As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed. The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider. Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices. I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday. The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel. The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room. I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house. According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
On 12/3/24 18:53, Sean Donelan wrote:
As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed.
The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider.
Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices.
I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel.
The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room.
I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house.
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
This sounds terribly broken. I doubt it will be long until sense prevails. Mark.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 20:15:46 +0200 Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
I doubt it will be long until sense prevails.
It's always too late. Installing facilities after the fact will cost 50 times more than if they had been done during neighborhood construction. Nobody will want to pay for that. It will not pencil out for a competing provider to foot the bill... Especially when they can expect a low take rate competing with a cheap alternative that is "good enough" for most folks. --TimH
On 12/3/24 20:27, Tim Howe wrote:
It's always too late.
Installing facilities after the fact will cost 50 times more than if they had been done during neighborhood construction. Nobody will want to pay for that. It will not pencil out for a competing provider to foot the bill... Especially when they can expect a low take rate competing with a cheap alternative that is "good enough" for most folks.
One or two home owners are about to lose their **** Mark.
On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 8:53 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
When I bought a new house a couple years ago, I told the realtor: I will only consider homes where gigabit wired broadband is available from at least two service providers. When I made an offer, I wrote it into the contingencies: I would pay for the installation immediately upon the offer's acceptance but would not close until the installation was complete and verified. Personally, I would worry about the resale value of a home which had neither wired communication services available nor conduit in which such could trivially be added. But I guess to each his own. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
It's easy and relatively cost-effective to make a new home pretty future-proof for connectivity by running conduit (of sufficient size, without tight bends) from the telecom area to the outlet box(es) in each room. For today run a coax and one or two cat6A; then whatever system appears in the future can quickly replace those in the conduit. Considering the importance of telecommunication/entertainment it's a surprise that very few new homes seem to take that option, but I guess it's not "trendy" enough. For the below example, it seems like an extreme example of cost-cutting, along with believing that "wireless is magic". When the real-world concerns about coverage and capacity appears, and the residents have 5 smart TVs competing to stream video on Wi-Fi along with game consoles downloading 100GB games (all of which should have been wired-in), is when they realize the difficulties of not planning the network and layout. By that time the builder will be long gone with the money... -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+colin-lists=highspeedcrow.ca@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Sean Donelan Sent: December 3, 2024 10:53 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: New home builders without wires As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed. The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider. Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices. I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday. The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel. The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room. I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house. According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
Beyond that, my home (c. 1996) has RJ-45 stapled to the studs every X feet, jacks in every room, and super-fat coax similarly fastened to studs in 3 rooms. Of course, none of this is in use. How many times have I wished they used conduit. On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 10:43 AM Colin Stanners (lists) < Colin-lists@highspeedcrow.ca> wrote:
It's easy and relatively cost-effective to make a new home pretty future-proof for connectivity by running conduit (of sufficient size, without tight bends) from the telecom area to the outlet box(es) in each room. For today run a coax and one or two cat6A; then whatever system appears in the future can quickly replace those in the conduit. Considering the importance of telecommunication/entertainment it's a surprise that very few new homes seem to take that option, but I guess it's not "trendy" enough.
For the below example, it seems like an extreme example of cost-cutting, along with believing that "wireless is magic". When the real-world concerns about coverage and capacity appears, and the residents have 5 smart TVs competing to stream video on Wi-Fi along with game consoles downloading 100GB games (all of which should have been wired-in), is when they realize the difficulties of not planning the network and layout.
By that time the builder will be long gone with the money...
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+colin-lists=highspeedcrow.ca@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Sean Donelan Sent: December 3, 2024 10:53 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: New home builders without wires
As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed.
The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider.
Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices.
I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel.
The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room.
I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house.
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
One smart US guy wrote in the alias (around 2007) that wireless is about 7x more expensive per bit than wired, and there are no reasons to believe that it will ever change. The economy would prevail sooner or later. Ed/ -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Sean Donelan Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2024 19:53 To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: New home builders without wires As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed. The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider. Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices. I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday. The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel. The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room. I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house. According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
When we built our new house 3 years ago, I had the electrician pull Cat7 and coax to most of the rooms in the house, since it would be way easier to do it before the drywall went up. They initially resisted because they had never worked with Cat7 before. I struck a deal with them where I bought the Cat7, they pulled it, and I terminated and tested it, and they were OK with that. Everything lands in the basement at our telco demarc sits, and everything has been working perfectly since then. The rack where everything lands is also tied to the house ground. I might consider 5G as a backup to our terrestrial fiber option, but haven't gone there yet. The local electric utility tests our UPSs for free roughly once a month ;) Thank you jms On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:53 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed.
The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider.
Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices.
I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel.
The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room.
I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house.
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
Excuse my ignorance, but why, in this day and age, coax? Joly On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 7:14 AM Justin Streiner <streinerj@gmail.com> wrote:
When we built our new house 3 years ago, I had the electrician pull Cat7 and coax to most of the rooms in the house, since it would be way easier to do it before the drywall went up. They initially resisted because they had never worked with Cat7 before. I struck a deal with them where I bought the Cat7, they pulled it, and I terminated and tested it, and they were OK with that. Everything lands in the basement at our telco demarc sits, and everything has been working perfectly since then. The rack where everything lands is also tied to the house ground. I might consider 5G as a backup to our terrestrial fiber option, but haven't gone there yet.
The local electric utility tests our UPSs for free roughly once a month ;)
Thank you jms
On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:53 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed.
The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider.
Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices.
I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel.
The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room.
I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house.
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
Its so cheap, its an opportunity cost thing. On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 3:02 PM Nathan Angelacos <nangel@tetrasec.net> wrote:
On Wed, 2024-12-04 at 09:12 -0500, Joly MacFie wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why, in this day and age, coax?
Joly
I can't speak for the original poster. But SDI over coax comes to mind.
How else would you distribute cable and sat tv? I would never buy a home or build a home if there weren't hard wired services to the home. The last thing I want to do is run all media streaming and internet surfing through a wireless 5g connection. On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 8:13 AM Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com> wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why, in this day and age, coax?
Joly
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 7:14 AM Justin Streiner <streinerj@gmail.com> wrote:
When we built our new house 3 years ago, I had the electrician pull Cat7 and coax to most of the rooms in the house, since it would be way easier to do it before the drywall went up. They initially resisted because they had never worked with Cat7 before. I struck a deal with them where I bought the Cat7, they pulled it, and I terminated and tested it, and they were OK with that. Everything lands in the basement at our telco demarc sits, and everything has been working perfectly since then. The rack where everything lands is also tied to the house ground. I might consider 5G as a backup to our terrestrial fiber option, but haven't gone there yet.
The local electric utility tests our UPSs for free roughly once a month ;)
Thank you jms
On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:53 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed.
The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider.
Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices.
I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel.
The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room.
I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house.
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
You could use modern media distribution systems over IP or HDBase-T. But yeah, I would still run coax to each TV location -- even if you don't intend on using it. You _may_ find a use for it at some point, and the next person who lives in the home may want it. On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 1:17 PM Tom Deligiannis <tom.deligiannis@gmail.com> wrote:
How else would you distribute cable and sat tv? I would never buy a home or build a home if there weren't hard wired services to the home. The last thing I want to do is run all media streaming and internet surfing through a wireless 5g connection.
