Upstream bandwidth usage
OVBI: Average upstream data usage has nearly tripled since 2018 <https://www.fiercetelecom.com/broadband/ovbi-average-upstream-data-usage-has-nearly-tripled-2018> -- Fletcher Kittredge GWI 207-602-1134 www.gwi.net
With 430 GB versus 32 GV average down versus up usage today, according to your article, this is still not a case for symmetrical consumer bandwidth. Yes, the upstream usage increased slightly more than the downstream usage. But the ratio was still so big that it would take decades for them to join. I doubt they ever will. Consumers just don’t have that much days up to push yet, and probably never will. Also, a lot of that Usage can be explained by video conferencing during Covid, which has dropped off significantly already. -mel On Jun 9, 2022, at 12:22 PM, Fletcher Kittredge <fkittred@staff.gwi.net> wrote: OVBI: Average upstream data usage has nearly tripled since 2018<https://www.fiercetelecom.com/broadband/ovbi-average-upstream-data-usage-has-nearly-tripled-2018> -- Fletcher Kittredge GWI 207-602-1134 www.gwi.net<http://www.gwi.net>
On 6/9/22 1:26 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
With 430 GB versus 32 GV average down versus up usage today, according to your article, this is still not a case for symmetrical consumer bandwidth. Yes, the upstream usage increased slightly more than the downstream usage. But the ratio was still so big that it would take decades for them to join. I doubt they ever will. Consumers just don’t have that much days up to push yet, and probably never will.
Also, a lot of that Usage can be explained by video conferencing during Covid, which has dropped off significantly already.
If it's so tiny, why shape it aggressively? Why shouldn't I be able to burst to whatever is available at the moment? I would think most users would be happy with that. Mike
* mike@mtcc.com (Michael Thomas) [Thu 09 Jun 2022, 22:46 CEST]:
If it's so tiny, why shape it aggressively? Why shouldn't I be able to burst to whatever is available at the moment? I would think most users would be happy with that.
As SBC Global's peering policy roughly two decades ago stated, "No requirement for a balanced traffic exchange ratio due primarily to the asymmetric nature of current broadband metallic transmission systems such as ADSL and cable modems." -- Niels.
Because to maximize bandwith efficiency, ISPs, me included, sell that unused upstream bandwidth for website hosting and video streaming. -mel via cell
On Jun 9, 2022, at 1:47 PM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 6/9/22 1:26 PM, Mel Beckman wrote: With 430 GB versus 32 GV average down versus up usage today, according to your article, this is still not a case for symmetrical consumer bandwidth. Yes, the upstream usage increased slightly more than the downstream usage. But the ratio was still so big that it would take decades for them to join. I doubt they ever will. Consumers just don’t have that much days up to push yet, and probably never will.
Also, a lot of that Usage can be explained by video conferencing during Covid, which has dropped off significantly already.
If it's so tiny, why shape it aggressively? Why shouldn't I be able to burst to whatever is available at the moment? I would think most users would be happy with that.
Mike
On DOCSIS systems, upload/download ratios are frequency-mapped timeslot ratios that are not adjustable in real-time. On xDSL systems, upload/download ratios are - VERY roughly speaking - a function of how much spectrum is allocated to each direction based on each individual line's characteristics, and also not adjustable in real-time. Most fixed-wireless systems have similar limitations to one or the other above, although they vary in the details. Anecdote: I used to maintain/sell/support a system that could automatically "tune" DSL service for the prevailing line conditions (as these change with age, weather, interference, etc.) and I recall learning from one customer that auto-tuning any more often than every 24hrs became *severely* counter-productive, because the connection had to drop and re-negotiate every time a change was made because of the way DSL modems work; our product had to incorporate a fall-back where we reverted to ADSL 1M rates if the line was still down an hour later, in case the remote modem just refused to renegotiate at what should have been a perfectly valid profile (speed) for some reason or other. So the short answer is: because the harder limitation to solve is the last-mile technology, not the choke-points at the network edges where shaping happens. All that rate-shaping in the core is generally about preventing the downstream packet(s) that would overload the last-mile from ever reaching the last-mile device in the first place. However, if you're talking about fiber service, it's pretty much pure marketing-dept-driven BS, combined with some vague justification of not letting TOR nodes or copyright-ignoring seeders/Warez-providers/etc. overwhelm the network in unexpected ways. -Adam (who acknowledges he runs a very unusual SP network where rate-limiting is unheard of) Adam Thompson Consultant, Infrastructure Services MERLIN 100 - 135 Innovation Drive Winnipeg, MB R3T 6A8 (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only) https://www.merlin.mb.ca Chat with me on Teams: athompson@merlin.mb.ca
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+athompson=merlin.mb.ca@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Michael Thomas Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2022 3:46 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Upstream bandwidth usage
On 6/9/22 1:26 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
With 430 GB versus 32 GV average down versus up usage today, according to your article, this is still not a case for symmetrical consumer bandwidth. Yes, the upstream usage increased slightly more than the downstream usage. But the ratio was still so big that it would take decades for them to join. I doubt they ever will. Consumers just don’t have that much days up to push yet, and probably never will.
