New location means we now get spam on Nanog? Could we go back to the old place?
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
New location means we now get spam on Nanog?
no extra charge :)
i have lived through maintaing decades of mailing lists and do not envy the nanog mailing list crew and glen over at amsl.
thanks for the hard work, folk.
Let's work harder -- seriously, MailMan seemed to be working fine. ~:-/ - ferg -- "Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawgster(at)gmail.com ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 8:00 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
thanks for the hard work, folk. Let's work harder
thanks for volunteering. when will you be flying out to the bay?
I already live in The Bay Area. Is there an 'revert' button? - ferg -- "Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawgster(at)gmail.com ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
On 7/12/2011 10:00 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
thanks for the hard work, folk. Let's work harder thanks for volunteering. when will you be flying out to the bay?
randy
I'm with you Randy, I'm disappointed with the complaints I see here. People don't seem to show much appreciation. Jason
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com>
thanks for the hard work, folk. Let's work harder
thanks for volunteering. when will you be flying out to the bay?
I suspect, Randy, that Ferg *knows* how to use ssh. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
I received no spam, and had I received 2 pieces, it may have been slightly irritating. What is irritating is the sheer number of people complaining about it. Can we stop please? I think they get it. -=Tom On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 09:58:42 -0500, Paul Ferguson <fergdawgster@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
New location means we now get spam on Nanog?
no extra charge :)
i have lived through maintaing decades of mailing lists and do not envy the nanog mailing list crew and glen over at amsl.
thanks for the hard work, folk.
Let's work harder -- seriously, MailMan seemed to be working fine. ~:-/
- ferg
-- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
On Jul 12, 2011, at 11:02 AM, Thomas Donnelly wrote:
I received no spam, and had I received 2 pieces, it may have been slightly irritating.
What is irritating is the sheer number of people complaining about it. Can we stop please? I think they get it.
-=Tom
Tom, you are one of the lucky ones -- I have received over two dozen SPAM via NANOG in the last 24 hours. And, yes, it would be gratifying to know why the change - is the new configuration less expensive? (to the list manager, not us, obviously) Also, where is the reply to header? James R. Cutler james.cutler@consultant.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com>
Also, where is the reply to header?
still in the garbage, where it belongs
NANOG, being a traditional, (semi-)public, technical mailing list, has never had a Reply-to header, and never should. I concur with the people who assert that adding the Reply-to header formally violates the relevant RFCs, quite aside from the Real World problems it can (and *has*) caused. http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
From nanog-bounces+bonomi=mail.r-bonomi.com@nanog.org Tue Jul 12 11:29:29 2011 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 12:22:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> To: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Spam?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com>
Also, where is the reply to header?
still in the garbage, where it belongs
NANOG, being a traditional, (semi-)public, technical mailing list, has never had a Reply-to header, and never should. I concur with the people who assert that adding the Reply-to header formally violates the relevant RFCs, quite aside from the Real World problems it can (and *has*) caused.
*SIGH* One more "problem" with the 'new system', Messages through it _have_ a Reply-to: header. Set to the putative email of the sender, no less.
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize? Thanks Larry Stites NCNetworks, Inc. Nevada City, CA 95959
On 2011-07-13 23:08 , Larry Stites wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Google. Greets, Jeroen
On (2011-07-13 14:08 -0700), Larry Stites wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Again? Buy AAPL, INTC and MSFT with loan money and study *cough*, finer things in life. But in all seriousness, networking like I suppose most professions are not about knowing one thing and stopping. It's evolving rather rapidly so most thing you know now are irrelevant in decade or two. What you should learn is how to learn, how to attack problems and learn to love doing both. -- ++ytti
Saku nailed it. Learn the networking basics and underlying concepts (OSI!), everything else is an "application" that runs on that, and can be picked up pretty easily if you understand what it depends on. Wireshark (or your favorite capture tool) is your friend. That said, I feel knowing some of the parallels like *nix and vendor specifics (ie if you know Cisco IOS, many others follow this interface like a standard) really comes in useful over time. -Scott On Thu, 2011-07-14 at 00:28 +0300, Saku Ytti wrote:
On (2011-07-13 14:08 -0700), Larry Stites wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Again? Buy AAPL, INTC and MSFT with loan money and study *cough*, finer things in life.
But in all seriousness, networking like I suppose most professions are not about knowing one thing and stopping. It's evolving rather rapidly so most thing you know now are irrelevant in decade or two. What you should learn is how to learn, how to attack problems and learn to love doing both.