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 8:13 AM Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com> wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why, in this day and age, coax?
Joly
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 7:14 AM Justin Streiner <streinerj@gmail.com> wrote:
When we built our new house 3 years ago, I had the electrician pull Cat7 and coax to most of the rooms in the house, since it would be way easier to do it before the drywall went up. They initially resisted because they had never worked with Cat7 before. I struck a deal with them where I bought the Cat7, they pulled it, and I terminated and tested it, and they were OK with that. Everything lands in the basement at our telco demarc sits, and everything has been working perfectly since then. The rack where everything lands is also tied to the house ground. I might consider 5G as a backup to our terrestrial fiber option, but haven't gone there yet.
The local electric utility tests our UPSs for free roughly once a month ;)
Thank you jms
On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:53 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed.
The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider.
Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices.
I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel.
The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room.
I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house.
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
On 12/4/24 10:54, Josh Baird wrote:
You could use modern media distribution systems over IP or HDBase-T.
But yeah, I would still run coax to each TV location -- even if you don't intend on using it. You _may_ find a use for it at some point, and the next person who lives in the home may want it.
Broadcast television is still very much a thing. Monthly recurring cost for an antenna is $0. Coax is the most common transmission line for this purpose. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
Even with broadcast, the need for coax (vs network) is going away. People that use broadcast still want "cable type" services, mainly dvr and channel guides. With so many options out there, TiVo, HDHomeRun, MythTV, many others, all of them only need coax to the unit, then distribute via IP from there. Still only need ethernet (or gasp, wifi) to most of the tv's.
But yeah, I would still run coax to each TV location -- even if you
Broadcast television is still very much a thing. Monthly recurring cost for an antenna is $0. Coax is the most common transmission line for this purpose.
Coaxial cable runs from the street to my house at my most recent purchase. All the “cable boxes” in the house are wireless. They are essentially whitelisted Android TV boxes. — Joel Esler Vice President, Security ThreatSTOP
On Dec 4, 2024, at 16:12, Jerry Cloe <jerry@jtcloe.net> wrote:
Even with broadcast, the need for coax (vs network) is going away. People that use broadcast still want "cable type" services, mainly dvr and channel guides. With so many options out there, TiVo, HDHomeRun, MythTV, many others, all of them only need coax to the unit, then distribute via IP from there. Still only need ethernet (or gasp, wifi) to most of the tv's.
But yeah, I would still run coax to each TV location -- even if you
Broadcast television is still very much a thing. Monthly recurring cost for an antenna is $0. Coax is the most common transmission line for this purpose.
On 12/4/24 13:49, joel@joelesler.net wrote:
On Dec 4, 2024, at 16:12, Jerry Cloe <jerry@jtcloe.net> wrote:
Even with broadcast, the need for coax (vs network) is going away. People that use broadcast still want "cable type" services, mainly dvr and channel guides. With so many options out there, TiVo, HDHomeRun, MythTV, many others, all of them only need coax to the unit, then distribute via IP from there. Still only need ethernet (or gasp, wifi) to most of the tv's.
I was referring to actual over-the-air broadcast television. Coaxial cable has been the de-facto transmission method for decades. Before that it was typically balanced 300-ohm twin-lead. TiVo DVRs, USB SDR dongles, and, believe it or not, even television sets have coaxial inputs for this purpose. Coaxial cable transmission line is the most logical medium for getting the RF from the antenna to the receiver regardless of the nature of the receiver. In case of TiVo, and other devices without a display, once the signal is demodulated it's typically sent to the display via HDMI. So, yes, run RG-6 to those locations where you anticipate putting a TV set. Run a stub-out in the attic as well. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
On 12/4/24 20:15, Tom Deligiannis wrote:
How else would you distribute cable and sat tv? I would never buy a home or build a home if there weren't hard wired services to the home. The last thing I want to do is run all media streaming and internet surfing through a wireless 5g connection.
At worst, have conduits in the property. Mark.
How else would you distribute cable and sat tv? NDI or similar
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 1:15 PM Tom Deligiannis <tom.deligiannis@gmail.com> wrote:
How else would you distribute cable and sat tv? I would never buy a home or build a home if there weren't hard wired services to the home. The last thing I want to do is run all media streaming and internet surfing through a wireless 5g connection.
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 8:13 AM Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com> wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why, in this day and age, coax?
Joly
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 7:14 AM Justin Streiner <streinerj@gmail.com> wrote:
When we built our new house 3 years ago, I had the electrician pull Cat7 and coax to most of the rooms in the house, since it would be way easier to do it before the drywall went up. They initially resisted because they had never worked with Cat7 before. I struck a deal with them where I bought the Cat7, they pulled it, and I terminated and tested it, and they were OK with that. Everything lands in the basement at our telco demarc sits, and everything has been working perfectly since then. The rack where everything lands is also tied to the house ground. I might consider 5G as a backup to our terrestrial fiber option, but haven't gone there yet.
The local electric utility tests our UPSs for free roughly once a month ;)
Thank you jms
On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:53 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed.
The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider.
Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices.
I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel.
The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room.
I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house.
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
NDI or similar? I don't follow. Cable TV, Cable Internet and sat TV aren't distributed (to homes) using NDI, they use coax. On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 1:37 AM Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com> wrote:
How else would you distribute cable and sat tv? NDI or similar
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 1:15 PM Tom Deligiannis <tom.deligiannis@gmail.com> wrote:
How else would you distribute cable and sat tv? I would never buy a home or build a home if there weren't hard wired services to the home. The last thing I want to do is run all media streaming and internet surfing through a wireless 5g connection.
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 8:13 AM Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com> wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why, in this day and age, coax?
Joly
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 7:14 AM Justin Streiner <streinerj@gmail.com> wrote:
When we built our new house 3 years ago, I had the electrician pull Cat7 and coax to most of the rooms in the house, since it would be way easier to do it before the drywall went up. They initially resisted because they had never worked with Cat7 before. I struck a deal with them where I bought the Cat7, they pulled it, and I terminated and tested it, and they were OK with that. Everything lands in the basement at our telco demarc sits, and everything has been working perfectly since then. The rack where everything lands is also tied to the house ground. I might consider 5G as a backup to our terrestrial fiber option, but haven't gone there yet.
The local electric utility tests our UPSs for free roughly once a month ;)
Thank you jms
On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:53 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed.
The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider.
Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices.
I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel.
The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room.
I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house.
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
If I ever build the next house, I’ll ensure that Ethernet is installed just as extensively as electric wiring.
On Dec 5, 2024, at 10:23, Tom Deligiannis <tom.deligiannis@gmail.com> wrote:
NDI or similar? I don't follow. Cable TV, Cable Internet and sat TV aren't distributed (to homes) using NDI, they use coax.
On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 1:37 AM Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com <mailto:joly@punkcast.com>> wrote:
How else would you distribute cable and sat tv? NDI or similar
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 1:15 PM Tom Deligiannis <tom.deligiannis@gmail.com <mailto:tom.deligiannis@gmail.com>> wrote:
How else would you distribute cable and sat tv? I would never buy a home or build a home if there weren't hard wired services to the home. The last thing I want to do is run all media streaming and internet surfing through a wireless 5g connection.
