-----Original Message----- From: Karl Denninger [mailto:karl@Denninger.Net] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:26 AM To: Chris Mauritz; 'Sheryl Chapin'; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Lawsuit threat against RBL users
The problem with this is that someone, sooner or later, is going to take a run at people trying to set up what amounts to a set of contractual requirements that exceed legal requirements - and then enforce them network wide.
The collusive aspect of this is downright scary, especially when coupled with threats of depeering, active denial of service attacks, etc.
*shrug* If I am an ISP, I'm free to have whatever AUP I want. IF clients don't like the AUP, they are free to shop elsewhere. I don't have the ability to force other ISPs to use my AUP or even a close facsimile...nor is there is a method to enforce your 1984 vision anyway. The net is a loose connection of public and private links. If I own a private link and I decide that I'm going to route you into /dev/null...that's what I'll do. There isn't a thing you can do about it. [snip]
There are a lot of "questionable" things that this industry does, but IMHO this one is near or at the top of the list of things I'd talk to my counsel about....
Knock yourself out. Be sure to let us know what your legal eagle has to say on the matter. Chris
Chris Mauritz writes:
If I am an ISP, I'm free to have whatever AUP I want. IF clients don't like the AUP, they are free to shop elsewhere. I don't have the ability to force other ISPs to use my AUP or even a close facsimile...nor is there is a method to enforce your 1984 vision anyway. The net is a loose connection of public and private links. If I own a private link and I decide that I'm going to route you into /dev/null...that's what I'll do. There isn't a thing you can do about it.
I can lobby government to pass laws protecting my Rights from being abused by commercial interests. Those rights can be included in constitutions and Bills of Rights thereafter extending protections I expect everywhere else to new media and emmerging technologies. Don't Tread on Me... Great motto from the great American Revolution. You remember... the one that secured the rights and freedoms of millions of people and has served as an example to the world, eh? Bob Allisat Free Community Network _ bob@fcn.net . http://fcn.net http://fcn.net/allisat _ http://fcn.net/draft
On Thu, Feb 07, 2036 at 02:12:47AM -0500, Bob Allisat wrote:
laws protecting my Rights from being abused by commercial interests. Those rights can be included in constitutions and Bills of Rights thereafter extending protections I expect everywhere else to new media and emmerging technologies.
Don't Tread on Me... Great motto from the great American Revolution. You remember...
God, I really need to stop replying to Bobby, but... I find it amusing that a Canadian chooses to preach to us based on the laws that protect US citizens instead of the laws that protect him. Allisat lives in Toronto, last time I checked. (I'll shut up now, since I have been guilty of lowering the S:N ratio of this list several times recently...) -- Steve Sobol [sjsobol@nacs.net] Part-time Support Droid [support@nacs.net] NACS Spaminator [abuse@nacs.net] Spotted on a bumper sticker: "Possum. The other white meat."
Has anyone ever been removed from NANOG? Anyone want to take vote to start? All of this guy's messages posted to NANOG have been of a political and non-operational nature whic is way off topic based on my understanding of the list's charter. In the meantime I have added him to my personal filters.
If Jim Fleming didn't get removed, we have little hope. Karl
Has anyone ever been removed from NANOG? Anyone want to take vote to start? All of this guy's messages posted to NANOG have been of a political and non-operational nature whic is way off topic based on my understanding of the list's charter.
In the meantime I have added him to my personal filters.
Well its interesting that I would receive a private Email from merit people asking that I don't cross post a message. It was a single operational message and it was an error on my part. Yes xposting is bad..... However my response the person was that we really should worry about others first..... I have no hope of Merit enforcing the lists AUP :( Procmail rules jmbrown@ihighway.net At 12:42 PM 11/23/98 -0800, you wrote:
If Jim Fleming didn't get removed, we have little hope.
Karl
Has anyone ever been removed from NANOG? Anyone want to take vote to start? All of this guy's messages posted to NANOG have been of a political and non-operational nature whic is way off topic based on my understanding of the list's charter.
In the meantime I have added him to my personal filters.
Speaking only for myself, so long as the list remains un-moderated, I belive personal filtering is the way to go. If nothing else, it will encourage a general increase in procmail clue. 8) On 23-Nov-98 at 20:52, Wayne (wayne@domain.net) wrote:
Has anyone ever been removed from NANOG? Anyone want to take vote to start? All of this guy's messages posted to NANOG have been of a political and non-operational nature whic is way off topic based on my understanding of the list's charter.
In the meantime I have added him to my personal filters.
