At 14:09 26/06/2015 -0400, Clayton Zekelman wrote: Singapore averages 130Mb/sec and has ISPs that average 500Mb/sec: http://www.netindex.com/download/2,17/Singapore/ Rogers currently averages over 60Mb/sec: http://www.netindex.com/download/2,7/Canada/ -Hank

They needed to do this. Rogers is already offering higher speeds.

At 02:04 PM 26/06/2015, Hank Disuko wrote:

...

Bell Canada is apparently gearing up to provide the good people of Toronto with the World's Fastest Internet™. http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2015/06/25/bell-canada-to-give-toronto...

---

Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E Windsor, Ontario N8W 1H4

tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409

How does one fully utilize a gigabit link for home use? For a single person it is overkill. Similar to the concept of price elasticity in economics, going from 50mbps to 1gbps doesn't necessarily increase your average transfer rate, at least I don't think it would for me. Anyone care to comment? Just really curious, as to me it's more of a marketing push than anything else, even though gigabit to the home sounds really cool. On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Eric Dugas <EDugas@zerofail.com> wrote:

Nice try Bell.. So-Net did it two years ago, 2Gbps FTTH in Japan.

Article: http://bgr.com/2013/06/13/so-net-nuro-2gbps-fiber-service/

If you read Japanese: http://www.nuro.jp/hikari/

Eric

-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Hank Disuko Sent: June 26, 2015 2:04 PM To: NANOG Subject: World's Fastest Internet™ in Canadaland

Bell Canada is apparently gearing up to provide the good people of Toronto with the World's Fastest Internet™.

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2015/06/25/bell-canada-to-give-toronto...

On Fri, 26 Jun 2015, jim deleskie wrote:

Its mostly marketing, a number of years ago I worked for a cable co, we knew if we increased BW X we'd see a Y speed increase in usage. We also has done the math on several future generations of upgrades, so we'd know if "phone company" increases to A we'd move to B. I know the guy that did the math for us then, he still sits in that job so I assume he still does similar I suspect any cable so worth their salt does the same.

After you increase the download speed above a certain threshold, it's my experience that total data per month doesn't increase more than marginally with speed increase. As soon as access speed is high enough so youtube, netflix etc automatically goes to the highest resolution immediately, data transfered per month is the same even though the access speed goes up. So when you go from 5 to 10 megabit/s towards the user, yes, data amount increases, but when you go from 100 to 250 megabit/s towards the user, not so much. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se

Like Peter Lothberg's mother's home :) --srs

On 27-Jun-2015, at 12:22 am, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:

And yes, "fastest Internet in the world" is pure BS, gigabit ethernet access to peoples homes have been around for years in other places

On Fri, 26 Jun 2015, Rafael Possamai wrote:

How does one fully utilize a gigabit link for home use? For a single person it is overkill. Similar to the concept of price elasticity in economics, going from 50mbps to 1gbps doesn't necessarily increase your average transfer rate, at least I don't think it would for me.

Why would you use average transfer rate as the metric for user experience quality? Most users don't care about their long term bandwidth average, they care about getting that movie playing _right_now_, or HD video calls with all the grandchildren, all at once. Heck, they care more about web pages showing up on the screen nice and fast more than average download speed. -- Brandon Ross Yahoo & AIM: BrandonNRoss +1-404-635-6667 ICQ: 2269442 Skype: brandonross Schedule a meeting: http://www.doodle.com/bross

On 06/26/2015 12:03 PM, Paul Stewart wrote:

Personally I think it's pure marketing ... something I think we all know...

I seen a few years back a FTTH development get completed using GPON - everything in the area got "Full Gig Internet". Speedtest while I was onsite showed about 900Mb/s download so pretty darn close (before they fully deployed).

The interesting part was that the development consisted of 4400 active users the last time I heard but the bandwidth to upstream provider was still only a single GigE and was not hitting serious saturation levels most of the time.

I have worked on server room networking, and found that it takes quite a bit of tweaking of the interfaces and the TCP stack to get things up to 80 percent usage of a gigabit link. Both ends. So your side can go like the wind, but your data source may not be able to fill the pipe. So I agree that, for most people, this will be pure marketing hype. As for the 4400 users, that's the classical oversubscription model.

On Fri, 2015-06-26 at 13:39 -0500, Rafael Possamai wrote:

How does one fully utilize a gigabit link for home use? For a single person it is overkill.

