Has anyone had any luck lately getting dry pairs from AT&T? I'm in the Chicago area attempting to get a dry pair between two buildings (100ft apart) for some equipment, but when speaking to several folks at AT&T the response I get is "You want AT&T service without the service? That's not logical!". Had no problems 3-4 years ago getting these sorts of "circuits", but it appears it's gone the way of the dodo now. Any emails off-list are appreciated. -- Brandon Galbraith US Voice: 630.492.0464
Years ago I managed to get a dry pair from Verizon for some homebrew DSL, but there was some telco specific term for the dry pair, like "series 7 alarm circuit" or something. AT&T may have their own term. -Ryan On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Brandon Galbraith < brandon.galbraith@gmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone had any luck lately getting dry pairs from AT&T? I'm in the Chicago area attempting to get a dry pair between two buildings (100ft apart) for some equipment, but when speaking to several folks at AT&T the response I get is "You want AT&T service without the service? That's not logical!". Had no problems 3-4 years ago getting these sorts of "circuits", but it appears it's gone the way of the dodo now. Any emails off-list are appreciated.
-- Brandon Galbraith US Voice: 630.492.0464
-----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shea Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 2:21 PM To: Brandon Galbraith Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: AT&T Dry Pairs?
Years ago I managed to get a dry pair from Verizon for some homebrew DSL, but there was some telco specific term for the dry pair, like "series 7 alarm circuit" or something. AT&T may have their own term.
-Ryan
Just plain "alarm circuit" works in most cases but it has been a while here as well.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Hibernia-Atlantic-to-bw-3184701710.html?x=0&.v=1 Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic Budapest, New York, and Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Landline: 36+1+784+7975 AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth rod.beck@hiberniaatlantic.com info@globalwholesalebandwidth.com ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Hibernia-Atlantic-to-bw-3184701710.html?x=0&.v=1 Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic
Sales spam - but still - very close to minimum possible latency! 3471 miles @ 186,282 miles/s * 1.5 in glass * 2 round trip = 55.9ms.
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:01:25 BST, Heath Jones said:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Hibernia-Atlantic-to-bw-3184701710.html?x=0&.v=1
Sales spam - but still - very close to minimum possible latency! 3471 miles @ 186,282 miles/s * 1.5 in glass * 2 round trip = 55.9ms.
My first thought is that they've found a way to cheat on the 1.5. If you can make it work at 1.4, you get down to 52.2ms - but get it *too* low and all your photons leak out the sides. Hmm.. Unless you have a magic core that runs at 1.1 and a *cladding* that's up around 2.0?
Yeah, I wonder when we're gonna see cable that's pumped down to a vacuum in the center? :) On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Heath Jones <hj1980@gmail.com> wrote:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Hibernia-Atlantic-to-bw-3184701710.html?x=0&.v=1
Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic
Sales spam - but still - very close to minimum possible latency! 3471 miles @ 186,282 miles/s * 1.5 in glass * 2 round trip = 55.9ms.
Yeah, I wonder when we're gonna see cable that's pumped down to a vacuum in the center? :)
Start pumping.. :) Actually, to my surprise, the refractive index in air is quite close to a vacuum - so I figured we could set up a laser link between NY and London, with 'yo mama' sitting in a boat in the middle of the Atlantic to give it the required bend... ps. that concludes my very poor attempt at humour.
Is that a straight line calculation or did you take into account that a straight line is not the shortest path on a curved surface? -----Original Message----- From: dorn@hetzel.org on behalf of Dorn Hetzel Sent: Fri 10/1/2010 3:11 PM To: Heath Jones Cc: Rod Beck; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: A New TransAtlantic Cable System Yeah, I wonder when we're gonna see cable that's pumped down to a vacuum in the center? :) On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Heath Jones <hj1980@gmail.com> wrote:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Hibernia-Atlantic-to-bw-3184701710.html?x=0&.v=1
Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic
Sales spam - but still - very close to minimum possible latency! 3471 miles @ 186,282 miles/s * 1.5 in glass * 2 round trip = 55.9ms.
On 2 October 2010 10:52, Rod Beck <Rod.Beck@hiberniaatlantic.com> wrote:
Is that a straight line calculation or did you take into account that a straight line is not the shortest path on a curved surface?
Well that is pretty obvious to most, but no - I didn't go to the effort of factoring in curvature of the earth - especially given that 1.5 is very rough figure anyway for RI of glass. If anything, my comment was compliment to your network being close to minimum possible latency!
