Picking a RIR/obtaining an AS/ressurrecting a legacy space
I have an old friend still holding onto some legacy IP space that he has not used in 30 years. The origin goes back to the early 90s, and originally through ARIN. In the relevant databases it is a /23, but actually a /22 - but the top 2 addresses are not registered or announced anywhere I can find. I do not mind losing those to the pool but getting the /23 up and running would help... and a /22 far more useful for our purposes. Sadly I also have a lovely 16 bit BGP AS number AS5768 still unused from my first company of that era but in the hands of a admin that has been unresponsive about either using it or giving it back for many years. Sentimentally I would like to find a way to get that back... but it is ok if that doesn't happen. Anyway, LibreQos would really like to obtain a BGP AS number from some RIR (or is there an unused BGP AS transfer market?) and have some real IPv4 addresses to vector some traffic through, in our testbeds initially, and perhaps later on as means to shape traffic for other services. Most of our market is outside the USA actually and I would be inclined to get that AS from the simplest AR to deal with, but my list of preferences is merely based on where we have installations rather than cost/contacts/customer service... and especially, "hassle". Honestly coping with figuring out the fee and registration schedules are is just beyond me. I have heard ripe was easiest to deal with regarding legacy space. (?) Anyone out there that can help sort out this legacy space in a sane manner? We are subsisting on a tiny amount of donations/month presently, and the up front cost and yearly costs are quite a lot to make this step. Finding someone(s) to help us become real in this fashion, navigating the RIRs process, setting up bird or FRR for us (with a touch of anycast), would help, and help (at some price) moving forward, would be great. I have not got BGP running myself in over 25 years! -- Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/ Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
The ASN really isn’t a big deal. There’s no scarcity of them, you can get a 16-bit one by asking. The legacy IPv4 space, well, if there’s a clear chain of custody to the current holder, and the current holder is responsive, they can use it or transfer it. But also, IPv4 space isn’t scarce… it just costs money, now, to buy. If you’re in the US, just use ARIN. ARIN’s processes aren’t arcane, particularly compared with RIPE, and fees are predictable and relatively low. -Bill
On Jul 6, 2023, at 16:29, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
I have an old friend still holding onto some legacy IP space that he has not used in 30 years. The origin goes back to the early 90s, and originally through ARIN. In the relevant databases it is a /23, but actually a /22 - but the top 2 addresses are not registered or announced anywhere I can find. I do not mind losing those to the pool but getting the /23 up and running would help... and a /22 far more useful for our purposes. Sadly I also have a lovely 16 bit BGP AS number AS5768 still unused from my first company of that era but in the hands of a admin that has been unresponsive about either using it or giving it back for many years. Sentimentally I would like to find a way to get that back... but it is ok if that doesn't happen.
Anyway, LibreQos would really like to obtain a BGP AS number from some RIR (or is there an unused BGP AS transfer market?) and have some real IPv4 addresses to vector some traffic through, in our testbeds initially, and perhaps later on as means to shape traffic for other services. Most of our market is outside the USA actually and I would be inclined to get that AS from the simplest AR to deal with, but my list of preferences is merely based on where we have installations rather than cost/contacts/customer service... and especially, "hassle". Honestly coping with figuring out the fee and registration schedules are is just beyond me. I have heard ripe was easiest to deal with regarding legacy space. (?)
Anyone out there that can help sort out this legacy space in a sane manner? We are subsisting on a tiny amount of donations/month presently, and the up front cost and yearly costs are quite a lot to make this step.
Finding someone(s) to help us become real in this fashion, navigating the RIRs process, setting up bird or FRR for us (with a touch of anycast), would help, and help (at some price) moving forward, would be great. I have not got BGP running myself in over 25 years!
-- Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/ Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
Fixing the ausnog cc... more below. On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 8:46 AM Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net> wrote:
The ASN really isn’t a big deal. There’s no scarcity of them, you can get a 16-bit one by asking.
Heh. Trying to reaquire my old 16 bit AS number is merely a matter of vanity... just navigating through the modern processes to become real again in some fashion the larger problem. I remember how much I resented faxing allocations way back when, modern processes seem worse!
The legacy IPv4 space, well, if there’s a clear chain of custody to the current holder, and the current holder is responsive, they can use it or transfer it. But also, IPv4 space isn’t scarce… it just costs money, now, to buy.