This sentiment keeps popping up. It's a failure of vision. To suggest that "single people" or "ordinary people" or any other set of presumably average and uninteresting people will never be able to fully utilise the amazing properties of X, and that they can and should be satisfied with some limited version of X or the even more limited alternative Y, is to completely miss the point. And to actually provide no more than that is to build a self-fulfilling prophecy. Look at pretty much any modern technology and you can be sure that when it was first invented someone wearing the then equivalent of a brown cardigan said "yes, that's all very well, but what use will ordinary people ever have for it?". When the first little fire sputtered into life in some Neanderthal cave you can bet that some troglodyte said "no point make bigger, me warm enough, more hot waste of effort", but of course he hadn't thought of bronze, iron, steel, glass, welding or rocketry. Or the steam engine or the internal combustion engine. What luck that his kids ignored him, eh? As William Gibson wrote, "the street finds its uses for things". I can't think of anything I would or could do with a terabit Internet link - but it's not me who needs it. It's the kids now in school who will build it, and their kids will think it commonplace. And they will look back at you and me and think "how did our grandparents ever manage with only a couple of gigabits? How limiting!" And while they are thinking that, some bright young things will report that they think they've got a primitive exabit link working... Regards, K. PS: There are only three real values for network speeds, just as there are only three values for amount of personal fortune, RAM, disk space and CPU speed. The three values are "not enough", "enough" and "I don't know". Always aspire to "I don't know". -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer http://twitter.com/kauer389 GPG fingerprint: 3C41 82BE A9E7 99A1 B931 5AE7 7638 0147 2C3C 2AC4 Old fingerprint: EC67 61E2 C2F6 EB55 884B E129 072B 0AF0 72AA 9882

On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 01:06:26PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:

...

On Jun 26, 2015, at 13:02 , Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au> wrote:

On Fri, 2015-06-26 at 13:39 -0500, Rafael Possamai wrote:

...

How does one fully utilize a gigabit link for home use? For a single person it is overkill.

This sentiment keeps popping up. It's a failure of vision. To suggest that "single people" or "ordinary people" or any other set of presumably average and uninteresting people will never be able to fully utilise the amazing properties of X, and that they can and should be satisfied with some limited version of X or the even more limited alternative Y, is to completely miss the point. And to actually provide no more than that is to build a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I see a potential market for perhaps hundreds of aircraft in the coming century.

And just possibly for more than seven computers on the continent. *Any* continent. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO mikea@mikea.ath.cx Tired old sysadmin

That comment was made from a customer perspective (myself) while I wonder if I ever would wanna pay for it, although it seems like it's pretty cheap already. As an entrepreneur, business, etc... then yes, I agree. Shoot for the stars and land on the moon. :) On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au> wrote:

...

How does one fully utilize a gigabit link for home use? For a single

On Fri, 2015-06-26 at 13:39 -0500, Rafael Possamai wrote: person

...

it is overkill.

This sentiment keeps popping up. It's a failure of vision. To suggest that "single people" or "ordinary people" or any other set of presumably average and uninteresting people will never be able to fully utilise the amazing properties of X, and that they can and should be satisfied with some limited version of X or the even more limited alternative Y, is to completely miss the point. And to actually provide no more than that is to build a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Look at pretty much any modern technology and you can be sure that when it was first invented someone wearing the then equivalent of a brown cardigan said "yes, that's all very well, but what use will ordinary people ever have for it?".

When the first little fire sputtered into life in some Neanderthal cave you can bet that some troglodyte said "no point make bigger, me warm enough, more hot waste of effort", but of course he hadn't thought of bronze, iron, steel, glass, welding or rocketry. Or the steam engine or the internal combustion engine. What luck that his kids ignored him, eh?

As William Gibson wrote, "the street finds its uses for things".

I can't think of anything I would or could do with a terabit Internet link - but it's not me who needs it. It's the kids now in school who will build it, and their kids will think it commonplace. And they will look back at you and me and think "how did our grandparents ever manage with only a couple of gigabits? How limiting!" And while they are thinking that, some bright young things will report that they think they've got a primitive exabit link working...

Regards, K.

PS: There are only three real values for network speeds, just as there are only three values for amount of personal fortune, RAM, disk space and CPU speed. The three values are "not enough", "enough" and "I don't know". Always aspire to "I don't know".

