California public safety power shutdowns
Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas. Shut-offs are taking place in three phases. PG&E began shutoffs at midnight in Northern California and the North Bay counties, while the rest of the Bay Area is scheduled to begin losing power in waves at noon. A possible third phase will occur later in the day in the southernmost parts of the PG&E service area in the San Joaquin Valley and Central Coast. Southern California Edison said it's considering cutting power to more than 100,000 customers in eight counties. The utilities haven't said how many people the outages will affect in all.
On Oct 9, 2019, at 12:36 PM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.
Shut-offs are taking place in three phases. PG&E began shutoffs at midnight in Northern California and the North Bay counties, while the rest of the Bay Area is scheduled to begin losing power in waves at noon. A possible third phase will occur later in the day in the southernmost parts of the PG&E service area in the San Joaquin Valley and Central Coast.
Southern California Edison said it's considering cutting power to more than 100,000 customers in eight counties. The utilities haven't said how many people the outages will affect in all.
Indeed. Meanwhile, I'm in Walnut Creek, and estimates of wind velocity here vary from zero to five knots.
Questions & some answers... - Will this affect public water supply? Generally no. Public water supplies have backup generators. Since this is only a power shut-off, and no other damage or disaster to the water system, public water systems will operate as normal. Nevertheless, its always a good idea to have 3 to 7 days bottled water stored for emergencies. - Will this affect cellphone service? Generally no because this is a power shutoff, without other disaster damage. All major switching offices have backup generators for 24 to 72 hours and nearly all cell towers and outside plant have backup batteries for 4 to 8 hours and/or backup generators. Service providers should be able to re-charge batteries and refill generator tanks throughout the power shut-off. Of course, if there is some other disaster during this time, there would be less resiliance in the network. During wildfire, only a couple of cell towers were damaged by fire. Most of the cellular outages were due to damage to backhaul fiber, i.e. trees fallling on lines and melted fiber cables. For longer power outages, you can recharge your cell phone with an external battery or solar charger can help. Remember, Cable and DSL VOIP and in-home wireless phones need electric power to operate. There are fewer and fewer copper-fed POTS lines with power from the telephone central office. - What about CB radio? California Highway Patrol does not regularly monitor CB radio anymore, but does listen to Channel 9 during disasters. I haven't seen CHPs plan for power shut-offs, but in case of an emergency always try calling 9-1-1 first. Its always a good idea to have a portable, battery-operated AM/FM radio and fresh batteries. If you listen to the radio in your car, do not run the engine inside the garage. All combustion engines should only be used outside. If you have a license, Amateur Radio (ham radio) operators are active in the power shut-off areas.
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, Sean Donelan wrote:
- Will this affect cellphone service? [...] Remember, Cable and DSL VOIP and in-home wireless phones need electric power to operate. There are fewer and fewer copper-fed POTS lines with power from the telephone central office.
Thanks to the person for correcting me. If you use WiFi or Pico-cell repeaters in your home or office building for mobile phone service, they will likely not work during power shut-offs. I was referring only to cellular service from cell towers on you mobile phones and mobile devices. Non-experts in RF cellular technology may not always know which transmission technology their cell phone is using at any particular location. The mobile phone will usually switch to other avaiable signals. But you might be using a pico-cell or repeater in a building because there are no other cellular signals. In those cases, you won't have cellphone service.
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, at 22:26, Sean Donelan wrote:
- Will this affect cellphone service?
Generally no because this is a power shutoff, without other disaster damage. All major switching offices have backup generators for 24 to 72 hours and nearly all cell towers and outside plant have backup batteries for 4 to 8 hours and/or backup generators. Service providers should be able to re-charge batteries and refill generator tanks throughout the power shut-off. Of course, if there is some other disaster during this time, there would be less resiliance in the network.
In a Previous e-mail:
Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.
So, during a Power shut-off because of wild*fire* risk, operators are supposed to be able to re-charge batteries and supply generators with fuel (I suppose diesel, regular gas being even worse) in the affected areas ? Did I understand things wrong ? I don't have an issue with shutting down power preventively in order to reduce an already high risk, but pretending that other people will keep their electricity-dependent equipment up, especially by providing flamable stuff - isn't this a huge WTF ?
