Re: RBL quandry - opinions hereby solicited
At 01:19 PM 11/16/1998 -0800, Paul A Vixie wrote:
I would suggest that they would not be RBLed as
1] this is a list that can be easily (I assume) opted out of.
no. there is no way to opt out of it.
Not so. You can use another registry. .COM, .NET, and .ORG may be the most popular, but they are not the only ones. When you refuse to do business with NSI, they don't send you email. They don't get lists and send email to random people. If you don't agree to let NSI send you email, they won't do business with you. Everyone agreed to those terms. Can't come back and change them later, because you don't like it. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with most of the mail I've gotten from them. Some of it a bit technically insulting, but that doesn't make it totally unreasonable from an email ethics point of view. It certainly doesn't qualify as spam, since it is in fact solicited. You paid $100+ for the privilege. Technically, they aren't broadcasting either. They are sending email to their customers. Not potential future customers. Existing customers. They didn't buy this list from somewhere. They asked for, and required customers to give this information, and to give them permission to send email. You seem to be in a conflict with your own rules, since you have said that you don't RBL companies that are using their own internal lists. As I thought, you aren't operating from some kind of moral or ethical principal, you are just bullying others. I just don't like that, whether you happen to be right or not.
2] They are sending to folks that use the service.
yes. which is: everybody who has a domain in COM, NET, or ORG.
Ahh, it has finally come to a confrontation with someone who quite possibly speaks more authoritatively for everyone in those domains than you do. This will be interesting, to say the least. I wonder if RBLing NetSol is cause for them to put vix.com on hold. That would be a hoot. I suppose they actually could call you in breach of contract for refusing to receive email, refund your money, and cancel your domains. --Dean ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean@av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 06:59:08PM -0500, Dean Anderson wrote:
At 01:19 PM 11/16/1998 -0800, Paul A Vixie wrote:
I would suggest that they would not be RBLed as
1] this is a list that can be easily (I assume) opted out of.
no. there is no way to opt out of it.
Not so. You can use another registry. .COM, .NET, and .ORG may be the most popular, but they are not the only ones.
Absolutely true. HOWEVER, I think you'd probably agree that the *demand* is for COM/NET/ORG domains, for which there is unfortunately still only one source. You, as an ISP, generally won't choose a domain for a client's web site; the customer will.
When you refuse to do business with NSI, they don't send you email. They don't get lists and send email to random people.
As far as I know this is also true (thank goodness for small miracles ;)
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with most of the mail I've gotten from them. Some of it a bit technically insulting, but that doesn't make it totally unreasonable from an email ethics point of view. It certainly doesn't qualify as spam, since it is in fact solicited. You paid $100+ for the privilege.
See, that's the problem, there is a difference of opinion as to what constitutes spam. Some people consider solicitations for additional business to be spam even if there is an existing business relationship (as would be the case with NetSol). <tongue-in-cheek> I always am happy to come up with additional reasons to hate NetSol </tongue-in-cheek> but I'm not sure this is one of them. Still, it would be nice to be able to say "I only want to be contacted on technical matters." Microsoft now allows you to opt-out of phone calls, snailmail AND e-mail when you register (or re-register, if needed) at the Microsoft Developer Network website. I had to do it myself a few times after I deleted their cookie accidentally. That's the best solution to this situation. Here comes a shocking statement: I agree with Dean. NetSol should not be RBL'd. In a previous e-mail to this list I recommended that Paul apply the same standards for RBL candidacy to NetSol that he would apply to anyone else. And now, upon reading this message from Dean, I must agree that NetSol does not meet the necessary requirements. Now, they DO sell their customer list. Having registered spamfree.org, I later received a snail-mailing from New England Business Forms addressed to the Forum for Responsible & Ethical Email (the registrant of the domain) at my PO box (the address registered on the domain). I don't know whether or not they sell their customer list to junk e-mailers. -- Steve Sobol [sjsobol@nacs.net] Part-time Support Droid [support@nacs.net] NACS Spaminator [abuse@nacs.net] Spotted on a bumper sticker: "Possum. The other white meat."
Dean Anderson wrote:
their customers. Not potential future customers. Existing customers. They didn't buy this list from somewhere. They asked for, and required customers to give this information, and to give them permission to send email.
That's not asking for it. That's demanding it. No e-mail ... no domain. Until NSI does not have an actual monopoly on TLDs, then it is a form of legalized extortion. You can prove to me otherwise by registering a domain in a gTLD either w/o giving any addresses. -- -- *-----------------------------* Phil Howard KA9WGN * -- -- | Inturnet, Inc. | Director of Internet Services | -- -- | Business Internet Solutions | eng at intur.net | -- -- *-----------------------------* philh at intur.net * --
On Tue, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:20:38AM -0600, Phil Howard wrote:
Dean Anderson wrote:
their customers. Not potential future customers. Existing customers. They didn't buy this list from somewhere. They asked for, and required customers to give this information, and to give them permission to send email.
That's not asking for it. That's demanding it. No e-mail ... no domain. Until NSI does not have an actual monopoly on TLDs, then it is a form of legalized extortion. You can prove to me otherwise by registering a domain in a gTLD either w/o giving any addresses.
I have found nobody@{domain} very useful Most people have a line in /etc/aliases that reads: nobody: /dev/null - jared
Dean stop beeing a boob - it's spam - it's not hey glad your a customer hope all is well it's hey use us to register new domains - it's being generated to compete against other avenues of registration - lets call it what it is - if you like it great - give it a hug and kiss and give it a rest - the majority I would assume aren't real thrilled about it - and the whole speil about fake email addresses cuz folk don't want to give out theirs - is bullshit - the correct answer is "then you don't get a domain" drive through please. On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Dean Anderson wrote:
Not so. You can use another registry. .COM, .NET, and .ORG may be the most popular, but they are not the only ones. When you refuse to do business with NSI, they don't send you email. They don't get lists and send email to random people. If you don't agree to let NSI send you email, they won't do business with you. Everyone agreed to those terms. Can't come back and change them later, because you don't like it.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with most of the mail I've gotten from them. Some of it a bit technically insulting, but that doesn't make it totally unreasonable from an email ethics point of view. It certainly doesn't qualify as spam, since it is in fact solicited. You paid $100+ for the privilege.
Technically, they aren't broadcasting either. They are sending email to their customers. Not potential future customers. Existing customers. They didn't buy this list from somewhere. They asked for, and required customers to give this information, and to give them permission to send email.
You seem to be in a conflict with your own rules, since you have said that you don't RBL companies that are using their own internal lists. As I thought, you aren't operating from some kind of moral or ethical principal, you are just bullying others. I just don't like that, whether you happen to be right or not.
2] They are sending to folks that use the service.
yes. which is: everybody who has a domain in COM, NET, or ORG.
Ahh, it has finally come to a confrontation with someone who quite possibly speaks more authoritatively for everyone in those domains than you do. This will be interesting, to say the least.
I wonder if RBLing NetSol is cause for them to put vix.com on hold. That would be a hoot. I suppose they actually could call you in breach of contract for refusing to receive email, refund your money, and cancel your domains.
--Dean
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean@av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-- I am nothing if not net-Q! - ras@poppa.clubrich.tiac.net
participants (5)
-
Dean Anderson -
Jared Mauch -
Phil Howard -
Rich Sena -
Steven J. Sobol