My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..
Sorry for the completely off topic rant here, but maybe it will garner some attention from the ARIN folks. So I am attempting a small startup business and and initially building out three sites and thought it would be good to register and upfront get my own IPv6 space instead of leasing from some other party or have to renumber as future things change Looking at the ARIN website and fee schedule, I see there is a blurb at the bottom of the RSP Categories and Fees about IPv6 fees being waived until December 31, 2026. My reaction was along the lines of this is great, it helps small companies and startups get IPv6 deployed and up and running in their environment. So I put in the request for a /44 initial request and provided all my justifications and within a couple of days I got word that my request was approved. Wonderful.. Then I proceed to get a $250 invoice for my /44 under a 3X-Small category! Huh?? So I call in and am told the waiver is only for those in a 2X-Service Category who want to obtain a 3X-Small Category subnet and that it really isn't a fee waiver, but that the 2X-Small Category organization will only be charged a 3X-Small fee of $250 and that the $500 fee. So ARIN, either quit the bait and switch, or fix the wording in the Fee Schedule AND provide a link to the full text of the waiver. As the blurb in the schedule mentions nothing about the 2X-Small Category and honestly, no fees are really waived. Again, apologies for the rant, but just needed to get it out there, the frustration of a small start up business owner..
*There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026. IMHO the wording here is clear.
On 2023-07-14 12:37 p.m., Robert Webb wrote:
Sorry for the completely off topic rant here, but maybe it will garner some attention from the ARIN folks.
So I am attempting a small startup business and and initially building out three sites and thought it would be good to register and upfront get my own IPv6 space instead of leasing from some other party or have to renumber as future things change
Looking at the ARIN website and fee schedule, I see there is a blurb at the bottom of the RSP Categories and Fees about IPv6 fees being waived until December 31, 2026. My reaction was along the lines of this is great, it helps small companies and startups get IPv6 deployed and up and running in their environment.
So I put in the request for a /44 initial request and provided all my justifications and within a couple of days I got word that my request was approved. Wonderful..
Then I proceed to get a $250 invoice for my /44 under a 3X-Small category! Huh??
So I call in and am told the waiver is only for those in a 2X-Service Category who want to obtain a 3X-Small Category subnet and that it really isn't a fee waiver, but that the 2X-Small Category organization will only be charged a 3X-Small fee of $250 and that the $500 fee.
So ARIN, either quit the bait and switch, or fix the wording in the Fee Schedule AND provide a link to the full text of the waiver. As the blurb in the schedule mentions nothing about the 2X-Small Category and honestly, no fees are really waived.
Again, apologies for the rant, but just needed to get it out there, the frustration of a small start up business owner.. -- Best regards August Yang
For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and the wording being taken at face value. On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 12:52 PM August Yang via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
*There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026. IMHO the wording here is clear.
On 2023-07-14 12:37 p.m., Robert Webb wrote:
Sorry for the completely off topic rant here, but maybe it will garner some attention from the ARIN folks.
So I am attempting a small startup business and and initially building out three sites and thought it would be good to register and upfront get my own IPv6 space instead of leasing from some other party or have to renumber as future things change
Looking at the ARIN website and fee schedule, I see there is a blurb at the bottom of the RSP Categories and Fees about IPv6 fees being waived until December 31, 2026. My reaction was along the lines of this is great, it helps small companies and startups get IPv6 deployed and up and running in their environment.
So I put in the request for a /44 initial request and provided all my justifications and within a couple of days I got word that my request was approved. Wonderful..
Then I proceed to get a $250 invoice for my /44 under a 3X-Small category! Huh??
So I call in and am told the waiver is only for those in a 2X-Service Category who want to obtain a 3X-Small Category subnet and that it really isn't a fee waiver, but that the 2X-Small Category organization will only be charged a 3X-Small fee of $250 and that the $500 fee.
So ARIN, either quit the bait and switch, or fix the wording in the Fee Schedule AND provide a link to the full text of the waiver. As the blurb in the schedule mentions nothing about the 2X-Small Category and honestly, no fees are really waived.
Again, apologies for the rant, but just needed to get it out there, the frustration of a small start up business owner.. -- Best regards August Yang
On Fri, 14 Jul 2023, Robert Webb wrote:
For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and the wording being taken at face value.
