Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts
Hail NANOGers! After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement here. The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this decision can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting. https://www.nanog.org/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/BOD-BCOPMinute... As you might expect, I find this extremely disappointing. Our reaction has been twofold: 1) We're moving to a new home. You can now find all of the current documents at http://nabcop.org. Everything is moving forward, despite a bit of jostling. Please jump in and get involved! 2) I'm so disappointed by this decision, and the future course of NANOG implied, that I've decided to run for the NANOG Board of Directors. There's a really great slate of candidates running, so whatever your decision, I highly encourage you to really consider your selections. https://www.nanog.org/elections/2015/BoDcandidates If you have any questions at all, please feel free to email me directly, or send them to bcop-support@nabcop.org. See you in Montréal! Cheers, ~Chris
If NANOG isn't developing and publishing BCOPs, what's the point of NANOG other than a mailing list? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Grundemann" <cgrundemann@gmail.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 9:41:38 AM Subject: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts Hail NANOGers! After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement here. The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this decision can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting. https://www.nanog.org/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/BOD-BCOPMinute... As you might expect, I find this extremely disappointing. Our reaction has been twofold: 1) We're moving to a new home. You can now find all of the current documents at http://nabcop.org. Everything is moving forward, despite a bit of jostling. Please jump in and get involved! 2) I'm so disappointed by this decision, and the future course of NANOG implied, that I've decided to run for the NANOG Board of Directors. There's a really great slate of candidates running, so whatever your decision, I highly encourage you to really consider your selections. https://www.nanog.org/elections/2015/BoDcandidates If you have any questions at all, please feel free to email me directly, or send them to bcop-support@nabcop.org. See you in Montréal! Cheers, ~Chris
Late to the party but which best current practices were these and - as the board asked - how much of it reinvents the several other best practice wheels around? --srs
On 30-Sep-2015, at 8:47 PM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
If NANOG isn't developing and publishing BCOPs, what's the point of NANOG other than a mailing list?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Grundemann" <cgrundemann@gmail.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 9:41:38 AM Subject: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts
Hail NANOGers!
After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement here.
The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this decision can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting.
https://www.nanog.org/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/BOD-BCOPMinute...
As you might expect, I find this extremely disappointing. Our reaction has been twofold:
1) We're moving to a new home. You can now find all of the current documents at http://nabcop.org. Everything is moving forward, despite a bit of jostling. Please jump in and get involved!
2) I'm so disappointed by this decision, and the future course of NANOG implied, that I've decided to run for the NANOG Board of Directors. There's a really great slate of candidates running, so whatever your decision, I highly encourage you to really consider your selections.
https://www.nanog.org/elections/2015/BoDcandidates
If you have any questions at all, please feel free to email me directly, or send them to bcop-support@nabcop.org.
See you in Montréal!
Cheers, ~Chris
Hi Suresh, I believe all the information you seek is on our wiki: http://nabcop.org. Be sure to look over the list of topics under the "Jump In" heading. To your question about reinventing wheels specifically: There's two aspects to that I believe. The first is that we have no intention to "make work" by duplicating efforts. In cases where the BCOP is already clearly defined and well maintained, we simply want to act as curator - giving network engineers a single place to find the information they need. In other cases, we act as creator - bringing together subject matter experts to draft new documents for community review. The second aspect is that every BCOP must be rooted in existing knowledge. BCOPs are defined by being tried and true methods for dealing with some aspect of modern network operations. These are things that have been presented on and discussed at NANOG. They are things that are "common sense" to the initiated. They are also things that are profound when discovered for the first time. The idea here is to capture what some of us know, vet it, and make it easily available to all of us. Cheers, ~Chris On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian < ops.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
Late to the party but which best current practices were these and - as the board asked - how much of it reinvents the several other best practice wheels around?
--srs
On 30-Sep-2015, at 8:47 PM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
If NANOG isn't developing and publishing BCOPs, what's the point of NANOG other than a mailing list?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Grundemann" <cgrundemann@gmail.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 9:41:38 AM Subject: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts
Hail NANOGers!
After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement here.
The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this decision can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting.
https://www.nanog.org/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/BOD-BCOPMinute...
As you might expect, I find this extremely disappointing. Our reaction
has
been twofold:
1) We're moving to a new home. You can now find all of the current documents at http://nabcop.org. Everything is moving forward, despite a bit of jostling. Please jump in and get involved!
2) I'm so disappointed by this decision, and the future course of NANOG implied, that I've decided to run for the NANOG Board of Directors. There's a really great slate of candidates running, so whatever your decision, I highly encourage you to really consider your selections.
https://www.nanog.org/elections/2015/BoDcandidates
If you have any questions at all, please feel free to email me directly, or send them to bcop-support@nabcop.org.
See you in Montréal!
