There were a lot of NTP threads several weeks ago, but I didn't get an answer to my question amongst all of the other chatter. I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with. I know that MicroSemi via Symmetricom makes these kinds of devices, but I'm hoping to look at multiple manufacturers and compare. Thanks. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
GPS inside a building probably isn't going to work unless you have the antenna up against a window. Look at CDMA NTP Servers like the EndRun Sonoma. They use the cellular network which requires accurate timing and has good building penetration. - Ethan O'Toole
Isn't a major problem with CDMA-based sources that the networks they depend on are getting shut down? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan O'Toole" <telmnstr@757.org> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 9:46:24 AM Subject: Re: Time and Timing Servers
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
GPS inside a building probably isn't going to work unless you have the antenna up against a window. Look at CDMA NTP Servers like the EndRun Sonoma. They use the cellular network which requires accurate timing and has good building penetration. - Ethan O'Toole
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 09:50:48AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
Isn't a major problem with CDMA-based sources that the networks they depend on are getting shut down?
Domestically, yes. Not only are you dependant on Sprint if you go that route (Verizon is already pulling the plug on CDMA this year.), it was never any better than +/- 10 ms or so. You can get that via NTP pointed at the Internet. At best, all you were doing with CDMA was relying on a cell site's GPS receiver and holdover characteristics -- which were totally opaque to you. At least you can monitor NTP. --msa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Majdi S. Abbas" <msa@latt.net>
Not only are you dependant on Sprint if you go that route (Verizon is already pulling the plug on CDMA this year.), it was never any better than +/- 10 ms or so. You can get that via NTP pointed at the Internet.
Oh, is *that* why Tracfone's telling it's customers to get new phones by December... Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On 7/15/2019 1:02 PM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Majdi S. Abbas" <msa@latt.net>
Not only are you dependant on Sprint if you go that route (Verizon is already pulling the plug on CDMA this year.), it was never any better than +/- 10 ms or so. You can get that via NTP pointed at the Internet.
Oh, is *that* why Tracfone's telling it's customers to get new phones by December...
Wonder if that means VZW is planning on increasing coverage, because there are large enough areas of Idaho where I have to turn off LTE on my phone in order to get reliable service (or even functional data service). It gets really old really quick. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
Yes, expect CDMA cellular to disappear before too long. Verizon is shutting down their CDMA network at the end of this year. Sprint announced in February 2019 that it is no longer activating CDMA-only devices starting May 1 2019. No sunset date has been announced yet but suffice it to say the ball is in motion to sunset their CDMA network. Any of the regional carriers that run CDMA networks are likely to follow suit in short order. Ryan Wilkins
On Jul 11, 2019, at 10:50 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Isn't a major problem with CDMA-based sources that the networks they depend on are getting shut down?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> From: "Ethan O'Toole" <telmnstr@757.org> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 9:46:24 AM Subject: Re: Time and Timing Servers
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
GPS inside a building probably isn't going to work unless you have the antenna up against a window.
Look at CDMA NTP Servers like the EndRun Sonoma. They use the cellular network which requires accurate timing and has good building penetration.
- Ethan O'Toole
Ethan O'Toole <telmnstr@757.org>:
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
GPS inside a building probably isn't going to work unless you have the antenna up against a window.
Concur. But if you have that, my microserver build on a Raspberry Pi will do nicely. https://www.ntpsec.org/white-papers/stratum-1-microserver-howto/ No need for expensive proprietary hardware. -- <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 09:29:46AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
There were a lot of NTP threads several weeks ago, but I didn't get an answer to my question amongst all of the other chatter.
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
Unfortunately, L band satellite signals are incredibly weak by the time they reach the surface. It's very unlikely this is going to work for you (unless it's a wood framed single story building.) Generally, I try to ensure that a GNSS antenna is built into the contract, to avoid games like this. You have two options: A) Find a new colocation provider. This may already be on your to-do list for other reasons. B) Rely on the Internet for timing, using NTP or PTP from another location to backfeed the site, and use a box with a good stable oscillator to keep time (this can actually be a commercial time server with decent holdover characteristics. If you're just looking for alternatives to Microsemi, I highly recommend talking to the fine folks at Meinberg. --msa
I'll look into Meinberg. I recent thread mentioned high-sensitivity receivers often allow GPS to work inside. Obviously "inside" has a lot of definitions. I will need this facility for the TDM timing signals. It's a central office, not a datacenter. I don't know that Internet-based NTP would be accurate enough for the timing signals that I need. Maybe, maybe not. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Majdi S. Abbas" <msa@latt.net> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 9:54:26 AM Subject: Re: Time and Timing Servers On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 09:29:46AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
There were a lot of NTP threads several weeks ago, but I didn't get an answer to my question amongst all of the other chatter.