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 8:13 AM Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com <mailto:joly@punkcast.com>> wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why, in this day and age, coax?
Joly
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 7:14 AM Justin Streiner <streinerj@gmail.com <mailto:streinerj@gmail.com>> wrote:
When we built our new house 3 years ago, I had the electrician pull Cat7 and coax to most of the rooms in the house, since it would be way easier to do it before the drywall went up. They initially resisted because they had never worked with Cat7 before. I struck a deal with them where I bought the Cat7, they pulled it, and I terminated and tested it, and they were OK with that. Everything lands in the basement at our telco demarc sits, and everything has been working perfectly since then. The rack where everything lands is also tied to the house ground. I might consider 5G as a backup to our terrestrial fiber option, but haven't gone there yet.
The local electric utility tests our UPSs for free roughly once a month ;)
Thank you jms
On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:53 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com <mailto:sean@donelan.com>> wrote:
As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed.
The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider.
Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices.
I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel.
The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room.
I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house.
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 10:48 AM <joel@joelesler.net> wrote:
If I ever build the next house, I’ll ensure that Ethernet is installed just as extensively as electric wiring.
Hi Joel, As others have noted: conduit is smarter. Communication cable standards remain in a state of flux much more rapid than the lifetime of a house and the little blue one-inch conduits are not exceptionally expensive. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 8:15 PM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
As others have noted: conduit is smarter. Communication cable standards remain in a state of flux much more rapid than the lifetime of a house and the little blue one-inch conduits are not exceptionally expensive.
And electricians (and the inspectors) understand ENT(*) and it's installation requirements (yes it still has physical securing requirements, such as securing it near the box, and at regular intervals along its run). All in all, for a new construction, I would require it all to be in ENT. But, of course, a builder looks only at the lowest cost(s), as (probably) 98% of the buyers only look at how pretty the stainless steel appliances look like in the kitchen (surprise, surprise, those participating on the list are not the normal house purchaser). Gary (*) Commonly called smurf tubing due to a manufacturer's choice of blue, but it does come in other colors, and I think technically communications are supposed to be yellow per the most recent NFPA 70 (aka NEC), but I am absolutely too lazy to review the latest regulations.
NEC wouldn't apply to telecommunications/low voltage. You may think yellow is common because of single mode fiber. Gray is far more common in the field in/on buildings. OSP is usually orange, because orange is the color for telecommunications/phone/internet. Gas plants use yellow markers/tracer. On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 4:42 PM Gary Buhrmaster <gary.buhrmaster@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 8:15 PM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
As others have noted: conduit is smarter. Communication cable standards remain in a state of flux much more rapid than the lifetime of a house and the little blue one-inch conduits are not exceptionally expensive.
And electricians (and the inspectors) understand ENT(*) and it's installation requirements (yes it still has physical securing requirements, such as securing it near the box, and at regular intervals along its run).
All in all, for a new construction, I would require it all to be in ENT. But, of course, a builder looks only at the lowest cost(s), as (probably) 98% of the buyers only look at how pretty the stainless steel appliances look like in the kitchen (surprise, surprise, those participating on the list are not the normal house purchaser).
Gary
(*) Commonly called smurf tubing due to a manufacturer's choice of blue, but it does come in other colors, and I think technically communications are supposed to be yellow per the most recent NFPA 70 (aka NEC), but I am absolutely too lazy to review the latest regulations.
On 12/5/24 20:48, joel@joelesler.net wrote:
If I ever build the next house, I’ll ensure that Ethernet is installed just as extensively as electric wiring.
It's a no-brainer. My house was built in the early 90's, so no Ethernet at that time. I ran Ethernet to every room, some of it using STP through conduits crossing the roof to get across one end of the house to the other. It helped me avoid wireless extenders and meshing technologies. Mark.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 at 05:30, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
I ran Ethernet to every room, some of it using STP through conduits crossing the roof to get across one end of the house to the other. It helped me avoid wireless extenders and meshing technologies.
In the EU at least you cannot do that, you can't use the same conduits for data and power. But it's been in the code for a long time now to have ethernet upon delivery, both CAT6a (rooms) and fiber (just a single place is enough, I think). Personally I think the code is wrong, because the ethernet ports are next to power sockets at floor level, or at TV level in bedrooms in some countries. I think it's a niche use-case that people actually use wired ethernet to connect devices, and we shouldn't codify for minorities. I think code should include radio design, and put ports near lamps where radio design says AP should be, I think this would cater to the majority need. Minority can figure out their custom design. The ethernet ports are used so rarely, at least in my market it is normal to get termination delivered so wrong, you can only get 100M out of CAT6A (all 8 wires connected). And no one in the market appears to understand that just testing for conductivity isn't good enough or even understand the problem when described. So consumers are happily buying that >100M Internet, but will never get more than 100M, because they have poor termination. -- ++ytti
On 12/6/24 10:31, Saku Ytti wrote:
In the EU at least you cannot do that, you can't use the same conduits for data and power. But it's been in the code for a long time now to have ethernet upon delivery, both CAT6a (rooms) and fiber (just a single place is enough, I think).
I am using after-build conduits that are running either along the outside wall of the house, or lying on the roof (I have a flat roof). I am not using any of the electrical conduits that were burned into the concrete structure at the time of build. So these are carrying only Ethernet. No power or anything else. The coax for my satellite TV service is running its own conduit, also after-build. This is what most houses do in Africa, since any house that was built with in-built coax has only occurred in the last 10 years, while satellite TV services have been around since the early 90's.
Personally I think the code is wrong, because the ethernet ports are next to power sockets at floor level, or at TV level in bedrooms in some countries. I think it's a niche use-case that people actually use wired ethernet to connect devices, and we shouldn't codify for minorities. I think code should include radio design, and put ports near lamps where radio design says AP should be, I think this would cater to the majority need. Minority can figure out their custom design.
I agree. Most people rely on wi-fi to hook up their stationery devices. And then complain when all the buffering starts to occur, but let's leave that alone for now :-). Personally, anything that does not move (TV, PS5, Apple TV, Roku, satellite STB, A/V receiver, e.t.c.) gets a cable. The only devices we run on wi-fi are the mobile ones... laptops, cellphones, SIP-based hard phones, iPads, IoT devices, e.t.c.
The ethernet ports are used so rarely, at least in my market it is normal to get termination delivered so wrong, you can only get 100M out of CAT6A (all 8 wires connected). And no one in the market appears to understand that just testing for conductivity isn't good enough or even understand the problem when described. So consumers are happily buying that >100M Internet, but will never get more than 100M, because they have poor termination.
At least you get termination... what I am seeing in some houses in my market is the actual port and its housing are installed by the developer, but there is nothing connected at the back. By the time you realize there is no wire in the wall, or un-crimped wire at the back of the port, you've lost a day upgrading your router OS thinking it forgot how to go "port up/up". Mark.