The holder has a clear chain of custody for the bottom two /24s https://bgpview.io/prefix/198.177.242.0/24 https://bgpview.io/prefix/198.177.243.0/24 But the whole /22 was obtained to support the (long since deceased) chester county freenet, but he has no record of that. Neither does anyone else. The most ideal outcome is we get a /22 out of this, a less ideal but still nice would be to have the upper pool released to someone. Eric is willing to loan his IPs to our good cause if we can clear it up but wants to reserve his rights to actually sell them at some point in the future.
If you’re in the US, just use ARIN. ARIN’s processes aren’t arcane, particularly compared with RIPE, and fees are predictable and relatively low.
I presently have one vote for ARIN and another for RIPE. We are us based, but more of the folk using libreqos are located elsewhere.
-Bill
On Jul 6, 2023, at 16:29, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
I have an old friend still holding onto some legacy IP space that he has not used in 30 years. The origin goes back to the early 90s, and originally through ARIN. In the relevant databases it is a /23, but actually a /22 - but the top 2 addresses are not registered or announced anywhere I can find. I do not mind losing those to the pool but getting the /23 up and running would help... and a /22 far more useful for our purposes. Sadly I also have a lovely 16 bit BGP AS number AS5768 still unused from my first company of that era but in the hands of a admin that has been unresponsive about either using it or giving it back for many years. Sentimentally I would like to find a way to get that back... but it is ok if that doesn't happen.
Anyway, LibreQos would really like to obtain a BGP AS number from some RIR (or is there an unused BGP AS transfer market?) and have some real IPv4 addresses to vector some traffic through, in our testbeds initially, and perhaps later on as means to shape traffic for other services. Most of our market is outside the USA actually and I would be inclined to get that AS from the simplest AR to deal with, but my list of preferences is merely based on where we have installations rather than cost/contacts/customer service... and especially, "hassle". Honestly coping with figuring out the fee and registration schedules are is just beyond me. I have heard ripe was easiest to deal with regarding legacy space. (?)
Anyone out there that can help sort out this legacy space in a sane manner? We are subsisting on a tiny amount of donations/month presently, and the up front cost and yearly costs are quite a lot to make this step.
Finding someone(s) to help us become real in this fashion, navigating the RIRs process, setting up bird or FRR for us (with a touch of anycast), would help, and help (at some price) moving forward, would be great. I have not got BGP running myself in over 25 years!
-- Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/ Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
-- Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/ Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 8:03 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
This is registered to Thyrsus Enterprises via ARIN, managed by an Eric Raymond of Pennsylvania. Refer to https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=198.177.242.0 If your friend happens to be Eric Raymond, his best bet is to simply leave it alone as a legacy address under his control rather than try to prove himself the legal successor in interest to Thyrsus Enterprises. As long as there is no current Thyrsus Enterprises, and as the guy on the whois, he'll be able to submit an LOA to an ISP and get them to accept the route. If your friend isn't Eric Raymond or Thyrsus Enterprises still exists and is someone else... you're done. Save yourself some grief and just go to an address broker. Let them help you through the process of getting addresses.
This is registered to Chester County Freenet care of Chester County Hospital. Refer to https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=198.177.243.0 Raymond again controls it, but since he's neither the Freenet nor the hospital you're going to run into trouble getting it routed let alone getting ARIN to recognize you as the legal successor in interest.
the whole /22 was obtained to support the (long since deceased) chester county freenet, but he has no record of that. Neither does anyone else.
Those would form a /22 with 240 and 241. Both are registered to other people. Unclear why you thought otherwise. If you were thinking 244 and 245 (which do not form a /22 with 242 and 243), I'm sorry to tell you that they're also registered to someone else.
I presently have one vote for ARIN and another for RIPE. We are us based, but more of the folk using libreqos are located elsewhere.
The addresses are registered at ARIN. Until ARIN recognizes your friend as the registrant organization, they will remain so. At which point there's not a lot of benefit to moving them. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
thank you for your research into this on our behalf and the steer to the right things. Yes, these two ip address ranges are erics, and if anything he´s more allergic to paperwork than I am. On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 11:03 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 8:03 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
This is registered to Thyrsus Enterprises via ARIN, managed by an Eric Raymond of Pennsylvania. Refer to https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=198.177.242.0
If your friend happens to be Eric Raymond, his best bet is to simply leave it alone as a legacy address under his control rather than try to prove himself the legal successor in interest to Thyrsus Enterprises. As long as there is no current Thyrsus Enterprises, and as the guy on the whois, he'll be able to submit an LOA to an ISP and get them to accept the route.
