Has anyone ever used a below grade vault for housing fiber cross connects? We have to move a fiber interconnect facility due to the current building being demolished. If you have I would be interested in talking to you. If there are more appropriate lists, I would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks, -Roy Hockett Network Architect, ITS Communication Systems University of Michigan Tel: (734) 763-7325 Fax: (734) 615-1727 email: royboy@umich.edu
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013, Roy hockett wrote:
Has anyone ever used a below grade vault for housing fiber cross connects?
We have to move a fiber interconnect facility due to the current building being demolished. If you have I would be interested in talking to you. If there are more appropriate lists, I would appreciate any suggestions.
When you say "below grade vault", do you mean something that's only accessible through a manhole? I haven't done this specifically, however if the vault does not have a controlled environment, you could be dealing with massive headaches related to dust/dirt contamination, moisture penetration, etc. I work in a large-campus .edu environment, so I'm some of the headaches you're probably trying to avoid. Also, be aware that access to the vault could be an issue. There are OSHA regs related to what sort of training and safety equipment someone who will be working in an underground vault must have. I'm assuming that the fiber will be cross-connected to a new location prior to the building being demolished. Not knowing your outside plant or circumstances, would it be feasible to fusion-splice a new tail onto the fiber that was going to the building that's being demolished, or (ideally) pulling a new piece of fiber to the new building, so you don't have to deal with potentially dodgy splices? jms
Usually it would spliced outside at the manhole where the fiber meet to go in the building. Depends on the way you want to connect them etc. Thomas L Graves Sent from my IPhone
On Nov 13, 2013, at 2:05 PM, "Justin M. Streiner" <streiner@cluebyfour.org> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013, Roy hockett wrote:
Has anyone ever used a below grade vault for housing fiber cross connects?
We have to move a fiber interconnect facility due to the current building being demolished. If you have I would be interested in talking to you. If there are more appropriate lists, I would appreciate any suggestions.
When you say "below grade vault", do you mean something that's only accessible through a manhole?
I haven't done this specifically, however if the vault does not have a controlled environment, you could be dealing with massive headaches related to dust/dirt contamination, moisture penetration, etc. I work in a large-campus .edu environment, so I'm some of the headaches you're probably trying to avoid. Also, be aware that access to the vault could be an issue. There are OSHA regs related to what sort of training and safety equipment someone who will be working in an underground vault must have.
I'm assuming that the fiber will be cross-connected to a new location prior to the building being demolished.
Not knowing your outside plant or circumstances, would it be feasible to fusion-splice a new tail onto the fiber that was going to the building that's being demolished, or (ideally) pulling a new piece of fiber to the new building, so you don't have to deal with potentially dodgy splices?
jms
You can stick a "splice" in a manhole. You don't want a "patch panel" or cross-connect in that sort of environment, keep that housed inside, somewhere. Jeff On 11/13/2013 7:53 PM, Thomas wrote:
Usually it would spliced outside at the manhole where the fiber meet to go in the building. Depends on the way you want to connect them etc.
Thomas L Graves Sent from my IPhone
On Nov 13, 2013, at 2:05 PM, "Justin M. Streiner" <streiner@cluebyfour.org> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013, Roy hockett wrote:
Has anyone ever used a below grade vault for housing fiber cross connects?
We have to move a fiber interconnect facility due to the current building being demolished. If you have I would be interested in talking to you. If there are more appropriate lists, I would appreciate any suggestions. When you say "below grade vault", do you mean something that's only accessible through a manhole?
I haven't done this specifically, however if the vault does not have a controlled environment, you could be dealing with massive headaches related to dust/dirt contamination, moisture penetration, etc. I work in a large-campus .edu environment, so I'm some of the headaches you're probably trying to avoid. Also, be aware that access to the vault could be an issue. There are OSHA regs related to what sort of training and safety equipment someone who will be working in an underground vault must have.
I'm assuming that the fiber will be cross-connected to a new location prior to the building being demolished.