Radu, The fire risk is from electrical transmission lines, not from end users of electrical power. The underlying problem is that the State’s rules for line separation were ill-considered, making it possible for high-enough winds to cause “line slapping” and the resultant arcing that ignite fires. There is no reason to think that end users are of any particular risk, and fuel delivery during a preemptive outage wouldn’t be impaired, because roads will remain open. So, nobody need pretend anything. It’s just business as usual, until a fire actually starts. -mel
On Oct 9, 2019, at 10:52 PM, Radu-Adrian Feurdean <nanog@radu-adrian.feurdean.net> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, at 22:26, Sean Donelan wrote:
- Will this affect cellphone service?
Generally no because this is a power shutoff, without other disaster damage. All major switching offices have backup generators for 24 to 72 hours and nearly all cell towers and outside plant have backup batteries for 4 to 8 hours and/or backup generators. Service providers should be able to re-charge batteries and refill generator tanks throughout the power shut-off. Of course, if there is some other disaster during this time, there would be less resiliance in the network.
In a Previous e-mail:
Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.
So, during a Power shut-off because of wild*fire* risk, operators are supposed to be able to re-charge batteries and supply generators with fuel (I suppose diesel, regular gas being even worse) in the affected areas ? Did I understand things wrong ?
I don't have an issue with shutting down power preventively in order to reduce an already high risk, but pretending that other people will keep their electricity-dependent equipment up, especially by providing flamable stuff - isn't this a huge WTF ?
On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, at 08:02, Mel Beckman wrote:
The fire risk is from electrical transmission lines, not from end users of electrical power. The underlying problem is that the State’s rules for line separation were ill-considered, making it possible for high-enough winds to cause “line slapping” and the resultant arcing that ignite fires.
There is no reason to think that end users are of any particular risk, and fuel delivery during a preemptive outage wouldn’t be impaired,
That looks like a situation that you don't often encounter elsewhere (where electricity - distribution, telecom and transport are not very far from one another).
Electrical arcing happens around the country. The difference is that California, through years of unwise restrictions on vegetation control, has millions of acres of dry fuel near these powerlines. In the early 1990s, a series of restrictions were placed on logging in the West to protect the Spotted Owl. As it turned out, nature was more complicated than expected, with owl numbers continuing to decline—even after the California timber harvest plummeted— reportedly due to predation from other raptors. It’s not easy to manipulate Mother Nature :) In the meantime, tree harvests fell below the growth rate in the 1990s, to now one-tenth of what it was in 1988 on Federal lands. Thus the enormous spike in fuel, that is the primary driver behind the massive fires. Those of us who operate data facilities, such as radio vaults, on California mountaintops, have dealt with this problem as a growing threat over decades. I have antennas with melted radomes just from the radiant fire heat a half mile away. We’re constantly fighting the government to control vegetation overgrowth around our sites, and are often prevented from doing so. -mel On Oct 10, 2019, at 12:07 AM, Radu-Adrian Feurdean <nanog@radu-adrian.feurdean.net<mailto:nanog@radu-adrian.feurdean.net>> wrote: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, at 08:02, Mel Beckman wrote: The fire risk is from electrical transmission lines, not from end users of electrical power. The underlying problem is that the State’s rules for line separation were ill-considered, making it possible for high-enough winds to cause “line slapping” and the resultant arcing that ignite fires. There is no reason to think that end users are of any particular risk, and fuel delivery during a preemptive outage wouldn’t be impaired, That looks like a situation that you don't often encounter elsewhere (where electricity - distribution, telecom and transport are not very far from one another).
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019, Radu-Adrian Feurdean wrote:
So, during a Power shut-off because of wild*fire* risk, operators are supposed to be able to re-charge batteries and supply generators with fuel (I suppose diesel, regular gas being even worse) in the affected areas ? Did I understand things wrong ?
I don't have an issue with shutting down power preventively in order to reduce an already high risk, but pretending that other people will keep their electricity-dependent equipment up, especially by providing flamable stuff - isn't this a huge WTF ?
