From: Dan.Thorson@seagate.com
From what I recall there is no guarentee that the Qwest tarrif for NB3 is actually a straight-through copper pair [section 7.3.1.B.2.a.(4)]... note the restriction of signaling frequency.... see the Terms & Conditions in section 7.3.1.B.2.a.(2).
By requesting a circuit that offers 60Hz and/or DC signalling that pretty much requires them to use Copper, if they have it available. The only way to know if they have it available is to order the circuit. After a few days the order will hit their design department which will look at the order and determine if facilities exist to provison the circuit. Some newer office towers and subdivisons/developments may be fed with fiber using Digital Loop Carrier(DLC/SLC) equipment in a CEV hut. While there is still a copper loop to each home or business from the CEV/Hut, the loop ends at the SLC and the voice is converted to PCM over fiber to extend to the C.O. Our Telco uses a slightly different wording in their Tariff for this lack of DC continuity disclaimer...: "The provisioning of metallic or DC continuity applied until 1993 12 31. Thereafter, the provisioning of metallic or DC continuity is provided only where metallic facilities currently exist, following normal provisioning practices. Where capacity is exhausted, or where appropriate facilities do not exist, the Company will evaluate all requests and only provide end-to-end metallic facilities at the customer's expense based on the cost incurred by the Company." The largest concern is usually the length of the circuit because how they route the circuit is not always intuitive and the cable may take a circuitous route between your two locations. Usually they can estimate the loop length when the do the design. The limitation on frequency/pulses is largely administrative verbiage. I highly doubt they will install a filter on the circuit to prevent higher speed. (Although it is possible) At one time I think the different speed circuits where priced differently. I suppose a few decades ago the differnce between 30 bits per second and 75 bits per second was considered a large amount of difference. ;-) -Randy
I have been following the thread very intensly since I read the article that William Warren posted. I also have two locations that I wish to connect, and we were looking at 802.11b with cantennas. This may not work because it looks like there are a lot of trees between the two locations, and they may be just out of range. We weren't sure what our other options where till this came along (we really can't afford t1 connections). Qwest has stated that one of the two locations has the fiber connectivity Randy Neals mentioned below. That does put a damper on the homebrew dsl connectivity. How would an alarm company get around this? Would Qwest need to run copper into the neighborhood if any one of the people purchased an alarm? If not, how would the alarm company get the signal pushed through the fiber, and could that be done with the dsl signal? pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Neals (ORION)" <randy.neals@orion.on.ca> To: <Dan.Thorson@seagate.com> Cc: "'Austad, Jay'" <JAustad@temgweb.com>; <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 2:46 PM Subject: RE: dry pair
From: Dan.Thorson@seagate.com
From what I recall there is no guarentee that the Qwest tarrif for NB3 is actually a straight-through copper pair [section 7.3.1.B.2.a.(4)]... note the restriction of signaling frequency.... see the Terms & Conditions in section 7.3.1.B.2.a.(2).
By requesting a circuit that offers 60Hz and/or DC signalling that pretty much requires them to use Copper, if they have it available. The only way to know if they have it available is to order the circuit. After a few days the order will hit their design department which will look at the order and determine if facilities exist to provison the circuit.
Some newer office towers and subdivisons/developments may be fed with fiber using Digital Loop Carrier(DLC/SLC) equipment in a CEV hut. While there is still a copper loop to each home or business from the CEV/Hut, the loop ends at the SLC and the voice is converted to PCM over fiber to extend to the C.O.
Our Telco uses a slightly different wording in their Tariff for this lack of DC continuity disclaimer...: "The provisioning of metallic or DC continuity applied until 1993 12 31. Thereafter, the provisioning of metallic or DC continuity is provided only where metallic facilities currently exist, following normal provisioning practices. Where capacity is exhausted, or where appropriate facilities do not exist, the Company will evaluate all requests and only provide end-to-end metallic facilities at the customer's expense based on the cost incurred by the Company."
The largest concern is usually the length of the circuit because how they route the circuit is not always intuitive and the cable may take a circuitous route between your two locations. Usually they can estimate the loop length when the do the design.
The limitation on frequency/pulses is largely administrative verbiage. I highly doubt they will install a filter on the circuit to prevent higher speed. (Although it is possible) At one time I think the different speed circuits where priced differently. I suppose a few decades ago the differnce between 30 bits per second and 75 bits per second was considered a large amount of difference. ;-)
-Randy
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Patrick Felt wrote:
I have been following the thread very intensly since I read the article that William Warren posted.
I also have two locations that I wish to connect, and we were looking at 802.11b with cantennas. This may not work because it looks like there are a lot of trees between the two locations, and they may be just out of range. We weren't sure what our other options where till this came along (we really can't afford t1 connections).