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer http://twitter.com/kauer389

GPG fingerprint: 3C41 82BE A9E7 99A1 B931 5AE7 7638 0147 2C3C 2AC4 Old fingerprint: EC67 61E2 C2F6 EB55 884B E129 072B 0AF0 72AA 9882

On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 04:30:05PM -0400, A MEKKAOUI wrote:

Your right. Actually, Bell knows that home does not need that much BW, Bell size their network for much less than that. However, from a marketing perspective, when Bell says to a client I am offering you 1G at $100 and competition are offering you 30M at $60, some clients likes that because they ignore that 1G will not make a difference compared to 30M.

Also Bell is currently using ADSL technology to provide internet service which is a dead technology. So, Bell has no choice but to move to fiber if they want to stay on the market.

KARIM M.

When I'm downloading an ISO or USB bootable image of, say, FreeBSD 10.x, that speed difference makes a difference to me. I grant that I'm not Joe Typical by any means, but the number of people who aren't Joe Typical isn't zero -- not by a good bit. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO mikea@mikea.ath.cx Tired old sysadmin

Some of those are why would one EVER need more than X, while others are why would one NOW need more than X. Big difference. Simple fact that there is no residential application that needs more than even 50 megabit much less 10,000 megabit. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> To: "Rafael Possamai" <rafael@gav.ufsc.br> Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 3:57:29 PM Subject: Re: World's Fastest Internet™ in Canadaland

How does one fully utilize a gigabit link for home use?

we once asked how a home user would use 56kb, how anyone needed more than 640k in a pee cee, how we would need more than 32 bits in an address. the only thing not rising is water levels. except the ocean, that is. randy

On 26/Jun/15 23:11, mikea wrote:

Define "need". On the average, I probably don't need more than 56 KBaud, integrated over all the years I've been linked to the 'Net from home. Would I be willing to put up with it? Hell, no! Would I be willing to put up with 10 Gig to the house for what I'm paying now? Emphatically yes.

Ditto 1 Gig. What I'm getting isn't more than 10 megabit down and 2.5 up, so a fatter pipe would be very welcome. At the same price, or even another $50/month.

But I don't need it in the sense that I'll lose money or customers if I don't have it.

Assuming a service provider is looking to stay in business by delivering more services on top of your garden variety Net, then considering the quality of the pipe coming into the home is the first thing. If I built an FTTH network (which would be Active-E, in my case), I'd deliver 1Gbps to every home. This does not mean I am going to sell 1Gbps of Internet access bandwidth to that home. It just means I have 1Gbps of bandwidth into the home. And what can I do with that? - I can sell classic Net. - I can sell classic Voice. - I can sell classic Tv. - I can sell Streaming Tv. - I can sell VoD. - e.t.c. When I market to my customers, I don't market "You have 1Gbps in your home. Now go make babies." I market the services I will be able to deliver over that bandwidth. If an ISP can deliver 1Gbps into the home, why limit thinking to conventions around bandwidth? Customers only care about bandwidth if it's getting in the way. Otherwise, all they want to know is how many VoD streams they can enjoy in 1080p, how many concurrent iPads and laptops in the house they can download a full movie on in 5 minutes, how many sports channels come in the Tv package, and whether they get flat-rate for international voice calls. The bandwidth - well, that is a given. You have to deliver all those services somehow... 1Gbps is just a port on a switch; it's not that big a deal. Mark.

It’s not just about the transfer rate, though. As has been noted, response times at peak congestion are definitely faster if you have more bandwidth. So if you’ve got 3 kids all wanting to stream different HD5k content, 50Mbits is going to get interesting. 100Mbps will probably handle it with enough of a jitter buffer. 10G you can probably play instant on and let the jitter buffer build while playing the first few seconds. There are a number of other tactics that can improve user experience with more bandwidth than is needed for the long-term average. Average transfer rate is a silly way to measure anticipated user experience, as has been pointed out by others. Owen

On Jun 26, 2015, at 14:01 , Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:

Some of those are why would one EVER need more than X, while others are why would one NOW need more than X. Big difference. Simple fact that there is no residential application that needs more than even 50 megabit much less 10,000 megabit.

----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> To: "Rafael Possamai" <rafael@gav.ufsc.br> Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 3:57:29 PM Subject: Re: World's Fastest Internet™ in Canadaland

...

How does one fully utilize a gigabit link for home use?

we once asked how a home user would use 56kb, how anyone needed more than 640k in a pee cee, how we would need more than 32 bits in an address.

the only thing not rising is water levels. except the ocean, that is.

randy

In message <CAJB2g-H2cccqUD7_BhpoyDo+BeYSyZpy+js2P+hJ6RUk0QX-hQ@mail.gmail.com> , Rafael Possamai writes:

How does one fully utilize a gigabit link for home use? For a single person it is overkill. Similar to the concept of price elasticity in economics, going from 50mbps to 1gbps doesn't necessarily increase your average transfer rate, at least I don't think it would for me. Anyone care to comment? Just really curious, as to me it's more of a marketing push than anything else, even though gigabit to the home sounds really cool.