-- Rusty Zickefoose | The most exciting phrase to hear in science, rusty@cw.net | the one that heralds new discoveries, is not | "Eureka!", but "That's funny ..." | -- Isaac Asimov
At 07:12 AM 2/7/36 +0000, Bob Allisat wrote:
I can lobby government to pass laws protecting my Rights from being abused by commercial interests. Those rights can
Oh, Gawd... Who let the kook back in? ------------------------------------------------------------------ ML.ORG is gone. Check out http://www.EZ-IP.Net - It's *FREE* ------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your *FREE* Parked Domain account at http://www.EZ-Hosting.Com ------------------------------------------------------------------ John Fraizer | __ _ | The System Administrator | / / (_)__ __ ____ __ | The choice mailto:John.Fraizer@EnterZone.Net | / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / | of a GNU http://www.EnterZone.Net/ | /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ | Generation PGP Key fingerprint = 7DB6 1CA2 DAA6 43DA 3AAF 44CD 258C 3D7E B425 81A8
How about if I sue you for screwing with my privacy and for sending me harassing annoying crap that I didn't solicit in the first place. Talk about internet rights, well pal my right to choose whom I want to do business with supersedes your right to dictate to me that I have to do business with you when you force it on me. Did I make my point Henry R. Linneweh -------------------- Everyone has a right to be stupid. please don't abuse the privilege.:) -------------------- John Fraizer wrote:
At 07:12 AM 2/7/36 +0000, Bob Allisat wrote:
I can lobby government to pass laws protecting my Rights from being abused by commercial interests. Those rights can
Oh, Gawd... Who let the kook back in?
------------------------------------------------------------------ ML.ORG is gone. Check out http://www.EZ-IP.Net - It's *FREE* ------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your *FREE* Parked Domain account at http://www.EZ-Hosting.Com ------------------------------------------------------------------ John Fraizer | __ _ | The System Administrator | / / (_)__ __ ____ __ | The choice mailto:John.Fraizer@EnterZone.Net | / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / | of a GNU http://www.EnterZone.Net/ | /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ | Generation PGP Key fingerprint = 7DB6 1CA2 DAA6 43DA 3AAF 44CD 258C 3D7E B425 81A8
Well, regardless if you've made .your. point, you certainly made .his. point. Jamie On Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 02:55:01AM -0800, Henry Linneweh wrote:
How about if I sue you for screwing with my privacy and for sending me harassing annoying crap that I didn't solicit in the first place.
Talk about internet rights, well pal my right to choose whom I want to do business with supersedes your right to dictate to me that I have to do business with you when you force it on me.
Did I make my point
Henry R. Linneweh -------------------- Everyone has a right to be stupid. please don't abuse the privilege.:) --------------------
John Fraizer wrote:
At 07:12 AM 2/7/36 +0000, Bob Allisat wrote:
I can lobby government to pass laws protecting my Rights from being abused by commercial interests. Those rights can
Oh, Gawd... Who let the kook back in?
------------------------------------------------------------------ ML.ORG is gone. Check out http://www.EZ-IP.Net - It's *FREE* ------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your *FREE* Parked Domain account at http://www.EZ-Hosting.Com ------------------------------------------------------------------ John Fraizer | __ _ | The System Administrator | / / (_)__ __ ____ __ | The choice mailto:John.Fraizer@EnterZone.Net | / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / | of a GNU http://www.EnterZone.Net/ | /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ | Generation PGP Key fingerprint = 7DB6 1CA2 DAA6 43DA 3AAF 44CD 258C 3D7E B425 81A8
-- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s+:+ a--(?) C++++ UB++++ P+ L--(++) E-- W++(--) N++ O? K w(---) O?>+ M?>+ V PS+ PE+ Y+ PGP->++ t+(*) 5+++ X++ R++ tv+ b+ DI++++ D++ G e>+ h--- r+++ y+++** ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
On Thu, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:10:03AM -0500, Chris Mauritz wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Karl Denninger [mailto:karl@Denninger.Net] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:26 AM To: Chris Mauritz; 'Sheryl Chapin'; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Lawsuit threat against RBL users
The problem with this is that someone, sooner or later, is going to take a run at people trying to set up what amounts to a set of contractual requirements that exceed legal requirements - and then enforce them network wide.
The collusive aspect of this is downright scary, especially when coupled with threats of depeering, active denial of service attacks, etc.
*shrug*
If I am an ISP, I'm free to have whatever AUP I want. IF clients don't like the AUP, they are free to shop elsewhere. I don't have the ability to force other ISPs to use my AUP or even a close facsimile...nor is there is a method to enforce your 1984 vision anyway. The net is a loose connection of public and private links. If I own a private link and I decide that I'm going to route you into /dev/null...that's what I'll do. There isn't a thing you can do about it.
You're right, as far as that goes. However, when an industry adopts what amount to consistent policies, and those policies reach beyond your own equipment and services (ie: "if you spam from *anywhere*, even if you don't mention our service, even if you don't drop-box onto our service, we will shut down your connection to us") then IMHO you're asking for it. Again, you can do anything you want as an individual company. In this business you can even try to do nearly anythnig you want as a group, since holding together a "cartel" is darn difficult. But if you actually achieve consensus like this, and DO hold it together, there can be trouble.
[snip]
There are a lot of "questionable" things that this industry does, but IMHO this one is near or at the top of the list of things I'd talk to my counsel about....
Knock yourself out. Be sure to let us know what your legal eagle has to say on the matter.
Chris
Why would I take this to my "legal eagle" Chris? I have no stake in this debate, but I believe that it is a good idea to point out that its plain dangerous to play in these waters, and that those of you who want to should be the ones talking to THEIR legal eagles. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization.
participants (11)
-
Bob Allisat -
Chris Mauritz -
Henry Linneweh -
Jamie Norwood -
John Fraizer -
John M. Brown -
Karl Denninger -
Karl Mueller -
Rusty Zickefoose -
Steven J. Sobol -
Wayne