Cool. That seems way simpler than the other alternatives running though my head.
If your friend isn't Eric Raymond or Thyrsus Enterprises still exists and is someone else... you're done. Save yourself some grief and just go to an address broker. Let them help you through the process of getting addresses.
This is registered to Chester County Freenet care of Chester County Hospital. Refer to https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=198.177.243.0
Raymond again controls it, but since he's neither the Freenet nor the hospital you're going to run into trouble getting it routed let alone getting ARIN to recognize you as the legal successor in interest.
I do not know the history here, I will ask.
the whole /22 was obtained to support the (long since deceased) chester county freenet, but he has no record of that. Neither does anyone else.
Those would form a /22 with 240 and 241. Both are registered to other people. Unclear why you thought otherwise. If you were thinking 244 and 245 (which do not form a /22 with 242 and 243), I'm sorry to tell you that they're also registered to someone else.
OK, good to know, that you for straightening this out a bit.
I presently have one vote for ARIN and another for RIPE. We are us based, but more of the folk using libreqos are located elsewhere.
The addresses are registered at ARIN. Until ARIN recognizes your friend as the registrant organization, they will remain so. At which point there's not a lot of benefit to moving them.
Regards, Bill Herrin
-- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
-- Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/ Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
ARIN is actually staffed by helpful people that can answer many of these questions. Call RSD +1.703.227.0660 <+1-703-227-0660> On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 10:19 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
thank you for your research into this on our behalf and the steer to the right things.
Yes, these two ip address ranges are erics, and if anything he´s more allergic to paperwork than I am.
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 11:03 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 8:03 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
This is registered to Thyrsus Enterprises via ARIN, managed by an Eric Raymond of Pennsylvania. Refer to https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=198.177.242.0
If your friend happens to be Eric Raymond, his best bet is to simply leave it alone as a legacy address under his control rather than try to prove himself the legal successor in interest to Thyrsus Enterprises. As long as there is no current Thyrsus Enterprises, and as the guy on the whois, he'll be able to submit an LOA to an ISP and get them to accept the route.
Cool. That seems way simpler than the other alternatives running though my head.
If your friend isn't Eric Raymond or Thyrsus Enterprises still exists and is someone else... you're done. Save yourself some grief and just go to an address broker. Let them help you through the process of getting addresses.
This is registered to Chester County Freenet care of Chester County Hospital. Refer to https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=198.177.243.0
Raymond again controls it, but since he's neither the Freenet nor the hospital you're going to run into trouble getting it routed let alone getting ARIN to recognize you as the legal successor in interest.
I do not know the history here, I will ask.
the whole /22 was obtained to support the (long since deceased) chester county freenet, but he has no record of that. Neither does anyone else.
Those would form a /22 with 240 and 241. Both are registered to other people. Unclear why you thought otherwise. If you were thinking 244 and 245 (which do not form a /22 with 242 and 243), I'm sorry to tell you that they're also registered to someone else.
OK, good to know, that you for straightening this out a bit.
I presently have one vote for ARIN and another for RIPE. We are us based, but more of the folk using libreqos are located elsewhere.
The addresses are registered at ARIN. Until ARIN recognizes your friend as the registrant organization, they will remain so. At which point there's not a lot of benefit to moving them.
Regards, Bill Herrin
-- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
-- Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/ Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 11:15 AM Tina Morris <tinapmorris@gmail.com> wrote:
ARIN is actually staffed by helpful people that can answer many of these questions. Call RSD +1.703.227.0660
They absolutely are great people, BUT, and this is true of every regulatory body, you talk to them very carefully before you have your ducks in a row because whatever you say, you can't take it back. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
On Jul 6, 2023, at 3:03 PM, William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 11:15 AM Tina Morris <tinapmorris@gmail.com> wrote:
ARIN is actually staffed by helpful people that can answer many of these questions. Call RSD +1.703.227.0660
They absolutely are great people, BUT, and this is true of every regulatory body, you talk to them very carefully before you have your ducks in a row because whatever you say, you can't take it back.