Overkill is good provided it doesn't cost too much more. You want the connection speed to not be a limitation on what you are trying to do. 1G does that at a good price point these days. At some point in the future 1G will seem slow and there will be a new speed that stops the link speed being the limitation. You don't think about the size of power lines coming into a house as they are overkill for just about anything you will do in the house. You don't think about the size of water pipes coming into a house as they are overkill for just about anything you will do in the house. Very occasionally you will want to connect directly to the mains (filling a pool) but otherwise the pipe is more that sufficient. The worry should be over the gigabytes transfered, the kilowatthours and the kilolitres consumed which are the actual resources being delivered. Unfortunately ISP's have made it about link speed rather than what it really is about because link speed was the limiting factor. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

10Gbps inside the home at an economical price for the phys means IP Multicast can finally be a viable alternative (replacement for) HDMI. No more will you connect one Blu-Ray player to One Amp to One TV. You’ll just connect them all to ethernet. Amps and TVs will have UIs which allow you to subscribe to streams provided by Blu-Rays and other media sources. Want to watch something on two TVs while listening to the audio through a particular amp in the house, no problem. Set up the stream on the provider device and subscribe on the TVs and the Amp. When it’s all set, press play and enjoy. Want to pause it and move to a third TV and change amps? No problem. Pause, reconfigure the subscriptions, and resume. Of course this will require the RIAA and their friends to either come up with new ways to be obnoxious to consumers or to perform an extraction of their crania from their collective rectums about DRM in order to be viable, but I’m sure one or more of those things will happen eventually. Owen

On Jun 26, 2015, at 15:15 , Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.mu> wrote:

On 26/Jun/15 23:56, Mark Andrews wrote:

...

Unfortunately ISP's have made it about link speed rather than what it really is about because link speed was the limiting factor.

When 1Gbps becomes mainstream to the home, I think it will stop being about link speed (well, for a while anyway, because who knows...).

As others have mentioned, a single device pulling 1Gbps in the home is asking a lot, even if it were connected to the home router via copper/fibre. As most devices in the home will be wi-fi-based, 1Gbps is safe (for now). Of course, more devices in the home will put pressure on 1Gbps, but not before they put pressure on the wi-fi network. So again, 1Gbps is safe, for now.

The wired devices that could draw on that 1Gbps big time will be the STB's, gaming consoles (even those use wi-fi), home media servers, e.t.c. Depending on what one does with those, they may or may not draw much from the 1Gbps fibre coming into the house.

Even if the service provider was dropping a 1080p or 4K IPTv Multicast stream into 3x STB's in the home (one for the living room, one for the man-cave and another random one in the house), and each STB had at least two tuners (watch on one tuner, record from another tuner), you're still looking at less than 120Mbps for all 3x STB's running + recording simultaneously, assuming each tuner is pulling 20Mbps when active. Of course, with 2015 families not glued to their Tv's as much as previous generations did, that is less demand for classic Tv.

So all in all, with 1Gbps, there is a reasonable chance that, at the very least, the connection between the home and the nearest service provider switch will be utilitarian. The problem now is, who gets that 1Gbps link to their house, around the world?

Mark.

On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 07:56:03AM +1000, Mark Andrews wrote:

You don't think about the size of power lines coming into a house as they are overkill for just about anything you will do in the house.

You don't think about the size of water pipes coming into a house as they are overkill for just about anything you will do in the house. Very occasionally you will want to connect directly to the mains (filling a pool) but otherwise the pipe is more that sufficient.

Water pipes are sized by pressure drop. You do not want your shower to have fluctuating water pressure if the washer is on while you're there. If you hook up a hose that is the same size as your water main, you can get quite a lot of water at an unacceptable pressure drop, but this may erode the pipe long-term and certainly makes it impossible to shower while you're doing it. Power cables are sized by voltage drop. If the power company sized the wires like they are usually done in houses (just big enough to not overheat and no more) your lights would dim every time you turn any appliance on and you would find it unacceptable. But you could get more power without the cable catching fire if you replaced the main breaker with a bigger one, just watch out for undervoltage and an upset power company. For some reason, it seems some people have problems grasping the idea of having an uncongested path to the Internet even though some of your devices are downloading updates and someone in your family is watching netflix. I wonder if these people leave the tap dripping overnight into a bucket so they can shower while not using more than a few liters per hour? Who would possibly ever need more? And I assume they need to store city gas in a bag to light up their cooker, too. And Tesla's home battery must be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Who would possibly need more than 1-2kW of power per person? Jussi