Get an executive MBA then you can dictate to us lowly techs what technology we will use without ever having to know why. Plus you will earn 10x the $$$ by the time you are 30 without having to recertify every couple years. ________________________________________ From: Scott Berkman [scott@sberkman.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 7:01 PM To: Saku Ytti Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: OT: Given what you know now, if you were 21 again... Saku nailed it. Learn the networking basics and underlying concepts (OSI!), everything else is an "application" that runs on that, and can be picked up pretty easily if you understand what it depends on. Wireshark (or your favorite capture tool) is your friend. That said, I feel knowing some of the parallels like *nix and vendor specifics (ie if you know Cisco IOS, many others follow this interface like a standard) really comes in useful over time. -Scott On Thu, 2011-07-14 at 00:28 +0300, Saku Ytti wrote:
On (2011-07-13 14:08 -0700), Larry Stites wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Again? Buy AAPL, INTC and MSFT with loan money and study *cough*, finer things in life.
But in all seriousness, networking like I suppose most professions are not about knowing one thing and stopping. It's evolving rather rapidly so most thing you know now are irrelevant in decade or two. What you should learn is how to learn, how to attack problems and learn to love doing both.
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
But in all seriousness, networking like I suppose most professions are not about knowing one thing and stopping. It's evolving rather rapidly so most thing you know now are irrelevant in decade or two. What you should learn is how to learn, how to attack problems and learn to love doing both.
Totally agree. IMHO, the truly challenging (and most important) skills aren't technical in nature. They're things like the ability to work in, or especially lead, a team of people. Things like building functional business processes that account for all the little details of operations, or professionally handling customers with utterly disparate cultural values (timeliness, the honoring of contractual obligations, etc). So, I would put a strong initial emphasis on logic and critical thinking, as well as intercultural competence and basic business leadership/process engineering. I'd also snap up any courses I could find on learning effectively or on using research tools. Once you can learn effectively in a short period of time, and you know how to find the information you need to absorb, it becomes fairly trivial to acquire new technical (or otherwise) capacities. In fact, the limiting factor starts to become your imagination - "what do you think you want to learn?", and the best way to combat this is to have a balanced life with a healthy dose of social interaction (read: women - later, family). I've not yet met the person who won't burn out if they aren't distracted by non-virtual concerns on a regular basis. Nathan Eisenberg
On 7/13/2011 4:28 PM, Saku Ytti wrote:
On (2011-07-13 14:08 -0700), Larry Stites wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize? Again? Buy AAPL, INTC and MSFT with loan money and study *cough*, finer things in life.
But in all seriousness, networking like I suppose most professions are not about knowing one thing and stopping. It's evolving rather rapidly so most thing you know now are irrelevant in decade or two. What you should learn is how to learn, how to attack problems and learn to love doing both.
+1 If I had to have a job where I did the same thing every day, year after year, I'd stab a pencil in my eye. I love that our industry is constantly evolving. Jason
Once upon a time, Jason Baugher <jason@thebaughers.com> said:
If I had to have a job where I did the same thing every day, year after year, I'd stab a pencil in my eye. I love that our industry is constantly evolving.