Not knowing your outside plant or circumstances, would it be feasible to fusion-splice a new tail onto the fiber that was going to the building that's being demolished, or (ideally) pulling a new piece of fiber to the new building, so you don't have to deal with potentially dodgy splices?
jms
Thank you for comments. Let me clarify the situation. We have a building that has been fiber cross connect location and is being demolished. This location has about 20 fiber cable entering where we patch between fiber paths. If we relocated these cross connect field to another building and that build is demolished we have to do this all over again, so the desire was to have an independent facility for the fiber cross connect field, but I am guessing due to esthetics the below ground vault was selected, we just learned of this selection and thus my query to this group to find other that have dealt with similar situations and if so, experience base recommendations, and things to be aware of. Thanks, -Roy Hockett Network Architect, ITS Communications Systems and Data Centers University of Michigan Tel: (734) 763-7325 Fax: (734) 615-1727 email: royboy@umich.edu On Nov 13, 2013, at 8:32 PM, Jeff Kell <jeff-kell@utc.edu> wrote:
You can stick a "splice" in a manhole. You don't want a "patch panel" or cross-connect in that sort of environment, keep that housed inside, somewhere.
Jeff
On 11/13/2013 7:53 PM, Thomas wrote:
Usually it would spliced outside at the manhole where the fiber meet to go in the building. Depends on the way you want to connect them etc.
Thomas L Graves Sent from my IPhone
On Nov 13, 2013, at 2:05 PM, "Justin M. Streiner" <streiner@cluebyfour.org> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013, Roy hockett wrote:
Has anyone ever used a below grade vault for housing fiber cross connects?
We have to move a fiber interconnect facility due to the current building being demolished. If you have I would be interested in talking to you. If there are more appropriate lists, I would appreciate any suggestions. When you say "below grade vault", do you mean something that's only accessible through a manhole?
I haven't done this specifically, however if the vault does not have a controlled environment, you could be dealing with massive headaches related to dust/dirt contamination, moisture penetration, etc. I work in a large-campus .edu environment, so I'm some of the headaches you're probably trying to avoid. Also, be aware that access to the vault could be an issue. There are OSHA regs related to what sort of training and safety equipment someone who will be working in an underground vault must have.
I'm assuming that the fiber will be cross-connected to a new location prior to the building being demolished.
Not knowing your outside plant or circumstances, would it be feasible to fusion-splice a new tail onto the fiber that was going to the building that's being demolished, or (ideally) pulling a new piece of fiber to the new building, so you don't have to deal with potentially dodgy splices?
jms
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013, Roy Hockett wrote:
Thank you for comments. Let me clarify the situation. We have a building that has been fiber cross connect location and is being demolished. This location has about 20 fiber cable entering where we patch between fiber paths. If we relocated these cross connect field to another building and that build is demolished we have to do this all over again, so the desire was to have an independent facility for the fiber cross connect field, but I am guessing due to esthetics the below ground vault was selected, we just learned of this selection and thus my query to this group to find other that have dealt with similar situations and if so, experience base recommendations, and things to be aware of.
If the vault has a controlled environment and access, similar to what you would find inside of a comms room, that's one thing. If it's more like a typical manhole (damp, dirty, dark, possible temperature extremes, other utilities/hazards), then the only thing that should be in there is a water-tight splice case. Fiber patches need to be in a clean environment. Did this project provide any funds for relocation or replacement of the communications facilities that would be lost due to the demolition? We've gone through this many times on our campus. jms
Your only other real option would be to deploy a "road-side" cabinet which has environmental controls... https://www.google.com/search?q=roadside+cabinets&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=f8-EUqHNOdPqkQe32IHABw&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1620&bih=735 Thanks, Joe -----Original Message----- From: Justin M. Streiner [mailto:streiner@cluebyfour.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:05 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: OT: Below grade fiber interconnect points On Wed, 13 Nov 2013, Roy Hockett wrote:
Thank you for comments. Let me clarify the situation. We have a building that has been fiber cross connect location and is being demolished. This location has about 20 fiber cable entering where we patch between fiber paths. If we relocated these cross connect field to another building and that build is demolished we have to do this all over again, so the desire was to have an independent facility for the fiber cross connect field, but I am guessing due to esthetics the below ground vault was selected, we just learned of this selection and thus my query to this group to find other that have dealt with similar situations and if so, experience base recommendations, and things to be aware of.