Also, a lot of that Usage can be explained by video conferencing during Covid, which has dropped off significantly already.
If it's so tiny, why shape it aggressively? Why shouldn't I be able to burst to whatever is available at the moment? I would think most users would be happy with that.
Mike
On 6/9/22 22:46, Michael Thomas wrote:
If it's so tiny, why shape it aggressively? Why shouldn't I be able to burst to whatever is available at the moment? I would think most users would be happy with that.
The issue is generally the underlying last mile access. Even GPON is not symmetric, although it offers higher bandwidth than legacy solutions. Mark.
Michael Thomas wrote:
If it's so tiny, why shape it aggressively? Why shouldn't I be able to burst to whatever is available at the moment? I would think most users would be happy with that.
Seemingly, to distinguish inexpensive economy and expensive business class services. Masataka Ohta
Due to the demand being predominately in the downward direction, half-duplex (or effectively half-duplex) systems either allocate more TDMA slots or more channels to downstream, at the expense of upstream. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2022 3:46:24 PM Subject: Re: Upstream bandwidth usage On 6/9/22 1:26 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
With 430 GB versus 32 GV average down versus up usage today, according to your article, this is still not a case for symmetrical consumer bandwidth. Yes, the upstream usage increased slightly more than the downstream usage. But the ratio was still so big that it would take decades for them to join. I doubt they ever will. Consumers just don’t have that much days up to push yet, and probably never will.
Also, a lot of that Usage can be explained by video conferencing during Covid, which has dropped off significantly already.
If it's so tiny, why shape it aggressively? Why shouldn't I be able to burst to whatever is available at the moment? I would think most users would be happy with that. Mike
On 6/10/22 6:52 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
Due to the demand being predominately in the downward direction, half-duplex (or effectively half-duplex) systems either allocate more TDMA slots or more channels to downstream, at the expense of upstream.
Well, my dsl provider has like a 25/5 50/10 so clearly everybody has the headroom to get to 10 at least. Marketing, of course, but I wonder how many support calls they got because "my internet is slow" from saturated upstream with zoom calls. I mean, most users have no clue about such things. Mike
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> *To: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Thursday, June 9, 2022 3:46:24 PM *Subject: *Re: Upstream bandwidth usage
On 6/9/22 1:26 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
With 430 GB versus 32 GV average down versus up usage today, according to your article, this is still not a case for symmetrical consumer bandwidth. Yes, the upstream usage increased slightly more than the downstream usage. But the ratio was still so big that it would take decades for them to join. I doubt they ever will. Consumers just don’t have that much days up to push yet, and probably never will.
Also, a lot of that Usage can be explained by video conferencing during Covid, which has dropped off significantly already.
If it's so tiny, why shape it aggressively? Why shouldn't I be able to burst to whatever is available at the moment? I would think most users would be happy with that.
