milage will vary. --bill
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 10:17:53AM -0700, Adam McKenna wrote:
That is utter bullshit. Maybe they can't afford to colocate with Exodus but there are definitely many places that a small business can EASILY afford to colocate.
Which doesn't solve the problem of high-speed access to their own equipment.
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:16:56AM -0400, Wojtek Zlobicki wrote:
Joe,
You have to look at economies of scale. A small to medium sized business cannot afford to colocate or purchase more reliable bandwidth.
That is utter bullshit. Maybe they can't afford to colocate with Exodus but there are definitely many places that a small business can EASILY afford to colocate.
How many medium sized businesses (lets say under 50 or 100 people) do you know that are willing to or can afford colocation. Many of these companies have only one server on prem. For customers such as this, they not only need a way to host a small webpage (receiving a hit a day if they are lucky) but also need internet access. It is customers like this for whom DSL is appropriate. I should have been more clear on the case of the company needing internet access. The problem with going with some of these fly buy night hosting operations is that some are using DSL themselves! I don't know much about the colocation market in the US. But I do know that it is difficult to find a reasonable colocation facility here in Canada for under $500-1000 a month (I may be wrong here, I have not looked at colocation pricing in a while).
On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 10:18:30AM -0400, Wojtek Zlobicki wrote:
How many medium sized businesses (lets say under 50 or 100 people) do you know that are willing to or can afford colocation. Many of these companies have only one server on prem. For customers such as this, they not only need a way to host a small webpage (receiving a hit a day if they are lucky) but also need internet access. It is customers like this for whom DSL is appropriate. I should have been more clear on the case of the company needing internet access. The problem with going with some of these fly buy night hosting operations is that some are using DSL themselves!
Fair enough. But the bottom line is this: If you're paying for the cheapest connectivity that suits your basic needs, you're going to get the cheapest. Expecting it to be as good as the more expensive solutions is unrealistic.
I don't know much about the colocation market in the US. But I do know that it is difficult to find a reasonable colocation facility here in Canada for under $500-1000 a month (I may be wrong here, I have not looked at colocation pricing in a while).
Well, it's a trade-off. If your website represents a significant revenue source for your company, you can justify spending the money to put it somewhere reliable. If you're only getting a couple of hits a day, it probably doesn't matter all -that- much if you do lose your connectivity for even several days. -c
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Wojtek Zlobicki wrote:
performance and other characteristics. The work that I have done working for a CLEC has shown me that a line that works well from the start is likely to stay up for weeks/months.
The DSL from work to home has been up 24/7 for about 4 years now without a single interruption. Quite different from our PTP T1's which each go down regularly. -Dan
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Wojtek Zlobicki wrote:
performance and other characteristics. The work that I have done working for a CLEC has shown me that a line that works well from the start is
I have never had any line problems with my DSL connection. Never had to have anyone come out and repair it and its never been down due to a line isssue and we've had the connection since Jan 2000. All of the issues have to due with mess-ups by PSINet or Covad. PSINet had the wrong IP address information in their database and they sent that over to CAIS when they transferred the account. Thats what started it all. I have to say that I don't see where DSL is a flawed technology, just that some of the players in the game are not very good at providing support. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Hollis" <goemon@anime.net> To: "Wojtek Zlobicki" <wojtekz@idirect.com> Cc: <jmarr@twmaine.com>; "'John Palmer (NANOG Acct)'" <nanog@adns.net>; <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 12:40 PM Subject: Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support theirBusiness, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CAREOF YOUR CUSTOMERS likely
to stay up for weeks/months.
The DSL from work to home has been up 24/7 for about 4 years now without a single interruption. Quite different from our PTP T1's which each go down regularly.
-Dan
The interesting thing, is that this has absolutely nothing to do with Technology, good or bad. It has to do with products. xDSL is normally considered a product for the home or small business. It is supported and priced that way. For most providers, that includes small, static IP blocks, assigned out of the providers own space, in a systematic fashion. The "T-1" product is usually something quite different, even if it is provided over an HDSL line. This product usually includes BGP support, greater flexibility for using your own address space, and the chance to talk to engineers with greater clue. There is usually a big price difference. Why? DSL is a mass market product, and folks want to package it in a certain way. T-1 is a business product, and you're paying for better service. It's as simple as that. Don't fall all over the technical details in this case, as this hinges on folks using a Home/SOHO product for mission critical business stuff. You might save some money in the short run, but it's a poor investment. - Daniel Golding
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of John Palmer (NANOG Acct) Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:00 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Dont Knock The Technology, was Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support theirBusiness, and whine about it.
I have never had any line problems with my DSL connection. Never had to have anyone come out and repair it and its never been down due to a line isssue and we've had the connection since Jan 2000.
All of the issues have to due with mess-ups by PSINet or Covad. PSINet had the wrong IP address information in their database and they sent that over to CAIS when they transferred the account. Thats what started it all.