The reason high voltage and low voltage aren’t permitted to share a conduit is safety. Chafing/rub outs that would energize low voltage cable and devices with high voltage aren’t protected against in the same way that a high voltage to high voltage short would be. It’s a low likelihood/high consequence fault that every modern jurisdictions code memorializes. ------ Original Message ------
From "Saku Ytti" <saku@ytti.fi> To "Mark Tinka" <mark@tinka.africa> Cc nanog@nanog.org Date 12/6/2024 3:31:41 AM Subject Re: New home builders without wires
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 at 05:30, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
I ran Ethernet to every room, some of it using STP through conduits crossing the roof to get across one end of the house to the other. It helped me avoid wireless extenders and meshing technologies.
In the EU at least you cannot do that, you can't use the same conduits for data and power. But it's been in the code for a long time now to have ethernet upon delivery, both CAT6a (rooms) and fiber (just a single place is enough, I think).
Personally I think the code is wrong, because the ethernet ports are next to power sockets at floor level, or at TV level in bedrooms in some countries. I think it's a niche use-case that people actually use wired ethernet to connect devices, and we shouldn't codify for minorities. I think code should include radio design, and put ports near lamps where radio design says AP should be, I think this would cater to the majority need. Minority can figure out their custom design.
The ethernet ports are used so rarely, at least in my market it is normal to get termination delivered so wrong, you can only get 100M out of CAT6A (all 8 wires connected). And no one in the market appears to understand that just testing for conductivity isn't good enough or even understand the problem when described. So consumers are happily buying that >100M Internet, but will never get more than 100M, because they have poor termination. -- ++ytti
Thankfully, the market is slowly realizing that you wire wired devices for reliability and performance. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Saku Ytti <saku@ytti.fi> To: Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Fri, 06 Dec 2024 02:31:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: New home builders without wires On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 at 05:30, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
I ran Ethernet to every room, some of it using STP through conduits crossing the roof to get across one end of the house to the other. It helped me avoid wireless extenders and meshing technologies.
In the EU at least you cannot do that, you can't use the same conduits for data and power. But it's been in the code for a long time now to have ethernet upon delivery, both CAT6a (rooms) and fiber (just a single place is enough, I think). Personally I think the code is wrong, because the ethernet ports are next to power sockets at floor level, or at TV level in bedrooms in some countries. I think it's a niche use-case that people actually use wired ethernet to connect devices, and we shouldn't codify for minorities. I think code should include radio design, and put ports near lamps where radio design says AP should be, I think this would cater to the majority need. Minority can figure out their custom design. The ethernet ports are used so rarely, at least in my market it is normal to get termination delivered so wrong, you can only get 100M out of CAT6A (all 8 wires connected). And no one in the market appears to understand that just testing for conductivity isn't good enough or even understand the problem when described. So consumers are happily buying that >100M Internet, but will never get more than 100M, because they have poor termination. -- ++ytti
Cable companies are still doing coax for new neighborhoods and even overbuilds in 2024, for some reason. One of the major cable operators just got done tearing up my neighborhood north of Houston (that already had coax from another major operator in addition to XGS-PON) to pull in coax with blazing fast speeds of up to 1200mbps down, 35mbps up, not even mid-split DOCSIS 3.1. When I reached out to said operator to ask why they were not pulling fiber, I was told that their “fiber rich” network was “just as good as fiber to the home”. On Dec 4, 2024, at 08:12, Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com> wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but why, in this day and age, coax? Joly On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 7:14 AM Justin Streiner <streinerj@gmail.com<mailto:streinerj@gmail.com>> wrote: When we built our new house 3 years ago, I had the electrician pull Cat7 and coax to most of the rooms in the house, since it would be way easier to do it before the drywall went up. They initially resisted because they had never worked with Cat7 before. I struck a deal with them where I bought the Cat7, they pulled it, and I terminated and tested it, and they were OK with that. Everything lands in the basement at our telco demarc sits, and everything has been working perfectly since then. The rack where everything lands is also tied to the house ground. I might consider 5G as a backup to our terrestrial fiber option, but haven't gone there yet. The local electric utility tests our UPSs for free roughly once a month ;) Thank you jms On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:53 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com<mailto:sean@donelan.com>> wrote: As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed. The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider. Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices. I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday. The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel. The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room. I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house. According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state. -- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 11:41 AM Tim Burke <tim@mid.net> wrote:
Cable companies are still doing coax for new neighborhoods and even overbuilds in 2024, for some reason.
Their staff knows how to run coax, how to troubleshoot coax and how to repair coax. To do something else, they have to hire and/or train staff for it and then have enough of it in their system to keep that staff in practice. How many _new neighborhoods_ does the cable company wire up in your locality each year? Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
For residential builds' TV, in many regards there is still nothing that has all of coax's advantages. Very cheap to buy cable Cable can survive a good bit of mishandling, pulling on ends, being stepped on etc. Cheap / simple to install and repair (outside of edge cases) Massive base of existing & new compatible hardware, both COTS and providers' No range / interference / load issues (for any standard house) Can be "split" anywhere in the system for up to a few additional drops without electronics (one amp at the panel can cover all the gain needed for the house) -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+colin-lists=highspeedcrow.ca@nanog.org> On Behalf Of William Herrin Sent: December 4, 2024 2:40 PM To: Tim Burke <tim@mid.net> Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: New home builders without wires On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 11:41 AM Tim Burke <tim@mid.net> wrote:
Cable companies are still doing coax for new neighborhoods and even overbuilds in 2024, for some reason.
Their staff knows how to run coax, how to troubleshoot coax and how to repair coax. To do something else, they have to hire and/or train staff for it and then have enough of it in their system to keep that staff in practice. How many _new neighborhoods_ does the cable company wire up in your locality each year? Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
The coax was part of the electrician's standard build package, so it was no added cost for us to leave it in their spec. While we're not using the coax today, it's handy to have if needed. I terminated and tested the coax while I was doing the Cat7 and it didn't take me much extra time. Thank you jms On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 9:13 AM Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com> wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why, in this day and age, coax?
Joly
On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 7:14 AM Justin Streiner <streinerj@gmail.com> wrote:
When we built our new house 3 years ago, I had the electrician pull Cat7 and coax to most of the rooms in the house, since it would be way easier to do it before the drywall went up. They initially resisted because they had never worked with Cat7 before. I struck a deal with them where I bought the Cat7, they pulled it, and I terminated and tested it, and they were OK with that. Everything lands in the basement at our telco demarc sits, and everything has been working perfectly since then. The rack where everything lands is also tied to the house ground. I might consider 5G as a backup to our terrestrial fiber option, but haven't gone there yet.
The local electric utility tests our UPSs for free roughly once a month ;)
Thank you jms
On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:53 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
As some may remember from earlier this year, my friend was buying a new "semi-custom" home. "Semi-custom" is a marketing term, meaning you get to choose (pay more) pre-determined builder options. It is not custom designed.
The home builder was not installing any wired broadband utilities in the new neighborhood. No cable coax, no telephone DSL, no fiber optic. The only option was wireless, with a special deal with a specific 5G wireless cellular provider.
Originally, the builder's sales agent (i.e. the people working in the model home selling houses) said new homes didn't need (and would not have) a wired "demarc" location and no ethernet or coax outlets. Not my house, but I was surprised when I heard that. I like wired connections when possible for any fixed devices, and WiFi only for mobile devices.