Bill - You are correct, insomuch if one intends to alter answers about the purported history of an address block from what was said the first time, we won’t simply disregard the previously supplied story. Instead, we'll ask for the cause of recent enlightenment; i.e., did you discover an email that reminded you of certain details, or call someone who reminded you of events, etc.? We’re often dealing with events that are more than two decades past, so it’s understandable that both recollection of events and records can be a bit muddled. This is not really an issue for most folks, but rather is problematic primarily for those whose answers suddenly change when they realize they aren’t the rightful holder of rights to an address block – some other party is – and so decide get creative with facts mid-process with the hope that we at ARIN just won’t notice their conversion attempt. Thanks, /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 1:43 PM John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:
You are correct, insomuch if one intends to alter answers about the purported history of an address block from what was said the first time, we won’t simply disregard the previously supplied story.
With due respect John, any given set of facts can be presented more than one way, without altering any of the facts. When a use case is dead center for ARIN's normal operation, it doesn't much matter. When it's more of an edge case, I recommend having a friendly ear help you get your ducks in a row before saying anything to ARIN. And let's face it, it doesn't get much more edge case than updating a dormant pre-ARIN (legacy) address block. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 3:26 PM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 1:43 PM John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:
You are correct, insomuch if one intends to alter answers about the purported history of an address block from what was said the first time, we won’t simply disregard the previously supplied story.
With due respect John, any given set of facts can be presented more than one way, without altering any of the facts. When a use case is dead center for ARIN's normal operation, it doesn't much matter. When it's more of an edge case, I recommend having a friendly ear help you get your ducks in a row before saying anything to ARIN. And let's face it, it doesn't get much more edge case than updating a dormant pre-ARIN (legacy) address block.
Regards, Bill Herrin
The history here goes back 30 years! ( http://www.ccil.org/home/about-ccil/history-of-ccil ) Eric is mostly retired, rarely answers email, and all memories of this period faint. I have reached out to them to see if they still have use for the other /24. Thank you everyone for explaining how things work nowadays.
-- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
-- Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/ Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 1:05 PM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 8:03 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
This is registered to Thyrsus Enterprises via ARIN, managed by an Eric Raymond of Pennsylvania. Refer to https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=198.177.242.0
If your friend happens to be Eric Raymond, his best bet is to simply leave it alone as a legacy address under his control rather than try to prove himself the legal successor in interest to Thyrsus Enterprises. As long as there is no current Thyrsus Enterprises, and as the guy on the whois, he'll be able to submit an LOA to an ISP and get them to accept the route.
If your friend isn't Eric Raymond or Thyrsus Enterprises still exists and is someone else... you're done. Save yourself some grief and just go to an address broker. Let them help you through the process of getting addresses.
This is registered to Chester County Freenet care of Chester County Hospital. Refer to https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=198.177.243.0
Raymond again controls it, but since he's neither the Freenet nor the hospital you're going to run into trouble getting it routed let alone getting ARIN to recognize you as the legal successor in interest.
And if you want to talk to the hospital, it's under Penn, so you'll probably have to go through them
the whole /22 was obtained to support the (long since deceased) chester county freenet, but he has no record of that. Neither does anyone else.
Those would form a /22 with 240 and 241. Both are registered to other people. Unclear why you thought otherwise. If you were thinking 244 and 245 (which do not form a /22 with 242 and 243), I'm sorry to tell you that they're also registered to someone else.
I presently have one vote for ARIN and another for RIPE. We are us based, but more of the folk using libreqos are located elsewhere.
The addresses are registered at ARIN. Until ARIN recognizes your friend as the registrant organization, they will remain so. At which point there's not a lot of benefit to moving them.
Regards, Bill Herrin
-- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 7:29 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
Anyway, LibreQos would really like to obtain a BGP AS number from some RIR (or is there an unused BGP AS transfer market?)
The other part of your question was AS numbers. From your starting point, this is easier. You'll need contracts with two BGP speaking service providers and control of at least a /24 of IP addresses. Virtual server provider like Vultr will be fine for this (they do BGP with customers) but you'll need two. You'll also need an official business, so stand up an LLC. They're cheap. Then go to ARIN and register the LLC as an org. Once registered, request an AS number. Show control of the IP block and the two ISP contracts as your evidence of multihoming. Pay the fee and that should be all there is to it. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
participants (6)
-
Bill Woodcock -
Dave Taht -
John Curran -
Justin Keller -
Tina Morris -
William Herrin