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
Unfortunately, L band satellite signals are incredibly weak by the time they reach the surface. It's very unlikely this is going to work for you (unless it's a wood framed single story building.) Generally, I try to ensure that a GNSS antenna is built into the contract, to avoid games like this. You have two options: A) Find a new colocation provider. This may already be on your to-do list for other reasons. B) Rely on the Internet for timing, using NTP or PTP from another location to backfeed the site, and use a box with a good stable oscillator to keep time (this can actually be a commercial time server with decent holdover characteristics. If you're just looking for alternatives to Microsemi, I highly recommend talking to the fine folks at Meinberg. --msa
On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:23 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
I'll look into Meinberg.
I recent thread mentioned high-sensitivity receivers often allow GPS to work inside. Obviously "inside" has a lot of definitions.
I will need this facility for the TDM timing signals. It's a central office, not a datacenter.
I don't know that Internet-based NTP would be accurate enough for the timing signals that I need. Maybe, maybe not.
My experience with Dave Mills NTP algorithm is that, giving sufficient diversity in higher stratum sources, GPS versus Internet sources makes no practical difference. This assumes that you are concerned with Time for event logging and scheduling and not concerned with frequency and phase for clocking data on TDM instances. If you are worrying about backhoe fade — it’s consequences will most likely affect other things more strongly than Time differences. James R. Cutler James.cutler@consultant.com GPG keys: hkps://hkps.pool.sks-keyservers.net
James R Cutler <james.cutler@consultant.com>:
My experience with Dave Mills NTP algorithm is that, giving sufficient diversity in higher stratum sources, GPS versus Internet sources makes no practical difference. This assumes that you are concerned with Time for event logging and scheduling and not concerned with frequency and phase for clocking data on TDM instances.
If you are worrying about backhoe fade — it’s consequences will most likely affect other things more strongly than Time differences.
I'm a subject-matter expert in Internet time service (tech lead of NTPsec) and I concur. Local GPS sources are nice to have and fun to play with but not essential unless you have a mission requitement to run autonomous. Note by the way that you *can* run completely autonomous with NTPsec, but not with the NTF version. https://blog.ntpsec.org/2017/08/30/achieving-autonomy.html -- <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
A couple of thoughts here: 1) I know at some sites there is an external, shared, GPS antenna which is run through a distribution amplifier to clients. Worth checking into just in case it exists and they forgot to offer it to you. 2) Do you have any specs on what you need for the TDM clock? If you don't have GPS or any other reasonable way to discipline your local clock you could conceivably get an accurate freerunning clock and use that. However, if this is even possible is going to be based on the accuracy/precision needed for the clock. The spec should be something like 10E-11 or something like that, possibly with jitter or other specs specified as well. The more accurate, the fewer options you will have and the more it will cost. If you only need 10E-6, you can do this dirt cheap. If you need 10E-13, you're going to need a Cesium clock which will set you back a good five figures (and then some). 3) Do you have spare, dark fiber or perhaps even a WDM color to somewhere you can get GPS? Copper might even work depending on the needs of the switch. The thought here is if you have a stable, non-packetized link to somewhere with GPS you then have quite a few options for transferring time back to the site. I agree with you that NTP time transfer isn't probably accurate enough by itself to discipline a clock for TDM... of course depending on the exact needs. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 9:25 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
I'll look into Meinberg.
I recent thread mentioned high-sensitivity receivers often allow GPS to work inside. Obviously "inside" has a lot of definitions.
I will need this facility for the TDM timing signals. It's a central office, not a datacenter.
I don't know that Internet-based NTP would be accurate enough for the timing signals that I need. Maybe, maybe not.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Majdi S. Abbas" <msa@latt.net> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 9:54:26 AM *Subject: *Re: Time and Timing Servers
There were a lot of NTP threads several weeks ago, but I didn't get an answer to my question amongst all of the other chatter.