Based on our 1Gbps residential customers usage, I believe you just sit at home and run speedtest all day. Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2015, at 2:41 PM, Rafael Possamai <rafael@gav.ufsc.br> wrote:

How does one fully utilize a gigabit link for home use? For a single person it is overkill. Similar to the concept of price elasticity in economics, going from 50mbps to 1gbps doesn't necessarily increase your average transfer rate, at least I don't think it would for me. Anyone care to comment? Just really curious, as to me it's more of a marketing push than anything else, even though gigabit to the home sounds really cool.

...

On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Eric Dugas <EDugas@zerofail.com> wrote:

Nice try Bell.. So-Net did it two years ago, 2Gbps FTTH in Japan.

Article: http://bgr.com/2013/06/13/so-net-nuro-2gbps-fiber-service/

If you read Japanese: http://www.nuro.jp/hikari/

Eric

-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Hank Disuko Sent: June 26, 2015 2:04 PM To: NANOG Subject: World's Fastest Internet™ in Canadaland

Bell Canada is apparently gearing up to provide the good people of Toronto with the World's Fastest Internet™.

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2015/06/25/bell-canada-to-give-toronto...

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please contact the sender and destroy any copies of this document.

...

On Jun 26, 2015, at 2:41 PM, Rafael Possamai <rafael@gav.ufsc.br> wrote:

How does one fully utilize a gigabit link for home use? For a single person it is overkill. Similar to the concept of price elasticity in economics, going from 50mbps to 1gbps doesn't necessarily increase your average transfer rate, at least I don't think it would for me. Anyone care to comment? Just really curious, as to me it's more of a marketing push than anything else, even though gigabit to the home sounds really cool.

You don't run it hot all day long, it's just that you don't wait forever for things to download when you need something from the Internet.

On Jun 26, 2015, at 11:40 AM, TR Shaw <tshaw@oitc.com> wrote:

But what about us in Northwestern Ontario who can only get dialup, if that, from Bell?

Seriously - write to your MP and MLA. Landon Stewart landonstewart@gmail.com

Use wireless. There are reasonably priced point to point bridges available. -- Keith Stokes

On Jun 26, 2015, at 11:18 PM, Peter Kristolaitis <alter3d@alter3d.ca> wrote:

...

On 6/26/2015 7:26 PM, Joe Abley wrote:

...

On 26 Jun 2015, at 15:04, Hank Disuko wrote:

Bell Canada is apparently gearing up to provide the good people of Toronto with the World's Fastest Internet™. http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2015/06/25/bell-canada-to-give-toronto...

Bell Canada is in the business of defending the current regulatory regime from claims that internet speeds are slow, or that investment by incumbents in the last mile is lacking, or that it ought to be required to share its access network with competitors. Read the press with that context in mind.

There's cooperative, rural broadband in the UK [1] that offers 10G access to farms at a lower price than Bell charges for some satellite TV bundles. I don't think anybody need waste any cycles persuading other people here that the "fastest internet" claims are not aligned precisely with the kind reality you find even on this list.

Joe

[1] http://b4rn.org.uk

And defend the current regulatory regime well they do. I live literally minutes outside of the Ottawa urban area and I have as choices for network connectivity either LoS wireless or satellite. I can, however, stand at the end of my driveway and look in EITHER direction to see houses that can get cable service, yet none of the incumbents are willing to service my little stretch of road (affecting me and ~5 neighbours).

I'm told by the neighbours (I just moved here) that they've been bugging the incumbents for YEARS and getting no traction at all. I'm thinking of pricing out a fiber run and running a little local co-op network access provider for me and the neighbours, but I suspect that install costs might nix that idea.

(For extra fun, I was told by one of the incumbents that my address was serviceable with up to 150Mbps cable before I purchased the property. Then when I took possession and tried to get service set up -- nope, sorry. But that's a whole other story...)

On 30 June 2015 at 22:32, Jean-Francois Mezei <jfmezei_nanog@vaxination.ca> wrote:

BTW, initally, Bell limits it to 940mbps.

940 Mbps is what speedtest.net will give you on a linespeed 1 Gbps connection. That sounds more like marketing people trying to understand "overhead". Regards, Baldur