If the vault has a controlled environment and access, similar to what you would find inside of a comms room, that's one thing. If it's more like a typical manhole (damp, dirty, dark, possible temperature extremes, other utilities/hazards), then the only thing that should be in there is a water-tight splice case. Fiber patches need to be in a clean environment. Did this project provide any funds for relocation or replacement of the communications facilities that would be lost due to the demolition? We've gone through this many times on our campus. jms -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
There are a couple of ways to do this. If you're going to keep everything below grade in a man hole or cable vault of some type, you definitely need to have it in a sealed splicing enclosure. That means instead of using a patch panel, everything has to be fusion spliced. You'll get less loss because it's a direct splice, but changing things later becomes a pain. The other option is to use an outdoor fiber patch cabinet / pedestal. There are multiple outdoor rated above ground fiber cross connect cabinets available that you could probably find an unobtrusive place to install. Or, there are several manufacturers (3M, etc.) that make fiber cross connects that fit in a plastic version of a standard telco pedestal which you could pretty much place anywhere. On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 9:04 PM, Justin M. Streiner <streiner@cluebyfour.org
wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013, Roy Hockett wrote:
Thank you for comments. Let me clarify the situation. We have a building
that has been fiber cross connect location and is being demolished. This location has about 20 fiber cable entering where we patch between fiber paths. If we relocated these cross connect field to another building and that build is demolished we have to do this all over again, so the desire was to have an independent facility for the fiber cross connect field, but I am guessing due to esthetics the below ground vault was selected, we just learned of this selection and thus my query to this group to find other that have dealt with similar situations and if so, experience base recommendations, and things to be aware of.
If the vault has a controlled environment and access, similar to what you would find inside of a comms room, that's one thing. If it's more like a typical manhole (damp, dirty, dark, possible temperature extremes, other utilities/hazards), then the only thing that should be in there is a water-tight splice case. Fiber patches need to be in a clean environment.
Did this project provide any funds for relocation or replacement of the communications facilities that would be lost due to the demolition? We've gone through this many times on our campus.
jms
Another option is an above ground cabinet. Many telecoms use them. Thomas L Graves Sent from my IPhone
On Nov 13, 2013, at 8:04 PM, "Justin M. Streiner" <streiner@cluebyfour.org> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013, Roy Hockett wrote:
Thank you for comments. Let me clarify the situation. We have a building that has been fiber cross connect location and is being demolished. This location has about 20 fiber cable entering where we patch between fiber paths. If we relocated these cross connect field to another building and that build is demolished we have to do this all over again, so the desire was to have an independent facility for the fiber cross connect field, but I am guessing due to esthetics the below ground vault was selected, we just learned of this selection and thus my query to this group to find other that have dealt with similar situations and if so, experience base recommendations, and things to be aware of.
If the vault has a controlled environment and access, similar to what you would find inside of a comms room, that's one thing. If it's more like a typical manhole (damp, dirty, dark, possible temperature extremes, other utilities/hazards), then the only thing that should be in there is a water-tight splice case. Fiber patches need to be in a clean environment.
Did this project provide any funds for relocation or replacement of the communications facilities that would be lost due to the demolition? We've gone through this many times on our campus.
jms
Here is a link to a Raycom Fosc that has pigtails and bulkheads in it that I'm guessing would suit your needs. We use them underground in vaults a various points where a pedestal doesn't make sense. You need to make sure there is proper drainage in the vault though.... Without knowing more about the physical facility, it's hard to know for sure what you need. http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGsQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raycom.cz%2Fdl2%3Fid_download%3D164&ei=KS-FUpm3M-PayAGMkIDQDw&usg=AFQjCNGrdt4iDKOmh6CNXG4YtwxZocBJTw&bvm=bv.56343320,d.aWc&cad=rja Sam Roche - Supervisor of Network Operations - Lakeland Networks sroche@lakelandnetworks.com| Office: 705-640-0086 | Cell: 705-706-2606| www.lakelandnetworks.com IT SOLUTIONS for BUSINESS Fiber Optics, Wireless, DSL Network Provider; I.T. Support; Telephony Hardware and Cabling; SIP Trunks, VoIP; Server Hosting; Disaster Recovery Systems "The information contained in this message is directed in confidence solely to the person(s) named above and may not be otherwise distributed, copied or disclosed. The message may contain information that is privileged, proprietary and/or confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately advising of the error and delete the message without making a copy." -----Original Message----- From: Thomas [mailto:gravestl@swbell.net] Sent: November-14-13 9:17 AM To: Justin M. Streiner Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: OT: Below grade fiber interconnect points Another option is an above ground cabinet. Many telecoms use them. Thomas L Graves Sent from my IPhone
On Nov 13, 2013, at 8:04 PM, "Justin M. Streiner" <streiner@cluebyfour.org> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013, Roy Hockett wrote:
Thank you for comments. Let me clarify the situation. We have a building that has been fiber cross connect location and is being demolished. This location has about 20 fiber cable entering where we patch between fiber paths. If we relocated these cross connect field to another building and that build is demolished we have to do this all over again, so the desire was to have an independent facility for the fiber cross connect field, but I am guessing due to esthetics the below ground vault was selected, we just learned of this selection and thus my query to this group to find other that have dealt with similar situations and if so, experience base recommendations, and things to be aware of.