I visited his new house over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
The sales agent was partially wrong and partially correct. Never believe the sales agent spiel.
The built house came with exactly FOUR wired ethernet outlets in the living room and each bedroom/office (x2 Cat6 jacks each outlet). But no wired DEMARC, no coax outlets, and no wired broadband utilities in the neighhood. The wired ethernet jacks were needed because the wireless 5G base station ended up in an upstairs bedroom window for signal strength reasons. The in-house wired ethernet was needed for a WiFi extender in the living room.
I wouldn't be happy, but it seems to work for his family. The 5G deal was cheaper than what he was paying at his old house.
According to the real estate realtor, not the builder's sales agent, broadband is now in the top three things home buyers want to know. Some states require the realtor MLS to disclose broadband access in the home listings. Broadband access disclosure not required in this state.
-- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- -
Although some folks were talking about inside structured wiring, I was trying to address lack of outside plant (provider side to DEMARC). I went down the rabbit hole trying to understand what was happening when my friend first told me about buying in a neighborhood with no telephone or cable. It seemed strange to me, but apparently not strange. One thing both realtors and builders agree -- they hate ALL communication service providers (cable/telco/cellular). Realtors and builders can't get accurate service information from communication utilities, which is a huge problem building and selling homes. Utility hired subcontractors don't show up on time when a builder has the utility trenches open, or they show up months/years afterwards. Damage things digging up utility right-of-ways, that the developer has to repair. Realtors don't include broadband availability in their MLS because information from service providers about a specific address is often wrong. While broadband access & cellular reception is not in the top 10 list people want buying a house (kitchen, location, etc), lack of broadband availability and poor cellular reception is in the top 10 reasons for "failure to close" on a house (financing/mortgage, inspection/apprasal, title problems). Even if broadband availabilty is not an explicit contingency, according to realtors, buyers will try to refuse to close. https://broadbandmap.fcc.gov/home Current FCC broadband definition 100 Mbps down/20 Mbps up Cable 134.4 million households (82%) DSL 7 million households (4%) Fiber 74.9 million households(46%) Fixed wireless 77.3 million households (47%) Satellite 162.8 million households (99%) DSL 25Mbps/3Mbps may be a wired option in rural areas, but doesn't qualify as "broadband" under the new FCC definition. Cable or fiber 1G/100 Mbps is available in about 51% of housing units (mostly cities). As always, these are "up to" data rates -- not the guaranteed data rate.
On Wed, 2024-12-18 at 16:27 -0500, Sean Donelan wrote:
Utility hired subcontractors don't show up on time when a builder has the utility trenches open, or they show up months/years afterwards. Damage things digging up utility right-of-ways, that the developer has to repair.
A friend was involved in a development project in a regional town. They specified conduits everywhere. When the network people showed up at some random later date, they mostly just had to pull stuff through existing conduits. Not sure of the details beyond that, but he reckoned it cost a lot less that doing it all later.
Cable 134.4 million households (82%) DSL 7 million households (4%) Fiber 74.9 million households(46%) Fixed wireless 77.3 million households (47%) Satellite 162.8 million households (99%)
What are the percentages? Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au, he/him) http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Karl Auer wrote:
A friend was involved in a development project in a regional town. They specified conduits everywhere. When the network people showed up at some random later date, they mostly just had to pull stuff through existing conduits. Not sure of the details beyond that, but he reckoned it cost a lot less that doing it all later.
I'm not a real estate developer. I do not understand the reasoning. Its not a technical problem, its a business problem. The business incentives are messed up. One builder told me their margin on new houses is about 15%. They try to optimize out any costs not required. Spending money, so communication companies can save money later doesn't pay the developer's bills now. Some states have "dig once" rules requiring spare conduit or coordinated scheduling by utlities. But even "dig once" rules only apply to public roads, not private residential roads. Meanwhile wireless is free, from the developer's point of view. I know, folks outside the United States are shaking their heads. Other countries have very detailed requirements for public infrastructure serving new construction, including broadband access.
Cable 134.4 million households (82%) DSL 7 million households (4%) Fiber 74.9 million households(46%) Fixed wireless 77.3 million households (47%) Satellite 162.8 million households (99%)
What are the percentages?
Percentage of service addresses in USA ("passed" or "served") by each type of broadband technology, according to FCC data -- about 163 million address total. There are about 210 million addresses in the USA (including institutional, alias and virtual addresses) US Census count of housing units -- 147 M USPS count of delivery addresses -- 154 M residential, 12.6 M commercial
When my wife and I were preparing to build our house a few years ago, solid terrestrial connectivity was one of the top things on my must-have list, because we both work from home the vast majority of the time. It took some tenacity with the local FTTH provider to determine if they served this area, because we're in a very tiny portion of a ZIP code that's fed from a different wire center than most of the rest of the municipality, but ultimately, I persevered :) Before I found out they already had fiber in the ground, I went through the exercise of pricing out a fiber build from another provider in the area. That conversation ended when I found out that the roughly 1 km of lateral build and construction into the new house would cost us $27k. We were also very fortunate that the builder provided two 2" Schedule 40 conduits from the side of our house out to the utility hand-holes in the right-of-way, in addition to the conduit for the electrical service. It made getting the fiber into the house very easy. One mile further east, and we would've been stuck with the local cable provider. Thank you jms On Fri, Dec 20, 2024 at 4:02 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Karl Auer wrote:
A friend was involved in a development project in a regional town. They specified conduits everywhere. When the network people showed up at some random later date, they mostly just had to pull stuff through existing conduits. Not sure of the details beyond that, but he reckoned it cost a lot less that doing it all later.
I'm not a real estate developer. I do not understand the reasoning.
Its not a technical problem, its a business problem. The business incentives are messed up. One builder told me their margin on new houses is about 15%. They try to optimize out any costs not required. Spending money, so communication companies can save money later doesn't pay the developer's bills now.
Some states have "dig once" rules requiring spare conduit or coordinated scheduling by utlities. But even "dig once" rules only apply to public roads, not private residential roads. Meanwhile wireless is free, from the developer's point of view.
I know, folks outside the United States are shaking their heads. Other countries have very detailed requirements for public infrastructure serving new construction, including broadband access.
Cable 134.4 million households (82%) DSL 7 million households (4%) Fiber 74.9 million households(46%) Fixed wireless 77.3 million households (47%) Satellite 162.8 million households (99%)
What are the percentages?
Percentage of service addresses in USA ("passed" or "served") by each type of broadband technology, according to FCC data -- about 163 million address total.