The U.S. transmission grid is highly dependent on long-distance transmission wires passing through lots of dried out forests, brush, etc. The very high-voltage lines have clear-cut areas, the medium and lower voltages lines are less carefully maintained. We love our cheap power generation plants in distant places, such as hydro-dams, large nuclear plants, wind and solar farms, and of course dirty-old coal plants in the desert far away from power consumers in cities and rural areas in between. Yes, I know there are lots of proposals to re-invent the electric grid. Many of the same reasons why Internet companies build big data centers in far away places? The transmission lines also pass through a lot of difficult to reach and monitor terrain, so sparks and wildfires can get a big start before any response. That's also why it will take days to turn the grid back on, because PG&E needs to inspect those lines to make sure they weren't damaged while powered down. Damn squirriels and their gnawing teeth! Small point power sources, such as tower site generators, are usually on non-flamable pads with cleared (gravel, etc) around them. Different risk factors. While wildfires have been started by things as simple as a driver pulling a hot car with a flat tire off the road into dry grass, wildfires caused by power transmission grid damage, malfunction and age are more common. Hence liability judgements, bankruptcy proceedings, and so on...
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.
Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government regulation at the time also put PG&E in the position that they couldn't deliver the electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on what PG&E could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
William Herrin wrote : Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government regulation at the time also put PG&E in the position that they couldn't deliver the electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on what PG&E could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it.
That, among other things, cost Gray Davis the governorship. He was recalled and Arnold Schwarzenegger elected. The campain was called "total recall". Sacramento, home of the Governator. That being said, I'm not sure we can call the mess similar. Ways back when, the political issue was about supply. Michel. TSI Disclaimer: This message and any files or text attached to it are intended only for the recipients named above and contain information that may be confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not forward, copy, use or otherwise disclose this communication or the information contained herein. In the event you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, and then delete all copies of it from your system. Thank you!...
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, William Herrin wrote:
Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government regulation at the time also put PG&E in the position that they couldn't deliver the electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on what PG&E could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it.
Yep, Enron (allegedly) used the California electric grid deregulation rules to arbitrage the system by causing false grid shortages and driving up wholesale electric prices. It caused rolling blackouts throughout the CA ISO region in 2000 and 2001. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/04/us/tapes-show-enron-arranged-plant-shutdo...
Isn't this a topic for an outage list? Or a power grid list? Chuck On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, 5:28 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, William Herrin wrote:
Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government regulation at the time also put PG&E in the position that they couldn't deliver the electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on what PG&E could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it.
Yep, Enron (allegedly) used the California electric grid deregulation rules to arbitrage the system by causing false grid shortages and driving up wholesale electric prices.
It caused rolling blackouts throughout the CA ISO region in 2000 and 2001.
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/04/us/tapes-show-enron-arranged-plant-shutdo...
The National Weather Service forcast changed a little this afternoon, with a later onset of high-winds this evening/early morning hours. But like surfers on Florida coasts before a hurricane hits, some California folks are saying they don't see any wind -now-. Of course, the forcast is about the future. But future weather fronts sometimes go north or go south, and meteorlogists' forecasts change. Network related complaints with the California public safety power shut-offs. It appears utilities and some local government web sites do not have enough capacity to handle the public seeking information about the blackouts. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/us/pge-shut-off-power-outage.html PG&E’s website was down for many people, right when they needed it. On Wednesday morning, Pacific Gas & Electric customers across Northern California said they were frustrated by difficulties getting information about blackouts and when power might be restored. Many blamed the utility for cutting power before they believed it was really necessary. [...] The utility’s website was working only intermittently — something Ms. Bennyi mentioned, too.
On 10/9/19 2:15 PM, William Herrin wrote:
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com <mailto:sean@donelan.com>> wrote:
Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.
Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government regulation at the time also put PG&E in the position that they couldn't deliver the electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on what PG&E could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it.