If the vault has a controlled environment and access, similar to what you would find inside of a comms room, that's one thing. If it's more like a typical manhole (damp, dirty, dark, possible temperature extremes, other utilities/hazards), then the only thing that should be in there is a water-tight splice case. Fiber patches need to be in a clean environment.
Did this project provide any funds for relocation or replacement of the communications facilities that would be lost due to the demolition? We've gone through this many times on our campus.
jms
On 11/13/13 11:51 PM, Roy Hockett wrote:
I am guessing due to esthetics the below ground vault was selected, we just learned of this selection and thus my query to this group to find other that have dealt with similar situations and if so, experience base recommendations, and things to be aware of.
Thanks, -Roy Hockett
Network Architect, ITS Communications Systems and Data Centers University of Michigan Tel: (734) 763-7325 Fax: (734) 615-1727 email: royboy@umich.edu
I remember seeing a below grade vault here in Michigan once. It was purpose built (years ago for MCI IIRC), but I don't know by whom. Heavy steel plate door on top, looked like those on major water pipe vaults. Likely built to similar civil engineering standards. But this was fairly early in the history of laying fiber, so there are probably newer standards. Off the top of my head, it had a lot of things concerned with water and humidity -- dual redundant sump pumps, dual heaters mounted 6' off the floor, an environmental monitoring panel, an exterior antennae pole for out-of-band reporting from the monitoring panel. I didn't have the opportunity to open the fairly beefy looking power panel, so I don't know whether there was a dual feed -- but it wouldn't surprise me. As to cleanliness, it wasn't particularly clean, but not really dirty. (Much like any exterior shopping center access demark, assuming you've seen those.) I also saw a Bell South below grade fiber vault once, but wouldn't recommend it, as it was full of water at the time.... To be fair, I'm not sure they had a cross-connect panel in there.
Hi Justin and Roy: On 11/13/13 12:05, Justin M. Streiner wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013, Roy hockett wrote:
Has anyone ever used a below grade vault for housing fiber cross connects?
We have to move a fiber interconnect facility due to the current building being demolished. If you have I would be interested in talking to you. If there are more appropriate lists, I would appreciate any suggestions.
When you say "below grade vault", do you mean something that's only accessible through a manhole?
In the case of CEVs, it's actually a "doghouse," an access-controlled (cyber-lock or similar cylinder plus alarm system) entrance which also houses the HVAC machinery. See below.
I haven't done this specifically, however if the vault does not have a controlled environment, you could be dealing with massive headaches related to dust/dirt contamination, moisture penetration, etc.
UC Berkeley installed 3 CEVs (Controlled Environment Vaults) below ground on campus about 10-15 years ago. One of them houses one of the two main fiber penetrations to campus, including DWDM gear, patch-panels, border routers, even packetshapers (back when those were relevant in a large EDU environment), servers, WiFi portals, etc. This stuff has all been in place for at least 10 years and has worked really well, modulo the caveats below. Two of the vaults have 6-7 19" telco racks, and one (the one with the big fiber entrance) also has a 23" rack in addition to the others. Caveats: o It's hard to physically get equipment into the vault. You'll often need a hand-crane/winch for smaller items (servers, switches, small routers), and a powered crane (one of those small ones that goes in the back of a pickup truck) for larger items. We've managed to put things as big as a Juniper M120 in the CEV, and we have probably gotten bigger stuff down there. But it's not just as trivial as loading it onto a hand-cart and wheeling it in. o HVAC issues happen everywhere, but we've had to completely overhaul the HVAC on one of the CEVs about 2-3 years ago (right around the time I left UCB). They were throwing more heat at the HVAC than was specified, and there were a lot of custom parts for the doghouse enclosure that weren't available anymore. So you may find that you need to allocate more budget to maintenance for HVAC (as well as sump pumps, CO sniffers, etc.). o The larger of the three CEVs had an encounter with the Highway 24 Freeway overcrossing over Telegraph Avenue and had to be repaired before installation. (The CEVs are divided horizontally, so that there is a top piece and a bottom piece that get installed in the ground in sequence and then are sealed up. In this case the top piece--specifically the doghouse assembly--got crashed into the bridge.) It was repaired and has been fine, but you may have to deal with issues like that. o Do not wear a skirt, dress, or kilt when entering the CEV. The updraft of ventilation will cause issues as you climb down. (Sounds silly, but I have actually had to advise folks to wear long pants based on the experiences of a manager who was touring the CEV one day.)
