On 4/26/2021 10:53 AM, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:

...

On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:23 PM, scott <surfer@mauigateway.com> wrote:

Telenor and Ooredoo, it's time to do the right thing. Well, for strongly held religious beliefs, some may be convicted enough to be a martyr.

For internet connectivity? Likely not.

------------------------------------------------------------------------ I could not parse that.  (autocorrect issue?)  There is nothing about religion in the post.  The section of my post you highlighted above was to name-and-shame companies facilitating violent repression. What started it was how a 'bad day' for network operators can mean very different things.  Just some food for thought as Monday progresses...:) scott

On 4/26/2021 11:27 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:

Scott, are you saying that employees of Telenor and Ooredoo are “facilitating violent repression” by following the orders of soldiers holding guns to their heads?

--------------------------------------------------------------------- No.  Not at all.  Of course not.  That would be ridiculous.  I meant to say,"Myanmar’s two foreign-owned telecom operators, Telenor and Ooredoo..." should stop  facilitating the repression by complying "...with numerous demands from the military, including instructions to cut off the internet each night for the past week, and block specific websites, such as Facebook, Twitter and Instagram."  And, yeah, that means financial repercussions for the companies.

My understanding of the rules of nano guess that there is to be no “naming and shaming“. please retract your post.

----------------------------------------------------------- What?  You know folks do that all the time.  Did I miss the change in rules?   If it makes you or others feel better...I retract the post. I was having a bad day (Monday) and saw this.  It made me feel better about the crap I am going through today and thought it might be the same for other ops.  I also found it interesting that they were manipulating DNS servers with false IP addresses.  I wonder if the people can use a different DNS server than the two ISPs? scott

On 4/26/2021 5:30 PM, George Metz wrote:

First you say "not at all" and then you say "stop complying". If your employees stop complying with the orders coming from the angry men with guns held to said employees' heads, someone's going to get shot - and it's going to be the telecom employees. That's significantly more than a financial hardship and I cannot grasp how you think it could possibly be otherwise.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last post on this for me... Dang this went off the rails fast!  The main point was 'when you're thinking you're having a bad day think about what these network operators are going through', but you and Mel seemed to have missed that part. Additionally, I did not mean the -employees- should say no to the gunmen.  That's ridiculous to think I meant they should die for internet connectivity to remain on!  I meant the -companies- should stop  facilitating the repression by complying "...with numerous demands from the military, including instructions to cut off the internet each night for the past week, and block specific websites, such as Facebook, Twitter and Instagram."  This means the companies  should stop selling to the military there.  But that was an aside to the above. I can pass packets pretty well, but the evidence seems to show I am a pretty crappy communicator. scott

It should be noted that Telenor has been one of the nationwide license holders for 3GPP cellular bands in Pakistan for a long time, and has encountered the same issues with regional network shutdowns, and government orders to block certain netblocks or services. Not to the same extent as what's going on right now in Myanmar, but absolutely it meets the definition of what a (western European, North American) person would consider to be unconscionable and unwarranted government Internet censorship and interference with telecoms. They've shown no signs of pulling out of Pakistan or making operational changes as a result of this, over the past ten years. My personal opinion is that Telenor (PK) has weighed the risks, and judged that they possess neither the political capital, influence or leverage to ignore the government's occasional Internet shutdown orders. "Westerners" might be surprised to learn the extent that some of the major international/developing-nation specialist 3GPP carriers seem to be quite fine with operating in non-democratic regimes and bending their telecom's operational policies to suit local laws. In particular I'm thinking of the above Telenor example, but also MTN in many nations in Africa, Orange, and Airtel, in their operations in many different nations. Then on the other hand you have telecom entities which originate from highly censored political systems, one of the other 3GPP band operators in Pakistan (Zong) is owned by a Chinese domestic telecom company. On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 11:51 PM Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> wrote:

scott <surfer@mauigateway.com> writes:

...

Telenor and Ooredoo, it's time to do the right thing.

Wrt Telenor, please see the info posted at

https://www.telenor.com/sustainability/responsible-business/human-rights/mit...

Bjørn

None of them are a good option. In the specific case of Pakistan, the periodic shutdowns and blockages have been 'moderate' enough, if that's an appropriate word to use, that *most* of the time, Telenor's customers have ordinary Internet service. Over the long run it is probably a benefit that its customers have their LTE data services. Within that specific example I should also note that there has been very little effort put on a nation-wide scale to implement technology which can do DPI and drop/blackholing of VPN traffic. Even though the Internet traffic for the country runs through a few choke points, there does not appear to be government-operated technical capability or the budget to implement something on the scale of the great firewall. There's plenty of non technical teenagers in Pakistan with VPN clients on their phone or laptop who seem perfectly capable of using a VPN to watch Youtube or access Twitter and other social media, during the periods of time that the government orders things to be blocked. Along with all feasible attempts at lobbying, I would propose a 4th alternate to the scenarios outlined, which is to provide funding and financial support (from a telecom's headquarters in Europe or the USA) for civil society institutions and non-profits related to bypassing Internet censorship, and lobbying against it. Such as the EFF, funding for the tor project, supporting the work of various GPL/BSD licensed VPN technologies (openvpn, wireguard, etc) and their continuing development, etc. On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 11:03 AM Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

(I'm sure i'll regret this, but...)

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 1:48 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:

...

It should be noted that Telenor has been one of the nationwide license holders for 3GPP cellular bands in Pakistan for a long time, and has encountered the same issues with regional network shutdowns, and government orders to block certain netblocks or services.

Not to the same extent as what's going on right now in Myanmar, but absolutely it meets the definition of what a (western European, North American) person would consider to be unconscionable and unwarranted government Internet censorship and interference with telecoms.

...

So, what would be the correct set of actions here (for a company)?

it sounds like some version of the proposal is: "Pull up stakes, stop offering services in places that may/do impose 'draconian' methods of 'censorship'" (note intentionally quoted draconian/censorship - I don't mean/want to put a value on those words)

or perhaps: "Lobby the gov't(s) in these situations to NOT do the things they keep doing"

or finally: "refuse to comply with requests/orders from govt(s) to do these things"

I think the last is 'impractical', I expect the 1st is also a tough pill to swallow for a large multinational telcom... the middle may already be being done, but is unlikely to help.

So, aside from: <waggy finger>you ought not do that!</waggy finger> from the sidelines... what should a responsible Corpo do?

Censorship does not need to be complete to be highly effective. Almost all regulation, drugs/speeding/etc, is designed to increase the cost to the point were “most” individuals are discouraged. While VPNs can be used to bypass China’s Great Firewall the added friction is enough to keep most happily engaged with easer distractions. https://fsi.stanford.edu/news/china%E2%80%99s-great-firewall-built-friction-...

On Apr 29, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Sabri Berisha <sabri@cluecentral.net> wrote:

----- On Apr 28, 2021, at 11:32 AM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, There's plenty of non technical teenagers in Pakistan with VPN clients on their phone or laptop who seem perfectly capable of using a VPN to watch Youtube or access Twitter and other social media, during the periods of time that the government orders things to be blocked. Even my third-grader was able to figure out that she needed a VPN when I blocked Roblox's IP space (128.116.0.0/17) on my home router.

Other than, as reports said, soldiers snipping cables in datacenters, regimes will have a difficult time completely blocking whatever they don't like. Even China can't do it.

Thanks,

Sabri