One of the ways that I have tormented WAN vendors over the years is with a plot of RTT vs. great circle distance between the end points of a circuit. Most RTTs usually sit at some constant offset above that Physics limit straight line. Circuits taking a less than ideal have their RTT far above the Physics limit line and we have used that information to get routes fixed. Using my great circle program that accounts for the non-spherical Earth for locations we have West of London and North of NYC, assuming a 1.5 index of refraction I get: One way distance: 5520.6 km Round Trip Delay: 55.2 ms So Heath's estimate is right on, although depending on where he got the distance maybe it does account for the shape of the Earth. Jon On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 6:17 AM, Heath Jones <hj1980@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2 October 2010 10:52, Rod Beck <Rod.Beck@hiberniaatlantic.com> wrote:
Is that a straight line calculation or did you take into account that a straight line is not the shortest path on a curved surface?
Well that is pretty obvious to most, but no - I didn't go to the effort of factoring in curvature of the earth - especially given that 1.5 is very rough figure anyway for RI of glass. If anything, my comment was compliment to your network being close to minimum possible latency!
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lga-lhr -- kris On Oct 2, 2010, at 7:31 AM, Jon Meek wrote:
One of the ways that I have tormented WAN vendors over the years is with a plot of RTT vs. great circle distance between the end points of a circuit. Most RTTs usually sit at some constant offset above that Physics limit straight line. Circuits taking a less than ideal have their RTT far above the Physics limit line and we have used that information to get routes fixed.
Using my great circle program that accounts for the non-spherical Earth for locations we have West of London and North of NYC, assuming a 1.5 index of refraction I get:
One way distance: 5520.6 km Round Trip Delay: 55.2 ms
So Heath's estimate is right on, although depending on where he got the distance maybe it does account for the shape of the Earth.
Jon
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 6:17 AM, Heath Jones <hj1980@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2 October 2010 10:52, Rod Beck <Rod.Beck@hiberniaatlantic.com> wrote:
Is that a straight line calculation or did you take into account that a straight line is not the shortest path on a curved surface?
Well that is pretty obvious to most, but no - I didn't go to the effort of factoring in curvature of the earth - especially given that 1.5 is very rough figure anyway for RI of glass. If anything, my comment was compliment to your network being close to minimum possible latency!
If your sales contact don't know what an alarm circuit is, go find AT&T's tariff filed with your state's PUC. It will contain the name of the service. This will take some digging... Verizon Maryland calls this an "Intraexchange local channel, regular voice grade" and they go for $15.53/month. There are a plethora of different types of "dry pairs" that you can order depending on the signal bandwidth of the circuit and allowed attenuation. On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Brandon Galbraith < brandon.galbraith@gmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone had any luck lately getting dry pairs from AT&T? I'm in the Chicago area attempting to get a dry pair between two buildings (100ft apart) for some equipment, but when speaking to several folks at AT&T the response I get is "You want AT&T service without the service? That's not logical!". Had no problems 3-4 years ago getting these sorts of "circuits", but it appears it's gone the way of the dodo now. Any emails off-list are appreciated.
-- Brandon Galbraith US Voice: 630.492.0464
If the buildings are a 100ft apart, can't you just go with a wireless connection? Speeds would probably be better and no monthly fee! On 09/30/2010 06:08 PM, Robert Johnson wrote:
If your sales contact don't know what an alarm circuit is, go find AT&T's tariff filed with your state's PUC. It will contain the name of the service. This will take some digging...
Verizon Maryland calls this an "Intraexchange local channel, regular voice grade" and they go for $15.53/month. There are a plethora of different types of "dry pairs" that you can order depending on the signal bandwidth of the circuit and allowed attenuation.
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Brandon Galbraith< brandon.galbraith@gmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone had any luck lately getting dry pairs from AT&T? I'm in the Chicago area attempting to get a dry pair between two buildings (100ft apart) for some equipment, but when speaking to several folks at AT&T the response I get is "You want AT&T service without the service? That's not logical!". Had no problems 3-4 years ago getting these sorts of "circuits", but it appears it's gone the way of the dodo now. Any emails off-list are appreciated.
-- Brandon Galbraith US Voice: 630.492.0464
On Sep 30, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
On 9/30/2010 15:12, Bret Clark wrote:
If the buildings are a 100ft apart, can't you just go with a wireless connection? Speeds would probably be better and no monthly fee!
Wireless is not the end all solution for everything.
Understood, but for $160 you can get equipment that acts as a L2 bridge with RJ45 and PoE at 50Mb/s duplex. (UBNT Nanobridge 5, they're $79 per and do 5Ghz 802.11n MCS-15 @ 40Mhz channels). Just trying to help :) You may now shoot the off-topic messenger. - Jared
On 9/30/2010 15:34, Jared Mauch wrote:
On Sep 30, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
On 9/30/2010 15:12, Bret Clark wrote:
If the buildings are a 100ft apart, can't you just go with a wireless connection? Speeds would probably be better and no monthly fee!
Wireless is not the end all solution for everything.
Understood, but for $160 you can get equipment that acts as a L2 bridge with RJ45 and PoE at 50Mb/s duplex. (UBNT Nanobridge 5, they're $79 per and do 5Ghz 802.11n MCS-15 @ 40Mhz channels).