I work in a large-campus .edu environment, so I'm some of the headaches you're probably trying to avoid. Also, be aware that access to the vault could be an issue. There are OSHA regs related to what sort of training and safety equipment someone who will be working in an underground vault must have.
Yes. We have all had to go through the required OSHA training for confined spaces and ladder safety. The CEV system must also have a CO sniffer, sump pump, etc. We had a very lightweight lock-out-tag-out system that basically involved calling the NOC when entering and exiting the vault and also logging that information in a logbook physically at the vault.
I'm assuming that the fiber will be cross-connected to a new location prior to the building being demolished.
Been there, done that as well. UCB had a big fiber re-splicing about 4 years ago, back when I still worked there. In this particular case, it went into a regular building, but the setup was similar to that of the CEVs (it was the redundant entrance to the campus for one of the CEVs).
Not knowing your outside plant or circumstances, would it be feasible to fusion-splice a new tail onto the fiber that was going to the building that's being demolished, or (ideally) pulling a new piece of fiber to the new building, so you don't have to deal with potentially dodgy splices?
So, if it's like what was done at UCB, the fiber was disconnected (starting at 5pm, since an entire building would be down for _each_ bundle of fiber that was done) from the panel in the old building and back-pulled to the nearest CV (not controlled environment). It was re-spliced in that CV and routed to the new building, reterminated and reconnected to a new switch to bring the building back up. (Some bundles didn't need to be spliced, since it was a shorter path to the new building.) This is all doable within a CEV environment as well, and it requires pretty much the same level of coordination and project management. michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Sinatra" <michael@rancid.berkeley.edu>
UC Berkeley installed 3 CEVs (Controlled Environment Vaults) below ground on campus about 10-15 years ago. One of them houses one of the two main fiber penetrations to campus, including DWDM gear, patch-panels, border routers, even packetshapers (back when those were relevant in a large EDU environment), servers, WiFi portals, etc. This stuff has all been in place for at least 10 years and has worked really well, modulo the caveats below. Two of the vaults have 6-7 19" telco racks, and one (the one with the big fiber entrance) also has a 23" rack in addition to the others.
Caveats:
[ 17 pages of caveats elided ] So, the elephant in the room at this stage of the thing is this: Why don't you just *put this stuff in a building*, and, y'know, never demolish it? Yes, you'll probably have to build it to CO grade standards, but that isn't exactly rocket surgery, and it seems to me that you peel 3 or 4 layers of crap off the top doing it that way. Unless you're in, say, the Philippines, I can't see the advantage of burying all that stuff underground on a campus-scale deployment. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274
On 11/15/13 12:29, Jay Ashworth wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Sinatra" <michael@rancid.berkeley.edu>
UC Berkeley installed 3 CEVs (Controlled Environment Vaults) below ground on campus about 10-15 years ago. One of them houses one of the two main fiber penetrations to campus, including DWDM gear, patch-panels, border routers, even packetshapers (back when those were relevant in a large EDU environment), servers, WiFi portals, etc. This stuff has all been in place for at least 10 years and has worked really well, modulo the caveats below. Two of the vaults have 6-7 19" telco racks, and one (the one with the big fiber entrance) also has a 23" rack in addition to the others.
Caveats:
[ 17 pages of caveats elided ]
I realize I am wordy, but four bullet points (one of which involves apparel) != "17 pages of caveats". Nice try. The rest of the email was inline replies to Justin's points.
So, the elephant in the room at this stage of the thing is this:
Why don't you just *put this stuff in a building*, and, y'know, never demolish it?