Qwest has stated that one of the two locations has the fiber connectivity Randy Neals mentioned below. That does put a damper on the homebrew dsl connectivity.
How would an alarm company get around this?
Probably the alarm company would use slightly different gear and settle for what in qwest terminology is a plt (private line transport) ds0, or maybe dds, which is a syncronous serial service)
Would Qwest need to run copper into the neighborhood if any one of the people purchased an alarm?
not likely. if it's a feasable buildout they'll be happy to charge you for the construction involved in delivering the service. but that will push out the delivery date and probably increase the cost to the point where it's not really affordable... most adt style home alarms systems use your existing pots telephone line anyway. most alarms circuit applications are to insure that things like the door on your bank vault or the cryogenic refrigerator in your sperm bank don't fail without someone noticing.
If not, how would the alarm company get the signal pushed through the fiber, and could that be done with the dsl signal?
The alarm companies need to deliver extremely small amounts of data which can range from make or break circuits to 60 300 or 2400bps data for things like building control systems, that's a considerably different problem than try to ram 1-7mb/s through a 25,000 foot long piece of wire.
pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Neals (ORION)" <randy.neals@orion.on.ca> To: <Dan.Thorson@seagate.com> Cc: "'Austad, Jay'" <JAustad@temgweb.com>; <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 2:46 PM Subject: RE: dry pair
From: Dan.Thorson@seagate.com
From what I recall there is no guarentee that the Qwest tarrif for NB3 is actually a straight-through copper pair [section 7.3.1.B.2.a.(4)]... note the restriction of signaling frequency.... see the Terms & Conditions in section 7.3.1.B.2.a.(2).
By requesting a circuit that offers 60Hz and/or DC signalling that pretty much requires them to use Copper, if they have it available. The only way to know if they have it available is to order the circuit. After a few days the order will hit their design department which will look at the order and determine if facilities exist to provison the circuit.
Some newer office towers and subdivisons/developments may be fed with fiber using Digital Loop Carrier(DLC/SLC) equipment in a CEV hut. While there is still a copper loop to each home or business from the CEV/Hut, the loop ends at the SLC and the voice is converted to PCM over fiber to extend to the C.O.
Our Telco uses a slightly different wording in their Tariff for this lack of DC continuity disclaimer...: "The provisioning of metallic or DC continuity applied until 1993 12 31. Thereafter, the provisioning of metallic or DC continuity is provided only where metallic facilities currently exist, following normal provisioning practices. Where capacity is exhausted, or where appropriate facilities do not exist, the Company will evaluate all requests and only provide end-to-end metallic facilities at the customer's expense based on the cost incurred by the Company."
The largest concern is usually the length of the circuit because how they route the circuit is not always intuitive and the cable may take a circuitous route between your two locations. Usually they can estimate the loop length when the do the design.
The limitation on frequency/pulses is largely administrative verbiage. I highly doubt they will install a filter on the circuit to prevent higher speed. (Although it is possible) At one time I think the different speed circuits where priced differently. I suppose a few decades ago the differnce between 30 bits per second and 75 bits per second was considered a large amount of difference. ;-)
-Randy
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joel Jaeggli Unix Consulting joelja@darkwing.uoregon.edu GPG Key Fingerprint: 5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2
At 23:03 29/08/2003, Joel Jaeggli wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Patrick Felt wrote:
[snip]
If not, how would the alarm company get the signal pushed through the fiber, and could that be done with the dsl signal?
The alarm companies need to deliver extremely small amounts of data which can range from make or break circuits to 60 300 or 2400bps data for things like building control systems, that's a considerably different problem than try to ram 1-7mb/s through a 25,000 foot long piece of wire.
Not necessarily, the bit rate may be higher. Good modern alarms use a cryptographically secured bitstream to provide the anti-tamper part of the line protection. A cryptographically useful message size with a reasonably short delay between 'raise alarm' and 'indicate alarm' requires a fair bit rate.
How would an alarm company get around this? Would Qwest need to run copper into the neighborhood if any one of the people purchased an alarm? If not, how would the alarm company get the signal pushed through the fiber, and could that be done with the dsl signal?
Most home/small business alarm systems use a digital dialer and use a regular dial up phone line. The alarm system dials the alarm monitoring station then uses a low speed data protocol to report the alarm. Of course if the line is cut the alarm can't get through. For businesses that are required to have a monitored/dedicated line on their alarm there is a newer technology called "DVACS" which uses a low speed Frequency Shift F1/F2 modem to communicate alarms over a voice-band private line. Voice-band (300-3000Hz) private lines as well as 56K/64K DDS and ISDN digital lines can be provisoned over most DLC/SLC fiber systems. -Randy
participants (4)
-
Ian Mason -
Joel Jaeggli -
Patrick Felt -
Randy Neals (ORION)