Cheers, ~Chris
-- @ChrisGrundemann http://chrisgrundemann.com
On 30 Sep 2015, at 10:17, Mike Hammett wrote:
If NANOG isn't developing and publishing BCOPs, what's the point of NANOG other than a mailing list?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Network_Operators'_Group> ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@arbor.net>
If NANOG isn't developing and publishing BCOPs, what's the point of NANOG other than a mailing list?
what more point do you need? it has been a very successful and useful mailing list for a few decades. ripe has been the ops document repo since before this mailing list existed. it works well. half-assed jealousy will get us nowhere. randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Grundemann" <cgrundemann@gmail.com>
After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement here.
The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this decision can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting.
I tried it 5 or 6 years ago: http://bestpractices.wikia.com I didn't get any traction either. Guessing no one cares. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 9/30/2015 8:25 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
Guessing no one cares.
Darwinism. - - ferg - -- Paul Ferguson PGP Public Key ID: 0x54DC85B2 Key fingerprint: 19EC 2945 FEE8 D6C8 58A1 CE53 2896 AC75 54DC 85B2 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlYMqk0ACgkQKJasdVTchbJbMAD/YpiWJ6M+IrWvhPxalNOV5VwI Gb28QJvadjwZjSJuIJEBAKHHNcu23AJn1jh6Qe2HxfFr8yMKyfEbnHe271Xxrult =VV1S -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 11:25 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Grundemann" <cgrundemann@gmail.com>
After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement here.
The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this decision can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting.
I tried it 5 or 6 years ago:
We've been at this for 7 or 8 years now. Related efforts all around the world are taking root and growing. http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/projects/bcop/ You are invited to help if you have time or ideas!
I didn't get any traction either.
The really disappointing part is that we have been gaining traction and now have to re-group in this region rather than smoothly continue to build.
Guessing no one cares.
My experience says that guess is wrong. The problem is twofold. Those that care the most are the ones who need the information, not those who have it (for obvious reasons). Those that have the information are mostly busy engineers, for whom writing documentation is not their favorite thing. Cheers, ~Chris
On 1 October 2015 at 00:37, Chris Grundemann <cgrundemann@gmail.com> wrote:
Those that have the information are mostly busy engineers, for whom writing documentation is not their favorite thing.
There's also the issue that if you ask two NANOG engineers a technical question you'll get (at least) five answers...
I wouldn't call it an issue.. it is precisely the potential multiplicity of practices which gives strong value to a "best Common Operational Practice" ... that was the experience working towards ratifying a DDoS/DoS BCOP ... and the BCOP keeps improving... all for the benefit of the Net Ops community... Yardiel Fuentes On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Harald Koch <chk@pobox.com> wrote:
On 1 October 2015 at 00:37, Chris Grundemann <cgrundemann@gmail.com> wrote:
Those that have the information are mostly busy engineers, for whom writing documentation is not their favorite thing.
There's also the issue that if you ask two NANOG engineers a technical question you'll get (at least) five answers...
-- Yardiel Fuentes
On 30 Sep 2015, at 23:37, Chris Grundemann wrote:
The problem is twofold. Those that care the most are the ones who need the information, not those who have it (for obvious reasons).
My view is the opposite - that those who have enough expertise, experience, and vision to understand the problem space have already done these things (to the degree that they can do so within the constraints of their respective organizations), and the people who don't know don't even understand that the problem space exists in the first place. So, educating folks to the point that they understand that the problem space exists is The Problem, writ large. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@arbor.net>
On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 09:58:49AM -0500, Roland Dobbins wrote:
So, educating folks to the point that they understand that the problem space exists is The Problem, writ large.
I strongly concur with this. While there are some amazing experts out there who provide exemplary models of how to run an X, for many values of X, they're becoming increasingly rare as large entities engage in a race to the bottom. We now accept as "routine" problems (including massive, systemic, persistent problems) that would have never been tolerated by the community years ago, and in part we accept this because lots of folks don't know that they shouldn't. Today's example: http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings/amazon.com At least they're not in the Top 10 worst spam-sourcing networks like they were just a few weeks ago, but how can anyone at Amazon sleep at night while this situation exists? Do they not grasp how unprofessional and unethical it is to allow this situation to persist? The same can be said of many other operational issues, and I don't mean the normal level of oops-that-was-wrong mistakes that we're all prone to; we'll never get rid of all of those. I mean the things that are way wrong and stay wrong because folks are doing their best to put their fingers in their ears and avoid hearing about them. (I'm looking at you, Google.) So yes, BCOP efforts are laudable and good and every other positive thing; but unless we (for a large value of "we") start imposing consequences for bad/wrong/stupid behavior, they will be ignored. Their existence won't even be noted. Their relevance won't be grasped. Bill Cole nailed it when he wrote: Current Peeve: The mindset that the Internet is some sort of school for novice sysadmins and that everyone *not* doing stupid dangerous things should act like patient teachers with the ones who are. ---rsk
participants (10)
-
Chris Grundemann -
Harald Koch -
Jay Ashworth -
Mike Hammett -
Paul Ferguson -
Randy Bush -
Rich Kulawiec -
Roland Dobbins -
Suresh Ramasubramanian -
Yardiel Fuentes