Re: Linux: concerns over systemd [OT]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Capi" <capi@lugosys.com>
On 10/21/2014 11:29 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
The thing that I don't understand about systemd is how it managed to get *EVERY SINGLE DISTRIBUTION'S RELEASE MANAGER* on board in less than a year, given how thoroughly it violates the Unix philosophy, and how poorly documented it is
Not *every single* distribution...
I had meant to put an asterisk on that.
I'm glad to be using Gentoo Linux at home for the last 10 years... They've adopted OpenRC, which is much less invasive, works with an existing init (possibly sysv) and uses the friendly shell scripts we're all used to.
Ok, but how does it handle providing initscripts? I gather any upstreams which used to provide them aren't anymore... Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On 21/10/14 23:55, Jay Ashworth wrote:
Ok, but how does it handle providing initscripts? I gather any upstreams which used to provide them aren't anymore...
It's Gentoo: "You should write your own" is the most likely answer. -- Tom
On 10/21/2014 11:59 PM, Tom Hill wrote:
On 21/10/14 23:55, Jay Ashworth wrote:
Ok, but how does it handle providing initscripts? I gather any upstreams which used to provide them aren't anymore... It's Gentoo: "You should write your own" is the most likely answer.
Actually, not at all; although I realize that's a very common misconception. Gentoo Linux is, unfortunately, often associated with the whole "gcc -O9000 -msuperfast -fwtf" wow-look-at-me crowd. It's true that some people who use Gentoo go on and rave about how many nanoseconds they were able to shave off of their boot time, or how many obscure undocumented GCC options they managed to squeeze in without a compile error. I suppose the flexible nature of Gentoo is appealing to those who like to "look cool" and show off how they can watch the compiler do its thing. However, that's not at all what the distribution is about. Gentoo is about flexibility and choice. It's got a steepish learning curve, yes, but the documentation is very good; sadly, much of it was lost a few years ago, due to a bad mishap on the community Gentoo Wiki server, apparently without any backups. Back in the day, if I wanted to learn about Samba, I'd Google "howto linux samba" and Gentoo's Wiki would usually be among the first 3 hits. Their devs take stability very seriously; it's a rolling distro, but there is still a reasonable stabilization period for each package as new versions come out, during which any open bugs may hold up the package until they're fixed. It's all about choice. In my view, Gentoo is no better or worse than Debian, Red Hat, or Ubuntu. Different species, they all make for a better ecosystem.
Israel G. Lugo wrote:
On 10/21/2014 11:59 PM, Tom Hill wrote:
On 21/10/14 23:55, Jay Ashworth wrote:
Ok, but how does it handle providing initscripts? I gather any upstreams which used to provide them aren't anymore... It's Gentoo: "You should write your own" is the most likely answer. Actually, not at all; although I realize that's a very common misconception.
Gentoo Linux is, unfortunately, often associated with the whole "gcc -O9000 -msuperfast -fwtf" wow-look-at-me crowd.
It's true that some people who use Gentoo go on and rave about how many nanoseconds they were able to shave off of their boot time, or how many obscure undocumented GCC options they managed to squeeze in without a compile error. I suppose the flexible nature of Gentoo is appealing to those who like to "look cool" and show off how they can watch the compiler do its thing. However, that's not at all what the distribution is about.
Gentoo is about flexibility and choice. It's got a steepish learning curve, yes, but the documentation is very good; sadly, much of it was lost a few years ago, due to a bad mishap on the community Gentoo Wiki server, apparently without any backups. Back in the day, if I wanted to learn about Samba, I'd Google "howto linux samba" and Gentoo's Wiki would usually be among the first 3 hits. Their devs take stability very seriously; it's a rolling distro, but there is still a reasonable stabilization period for each package as new versions come out, during which any open bugs may hold up the package until they're fixed.
It's all about choice. In my view, Gentoo is no better or worse than Debian, Red Hat, or Ubuntu. Different species, they all make for a better ecosystem.
Given the state of things, though, I'm more-and-more considering Linux from Scratch. I find that I install enough from upstream source that packaging systems (and out-of-date packages) are less and less useful. Probably easier to set up Chef or Puppet and Jenkins to just keep the overall system current - and the heck with all this distro nonsense. Cheers, Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
On 22/10/14 00:57, Israel G. Lugo wrote:
Gentoo is about flexibility and choice. It's got a steepish learning curve, yes, but the documentation is very good; sadly, much of it was lost a few years ago, due to a bad mishap on the community Gentoo Wiki server, apparently without any backups. Back in the day, if I wanted to learn about Samba, I'd Google "howto linux samba" and Gentoo's Wiki would usually be among the first 3 hits. Their devs take stability very seriously; it's a rolling distro, but there is still a reasonable stabilization period for each package as new versions come out, during which any open bugs may hold up the package until they're fixed.
I certainly remember this, and miss it. The Gentoo documentation, and indeed the experience of compiling everything, was excellent. I still miss some of the tools that Gentoo had in Debian/CentOS (and the stage3 live CD is still my goto 'system rescue tool' :)) But.. I don't use it any more for anything serious. It's too much upkeep, and when the the included/maintained rc scripts for <some package> do inevitably fail to catch a corner case -- far more likely if you're using an overlay -- then you're left with little choice but to start modifying/writing your own.
It's all about choice. In my view, Gentoo is no better or worse than Debian, Red Hat, or Ubuntu. Different species, they all make for a better ecosystem.
I was mildly unfair in the way my response was worded, but I do hold that the Gentoo way of doing things is much simpler than that of other distributions. This was, in my experience, a double-edged sword. YMMV, etc. -- Tom
On 10/21/2014 11:55 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Capi" <capi@lugosys.com>
Whoops, used the wrong alias to reply.
Not *every single* distribution... I had meant to put an asterisk on that.
My remark was meant to be tongue-in-cheek :)
Ok, but how does it handle providing initscripts? I gather any upstreams which used to provide them aren't anymore...
The Gentoo devs take care of that. I presume they reuse what they can from upstream... They do a lot of hard work (sometimes more work than they have the manpower for, unfortunately). I remember, for example, back in KDE 3.5 days they were already dividing the upstream KDE mega packages (kde-games, kde-office) into individual packages, so you could choose specific programs instead of 300 MB bundles.
participants (5)
-
Eray Aslan -
Israel G. Lugo -
Jay Ashworth -
Miles Fidelman -
Tom Hill