Definate +1 to that. I look at how my father's job has changed in his 49+ years; he's gone from a hardware-in-the-loop simulator that took a room full of analog computer (because digital computers weren't fast enough) to where computers are small and powerful enough that they looked at running a sim in real-time on the flying vehicle (as additional guidance feedback). I dont't think anyone can realistically say what the Internet will look like 10 years from now, much less 50. Pundits like to guess, but they usually miss their "next year" predictions anyway. :-) -- Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net> Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
</lurk> Learn how to delegate -everything-, and actually do -nothing-... .. how to blame someone else when something goes wrong, even if it's -your- fault, and take full credit whenever anything goes well, even if it -isn't- yours.. Then, and only then, Grasshopper, you will be ready for */management/* in -/*any*/- of the Fortune 500 corporations. :-P -- Who is John Galt ? <lurk> On 07/13/2011 05:08 PM, Larry Stites wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Thanks
Larry Stites NCNetworks, Inc. Nevada City, CA 95959
Women -Hammer- "I was a normal American nerd" -Jack Herer On 07/13/2011 04:08 PM, Larry Stites wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Thanks
Larry Stites NCNetworks, Inc. Nevada City, CA 95959
---- Original Message -----
From: "-Hammer-" <bhmccie@gmail.com> On 07/13/2011 04:08 PM, Larry Stites wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Women
+30. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
* OSI layers 1 to 3 - so CCNA, MCP (or something dumb MS like), RHCE * Electrical eng - to best understand about the basics of copper and fibre. Also some focus on power systems - understand how a psu actually works! * wireless eng - you need to understand how a radio actually works, how an antenna actually works - do a course that involves building such - wokfy (google it!), tin can antennas. * C and assembler programming Yip, everything I'm talking about is low level and under well the bonnet. Every other bit of crap can be thrown on top. Sure, you can become an AppleTalk expert... what happens if we stop using that protocol? You can become an Exchange expert... what happens if someone... well you get the idea. HTH D On 14/07/2011 9:08 a.m., Larry Stites wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Thanks
Larry Stites NCNetworks, Inc. Nevada City, CA 95959
-- Don Gould 31 Acheson Ave Mairehau Christchurch, New Zealand Ph: + 64 3 348 7235 Mobile: + 64 21 114 0699
On 14/07/2011 9:08 a.m., Larry Stites wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Rebeccah Harris in my physics lectures. She was clearly up for it. -- Leigh ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________
Hi Larry, I would learn 2 things: * having fun learning * time management It's been almost 14 years since I was 21 and I concur with many of the things mentioned in this thread, and learned a few of them. However it wasn't all the time I spend studying and learning, it's all the time I spend being bored with studying that could have been easily solved with a little patience and guidance on how to have fun learning. It wasn't until I discovered the methods which were most effective for learning a certain subject and keeping it fun. Time management is another thing I would have wanted to start asap. So I could have scheduled the procrastination and use the best parts of the day to work or learn effectively. my 2c D. On 13/07/2011, Larry Stites <ncnet@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Thanks
Larry Stites NCNetworks, Inc. Nevada City, CA 95959
-- blaze your trail -- Daniël W. Crompton <daniel.crompton@gmail.com> <http://specialbrands.net/> <http://specialbrands.net/> http://specialbrands.net/ <http://twitter.com/webhat> <http://www.facebook.com/webhat><http://plancast.com/webhat><http://www.linkedin.com/in/redhat>
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Larry Stites <ncnet@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Make sure you are always learning. You can't stop learning in this industry. Study the academic side of computers, not just how to use specific systems. Know that systems other than the all-or-nothing superuser-based security model exist, what a functional programming language is, basic computational complexity, etc. Unix or Cisco aren't always the best choices, but if you don't know about the others you won't know that (FWIW, Cisco and Unix are often excellent choices). Learn to program reasonably well in at least a script language. Learn TCP/IP. It's going to be around for a while. Focus on IPv4, but expose yourself to IPv6. This is probably the only specific protocol/technology I'll mention. Don't limit yourself to layer 3. Learn about things like how to terminate fiber optic cables and how application acceleration works. Make sure you can write and speak well. Learn when to shut up. (I probably still haven't learned that one) Learn how to get along with people, even ones that aren't as brilliant as yourself. Learn how to appropriately show accomplishment. You don't want to be arrogant, but you also don't want to be laid off because nobody knew that you did great things. Learn that people almost always have a reason for doing things the wrong way, and it's best to find out what it is before you fix it! This is probably controversial...Don't specialize religiously. What I mean about this is "don't become a Cisco guy." Sure, you might become a Cisco expert, and that's fine. But don't lock yourself to a vendor or system type. Don't turn down a dream job that uses a different kind of router, server, workstation, etc, just because you like Cisco (or whoever) better. You won't want to use today's technology in a few years anyhow, so why make long-term decisions based on hardware/software used today? In the computer field, even giants have fallen. Learn that there is always someone smarter than you out there. Learn from them. You have to start somewhere. If you don't have good experience, you aren't going to start at a (insert nice salary here) senior position, no matter how much you know or what degree you have. You might have to start on the night shift of a NOC, making barely enough to eat, doing basic tasks. Even in a position like that, you can show you can learn - don't waste time while working in these jobs, spend your free time learning, not playing computer games or watching TV. You'll get noticed. Don't do illegal stuff. It'll limit your options. Pay your bills, don't do drugs, don't get picked up for drunk driving, don't beat your significant other. These are the things that disqualify people with even basic background checks - and many, many senior network jobs require a background check. Take opportunities. Consider jobs where you'll have to learn a bit to be effective - you might be the best person that applied. But don't expect to get jobs you aren't qualified for, and be honest about your abilities (but confident). Right now is a difficult time to get a job, even if you have terrific qualifications.