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without
assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 09:29:46AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote: the provide
a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
Unfortunately, L band satellite signals are incredibly weak by the time they reach the surface. It's very unlikely this is going to work for you (unless it's a wood framed single story building.)
Generally, I try to ensure that a GNSS antenna is built into the contract, to avoid games like this.
You have two options:
A) Find a new colocation provider. This may already be on your to-do list for other reasons.
B) Rely on the Internet for timing, using NTP or PTP from another location to backfeed the site, and use a box with a good stable oscillator to keep time (this can actually be a commercial time server with decent holdover characteristics.
If you're just looking for alternatives to Microsemi, I highly recommend talking to the fine folks at Meinberg.
--msa
-- - Forrest
----- Original Message -----
From: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" <lists@packetflux.com>
A couple of thoughts here:
1) I know at some sites there is an external, shared, GPS antenna which is run through a distribution amplifier to clients. Worth checking into just in case it exists and they forgot to offer it to you.
Or, there may be someone else in the facility who *is* "important" enough to justify being permitted a roof antenna, who could put in a DA and share it with you... Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
It sounds like my only option within that facility is BITS. I've asked Metaswitch what their requirements are for the TDM clock. I will shortly. I could put something up at a friendly customer and pipe it back into the CO. My current thought is maybe there's a box that can take an off-site input and the Frontier BITS input, then output "authoritative" time and timing signals. I hate depending on the ILEC (odd, considering I'm in the CO, making them responsible for many things), so maybe I can mitigate that risk with an external input and some local intelligence. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" <lists@packetflux.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "Majdi S. Abbas" <msa@latt.net>, "nanog list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 11:42:33 PM Subject: Re: Time and Timing Servers A couple of thoughts here: 1) I know at some sites there is an external, shared, GPS antenna which is run through a distribution amplifier to clients. Worth checking into just in case it exists and they forgot to offer it to you. 2) Do you have any specs on what you need for the TDM clock? If you don't have GPS or any other reasonable way to discipline your local clock you could conceivably get an accurate freerunning clock and use that. However, if this is even possible is going to be based on the accuracy/precision needed for the clock. The spec should be something like 10E-11 or something like that, possibly with jitter or other specs specified as well. The more accurate, the fewer options you will have and the more it will cost. If you only need 10E-6, you can do this dirt cheap. If you need 10E-13, you're going to need a Cesium clock which will set you back a good five figures (and then some). 3) Do you have spare, dark fiber or perhaps even a WDM color to somewhere you can get GPS? Copper might even work depending on the needs of the switch. The thought here is if you have a stable, non-packetized link to somewhere with GPS you then have quite a few options for transferring time back to the site. I agree with you that NTP time transfer isn't probably accurate enough by itself to discipline a clock for TDM... of course depending on the exact needs. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 9:25 AM Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: I'll look into Meinberg. I recent thread mentioned high-sensitivity receivers often allow GPS to work inside. Obviously "inside" has a lot of definitions. I will need this facility for the TDM timing signals. It's a central office, not a datacenter. I don't know that Internet-based NTP would be accurate enough for the timing signals that I need. Maybe, maybe not. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Majdi S. Abbas" < msa@latt.net > To: "Mike Hammett" < nanog@ics-il.net > Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 9:54:26 AM Subject: Re: Time and Timing Servers On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 09:29:46AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
There were a lot of NTP threads several weeks ago, but I didn't get an answer to my question amongst all of the other chatter.
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
Unfortunately, L band satellite signals are incredibly weak by the time they reach the surface. It's very unlikely this is going to work for you (unless it's a wood framed single story building.) Generally, I try to ensure that a GNSS antenna is built into the contract, to avoid games like this. You have two options: A) Find a new colocation provider. This may already be on your to-do list for other reasons. B) Rely on the Internet for timing, using NTP or PTP from another location to backfeed the site, and use a box with a good stable oscillator to keep time (this can actually be a commercial time server with decent holdover characteristics. If you're just looking for alternatives to Microsemi, I highly recommend talking to the fine folks at Meinberg. --msa -- - Forrest
Subject: Re: Time and Timing Servers Date: Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:23:41AM -0500 Quoting Mike Hammett (nanog@ics-il.net):
I'll look into Meinberg.