There are about 210 million addresses in the USA (including institutional, alias and virtual addresses) US Census count of housing units -- 147 M USPS count of delivery addresses -- 154 M residential, 12.6 M commercial
That seems about right -- $70k per mile for main-line in a relatively rural area is what we're looking at right now. Depends on a lot of things (directional boring vs direct plow, etc). -----Original Message----- From: "Justin Streiner" <streinerj@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2024 4:45pm To: Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: New home builders without wires When my wife and I were preparing to build our house a few years ago, solid terrestrial connectivity was one of the top things on my must-have list, because we both work from home the vast majority of the time. It took some tenacity with the local FTTH provider to determine if they served this area, because we're in a very tiny portion of a ZIP code that's fed from a different wire center than most of the rest of the municipality, but ultimately, I persevered :) Before I found out they already had fiber in the ground, I went through the exercise of pricing out a fiber build from another provider in the area. That conversation ended when I found out that the roughly 1 km of lateral build and construction into the new house would cost us $27k. We were also very fortunate that the builder provided two 2" Schedule 40 conduits from the side of our house out to the utility hand-holes in the right-of-way, in addition to the conduit for the electrical service. It made getting the fiber into the house very easy. One mile further east, and we would've been stuck with the local cable provider. Thank you jms On Fri, Dec 20, 2024 at 4:02 PM Sean Donelan <[ sean@donelan.com ]( mailto:sean@donelan.com )> wrote:On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Karl Auer wrote:
A friend was involved in a development project in a regional town. They specified conduits everywhere. When the network people showed up at some random later date, they mostly just had to pull stuff through existing conduits. Not sure of the details beyond that, but he reckoned it cost a lot less that doing it all later.
I'm not a real estate developer. I do not understand the reasoning. Its not a technical problem, its a business problem. The business incentives are messed up. One builder told me their margin on new houses is about 15%. They try to optimize out any costs not required. Spending money, so communication companies can save money later doesn't pay the developer's bills now. Some states have "dig once" rules requiring spare conduit or coordinated scheduling by utlities. But even "dig once" rules only apply to public roads, not private residential roads. Meanwhile wireless is free, from the developer's point of view. I know, folks outside the United States are shaking their heads. Other countries have very detailed requirements for public infrastructure serving new construction, including broadband access.
Cable 134.4 million households (82%) DSL 7 million households (4%) Fiber 74.9 million households(46%) Fixed wireless 77.3 million households (47%) Satellite 162.8 million households (99%)
What are the percentages?
Percentage of service addresses in USA ("passed" or "served") by each type of broadband technology, according to FCC data -- about 163 million address total. There are about 210 million addresses in the USA (including institutional, alias and virtual addresses) US Census count of housing units -- 147 M USPS count of delivery addresses -- 154 M residential, 12.6 M commercial
Send that builder a fruit basket. That's behavior we need to encourage. --TimH On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 16:45:15 -0500 Justin Streiner <streinerj@gmail.com> wrote:
We were also very fortunate that the builder provided two 2" Schedule 40 conduits from the side of our house out to the utility hand-holes in the right-of-way, in addition to the conduit for the electrical service. It made getting the fiber into the house very easy.
About 20% of new home construction is owner-financed ("Custom" homes). The builder will add essentially any "commercially reasonable" options the owner is willing to pay for. But even the rich can't fix broadband access beyond their property line. About 80% of new home construction is builder-financed ("Tract" or "Spec" homes). Builders have a fixed menu of construction options. A "Smart Home" seems to mean a Ring doorbell and Nest thermostat. The neighborhood infrastructure is usually the minimum required by building code. In many states, there is essentially no minimum outside of city limits. About 1% is Ultra-Rich home construction. As one builder described it "The Laws of Physics don't apply to these homes." I looked up the top 10 broadband network provider CEO's home addresses (don't worry, I'm not posting a list of CEO home addresses). Some have several houses, so I chose one of their residential addresses near their corporate HQ -- assuming Return-to-Office means they commute to their corporate HQ. Eight out of the top 10 broadband CEO's homes had 10 Gbps service available, and all had at least 1 Gbps service available at the home address nearest their HQ according to the FCC Broadband Map. I didn't check apparent secondary/vacation homes.
When I built my house a few years ago I put a 0 entry hand hole with 2" conduit in the ROW in front and pulled 96 SM into the basement. It takes a little convincing to get the providers to connect out there instead of running their own lines into my house but so far so good. ------ Original Message ------
From "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com> To nanog@nanog.org Date 12/27/2024 1:29:00 PM Subject Re: New home builders without wires
About 20% of new home construction is owner-financed ("Custom" homes). The builder will add essentially any "commercially reasonable" options the owner is willing to pay for. But even the rich can't fix broadband access beyond their property line.
About 80% of new home construction is builder-financed ("Tract" or "Spec" homes). Builders have a fixed menu of construction options. A "Smart Home" seems to mean a Ring doorbell and Nest thermostat. The neighborhood infrastructure is usually the minimum required by building code. In many states, there is essentially no minimum outside of city limits.
About 1% is Ultra-Rich home construction. As one builder described it "The Laws of Physics don't apply to these homes."
I looked up the top 10 broadband network provider CEO's home addresses (don't worry, I'm not posting a list of CEO home addresses). Some have several houses, so I chose one of their residential addresses near their corporate HQ -- assuming Return-to-Office means they commute to their corporate HQ.
Eight out of the top 10 broadband CEO's homes had 10 Gbps service available, and all had at least 1 Gbps service available at the home address nearest their HQ according to the FCC Broadband Map. I didn't check apparent secondary/vacation homes.
On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Aaron Wendel wrote:
When I built my house a few years ago I put a 0 entry hand hole with 2" conduit in the ROW in front and pulled 96 SM into the basement. It takes a little convincing to get the providers to connect out there instead of running their own lines into my house but so far so good.
Things I learned. In USA, the provider DEMARC used to be at the building wall (i.e. 12-inches minimum point of entry inside the building). Fiber providers sometimes install the ONT inside the wiring structured infrastructure cabinet instead on the building outside wall now. In many other countries, the DEMARC is at the ROW/property line. Comparing broadband techniques between countries. The builder/owner is responsible for construction between the ROW/property line and the building. But if the neighborhood builder/developer has no broadband providers (coax, telco or fiber) in the ROW, it doesn't matter. In OECD broadband statistics, USA ranks 15th out of 36 countries. France and South Korea are #1 and #2.
" The builder/owner is responsible for construction between the ROW/property line and the building." and to the ISP, that's the most expensive part of the equation. It should would be nice to not be financially responsible for that. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com> To: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2024 4:36:36 PM Subject: Re[2]: New home builders without wires On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Aaron Wendel wrote:
When I built my house a few years ago I put a 0 entry hand hole with 2" conduit in the ROW in front and pulled 96 SM into the basement. It takes a little convincing to get the providers to connect out there instead of running their own lines into my house but so far so good.
Things I learned. In USA, the provider DEMARC used to be at the building wall (i.e. 12-inches minimum point of entry inside the building). Fiber providers sometimes install the ONT inside the wiring structured infrastructure cabinet instead on the building outside wall now. In many other countries, the DEMARC is at the ROW/property line. Comparing broadband techniques between countries. The builder/owner is responsible for construction between the ROW/property line and the building. But if the neighborhood builder/developer has no broadband providers (coax, telco or fiber) in the ROW, it doesn't matter. In OECD broadband statistics, USA ranks 15th out of 36 countries. France and South Korea are #1 and #2.
I just wish I had the hook up at my local ISP (Armstrong). They are currently running fiber to replace their Coax infrastructure, but they haven’t done it down my street yet. I wish they would!