On 13 July 2011 14:08, Larry Stites <ncnet@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Given what you know now, if you were 21 and just starting into networking / communications industry which areas of study or specialty would you prioritize?
Number 1 - Learn how to learn. If you can't already do what Scott Young does, then start with this URL and check out some of the other content on that site <http://calnewport.com/blog/2011/05/18/anatomy-of-an-a-a-look-inside-the-process-of-one-of-the-worlds-most-efficient-studiers/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+StudyHacks+%28Study+Hacks%29> Number 2 is to learn how to set up a comprehensive virtualized test lab, and build complex networks on that. A lot of real-world router/switch software can run on virtual environments like Dynamips so you have a chance to dig in fairly deeply for little money. Number 3 is to leverage Ebay to buy old (and really cheap) routers and switches. Only buy the really cheap stuff because it will be old and broken in some way. Don't buy dead boxes, but the really cheap stuff might not even have IP on it, or it might be a really old and limited and buggy version. Make it work as best you can. Using version numbers, find out what bugs exist in a particular box, and see if you can trigger the bug and/or shield the box from harm. This is not only a good mental exercise but will give your knowledge some depth of experience that most existing people have, but which very few newcomers will ever get. Fact is that technology is still changing rapidly and you will need to constantly be learning new stuff so make sure you do the same. That's why number one above is so important. Don't specialize. Just follow what interests you and try to avoid getting over specialized because things change and it is hard to predict which specialties will be in demand in the future. But people who can think on their feet, have hands-on experience and are willing to do whatever needs doing today; those people will always in demand. P.S. you might also want to look into buying some microcontrollers and FPGAs, and building your own data comm protocols from scratch. Don't write a TCP/IP stack at first, but roll your own. Then if you happen across an old token-ring only router, see if you can build an interface to bridge it with Ethernet.
OMG can't you people run proper spam filtering on your own mail servers that filter out the nanog messages that are spam?! I think I've had two messages in the last month, while others of you are talking about dozens? Do you need to buy some hosting for your email accounts? D On 12/07/2011 8:59 p.m., Paul Graydon wrote:
New location means we now get spam on Nanog? Could we go back to the old place?
-- Don Gould 31 Acheson Ave Mairehau Christchurch, New Zealand Ph: + 64 3 348 7235 Mobile: + 64 21 114 0699
OMG can't you people run proper spam filtering on your own mail servers that filter out the nanog messages that are spam?!
I think I've had two messages in the last month, while others of you are talking about dozens?
Do you need to buy some hosting for your email accounts?
My filtering works great, thanks. It's just that I'd whitelisted Nanog as a reliable source of e-mail. Under the mailman setup where only subscribers were allowed to post that wasn't a problem. With the new format it was and a good half dozen e-mails got through to me (I certainly didn't see dozens). Does make me rather curious what the rejection stats are like for the old Mailman setup. Paul
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 06:48:54PM +1200, Don Gould wrote:
OMG can't you people run proper spam filtering on your own mail servers that filter out the nanog messages that are spam?!
One of the fundamental principles of spam mitigation is that blocking is usually best (in terms of: efficacy, accuracy, resource minimization, and other metrics) when applied as close to the source as possible. In the case of mailing lists, such as this one, it has been a best practice for many years to only permit traffic from subscribers (and optionally, from individually-listed addresses, which are often alternate addresses for subscribers). It is clear that a serious mistake was made during the attempted migration of this list, i.e., this best practice was not followed, thus allowing some number of messages from non-subscribers to reach some number of subscribers. The proper solution to this is most emphatically not to ask the thousands of NANOG subscribers to adjust their mail systems; the proper solution is to continue to employ this best practice. ---rsk
participants (24)
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-Hammer- -
Chris Adams -
Cutler James R -
Daniël W. Crompton -
Don Gould -
Florian Weimer -
Jason Baugher -
Jay Ashworth -
Jeroen Massar -
Joel Maslak -
Larry Stites -
Leigh Porter -
Mark Gauvin -
Michael Dillon -
Nathan Eisenberg -
Paul Ferguson -
Paul Graydon -
Randy Bush -
Richard Irving -
Richard Kulawiec -
Robert Bonomi -
Saku Ytti -
Scott Berkman -
Thomas Donnelly