Mike
It's not always something the service provider has the ability to change. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2022 2:38:29 PM Subject: Re: Upstream bandwidth usage On 6/10/22 6:52 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: Due to the demand being predominately in the downward direction, half-duplex (or effectively half-duplex) systems either allocate more TDMA slots or more channels to downstream, at the expense of upstream. Well, my dsl provider has like a 25/5 50/10 so clearly everybody has the headroom to get to 10 at least. Marketing, of course, but I wonder how many support calls they got because "my internet is slow" from saturated upstream with zoom calls. I mean, most users have no clue about such things. Mike <blockquote> ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2022 3:46:24 PM Subject: Re: Upstream bandwidth usage On 6/9/22 1:26 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
With 430 GB versus 32 GV average down versus up usage today, according to your article, this is still not a case for symmetrical consumer bandwidth. Yes, the upstream usage increased slightly more than the downstream usage. But the ratio was still so big that it would take decades for them to join. I doubt they ever will. Consumers just don’t have that much days up to push yet, and probably never will.
Also, a lot of that Usage can be explained by video conferencing during Covid, which has dropped off significantly already.
If it's so tiny, why shape it aggressively? Why shouldn't I be able to burst to whatever is available at the moment? I would think most users would be happy with that. Mike </blockquote>
Well, my dsl provider has like a 25/5 50/10 so clearly everybody has the headroom to get to 10 at least. I mean, most users have no clue about such things.
Lol I'm sure you're no network operator Michael. That's not accurate (well your first statement). On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 8:29 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
It's not always something the service provider has the ability to change.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Saturday, June 11, 2022 2:38:29 PM *Subject: *Re: Upstream bandwidth usage
On 6/10/22 6:52 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
Due to the demand being predominately in the downward direction, half-duplex (or effectively half-duplex) systems either allocate more TDMA slots or more channels to downstream, at the expense of upstream.
Well, my dsl provider has like a 25/5 50/10 so clearly everybody has the headroom to get to 10 at least. Marketing, of course, but I wonder how many support calls they got because "my internet is slow" from saturated upstream with zoom calls. I mean, most users have no clue about such things.
Mike
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> <mike@mtcc.com> *To: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Thursday, June 9, 2022 3:46:24 PM *Subject: *Re: Upstream bandwidth usage
On 6/9/22 1:26 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
With 430 GB versus 32 GV average down versus up usage today, according to your article, this is still not a case for symmetrical consumer bandwidth. Yes, the upstream usage increased slightly more than the downstream usage. But the ratio was still so big that it would take decades for them to join. I doubt they ever will. Consumers just don’t have that much days up to push yet, and probably never will.
Also, a lot of that Usage can be explained by video conferencing during Covid, which has dropped off significantly already.
If it's so tiny, why shape it aggressively? Why shouldn't I be able to burst to whatever is available at the moment? I would think most users would be happy with that.
Mike
On 6/9/22 22:26, Mel Beckman wrote:
With 430 GB versus 32 GV average down versus up usage today, according to your article, this is still not a case for symmetrical consumer bandwidth. Yes, the upstream usage increased slightly more than the downstream usage. But the ratio was still so big that it would take decades for them to join. I doubt they ever will. Consumers just don’t have that much days up to push yet, and probably never will.
I don't think download rate will ever equal upload rate, never mind get close. But certainly, it has been growing for the past 15 or so years, and will continue to rise as the Internet continues to become a place of community than it originally has been.
Also, a lot of that Usage can be explained by video conferencing during Covid, which has dropped off significantly already.
That certainly has contributed, but I expect that there are more people uploading content for day-to-day life than for work. Mark.
On 6/9/22 21:19, Fletcher Kittredge wrote:
OVBI: Average upstream data usage has nearly tripled since 2018 <https://www.fiercetelecom.com/broadband/ovbi-average-upstream-data-usage-has-nearly-tripled-2018>
People love to share. It's a pattern we began to see back in 2009, which was the biggest motivator for us to deliver FTTH services in select parks and dense residences, when Facebook and Youtube were taking off. Mark.
participants (9)
-
Adam Thompson -
Fletcher Kittredge -
Josh Luthman -
Mark Tinka -
Masataka Ohta -
Mel Beckman -
Michael Thomas -
Mike Hammett -
Niels Bakker