I have to say that I don't see where DSL is a flawed technology, just that some of the players in the game are not very good at providing support. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Hollis" <goemon@anime.net> To: "Wojtek Zlobicki" <wojtekz@idirect.com> Cc: <jmarr@twmaine.com>; "'John Palmer (NANOG Acct)'" <nanog@adns.net>; <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 12:40 PM Subject: Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support theirBusiness, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CAREOF YOUR CUSTOMERS
performance and other characteristics. The work that I have done working for a CLEC has shown me that a line that works well from the start is
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Wojtek Zlobicki wrote: likely
to stay up for weeks/months.
The DSL from work to home has been up 24/7 for about 4 years now without a single interruption. Quite different from our PTP T1's which each go down regularly.
-Dan
Absolutely correct, but if I was a T1 customer paying $1500 a month, you best believe my issue would get resolved. xDSL companies are far from being customer oriented, they only care about the number of lines installed per month. -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Dan Hollis Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 9:46 PM To: Alex Rubenstein Cc: John Palmer (NANOG Acct); nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS On Sun, 13 May 2001, Alex Rubenstein wrote:
Welp, you are the one who picked xDSL for your business...
The fact its a BGP problem means it has nothing to do with DSL. -Dan
On Sun, 13 May 2001, Joe Marr wrote:
Absolutely correct, but if I was a T1 customer paying $1500 a month, you best believe my issue would get resolved. xDSL companies are far from being customer oriented, they only care about the number of lines installed per month.
I believe CAIS also sells T1s. The fact they appear to have only a single BGP engineer and they dont appear to even be able to call them in means we wont be buying a T1 or anything else for that matter from CAIS anytime soon, possibly ever. -Dan
On Sun, 13 May 2001, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2001, Joe Marr wrote:
Absolutely correct, but if I was a T1 customer paying $1500 a month, you best believe my issue would get resolved. xDSL companies are far from being customer oriented, they only care about the number of lines installed per month.
I believe CAIS also sells T1s. The fact they appear to have only a single BGP engineer and they dont appear to even be able to call them in means we wont be buying a T1 or anything else for that matter from CAIS anytime soon, possibly ever.
It makes you long for the Bob Gibson days. CAIS has been in a constant swirl down the shitter since 95. Andy xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Andy Dills 301-682-9972 Xecunet, LLC www.xecu.net xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Dialup * Webhosting * E-Commerce * High-Speed Access
My condolences to you and your situation. This post would be more appropriate for inet-access or perhaps as an email to the executive staff of CAIS. This is NANOG. End user DSL support (and lack thereof) problems don't belong on this list. I appreciate your effort to publically shame them into helping you or merely as a form of payback. However, every other network operator (backbone operator) other than CAIS could do without the rant. C'mon, you're wearing out my "D" key. ;) Mike. On Sun, 13 May 2001, John Palmer (NANOG Acct) wrote:
<FLAME ON>
It has been a trying time at CAIS in the last few days, I'm sure.
PSINet dumped all of their DSL customers onto CAIS. Covad is the backhaul provider for them both. Need I say more?
Bottom line, I dont know how many thousands of people were without service for more than a day because the whole transfer was botched.
We have a situation where we had a DSL connection from PSI and were using our own IP addresses. Problem is that no one changed the routing tables and the packets dead-ended at PSI.
Getting CAIS to fix this problem has been a nightmare. At first, PSI didnt stop announcing the routes and now that they have, it seems that CAIS will not announce the routes till Monday becuase "no one at our NOC knows how to do this and the one guy (ONE GUY IN THE WHOLE COMPANY - AND THEY ARE A NATIONWIDE PROVIDER????) who knows how doesn't work weekends."
Bottom line from CAIS:" S***W the customers, we dont work weekends. We don't care that your entire business has been dead in the water since Wednesday, you can go to H**L, we'll get to it Monday, if we feel like it."
Our lawyers are looking at what actions we can take against them. It may be trickey, but we will try.
Needless to say, we will be moving our connection. I have some choice words for them when they send us our first monthly bill, which I'm certain, they will do on weekends just fine.
IF SOMEONE IS THERE AT CAIS - GET OFF OF YOUR LAZY A** AND PUT THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS INTO YOUR BGP4 TABLES TODAY (NOT MONDAY, NOT LATER IN THE WEEK)- THERE ARE ABOUT 6 OF YOUR CUSTOMERS (NOT JUST US) WHO ARE DEAD IN THE WATER BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO DO A 20 SECOND JOB.