You just stopped reading after the part you liked :) "There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026." The "fee waiver" is that they're allowing a 3x-small org to grow into a 2x-small org's worth of v6 space while staying at the 3x-small org annual fee. Presumably, you could request a /40, and then request another (and another...), and as long as you have a /36 or less worth of v6 space, you'll still only owe $250/year for the IPv6 space until this "deal" expires at the end of 2026. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route StackPath, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
No, I didn't quit reading.. The issue being a newcomer and not fully versed on the levels, I never made the connection of the /36 to the 2X-Small Category. A simple addition of adding in a reference to that category would make it a lot more clear.. Something as simple as changing to the below, would have more easily triggered that connection. **There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category and not be charged at the 2X-Small fee schedule. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026.* On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 1:57 PM Jon Lewis <jlewis@lewis.org> wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2023, Robert Webb wrote:
For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and the wording being taken at face value.
You just stopped reading after the part you liked :)
"There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026."
The "fee waiver" is that they're allowing a 3x-small org to grow into a 2x-small org's worth of v6 space while staying at the 3x-small org annual fee.
Presumably, you could request a /40, and then request another (and another...), and as long as you have a /36 or less worth of v6 space, you'll still only owe $250/year for the IPv6 space until this "deal" expires at the end of 2026.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route StackPath, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
Robert, we will look to make the text more clear. Thanks John Sweeting, ARIN CCO Sent from my iPhone On Jul 14, 2023, at 2:17 PM, Robert Webb <rwfireguru@gmail.com> wrote: No, I didn't quit reading.. The issue being a newcomer and not fully versed on the levels, I never made the connection of the /36 to the 2X-Small Category. A simple addition of adding in a reference to that category would make it a lot more clear.. Something as simple as changing to the below, would have more easily triggered that connection. *There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category and not be charged at the 2X-Small fee schedule. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026. On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 1:57 PM Jon Lewis <jlewis@lewis.org<mailto:jlewis@lewis.org>> wrote: On Fri, 14 Jul 2023, Robert Webb wrote:
For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and the wording being taken at face value.
You just stopped reading after the part you liked :) "There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026." The "fee waiver" is that they're allowing a 3x-small org to grow into a 2x-small org's worth of v6 space while staying at the 3x-small org annual fee. Presumably, you could request a /40, and then request another (and another...), and as long as you have a /36 or less worth of v6 space, you'll still only owe $250/year for the IPv6 space until this "deal" expires at the end of 2026. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route StackPath, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
The issue being a newcomer and not fully versed on the levels, I never made the connection of the /36 to the 2X-Small Category. A simple addition of adding in a reference to that category would make it a lot more clear..
The service levels are defined right there in the chart above the wording on the fee waiver. What do you mean you 'weren't fully versed' on the levels? They are right there! Looking at the ARIN website and fee schedule, I see there is a blurb at the
bottom of the RSP Categories and Fees about IPv6 fees being waived until December 31, 2026. My reaction was along the lines of this is great, it helps small companies and startups get IPv6 deployed and up and running in their environment.
There is no possible way that anyone should interpret the current wording of the asterisk'd text as ALL IPv6 fees are waived until 2026. None. If that's your take away, I'm not sure what to say. As the blurb in the schedule mentions nothing about the 2X-Small Category
and honestly, no fees are really waived.
I'm 100% with John here. You didn't read it. The chart shows you what a 2X-Small category is. Very straight forward. Feedback that the text could be slightly more descriptive is perfectly legitimate. Accusing ARIN of 'bait and switch' because you didn't RTFM is not. On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 2:18 PM Robert Webb <rwfireguru@gmail.com> wrote:
No, I didn't quit reading..
The issue being a newcomer and not fully versed on the levels, I never made the connection of the /36 to the 2X-Small Category. A simple addition of adding in a reference to that category would make it a lot more clear..
Something as simple as changing to the below, would have more easily triggered that connection.
**There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category and not be charged at the 2X-Small fee schedule. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026.*
On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 1:57 PM Jon Lewis <jlewis@lewis.org> wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2023, Robert Webb wrote:
For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and the wording being taken at face value.
You just stopped reading after the part you liked :)
"There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026."
The "fee waiver" is that they're allowing a 3x-small org to grow into a 2x-small org's worth of v6 space while staying at the 3x-small org annual fee.