Just trying to help :)
The biggest laugh I always got when I worked at the local university as a student were trouble tickets to the Faraday cage rooms because the campus wireless internet didn't work inside them. "But it's wireless!" "Yes, that's the problem. Please just use the damn cable." ~Seth
Try asking for one of the following: 1. Farmer Line 2. Alarm Circuit I think there are a few other ways to ask for a dry pair that might circumvent the limited know-how of the people you are talking to, but, I don't recall them off the top of my head. Owen On Sep 30, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Brandon Galbraith wrote:
Has anyone had any luck lately getting dry pairs from AT&T? I'm in the Chicago area attempting to get a dry pair between two buildings (100ft apart) for some equipment, but when speaking to several folks at AT&T the response I get is "You want AT&T service without the service? That's not logical!". Had no problems 3-4 years ago getting these sorts of "circuits", but it appears it's gone the way of the dodo now. Any emails off-list are appreciated.
-- Brandon Galbraith US Voice: 630.492.0464
Or a (utility) telemetry circuit. None of these will necessarily get you a dry copper loop, depending on the facilities serving your two locations. Also the circuit length will undoubtedly be longer than 100ft so keep that in mind for whatever you're planning to do with it. You might also try a local CLEC. They can get dry loops from AT&T in different qualities that match your intended use from a simple dry voice grade loop to an unloaded DSL capable loop. Whether the CLEC provide it to you in that form is another matter. Even if they do so, the loops may not be straight copper all the way through. On Oct 1, 2010, at 3:25, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
Try asking for one of the following:
1. Farmer Line 2. Alarm Circuit
I think there are a few other ways to ask for a dry pair that might circumvent the limited know-how of the people you are talking to, but, I don't recall them off the top of my head.
Owen
On Sep 30, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Brandon Galbraith wrote:
Has anyone had any luck lately getting dry pairs from AT&T? I'm in the Chicago area attempting to get a dry pair between two buildings (100ft apart) for some equipment, but when speaking to several folks at AT&T the response I get is "You want AT&T service without the service? That's not logical!". Had no problems 3-4 years ago getting these sorts of "circuits", but it appears it's gone the way of the dodo now. Any emails off-list are appreciated.
-- Brandon Galbraith US Voice: 630.492.0464
I'd set up something wireless between them. Just my $0.02. --Curtis On 9/30/2010 4:52 PM, Brandon Galbraith wrote:
Has anyone had any luck lately getting dry pairs from AT&T? I'm in the Chicago area attempting to get a dry pair between two buildings (100ft apart) for some equipment, but when speaking to several folks at AT&T the response I get is "You want AT&T service without the service? That's not logical!". Had no problems 3-4 years ago getting these sorts of "circuits", but it appears it's gone the way of the dodo now. Any emails off-list are appreciated.
We order these all of the time ( as a CLEC) for EoC connections or DSL on our equipment. The correct terminology is usually 2-wire or 4-wire copper loops. There will be specific NC/NCI codes depending on the iLEC region you are in and LEC you are working with. Within these loops, you will generally see at least the following "types" of circuits, normally these are really just different levels of qualifications the LEC is required to meet on the copper they provide (in terms of noise, attenuation, load coils, and # feet of bridge tap): HDSL (best) ADSL UCL (Unbundled copper loop - worst) Now the main issue is that these circuits are normally provisioned between a CO and an end-user location. I don't know if you'd be able to get them directly between two sites that are not ATT facilities without going back to the CO first (greatly increasing total loop length and probably decreasing max DSL speeds). The other thing to know is that in "busy" CO's, some of these line types (especially the higher quality loops) may be "blacklisted" meaning you either can't order them at all, or you can order them a different way at a much higher rate. The last issue I can think of is that you may not be able to get these at all from ATT's retail or business side of the house. If that is the case, find a local CLEC and see if they will help you out. -Scott -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Galbraith [mailto:brandon.galbraith@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 4:53 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: AT&T Dry Pairs? Has anyone had any luck lately getting dry pairs from AT&T? I'm in the Chicago area attempting to get a dry pair between two buildings (100ft apart) for some equipment, but when speaking to several folks at AT&T the response I get is "You want AT&T service without the service? That's not logical!". Had no problems 3-4 years ago getting these sorts of "circuits", but it appears it's gone the way of the dodo now. Any emails off-list are appreciated. -- Brandon Galbraith US Voice: 630.492.0464
participants (18)
-
Andrew Carey -
Brandon Galbraith -
Bret Clark -
Curtis Maurand -
Dorn Hetzel -
George Bonser -
Heath Jones -
Jared Mauch -
Jon Meek -
kris foster -
Owen DeLong -
Ricky Beam -
Robert Johnson -
Rod Beck -
Ryan Shea -
Scott Berkman -
Seth Mattinen -
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