<flame off - sorry to the list for being so loud> John
+------------------- H U R R I C A N E - E L E C T R I C -------------------+ | Mike Leber Direct Internet Connections Voice 510 580 4100 | | Hurricane Electric Web Hosting Colocation Fax 510 580 4151 | | mleber@he.net http://www.he.net | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
On Sun, 13 May 2001, Mike Leber wrote:
My condolences to you and your situation. This post would be more appropriate for inet-access or perhaps as an email to the executive staff of CAIS. This is NANOG. End user DSL support (and lack thereof) problems don't belong on this list. I appreciate your effort to publically shame ^^^^^^^^^^ Ooops, this should have read "can understand". Wouldn't do it, don't want to encourage it, though I can understand it.
them into helping you or merely as a form of payback. However, every other network operator (backbone operator) other than CAIS could do without the rant. C'mon, you're wearing out my "D" key. ;)
Mike.
On Sun, 13 May 2001, John Palmer (NANOG Acct) wrote:
<FLAME ON>
It has been a trying time at CAIS in the last few days, I'm sure.
PSINet dumped all of their DSL customers onto CAIS. Covad is the backhaul provider for them both. Need I say more?
Bottom line, I dont know how many thousands of people were without service for more than a day because the whole transfer was botched.
We have a situation where we had a DSL connection from PSI and were using our own IP addresses. Problem is that no one changed the routing tables and the packets dead-ended at PSI.
Getting CAIS to fix this problem has been a nightmare. At first, PSI didnt stop announcing the routes and now that they have, it seems that CAIS will not announce the routes till Monday becuase "no one at our NOC knows how to do this and the one guy (ONE GUY IN THE WHOLE COMPANY - AND THEY ARE A NATIONWIDE PROVIDER????) who knows how doesn't work weekends."
Bottom line from CAIS:" S***W the customers, we dont work weekends. We don't care that your entire business has been dead in the water since Wednesday, you can go to H**L, we'll get to it Monday, if we feel like it."
Our lawyers are looking at what actions we can take against them. It may be trickey, but we will try.
Needless to say, we will be moving our connection. I have some choice words for them when they send us our first monthly bill, which I'm certain, they will do on weekends just fine.
IF SOMEONE IS THERE AT CAIS - GET OFF OF YOUR LAZY A** AND PUT THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS INTO YOUR BGP4 TABLES TODAY (NOT MONDAY, NOT LATER IN THE WEEK)- THERE ARE ABOUT 6 OF YOUR CUSTOMERS (NOT JUST US) WHO ARE DEAD IN THE WATER BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO DO A 20 SECOND JOB.
<flame off - sorry to the list for being so loud> John
+------------------- H U R R I C A N E - E L E C T R I C -------------------+ | Mike Leber Direct Internet Connections Voice 510 580 4100 | | Hurricane Electric Web Hosting Colocation Fax 510 580 4151 | | mleber@he.net http://www.he.net | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
+------------------- H U R R I C A N E - E L E C T R I C -------------------+ | Mike Leber Direct Internet Connections Voice 510 580 4100 | | Hurricane Electric Web Hosting Colocation Fax 510 580 4151 | | mleber@he.net http://www.he.net | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
they moved an entire customer segment, dsl, on short notice and in one day. whew! shame there were glitches, but i'm impressed. randy
Randy Bush wrote:
they moved an entire customer segment, dsl, on short notice and in one day. whew! shame there were glitches, but i'm impressed.
It's impressive, sure. But you and I both know that you can't rely on things to go flawlessly, especially not when you're moving lots of customers. The post-migration support has to be there. If it makes anyone feel better, I don't think things would have been different if T-1's were being moved, since CAIS was involved. Since attempting to get in touch with them, I've not heard anything positive about the company. -- Tired of Earthlink? Get JustTheNet! Nationwide Dialup, ISDN, DSL, ATM, Frame Relay, T-1, T-3, and more. EARTHLINK AMNESTY PROGRAM: Buy a year, get two months free More info coming soon to http://JustThe.net, or e-mail me!
On Sun, 13 May 2001, John Palmer (NANOG Acct) wrote:
PSINet dumped all of their DSL customers onto CAIS. Covad is the backhaul provider for them both. Need I say more?
Bottom line, I dont know how many thousands of people were without service for more than a day because the whole transfer was botched.
Sounds like another reason why you're putting your livelihood at risk if you're relying on DSL and/or a single connection for your business needs. Here endeth the lesson. -- Douglas A. Dever Network Engineering Manager dever@verio.net "We don't care. We don't have to. We're the Phone Company." -- Lily Tomlin, Saturday Night Live. 9/18/76
participants (28)
-
Adam McKenna -
Alex Bligh -
Alex Rubenstein -
Andy Dills -
Bill Woodcock -
bmanning＠vacation.karoshi.com -
Christian Kuhtz -
Clayton Fiske -
Dan Hollis -
Daniel Golding -
Daniel Senie -
Douglas A. Dever -
Greg Maxwell -
Hunter Pine -
Jared Mauch -
Joe Marr -
John A. Tamplin -
John Fraizer -
John Palmer (NANOG Acct) -
John Payne -
mike harrison -
Mike Leber -
Randy Bush -
Scott Madley -
Shawn McMahon -
Steve Schaefer -
Steve Sobol -
Wojtek Zlobicki