On Dec 27, 2024, at 17:56, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
"The builder/owner is responsible for construction between the ROW/property line and the building."
and to the ISP, that's the most expensive part of the equation. It should would be nice to not be financially responsible for that.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> From: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com> To: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2024 4:36:36 PM Subject: Re[2]: New home builders without wires
On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Aaron Wendel wrote:
When I built my house a few years ago I put a 0 entry hand hole with 2" conduit in the ROW in front and pulled 96 SM into the basement. It takes a little convincing to get the providers to connect out there instead of running their own lines into my house but so far so good.
Things I learned.
In USA, the provider DEMARC used to be at the building wall (i.e. 12-inches minimum point of entry inside the building). Fiber providers sometimes install the ONT inside the wiring structured infrastructure cabinet instead on the building outside wall now.
In many other countries, the DEMARC is at the ROW/property line. Comparing broadband techniques between countries. The builder/owner is responsible for construction between the ROW/property line and the building.
But if the neighborhood builder/developer has no broadband providers (coax, telco or fiber) in the ROW, it doesn't matter.
In OECD broadband statistics, USA ranks 15th out of 36 countries. France and South Korea are #1 and #2.
" But even the rich can't fix broadband access beyond their property line." It depends on how rich. ;-) ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Friday, December 27, 2024 1:29:00 PM Subject: Re: New home builders without wires About 20% of new home construction is owner-financed ("Custom" homes). The builder will add essentially any "commercially reasonable" options the owner is willing to pay for. But even the rich can't fix broadband access beyond their property line. About 80% of new home construction is builder-financed ("Tract" or "Spec" homes). Builders have a fixed menu of construction options. A "Smart Home" seems to mean a Ring doorbell and Nest thermostat. The neighborhood infrastructure is usually the minimum required by building code. In many states, there is essentially no minimum outside of city limits. About 1% is Ultra-Rich home construction. As one builder described it "The Laws of Physics don't apply to these homes." I looked up the top 10 broadband network provider CEO's home addresses (don't worry, I'm not posting a list of CEO home addresses). Some have several houses, so I chose one of their residential addresses near their corporate HQ -- assuming Return-to-Office means they commute to their corporate HQ. Eight out of the top 10 broadband CEO's homes had 10 Gbps service available, and all had at least 1 Gbps service available at the home address nearest their HQ according to the FCC Broadband Map. I didn't check apparent secondary/vacation homes.
On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Mike Hammett wrote:
"But even the rich can't fix broadband access beyond their property line."
It depends on how rich. ;-)
The limitations of the FCC Broadband map, if you are in the Top 10 (not percent, the Top 10) wealthest people in the USA, it doesn't apply to reality. Why the builder said "The Laws of Physic don't apply." Bill Gates, former Microsoft CEO, residential address (again, not listing his address, even though everyone knows where he lived) No broadband fiber available DSL/Cable max 1.2 Gbps down / 35 Mbps up Satellite broadband available I have no idea what network access Mr. Gates has at home. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Gates has OC/SONET special access service which doesn't show up in the FCC data. If you are in the Top 10, laws of physics don't apply to home construction :-) For everyone else, like my friend's new house, the infrastructure is not there.
But you don't have to be that rich. You just need friendly local companies to work with. -----Mike HammettIntelligent Computing SolutionsMidwest Internet ExchangeThe Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 19:38:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: New home builders without wires On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Mike Hammett wrote:
"But even the rich can't fix broadband access beyond their property line."
It depends on how rich. ;-)
The limitations of the FCC Broadband map, if you are in the Top 10 (not percent, the Top 10) wealthest people in the USA, it doesn't apply to reality. Why the builder said "The Laws of Physic don't apply." Bill Gates, former Microsoft CEO, residential address (again, not listing his address, even though everyone knows where he lived) No broadband fiber available DSL/Cable max 1.2 Gbps down / 35 Mbps up Satellite broadband available I have no idea what network access Mr. Gates has at home. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Gates has OC/SONET special access service which doesn't show up in the FCC data. If you are in the Top 10, laws of physics don't apply to home construction :-) For everyone else, like my friend's new house, the infrastructure is not there.
But you don't have to be that rich. You just need friendly local companies to work with. -----Mike HammettIntelligent Computing SolutionsMidwest Internet ExchangeThe Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 19:38:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: New home builders without wires On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Mike Hammett wrote:
"But even the rich can't fix broadband access beyond their property line."
It depends on how rich. ;-)
The limitations of the FCC Broadband map, if you are in the Top 10 (not percent, the Top 10) wealthest people in the USA, it doesn't apply to reality. Why the builder said "The Laws of Physic don't apply." Bill Gates, former Microsoft CEO, residential address (again, not listing his address, even though everyone knows where he lived) No broadband fiber available DSL/Cable max 1.2 Gbps down / 35 Mbps up Satellite broadband available I have no idea what network access Mr. Gates has at home. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Gates has OC/SONET special access service which doesn't show up in the FCC data. If you are in the Top 10, laws of physics don't apply to home construction :-) For everyone else, like my friend's new house, the infrastructure is not there.
On Sat, 28 Dec 2024, Mike Hammett wrote:
But you don't have to be that rich. You just need friendly local companies to work with.
I'm not personal friends with any multi-billionaires, and I don't get invited to parties at multi-billionaire mega-mansions. So I don't have first-hand experience with multi-billionaire home construction. This thread began with my friends new tract-home subdivision construction (developer-financed), which only has 5G wireless broadband. No cable, no telco, no fiber. According to Loudoun County, VA; in order to qualify for NTIA BEAD grant subsidies, residential addresses can't have ANY wired broadband service (cable or fiber). Apparently the rural (non-bell) telco serving the area ceased business in 2021. ISPs aren't sharing NTIA BEAD grant money with property developers for pre-construction ROW preparation. Electric companies can qualify for pre-construction "Make-Ready" funds for utility poles. I don't know the details of construction business money arrangements or if someone is misunderstanding NTIA's BEAD rules. If you are not rich enough to build a custom home, 70% of new home construction are tract homes. Your buying options are what the developer negotiated or didn't negotiate. When I went down the rabbit-hole doing my own research trying to understand what weird business reason why my friend's brand-new house didn't have broadband, I didn't look at apartments or multi-tenant construction.
But you don't have to be that rich. You just need friendly local companies to work with. -----Mike HammettIntelligent Computing SolutionsMidwest Internet ExchangeThe Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 19:38:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: New home builders without wires On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Mike Hammett wrote:
"But even the rich can't fix broadband access beyond their property line."
It depends on how rich. ;-)
The limitations of the FCC Broadband map, if you are in the Top 10 (not percent, the Top 10) wealthest people in the USA, it doesn't apply to reality. Why the builder said "The Laws of Physic don't apply." Bill Gates, former Microsoft CEO, residential address (again, not listing his address, even though everyone knows where he lived) No broadband fiber available DSL/Cable max 1.2 Gbps down / 35 Mbps up Satellite broadband available I have no idea what network access Mr. Gates has at home. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Gates has OC/SONET special access service which doesn't show up in the FCC data. If you are in the Top 10, laws of physics don't apply to home construction :-) For everyone else, like my friend's new house, the infrastructure is not there.
Why can't Gates just use the 1.2 Gbps Cable? Just because he has the wealth to do something doesn't mean there's any requirement to do so. On Fri, Dec 27, 2024 at 8:38 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
"But even the rich can't fix broadband access beyond their property
On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Mike Hammett wrote: line."