Meinberg are nice people with good hardware. They can do 2048KHz from GPS and other timing signals, for instance. Then again, some router vendors do that in boxes you need anyway. As long as the controlling clock is PTP.
I recent thread mentioned high-sensitivity receivers often allow GPS to work inside. Obviously "inside" has a lot of definitions.
Indeed. Colo buildings rarely are on the forgiving side of "inside". In Sweden, most older central offices are built to some degree of bomb proofness (certainly not safe from direct hit) , with some 10mm of steel in shutters for all windows, etc. GPS fares not well there.
I will need this facility for the TDM timing signals. It's a central office, not a datacenter.
Then you're concerned with frequency and phase to ITU-T G.812, I suspect. Unless this is your "central central" office, in which case you need G.811.
I don't know that Internet-based NTP would be accurate enough for the timing signals that I need. Maybe, maybe not.
The current trend in today's large frequency/phase consumers, ie. mobile, is to run PTP over backhaul. Well behaved NTP _could_ make it, I suspect, given a good enough clock in the facility, but PTP will definitely work, assuming you have transmission and hardware capable of doing it. "Capable" here, means dark fibre or WDM is required together with routers and switches that can act as boundaries in PTP sense. If you rent MPLS or are using plain Internet infrastructure, it becomes a lot more complicated. There are frequency/phase transmission solutions (mostly broadcast related) that easily can transfer your central central cæsium clock frequency to another site using reasonable-quality IP transport, but those are neither cheap nor fire-and-forget. -- Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina MN-1334-RIPE SA0XLR +46 705 989668 I'm gliding over a NUCLEAR WASTE DUMP near ATLANTA, Georgia!!
On Jul 11, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
Since it’s a telco facility, maybe they can provide BITS service. Worth asking. —Chris
They can do BITS, but that doesn't solve all of my problems. That said, I may have to do many things if I can't find my wonder box. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Boyd" <cboyd@gizmopartners.com> To: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 10:03:02 AM Subject: Re: Time and Timing Servers
On Jul 11, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
Since it’s a telco facility, maybe they can provide BITS service. Worth asking. —Chris
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:30 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
There were a lot of NTP threads several weeks ago, but I didn't get an answer to my question amongst all of the other chatter.
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
I know that MicroSemi via Symmetricom makes these kinds of devices, but I'm hoping to look at multiple manufacturers and compare.
I have a Symmetricom S250 with the Rb option -- it has an active antenna; while it does *technically* work inside buildings it really needs to be jammed right up against a window to work. In my (top floor in my house) office it gets no reception unless against a window... W
Thanks.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
-- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf
I think you are referencing their chip scale atomic clocks. Which are very frequency stable. But still need phase alignment. (Mobile UPS anyone?) Maybe some peers can provide transparent or boundry clock support. Or someone close by in the DC can add an antenna splitter. Karsten Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> schrieb am Do., 11. Juli 2019, 16:31:
There were a lot of NTP threads several weeks ago, but I didn't get an answer to my question amongst all of the other chatter.
I'm looking for a device that can receive GPS inside a building without the assistance of an external antenna (Frontier says they no longer allow external antenna), will provide traditional NTP services, and will provide a timing signal that my Metaswitch can work with.
I know that MicroSemi via Symmetricom makes these kinds of devices, but I'm hoping to look at multiple manufacturers and compare.
Thanks.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
Subject: Re: Time and Timing Servers Date: Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 09:11:13PM +0200 Quoting Karsten Elfenbein (karsten.elfenbein@gmail.com):
I think you are referencing their chip scale atomic clocks. Which are very frequency stable. But still need phase alignment. (Mobile UPS anyone?)
This is not a new problem. http://www.leapsecond.com/hpj/v15n11/ Fascinating reading. -- Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina MN-1334-RIPE SA0XLR +46 705 989668 YOW!! Now I understand advanced MICROBIOLOGY and th' new TAX REFORM laws!!
participants (13)
-
Brielle Bruns -
Chris Boyd -
Eric S. Raymond -
Ethan O'Toole -
Forrest Christian (List Account) -
James R Cutler -
Jay R. Ashworth -
Karsten Elfenbein -
Majdi S. Abbas -
Mike Hammett -
Måns Nilsson -
Ryan Wilkins -
Warren Kumari