No. Mike
Regards, Bill Herrin
-- William Herrin bill@herrin.us <mailto:bill@herrin.us> https://bill.herrin.us/
Sean, You might be thinking of the Western U.S. Energy Crisis of 2000 and 2001, also known as the Enron Debacle. Indeed PG&E’s hands were tied via regulation while Enron, “The Smartest Guys in the Room”, cheated the market, electrical customers, and investors out of billions of dollars. The crisis was triggered by partial deregulation legislation instituted in 1996 by the California Legislature (AB 1890). Enron exploited this deregulation to steal wealth via economic withholding and inflated price bidding in California's spot markets. In the meantime, PG&E (and SCE) were still fully regulated, and thus unable to react. An amazing NANOG irony from the Enron disaster was that Switch Networks in Las Vegas bought up the original Enron data center for pennies on the dollar. I became one of their earliest customers. Following Enron’s bankruptcy, Rob Roy bought Enron's mammoth (for the time) DC in an auction attended only by Rob, for less than a million bucks. Eventually Switch expanded to control the biggest data center complex in the world, and paved the way for companies like Google and Amazon to build their own hyperscale DCs. -mel On Oct 10, 2019, at 9:53 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com<mailto:mike@mtcc.com>> wrote: On 10/9/19 2:15 PM, William Herrin wrote: On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com<mailto:sean@donelan.com>> wrote: Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas. Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government regulation at the time also put PG&E in the position that they couldn't deliver the electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on what PG&E could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it. No. Mike Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us<mailto:bill@herrin.us> https://bill.herrin.us/
Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.
not exactly the diablo winds are way north in the state. but much of the power for the big metros is bought from the hydros in the northwest and has to come on lines through the windy area. for some years, pg&e traded short term profits for long term risk by not clearing the lines. their long term risk cost lives, jillions in property and other damage last fire season. now pg&e is in a severe liability pickle and madly trying to shovel kitty litter over it. the high risk is putting stockholders and profit before public safety and service. randy
On 10/10/19 10:40 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas. not exactly
the diablo winds are way north in the state. but much of the power for the big metros is bought from the hydros in the northwest and has to come on lines through the windy area.
for some years, pg&e traded short term profits for long term risk by not clearing the lines. their long term risk cost lives, jillions in property and other damage last fire season.
now pg&e is in a severe liability pickle and madly trying to shovel kitty litter over it.
the high risk is putting stockholders and profit before public safety and service.
It's also pretty clear that this is revenge pr0n for us getting all upset for them burning down paradise. I'm fairly certain that tech can help this problem along significantly, but that might cut into e-staff bonuses. https://wildfiremitigation.tees.tamus.edu/faqs/other-monitoring-benefits Mike
Reminds me of Enron days. On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 2:06 PM Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 10/10/19 10:40 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas. not exactly
the diablo winds are way north in the state. but much of the power for the big metros is bought from the hydros in the northwest and has to come on lines through the windy area.
for some years, pg&e traded short term profits for long term risk by not clearing the lines. their long term risk cost lives, jillions in property and other damage last fire season.
now pg&e is in a severe liability pickle and madly trying to shovel kitty litter over it.
the high risk is putting stockholders and profit before public safety and service.
It's also pretty clear that this is revenge pr0n for us getting all upset for them burning down paradise.
I'm fairly certain that tech can help this problem along significantly, but that might cut into e-staff bonuses.
https://wildfiremitigation.tees.tamus.edu/faqs/other-monitoring-benefits
Mike
AT&T statement: Like all PG&E customers, we are also affected by this power shutdown. Overall our network continues to perform well and is operating at more than 97% of normal. We are aware that service for some customers may be affected by this event and are working as quickly as possible to deploy additional generators and recovery equipment. We appreciate our customer’s patience. T-Mobile statement: The T-Mobile network is holding up well during the ongoing PG&E and SCE safety power shut offs in California. We are seeing a small number of sites down in some of the areas affected by the power shut off. Our response teams are working to get sites back up and running as quickly as possible. We understand that service disruptions are an inconvenience to our customers and we appreciate their patience during this event. Verizon: Verizon spokeswoman Jeannine Brew Braggs said the company can serve customers "indefinitely" until commercial power is restored. She attributed that to the generators and backup batteries on-site at the majority of its cell towers and other locations. Brew Braggs said the company can refuel the generators to keep them running. I'm still looking for statements from Sprint and US Cellular.
Comcast statement: Hi. Parts of our network that connect to your Xfinity service may be in areas where the commercial power is off leading to a disruption. Once power is fully restored to those parts of the network, and it is safe to do so, we will restore service ASAP.
