On Sep 7, 2023, at 10:25 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:

...

*READ MORE <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://nanog.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u%3D4d708401d0e69d9dc73d1c204%26id%3Dd77e95d2fb%26e%3De429f79d5a&source=gmail&ust=1694187666719000&usg=AOvVaw3Cfz_DNu6fUMvOglI_i3nd>Last

can we please get URLs without all the invasive tracking?

list-manage.com is Mailchimp; not sure it's possible to turn off tracking when using an ESP like that. :-( Anne -- Anne P. Mitchell Attorney at Law Email Law & Policy Attorney CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP) Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law) Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)

It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:

https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/

"Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking, Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account activity thresholds are met."

Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that MailChimp inserts by default, too:

https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/

as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump at all. nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good. randy

What network does Nanog-news operate? Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement). Warm regards, -M< On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 20:52 Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:

Randy,

You're right, the problem is not technical. It's a choice to click the links or not. NANOG does not have to sanitize links for you. Those emails do not have to be read, and no one is stopping you from filtering them out. For you to say, "my privacy has been sold", is simply not true.

Ryan

------------------------------ *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> on behalf of Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> *Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 5:25 PM *To:* John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> *Subject:* Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for Upcoming ISOC Course + More

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.

...

It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fenable-and-view-click-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pw6uDgHDzT%2BavOz1jYAbG4VzTyP0en0oiuBq0PmTtVI%3D&reserved=0 <https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/>

...

"Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking, Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account activity thresholds are met."

Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that MailChimp inserts by default, too:

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fabout-open-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iqkTsuhDFD3poxVltrN4x%2FWY6eXpbIivWxf4VAWcXKA%3D&reserved=0 <https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/>

as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump at all.

nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.

randy

Martin and Tom, How is it a private marketing initiative exactly if the links go to stories on NANOG's website? Are you saying the very org that brings us together, is not allowed to spur discussion based on newsletter content and cannot provide us with updates and/or reminders about various things? Y'all have been making a mountain out of a molehill. Ryan ________________________________ From: Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2023 9:30:13 AM To: Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com> Cc: Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for Upcoming ISOC Course + More Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. What network does Nanog-news operate? Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement). This is the right comment. The NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines ( https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ ) are fairly clear about this. Posts to NANOG’s Mailing List should be focused on operational and technical content only, as described by the NANOG Bylaws. Using the NANOG Mailing List as a source for private marketing initiatives, or product marketing of any kind, is prohibited. Sending this type of message to nanog@ is not appropriate, by our own rules. This issue will be raised at the next members meeting. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 9:39 PM Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com<mailto:hannigan@gmail.com>> wrote: What network does Nanog-news operate? Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement). Warm regards, -M< On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 20:52 Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org<mailto:ryan@rkhtech.org>> wrote: Randy, You're right, the problem is not technical. It's a choice to click the links or not. NANOG does not have to sanitize links for you. Those emails do not have to be read, and no one is stopping you from filtering them out. For you to say, "my privacy has been sold", is simply not true. Ryan ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org<mailto:rkhtech.org@nanog.org>> on behalf of Randy Bush <randy@psg.com<mailto:randy@psg.com>> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 5:25 PM To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com<mailto:gnu@toad.com>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for Upcoming ISOC Course + More Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.

It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fenable-and-view-click-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pw6uDgHDzT%2BavOz1jYAbG4VzTyP0en0oiuBq0PmTtVI%3D&reserved=0<https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/>

"Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking, Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account activity thresholds are met."

Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that MailChimp inserts by default, too:

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fabout-open-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iqkTsuhDFD3poxVltrN4x%2FWY6eXpbIivWxf4VAWcXKA%3D&reserved=0<https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/>

as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump at all. nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good. randy

Inline On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 09:51 Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:

Martin and Tom,

How is it a private marketing initiative exactly if the links go to stories on NANOG's website?

This seems deliberately obtuse. It is a private marketing initiative exactly if the links go to private marketing stories on NANOG's website. Are you saying the very org that brings us together, is not allowed to spur

discussion based on newsletter content and cannot provide us with updates and/or reminders about various things?

More deliberate and fairly unhelpful tongue in cheekery. A link to The NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines was cited. That was helpful and authoritative. If the marketing arm of NANOG wishes to change the Guidelines, that will presumably take more formalities than some snarky remarks.

Y'all have been making a mountain out of a molehill.

Last I looked, NANOG members have been making mountains out of any handy materials (or none at all) for several decades now. Folksy condescension is no more welcome or constructive than it has ever been. And FTR, Tom and Marty make most sense to me in this thread. So far. Springer

Ryan

------------------------------ *From:* Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> *Sent:* Saturday, September 9, 2023 9:30:13 AM *To:* Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com> *Cc:* Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>

*Subject:* Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for Upcoming ISOC Course + More

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.

What network does Nanog-news operate?

...

Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).

This is the right comment.

The NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines ( https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ ) are fairly clear about this.

Posts to NANOG’s Mailing List should be focused on operational and

...

technical content only, as described by the NANOG Bylaws. Using the NANOG Mailing List as a source for private marketing initiatives, or product marketing of any kind, is prohibited.

Sending this type of message to nanog@ is not appropriate, by our own rules. This issue will be raised at the next members meeting.

On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 9:39 PM Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com> wrote:

...

What network does Nanog-news operate?

Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).

Warm regards,

-M<

Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:

For you to say, "my privacy has been sold", is simply not true.