Have you ever been involved in University space wars? Especially in a new building? The 9-layer OSI model gets pretty top-heavy when you factor that in. If anything, the caveats helped to keep others from wanting to use the space. But I will say that the general difficulty of getting equipment in and out of the CEVs generally discouraged UCB from doing more CEVs beyond the 3 originals. That _one_ caveat weighed pretty heavily. michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Sinatra" <michael@rancid.berkeley.edu>
Caveats:
[ 17 pages of caveats elided ]
I realize I am wordy, but four bullet points (one of which involves apparel) != "17 pages of caveats". Nice try. The rest of the email was inline replies to Justin's points.
We're not supposed to use emoticons on NANOG; it's unprofessional or something. :-)
So, the elephant in the room at this stage of the thing is this:
Why don't you just *put this stuff in a building*, and, y'know, never demolish it?
Have you ever been involved in University space wars? Especially in a new building? The 9-layer OSI model gets pretty top-heavy when you factor that in. If anything, the caveats helped to keep others from wanting to use the space.
Nope. But this isn't "space". It's "equipment". I assume they're not moving their 1.5MW gensets around every year either?
But I will say that the general difficulty of getting equipment in and out of the CEVs generally discouraged UCB from doing more CEVs beyond the 3 originals. That _one_ caveat weighed pretty heavily.
Yeah; cranes are a bitch. :-) You seem to be taking this awfully personally, though, Mike; did you *set* the policies and procedures I'm scoffing at? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote: ...
Yeah; cranes are a bitch. :-)
No, it is arranging for a rigging crew and the safety plan reviews for the lift (at least in any major company/institution which wants to stay on the happy side of OSHA; and has consul that suggests that the risks of not following the process is likely a CEE). Gary
On 11/15/13 13:25, Jay Ashworth wrote:
You seem to be taking this awfully personally, though, Mike; did you *set* the policies and procedures I'm scoffing at?
I am NOT TAKING IT PERSONALLY DAMMIT!!! Okay, now being serious (note clever way of avoiding using emoticons while pointing out that I _wasn't_ being serious above), I wasn't involved in the decision process and didn't have much say in why things were done. If it looked like I was taking it personally, that was only because of the bald-faced, yet hidden accusation of my being wordy, which I categorically resemble. Okay, now I will really be serious. For the stuff that they did, and still do, the CEVs _did_ (and do) work. The user interface is a bit more challenging that a regular building. My understanding is that this got us out of a lot of political battles, but I was not privy to those conversations. I think, however, that it may have something to do with what Roy is going through at UM, especially as he noted that the decision appeared to have been made at higher levels. In this case, management did something that's not totally wrong, IMO. michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Sinatra" <michael@rancid.berkeley.edu>
On 11/15/13 13:25, Jay Ashworth wrote:
You seem to be taking this awfully personally, though, Mike; did you *set* the policies and procedures I'm scoffing at?
I am NOT TAKING IT PERSONALLY DAMMIT!!!
Well, jeez, Loueeze... :-)
Okay, now being serious (note clever way of avoiding using emoticons while pointing out that I _wasn't_ being serious above), I wasn't involved in the decision process and didn't have much say in why things were done. If it looked like I was taking it personally, that was only because of the bald-faced, yet hidden accusation of my being wordy, which I categorically resemble.
Which category?
Okay, now I will really be serious. For the stuff that they did, and still do, the CEVs _did_ (and do) work. The user interface is a bit more challenging that a regular building. My understanding is that this got us out of a lot of political battles, but I was not privy to those conversations. I think, however, that it may have something to do with what Roy is going through at UM, especially as he noted that the decision appeared to have been made at higher levels. In this case, management did something that's not totally wrong, IMO.
Yeah; I get what you're saying; layers 9 and 10 often overrule layer 8 (that's money, lawyers, and people, respectively :-). I just can't help but think that the CBA is *really* lopsided against CEVs in nearly every circumstance; the "wink wink nudge nudge" approach to keeping departments out of your damn rack room seems the largest weighted item on the list. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274
participants (12)
-
Gary Buhrmaster -
Jay Ashworth -
Jeff Kell -
Joe McLeod -
Justin M. Streiner -
Michael Sinatra -
Roy hockett -
Roy Hockett
-
Sam Roche -
Shawn L -
Thomas -
William Allen Simpson