Presumably, you could request a /40, and then request another (and another...), and as long as you have a /36 or less worth of v6 space, you'll still only owe $250/year for the IPv6 space until this "deal" expires at the end of 2026.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route StackPath, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 8:57 PM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
There is no possible way that anyone should interpret the current wording of the asterisk'd text as ALL IPv6 fees are waived until 2026. None. If that's your take away, I'm not sure what to say.
Hi Tom, I think the point is that "waiver" is the wrong word. It's not a waiver, it's a discount. You go calling things waivers that aren't, someone's gonna miss the asterisk and get rudely surprised. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
On 7/14/23 12:04 PM, Robert Webb wrote:
For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and the wording being taken at face value. Drive by comment:
I can see how someone not in the know -- like myself -- could mistake this the way that Robert did. I can also see how it might be taken differently by those in the know. "There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category." I can see that as both "(new) organizations (that aren't currently registered) that are the size of a 3X-Small..." and "(existing 3X-Small) organizations that are (already registered and) the size of a 3X-Small..." It seems somewhat unclear to me if it applies to new registrants or if it's a perk for existing registrants to grow. Just my $0.02 worth as I drive by. Grant. . . .
This screams of entitlement. If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you probably shouldn't be starting a new business. Sorry On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 4:00 PM Grant Taylor via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
On 7/14/23 12:04 PM, Robert Webb wrote:
For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and the wording being taken at face value. Drive by comment:
I can see how someone not in the know -- like myself -- could mistake this the way that Robert did. I can also see how it might be taken differently by those in the know.
"There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category."
I can see that as both "(new) organizations (that aren't currently registered) that are the size of a 3X-Small..." and "(existing 3X-Small) organizations that are (already registered and) the size of a 3X-Small..."
It seems somewhat unclear to me if it applies to new registrants or if it's a perk for existing registrants to grow.
Just my $0.02 worth as I drive by.
Grant. . . .
-- Darin Steffl Minnesota WiFi www.mnwifi.com 507-634-WiFi Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi>
If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you probably shouldn't be starting a new business.
That seems a little tone deaf and extremely insensitive to a lot of non-profit organizations who fight for every penny they can. -Matt On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 3:06 PM Darin Steffl <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com> wrote:
This screams of entitlement. If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you probably shouldn't be starting a new business. Sorry
On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 4:00 PM Grant Taylor via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
On 7/14/23 12:04 PM, Robert Webb wrote:
For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and the wording being taken at face value. Drive by comment:
I can see how someone not in the know -- like myself -- could mistake this the way that Robert did. I can also see how it might be taken differently by those in the know.
"There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category."
I can see that as both "(new) organizations (that aren't currently registered) that are the size of a 3X-Small..." and "(existing 3X-Small) organizations that are (already registered and) the size of a 3X-Small..."
It seems somewhat unclear to me if it applies to new registrants or if it's a perk for existing registrants to grow.
Just my $0.02 worth as I drive by.
Grant. . . .
-- Darin Steffl Minnesota WiFi www.mnwifi.com 507-634-WiFi Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi>
-- Matt Erculiani ERCUL-ARIN
Where did I EVER say I couldn't afford it and wasn't going to pay. Please quit assuming!! On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 5:07 PM Darin Steffl <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com> wrote:
This screams of entitlement. If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you probably shouldn't be starting a new business. Sorry
On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 4:00 PM Grant Taylor via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
On 7/14/23 12:04 PM, Robert Webb wrote:
For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and the wording being taken at face value. Drive by comment:
I can see how someone not in the know -- like myself -- could mistake this the way that Robert did. I can also see how it might be taken differently by those in the know.
"There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category."
I can see that as both "(new) organizations (that aren't currently registered) that are the size of a 3X-Small..." and "(existing 3X-Small) organizations that are (already registered and) the size of a 3X-Small..."
It seems somewhat unclear to me if it applies to new registrants or if it's a perk for existing registrants to grow.
Just my $0.02 worth as I drive by.
Grant. . . .
-- Darin Steffl Minnesota WiFi www.mnwifi.com 507-634-WiFi Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi>
On 7/14/23 4:05 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:
This screams of entitlement. If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you probably shouldn't be starting a new business. Sorry
Why do you assume that I was even thinking about cost. I was talking purely about understanding and how it could go either way. The cost is immaterial to my statement. Grant. . . .