A pre-announced power shut-down is a bit like an open-book disaster exam. If a city wasn't prepared for a blackout, its going to be a lot worse after a major earthquake (or other catastrophe) hits. PG&E CEO Bill Johnson admitted during a Thursday evening press conference that the utility thoroughly botched its Public Safety Power Shutoff, apologizing to customers. [...] Johnson also apologized for all the technical problems with the PG&E website and promised to get them right next time. “Our website crashed several times. Our maps are inconsistent and maybe in correct. Our call centers were overloaded,” said Johnson. “To put it simply, we were not adequately prepared to support the operational event.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/11/pge-shut-down-power-too... [...] PG&E says the site was never completely inaccessible, but that it was slow to load amid heavy traffic. PG&E spokesman Paul Doherty said the utility doubled its server capacity in advance of the outages but that the traffic levels were eight times what PG&E expected and slowed the site significantly. He said he did not know exactly how many people had tried to visit the site. Doherty said the utility made efforts to inform affected customers over email, text and phone calls so they would know whether they were likely to be in the outage zone. The company says it has since addressed the issues with its website. [...]
I just hope the next fire is not sparked by a diesel generator that is running because commercial power is off. On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 3:48 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
AT&T statement:
Like all PG&E customers, we are also affected by this power shutdown. Overall our network continues to perform well and is operating at more than 97% cause
of normal. We are aware that service for some customers may be
affected by this event and are working as quickly as possible to deploy additional generators and recovery equipment. We appreciate our customer’s patience.
T-Mobile statement:
The T-Mobile network is holding up well during the ongoing PG&E and SCE safety power shut offs in California. We are seeing a small number of sites down in some of the areas affected by the power shut off.
Our response teams are working to get sites back up and running as quickly as possible. We understand that service disruptions are an inconvenience to our customers and we appreciate their patience during this event.
Verizon:
Verizon spokeswoman Jeannine Brew Braggs said the company can serve customers "indefinitely" until commercial power is restored. She attributed that to the generators and backup batteries on-site at the majority of its cell towers and other locations. Brew Braggs said the company can refuel the generators to keep them running.
I'm still looking for statements from Sprint and US Cellular.
Sean, A diesel generator sparking a fire is extremely unlikely. A diesel generator by code must have a clear, nonflammable, area around it, and a spark arrestor on the exhaust to protect against burning particles in the exhaust. Diesel generators are not even a listed cause according to the National Wildfire Coordinating Group: https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/publications/pms412.pdf Let’s not go making up fantastical monsters. There are plenty of real monsters to go around :) -mel On Oct 10, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com<mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com>> wrote: I just hope the next fire is not sparked by a diesel generator that is running because commercial power is off. On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 3:48 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com<mailto:sean@donelan.com>> wrote: AT&T statement: Like all PG&E customers, we are also affected by this power shutdown. Overall our network continues to perform well and is operating at more than 97% cause of normal. We are aware that service for some customers may be affected by this event and are working as quickly as possible to deploy additional generators and recovery equipment. We appreciate our customer’s patience. T-Mobile statement: The T-Mobile network is holding up well during the ongoing PG&E and SCE safety power shut offs in California. We are seeing a small number of sites down in some of the areas affected by the power shut off. Our response teams are working to get sites back up and running as quickly as possible. We understand that service disruptions are an inconvenience to our customers and we appreciate their patience during this event. Verizon: Verizon spokeswoman Jeannine Brew Braggs said the company can serve customers "indefinitely" until commercial power is restored. She attributed that to the generators and backup batteries on-site at the majority of its cell towers and other locations. Brew Braggs said the company can refuel the generators to keep them running. I'm still looking for statements from Sprint and US Cellular.