It depends on how rich. ;-)
The limitations of the FCC Broadband map, if you are in the Top 10 (not percent, the Top 10) wealthest people in the USA, it doesn't apply to reality. Why the builder said "The Laws of Physic don't apply."
Bill Gates, former Microsoft CEO, residential address (again, not listing his address, even though everyone knows where he lived)
No broadband fiber available
DSL/Cable max 1.2 Gbps down / 35 Mbps up
Satellite broadband available
I have no idea what network access Mr. Gates has at home. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Gates has OC/SONET special access service which doesn't show up in the FCC data. If you are in the Top 10, laws of physics don't apply to home construction :-)
For everyone else, like my friend's new house, the infrastructure is not there.
On Sun, 29 Dec 2024, Josh Luthman wrote:
Why can't Gates just use the 1.2 Gbps Cable? Just because he has the wealth to do something doesn't mean there's any requirement to do so.
Uhm. Do you realize that cable is asymetric, with less than 35 Mbps upstream, and marketing bandwidth numbers aren't real? Mega-mansions like the Gates estate are like small hotels, and sometimes have parties (charity events) with over 200 people, and corporate events with over 500 people. The "home" was small enterprise in itself. When I worked at an ISP in California, we had a few multi-billionaire customers, and several multi-millionaire customers. They had dedicated internet access (DIA) and special access circuits. Most had an "IT guy" who took care of it. They didn't wait for a field service appointment between 8am-5pm, their IT Guy did the waiting :-) Unlike some celebrity customers, the really, really rich customers were nice to the customer service folks.
On 12/30/24 14:09, Sean Donelan wrote:
Uhm. Do you realize that cable is asymetric, with less than 35 Mbps upstream, and marketing bandwidth numbers aren't real? Mega-mansions like the Gates estate are like small hotels, and sometimes have parties (charity events) with over 200 people, and corporate events with over 500 people. The "home" was small enterprise in itself.
To be fair to the HFC operators, if you've got a high split deployed, 100+Mbps upstream numbers are now realistic and upwards of 500Mbps is possible, though I have yet to see a practical deployment do it. Likewise, if you've got lots of usable RF bandwidth and are willing to pay to pack DOCSIS 4 carriers in there, you can get like 20Gbps per node of usable downstream bandwidth. Even a fairly large node can statistically deliver multi-gig resi service at that point. I've heard some of the cable MSOs are looking to retire linear OpenCable type video and move to multicast over DOCSIS to make the latter happen. The former is a lot harder obviously and requires field work including potentially changing out things at or even inside customer prem. But yeah, I'm of the impression that anything we'd colloquially call a "mansion" (which is much bigger than what the real estate agents would call one) is probably going to have dedicated service of some sort. The same goes for larger hotels, though smaller (and low-rate) ones usually just go with small-business consumer access mechanisms. -- Brandon Martin
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024, Brandon Martin wrote:
But yeah, I'm of the impression that anything we'd colloquially call a "mansion" (which is much bigger than what the real estate agents would call one) is probably going to have dedicated service of some sort. The same goes for larger hotels, though smaller (and low-rate) ones usually just go with small-business consumer access mechanisms.
I'm not worried about the 400 mega-billionaires. If a certain mega-billionaire wants to build a company town in Brownsville Texas with ZERO terrestrial communication alternatives according to the FCC Broadband Map (no cable, no fiber, not even 5G cellular fixed wireless), you better like Starlink. Ignoring the top 1%, and even the top 20% who build (owner-financed) custom homes. I'm still wondering, for the 70% of new tract home construction, are ISPs not interested in greenfield construction anymore? Greenfield construction used to be much cheaper than brownfield development projects later. I assume some ISP business finance reason I don't understand. 5G fixed wireless is that good now? Or that cheap now?
As an ISP, we're interested. Just tough to get developers to respond to us. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2025 5:51:45 PM Subject: Re: New home builders without wires On Mon, 30 Dec 2024, Brandon Martin wrote:
But yeah, I'm of the impression that anything we'd colloquially call a "mansion" (which is much bigger than what the real estate agents would call one) is probably going to have dedicated service of some sort. The same goes for larger hotels, though smaller (and low-rate) ones usually just go with small-business consumer access mechanisms.
I'm not worried about the 400 mega-billionaires. If a certain mega-billionaire wants to build a company town in Brownsville Texas with ZERO terrestrial communication alternatives according to the FCC Broadband Map (no cable, no fiber, not even 5G cellular fixed wireless), you better like Starlink. Ignoring the top 1%, and even the top 20% who build (owner-financed) custom homes. I'm still wondering, for the 70% of new tract home construction, are ISPs not interested in greenfield construction anymore? Greenfield construction used to be much cheaper than brownfield development projects later. I assume some ISP business finance reason I don't understand. 5G fixed wireless is that good now? Or that cheap now?
In our area of Canada, the electrical company has a "shared trench" agreement, where ISPs (who have done the paperwork and have elected to get involved in X project in a Y subdivision) have access to put their own conduit in while the trenches are dug for electrical, or they can pay the same contractor who does the electrical work to also put in conduit to their own specs / connected to their ISP system. Since it's usually done for greenfield and a shared build, the costs can be lower even when you consider the fact that the electrical company's subcontractors are often a lot more expensive per hour / bureaucratic than for the in-house ISP crews. I would assume that that model is done in most places, but definitely cannot guarantee. There are some developers who may be doing their electrical separate from the electrical company before turning it over, so they may choose not to get involved in such agreements to save time/money. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+colin-lists=highspeedcrow.ca@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Sean Donelan Sent: January 2, 2025 5:52 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: New home builders without wires On Mon, 30 Dec 2024, Brandon Martin wrote:
But yeah, I'm of the impression that anything we'd colloquially call a "mansion" (which is much bigger than what the real estate agents would call one) is probably going to have dedicated service of some sort. The same goes for larger hotels, though smaller (and low-rate) ones usually just go with small-business consumer access mechanisms.
I'm not worried about the 400 mega-billionaires. If a certain mega-billionaire wants to build a company town in Brownsville Texas with ZERO terrestrial communication alternatives according to the FCC Broadband Map (no cable, no fiber, not even 5G cellular fixed wireless), you better like Starlink. Ignoring the top 1%, and even the top 20% who build (owner-financed) custom homes. I'm still wondering, for the 70% of new tract home construction, are ISPs not interested in greenfield construction anymore? Greenfield construction used to be much cheaper than brownfield development projects later. I assume some ISP business finance reason I don't understand. 5G fixed wireless is that good now? Or that cheap now?
participants (26)
-
Aaron Wendel -
Brandon Martin -
Colin Stanners (lists) -
Daniel Golding -
Daryl Jurbala -
Gary Buhrmaster -
Jay Hennigan -
Jerry Cloe -
joel＠joelesler.net -
Joly MacFie -
Josh Baird -
Josh Luthman -
Justin Streiner -
Karl Auer -
Mark Tinka -
Mike Hammett -
Nathan Angelacos -
Saku Ytti -
Sean Donelan -
Shawn L -
Tim Burke -
Tim Howe -
Tom Deligiannis -
Tom Mitchell -
Vasilenko Eduard -
William Herrin