On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 2:09 PM Darin Steffl <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com> wrote:
This screams of entitlement. If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you probably shouldn't be starting a new business. Sorry
#define SOAPBOX Darin, Please remember ARIN covers more than just the relatively prosperous United States. There are places like Jamaica, which are also in the ARIN region, where the average annual income is $2,337. Having to put aside 11% of your annual income for ARIN registry fees to start a business is a big decision. I don't think you'd like it if we called you "entitled" for not wanting to shell out 11% of your annual income for ARIN fees to start a business. While NANOG by name does narrow the focus to just "North America", we should all remember that even in North America, wealth is not distributed equally. There are communities that very much need the economic development that new businesses can bring, where a $250/year annual fee represents a significant headwind. Rather than pooh-pooh their concerns, we should instead strive to see the world through that entrepreneur's eyes, and address their concerns, rather than brush them aside. Thanks! Matt #undef SOAPBOX
#define SOAPBOX
Please remember ARIN covers more than just the relatively prosperous United States. There are places like Jamaica, which are also in the ARIN region, where the average annual income is $2,337.
indeed i find this thread to be depressing. the economics you mention, of course. but also folk being rude, judgemental, and blaming the user for being confused by the complex and jargon-infested bureaucrazy we have created in the rirs. and yes, props to the rirs for trying to document rules and processes. but that often seems to create even more documents. and, of course, if you have to deal with multiple rirs, expect no parallelism, similar nomenclature, etc. it is very easy for a new rir user to get confused by corner cases, terminology, quirks of history, and the detritus of our amateur policy wonkage. give 'em a break. and see if we can round off the rough edges where they got caught. randy --- note that i use the first person plural
On Jul 16, 2023, at 3:33 PM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote: … and see if we can round off the rough edges where they got caught. To that end, the “IPv6 fee waiver” text on the fee schedule has been expanded to more fully explain its operation. From <https://www.arin.net/resources/fees/fee_schedule/> – *There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service category allowing for more IPv6 resources than normal while still remaining in the 3X-Small service category and paying only the 3X-Small service category fee. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category rather than being charged the 2X-Small service category fee. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026. The terminology “fee waiver” is acknowledged as less than ideal, but has been retained for consistency as there’s extensive historical references to it in this manner – it is hoped that the more extensive explanation will suffice to clarify any confusion in how it is actually handled. Thanks, /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers
Hello, I think you misread the ARIN fee waiver guideline, they basically state that you can get up to a /36 of IPv6 space, 2x-Small, while paying for 3X-Small pricing. Rishi Panthee On Jul 14, 2023, at 11:37 AM, Robert Webb <rwfireguru@gmail.com> wrote: Sorry for the completely off topic rant here, but maybe it will garner some attention from the ARIN folks. So I am attempting a small startup business and and initially building out three sites and thought it would be good to register and upfront get my own IPv6 space instead of leasing from some other party or have to renumber as future things change Looking at the ARIN website and fee schedule, I see there is a blurb at the bottom of the RSP Categories and Fees about IPv6 fees being waived until December 31, 2026. My reaction was along the lines of this is great, it helps small companies and startups get IPv6 deployed and up and running in their environment. So I put in the request for a /44 initial request and provided all my justifications and within a couple of days I got word that my request was approved. Wonderful.. Then I proceed to get a $250 invoice for my /44 under a 3X-Small category! Huh?? So I call in and am told the waiver is only for those in a 2X-Service Category who want to obtain a 3X-Small Category subnet and that it really isn't a fee waiver, but that the 2X-Small Category organization will only be charged a 3X-Small fee of $250 and that the $500 fee. So ARIN, either quit the bait and switch, or fix the wording in the Fee Schedule AND provide a link to the full text of the waiver. As the blurb in the schedule mentions nothing about the 2X-Small Category and honestly, no fees are really waived. Again, apologies for the rant, but just needed to get it out there, the frustration of a small start up business owner..
participants (13)
-
August Yang -
Darin Steffl -
Grant Taylor -
John Curran -
John Sweeting -
Jon Lewis -
Matt Erculiani -
Matthew Petach -
Randy Bush -
Rishi Panthee -
Robert Webb -
Tom Beecher -
William Herrin