I have an alternative view. the more generators are running, the more trucks semt to refuel the tanks, the more moving parts, the more likely an accident is prone to happen somewhere. It's thr same reason you turn your vehicles engine off when you fill up at the gas station. Diesel doesn't combust easily without conpression, but I'm pretty sure you can find incidents where diesel engines catch fire. maybe the roof of a datacenter is not a risk factor, but in thinking remote antennas on the top of a mountain anything can happen. On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 8:52 PM Mel Beckman <mel@beckman.org> wrote:
Sean,
A diesel generator sparking a fire is extremely unlikely. A diesel generator by code must have a clear, nonflammable, area around it, and a spark arrestor on the exhaust to protect against burning particles in the exhaust. Diesel generators are not even a listed cause according to the National Wildfire Coordinating Group:
https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/publications/pms412.pdf
Let’s not go making up fantastical monsters. There are plenty of real monsters to go around :)
-mel
On Oct 10, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
I just hope the next fire is not sparked by a diesel generator that is running because commercial power is off.
On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 3:48 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
AT&T statement:
Like all PG&E customers, we are also affected by this power shutdown. Overall our network continues to perform well and is operating at more than 97% cause
of normal. We are aware that service for some customers may be
affected by this event and are working as quickly as possible to deploy additional generators and recovery equipment. We appreciate our customer’s patience.
T-Mobile statement:
The T-Mobile network is holding up well during the ongoing PG&E and SCE safety power shut offs in California. We are seeing a small number of sites down in some of the areas affected by the power shut off.
Our response teams are working to get sites back up and running as quickly as possible. We understand that service disruptions are an inconvenience to our customers and we appreciate their patience during this event.
Verizon:
Verizon spokeswoman Jeannine Brew Braggs said the company can serve customers "indefinitely" until commercial power is restored. She attributed that to the generators and backup batteries on-site at the majority of its cell towers and other locations. Brew Braggs said the company can refuel the generators to keep them running.
I'm still looking for statements from Sprint and US Cellular.
On 10/10/19 8:46 PM, Javier J wrote:
I have an alternative view. the more generators are running, the more trucks semt to refuel the tanks, the more moving parts, the more likely an accident is prone to happen somewhere. It's thr same reason you turn your vehicles engine off when you fill up at the gas station.
Diesel doesn't combust easily without conpression, but I'm pretty sure you can find incidents where diesel engines catch fire. maybe the roof of a datacenter is not a risk factor, but in thinking remote antennas on the top of a mountain anything can happen.
When I was between jobs in IT, I worked as a security guard for a year. During that year, the company I worked for supplied on-prem security for a bankrupt casino at Lake Tahoe. When one of the cell phone companies requested access to their equipment located on the roof of the parking garage (space they leased) the request went all the way to the Court. The reason for access? They ran the electronics on bottled propane (NOT mains power AC) and they needed to swap full tanks for the empties. This was several months into my stint on that site. Not all generators run on diesel, I learned.
request went all the way to the Court. The reason for access? They ran the electronics on bottled propane (NOT mains power AC) and they needed to swap full tanks for the empties. This was several months into my stint on that site. Not all generators run on diesel, I learned.
You can drive a gasoline generator with natural gas and propane, there is just less energy so it takes more of those fuels to get the same energy output. There are also fuel cells that take LPG. Was this a really tiny microcell? I wouldn't think they could run for months on bottled LPG if there is any kind of real load at the site. - Ethan
On 10/11/19 8:01 AM, Ethan O'Toole wrote:
request went all the way to the Court. The reason for access? They ran the electronics on bottled propane (NOT mains power AC) and they needed to swap full tanks for the empties. This was several months into my stint on that site. Not all generators run on diesel, I learned.
You can drive a gasoline generator with natural gas and propane, there is just less energy so it takes more of those fuels to get the same energy output.
There are also fuel cells that take LPG.
Was this a really tiny microcell? I wouldn't think they could run for months on bottled LPG if there is any kind of real load at the site.
- Ethan
Not a tiny microcell. The casino in question is located in Incline Village, on the shore of Lake Tahoe and in prime ski country. The downside of ski country is that you have fairly frequent power outages in winter due to weather, plus the long haul through mountains of fair capacity transmission lines. Now I could be mistaken, and the propane was for a stand-by generator.
participants (13)
-
Ca By -
Chuck Church -
Ethan O'Toole -
Fred Baker -
Javier J -
Mel Beckman -
Michael Thomas -
Michel Py -
Radu-Adrian Feurdean -
Randy Bush -
Sean Donelan -
Stephen Satchell -
William Herrin