I agree with you somewhat about tracking links. They only spy on a person when that person tries to follow them. I do find it much less useful to read mailing lists that include references to external resources that I decline to access, because I don't want to follow bugged links. But the "web bugs" that I mentioned as a second default-on Mailchimp tracking technology ARE specifically designed to be triggered any time a recipient reads a message in an HTML-based web browser. Back when postal mail was the default, senders had no idea whether the recipient opened, read, or forwarded a letter, versus tossing it into the fireplace as kindling. Society carried forward that expectation when postal mail was gradually replaced by electronic mail. Ordinary email senders don't know if you have read their message (unless they get social clues from your subsequent actions, just as with paper mail). Tracking was never part of the Internet email protocols; it was glued-on by abusing HTML email features and making unique URLs sent to each recipient, whose corresponding web server logs when they are accessed. These email tracking technologies deliberately violate the social expectation that reading a letter is a private act. They produce detailed records of the private, in-home or at-work activities of every recipient. They do all this covertly; you will not find a MailChimp mailing list message plainly telling you, "If you want to safeguard your privacy as an email reader, do not open these messages, because we have filled them with spyware." That would produce too many unsubscribes and too much outrage. Instead, a recipient has to be technically sophisticated to even notice that it's happening. (Many bulk email senders also don't know that their emails have spyware quietly inserted into them as they are distributed. I have engaged on this topic with many nonprofit CEOs and marketing executives, who really had no idea.) Those detailed email-reading and link-clicking records are not just accessible to the sender. There's an agency problem. They are kept and stored and sold by the intermediary (MailChimp), both individually and in bulk. They are accessible to any government that wants to ask, without a warrant, without probable cause, in bulk or individually, since they are "third-party" records about you, like your banking records or license-plate-reader records. They are accessible to private investigators via data brokers. They are accessible to any business that offers a sufficiently attractive deal to MailChimp -- places like Google or Facebook who make billions of dollars a year from tracking people to manipulate them with advertising. And wouldn't you like to know just which emails your competitors' engineers and executives are reading, and when, and where, and how many times, and whether they forwarded the messages? (I've often wanted the Google Detective Agency, that I could merely pay to tell me what my wife or my competitor or that rude guy who insulted me is searching for on Google, what web pages they are looking at, what emails they are reading or sending, and exactly where they are navigating in their car or on their bike or on transit. Google has all this information; why won't they sell it to me? They definitely sell it to the government, so why not to me? It's amazing to me that people treat Google like Santa Claus giving them free gifts, when it's really like an NSA.gov that is unencumbered by laws or oversight. MailChimp isn't as bad as Google. Its scope is smaller, but its defaults are deliberately bad, and it's created quite a honeypot of trillions of records about billions of people. The point is that besides being a gross violation of the personal privacy of the home and office, this data also has real commercial value. I suggest that as a technically aware organization, NANOG.org should not be creating detailed spy dossiers on its members who read emails, and then letting its subcontractor MailChimp sell or trade that info out into the world. John Gilmore

Randy, We do not buy, sell or share any data or personal information on anyone. MailChimp is only used to get data points on the effectiveness of our newsletter. We also try to get data on the effectiveness of our social media efforts. We do not look at individual behavior, only group anonymous data. If you wish to by-pass the "trackers," just go to https://nanog.org/stories/ Anything that we send out in our newsletter or social media and be found there. Edward McNair Executive Director emcnair@nanog.org

On Sep 8, 2023, at 17:25, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:

...

It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:

https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/

"Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking, Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account activity thresholds are met."

Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that MailChimp inserts by default, too:

https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/

as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump at all.

nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.

randy

Edward- Tracker issues aside, as I called out earlier in the thread, by our own rules the newsletters should not be sent to this list in the first place. Citing NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines ( https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ ) : Posts to NANOG’s Mailing List should be focused on operational and

technical content only, as described by the NANOG Bylaws. Using the NANOG Mailing List as a source for private marketing initiatives, or product marketing of any kind, is prohibited.

On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 11:28 PM Edward McNair <emcnair@nanog.org> wrote:

Randy,

We do not buy, sell or share any data or personal information on anyone. MailChimp is only used to get data points on the effectiveness of our newsletter. We also try to get data on the effectiveness of our social media efforts. We do not look at individual behavior, only group anonymous data. If you wish to by-pass the "trackers," just go to https://nanog.org/stories/ Anything that we send out in our newsletter or social media and be found there.

*Edward McNair* Executive Director

emcnair@nanog.org

On Sep 8, 2023, at 17:25, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:

It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:

https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/

"Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking, Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account activity thresholds are met."

Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that MailChimp inserts by default, too:

https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/

as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump at all.

nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.

randy

Dear NANOG-ers, Hope this email finds you in good health! Le jeudi 7 septembre 2023, Anne Mitchell <amitchell@isipp.com> a écrit :

...

[...]

can we please get URLs without all the invasive tracking?

list-manage.com is Mailchimp;

Hi Anne, Thanks for your email. Sure! but the question could be: Isn't why the mailinglist was chosen? :-/

not sure it's possible to turn off tracking when using an ESP like that. :-(

It should be simply a matter of sharing an URI with a title and small intro... The content of the email could be collected via a FLOSS RSS [1] feed agregator and sent to the mailinglist, in a regular basis. __ [1]: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS> No need to "over" track list-ers. ...that kind of MitM [2] isn't desirable/necessary! __ [2]: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_away> Shalom, --sb.

Anne

[...]

-- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]|<https://cmnog.cm/dokuwiki/Structure> Subscribe to Mailing List: <https://lists.cmnog.cm/mailman/listinfo/cmnog/> __ #‎LASAINTEBIBLE‬|#‎Romains15‬:33«Que LE ‪#‎DIEU‬ de ‪#‎Paix‬ soit avec vous tous! ‪#‎Amen‬!» ‪#‎MaPrière‬ est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chrétiennement‬ «Comme une biche soupire après des courants d’eau, ainsi mon âme soupire après TOI, ô DIEU!»(#Psaumes42:2)